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On April 22 2011 13:55 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:53 thedz wrote:On April 22 2011 13:46 dANiELcanuck wrote:On April 22 2011 13:41 tychusfuddley wrote:
One question? How many viewers it will take for IPL 2 to happen?. Is 10,000 viewers to low?. I think they need at least 50,000 to 60,000 live viewers for IPL 2 to happen. Probably has a lot to do with VOD views as well, live numbers aren't everything. It also has to compete for viewers with NASL and other tournies/streamers going on during the live broadcast. IPL blew me away today, I wish I hadn't already been spoilered the results! IIRC, IGN have said they are committed to a IPL2. So that's already locked down. Plus expecting 50 to 60k viewers is ridiculous. TSL3's opening weekend had like 50k and has hit 40k the rest of the time and thats something people have been waiting for. No way IPL will get that many viewers off the bat.
That many viewers is ambitious but they truly delivered with their production and casting today. If the players bring great and entertaining matches than it's something that is achievable by the time the second season starts.
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I agree with the sentiment that IPL is doing what NASL wanted to do.
But as it is, NASL has a long road ahead of them. What they are doing is much bigger of a task than IPL. The way IPL has done it is much smater though, started small without a lot of hype then grow it.
It isn't like NASL is terrible, but IPL, IMO, will have greater success, just due to quality alone. Although I'm quite content watching just the games, a lot of people need more to draw them in, especially those who aren't enthusiasts already.
But the internet has a thing for quality, make great content and people will come. NASL already has a large following, if they take community feedback seriously then they are only going to get bigger.
In the future I think NASL will have to adopt the IGN approach, of free Vods w/ advertising and better production quality. But for now just fixing the video/sound issues and improving the casting will go a long way
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On April 22 2011 14:11 2WeaK wrote:Not reading through the whole thing... But just going on the website, I saw "First two days of IPL1 will be ad-free!" >.> Just saying. So don't rejoice too quickly about IPL being ad free. 
Who cares, though? It's free and it's awesome, so bring on the commercials.. not any different than tuning into any other sport. I hope all tournaments all eventually follow this business model.
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On April 22 2011 13:35 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:26 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:16 Defacer wrote:On April 22 2011 13:10 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:01 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:56 darmousseh wrote:On April 22 2011 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:47 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 12:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:31 Terranist wrote:
true fans I find this phrase really obnoxious. Am I alone in that? it does seem a little obnoxious, but let's be honest here. i watched the first day of IPL and you casted like you were selling starcraft 2 to a bunch of console gamers. i don't have an issue with that because you're bringing a bunch of people into esports but at the same time alienating those of us that really love it enough to stay up till 4 am watching live GSL - the "true fans" Not really. Some of you are alienated, but not all. The noisy few will always come out in opposition of play-by-play casting, but it's the silent majority that are more important. Every caster alienates somebody, it's not worth worrying about and in this case, the IPL was not aimed squarely at TL's demographic anyway, yet still managed to attract and SUSTAIN a significant viewer count from them, so that alone is proof the concept is worth pursuing. The negativity really is rather depressing if ya take it too seriously and it seems some people are more interesting in tearing down the efforts of others all in the name of 'true fandom'. A true fan would celebrate anything that moves eSports forward, I would think. I agree with total biscuit 100%, this kind of league put by IGN is the perfect way to introduce people to sc2 and it's entertaining to listen to. There are plenty of videos with game commentary as opposed to casting, but a tournament is supposed to be about hype and excitement. We can analyze the games later. Watch the MLB, during the season the commentators discuss the game, but the cast always needs someone to bring excitement. Once the world series hits, most of the commentating goes away and it's pure casting because people want to watch something exciting. The majority of people watching are not hardcore players, just ask day9. Good job total biscuit  mmmnmmmnmm I'm getting this werid feeling like we're getting into the same debate of husky vs day9 which really makes me :/ because I like husky and I feel like I'm going against him. just like the day9 vs husky debate, you can still be in both camps. everyone will however find a preference for one or the either. IPL is seemingly being presented merely as training wheels for real SC2. zero analysis, no player thoughts after games, just lots of 'violence' and graphical fluff with very little focus on strategy or tactics. IGN is clearly focusing on a different demographic that will hopefully funnel a ton of people into the scene the same way husky did. strictly judging after today, i would rather watch NASL for the most part. I prefer NASL as well, simply because of the caliber of play. I think the NASL will really start to heat up as the players compete for the first and second seeds and enter "must-win" situations. But I have to admit, there's a lot of little things that the IPL is doing well that the NASL should pick up on. Good production is all about the details. keep in mind that these games were played long ago in order to give the production team enough time to create these pretty overlays and the consequence is that the results are leaked and the entire league spoiled. i wouldn't dare open the JTV chat while watching if i bother to even keep watching. NASL has technical issues that will be ironed out over time but it is a fully functioning league that the purists can get behind and support. i really want it to succeed because they have the right formula when it comes to esports. Maybe I have access to different information than you but as a huge starcraft nerd(i loved those qxschool and stik casts and ancient day9 dailies where he never gets excited about anything) I think your complaints about their being fundamental issues with the IPL are more than just a little ridiculous. I'm not that big on the casting but regarding the games or the player pool or the prizes, have you even been paying attention? These were the dudes they could get out to the studio for the production on the test run. There will be actual qualifiers in future seasons which strikes me as something you SHOULD be supporting as a "true fan" because it promotes players who can demonstrably produce results; no subjectivity or guesswork is needed. The NASL system's qualifier system is extremely limited, even for the people it brings in in season 2. Regarding the spoilers, it's a major issue. This was pointed out to IGN.Alex on SomethingAwful and he had this to say: "The guest account thing where you can schedule times for the players and then go into the files and edit their names to the correct name is great if you're on the same kind of timetable as the TSL. We're wanting to move a little faster and provide more then 2 days of content a week, so it's harder to work that in. It's absolutely something we considered though, and may revisit that idea in the future. It's without a doubt the most secure way to hide results. We will likely be using cloaked maps though next time."
spoiler is a massive issue. i find it completely unacceptable that the results for an entire tournament are leaked before the first game even airs. this would never happen to any tournament that takes itself seriously. what happened in IPL is entirely a fundamental error.
IPL is also presenting itself wrong by making the players into generic nerds fighting each other like robots. the players themselves give no thoughts or input throughout day 1. no interviews, no discussions, only casters like TB and wheat typecasting them into something that casual gamers can relate with.
as a spectator, i like to know more about how player 'X' would have reacted to situation 'Y' and if he regrets playing build 'Z'. that stuff is critical to not only helping people appreciate such a deep game, but giving insight into what makes these players so supremely talented.
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The only thing IPL has over NASL is production value.
The casters aren't as good. The matchups aren't as good. They don't have the stat tracking, standings, win rates vs different races, player profiles, team profiles, etc...
I'm surprised people care so much about things like the background music and the wall behind the casters. Why is that more important than the infrastructure housed on the NASL website and the quality of the matches.
They have some hiccups because they have a less experienced production team, but that can easily and will improve with time.
This hype over IPL is just the spillover of the disappointed from NASL. People are just mad about NASL. Same reason people thought Dreamhack was greatest thing on the face of this Earth; it came after MLG Dallas.
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On April 22 2011 14:40 jiveturkey wrote:
The only thing IPL has over NASL is production value.
The casters aren't as good. The matchups aren't as good. They don't have the stat tracking, standings, win rates vs different races, player profiles, team profiles, etc...
I'm surprised people care so much about things like the background music and the wall behind the casters. Why is that more important than the infrastructure housed on the NASL website and the quality of the matches.
They have some hiccups because they have a less experienced production team, but that can easily and will improve with time.
This hype over IPL is just the spillover of the disappointed from NASL. People are just mad about NASL. Same reason people thought Dreamhack was greatest thing on the face of this Earth; it came after MLG Dallas.
Its not that people care so much about the production value, its that the production value is that good. Its probably the best production we have seen so far.
And Dreamhack was great and deserved the praise it got.
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On April 22 2011 14:40 jiveturkey wrote:
The only thing IPL has over NASL is production value.
The casters aren't as good. The matchups aren't as good. They don't have the stat tracking, standings, win rates vs different races, player profiles, team profiles, etc...
I'm surprised people care so much about things like the background music and the wall behind the casters. Why is that more important than the infrastructure housed on the NASL website and the quality of the matches.
They have some hiccups because they have a less experienced production team, but that can easily and will improve with time.
This hype over IPL is just the spillover of the disappointed from NASL. People are just mad about NASL. Same reason people thought Dreamhack was greatest thing on the face of this Earth; it came after MLG Dallas.
Not really, this has already been addressed previously...
The casters are fine, it comes down to preference, I'd say it's a toss up as to which casting setup you like more and which casters you like more.
The matchups are fairly good, almost everyone in the IPL is also in the NASL and the people who aren't were barely left out so... Yeah. Sure, we don't get to see Boxer or Nada, so I'll sort of give you that, but considering that this was an introductory tournament meant for NA players, it's not really a huge deal.
Stat tracking, win rates vs different races, player profiles, team profiles... They don't really need the first two right now considering that this is a tournament as opposed to a league/divisional format. As for player profiles, they have rudimentary ones with much better interviews available than those of the NASL.
You act as thought production is not a big deal but you forget that we're talking about the quality of the stream, audio, graphics, stability and accessibility all for free. This is pretty much a base line of what a really good tournament should have.
People praised the quality of the TSL3 and the Reddit Invitational a while back for the same reasons if I'm not mistaken. The first round of the TSL was sort of iffy with pros dropping without much of a fight, but people still praised the shit out of the production quality.
Similarly, Dreamhack was praised because it was great... It's not all spill-over from previous events.
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I'll be more excited when they do later seasons with bigger prizes, better players, and another caster.
It looks great so far though.
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I like the IPL casters. I don't know why people act like you can say one caster is better over another as fact, they each have their own strengths
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On April 22 2011 14:40 jiveturkey wrote:
The only thing IPL has over NASL is production value.
The casters aren't as good. The matchups aren't as good. They don't have the stat tracking, standings, win rates vs different races, player profiles, team profiles, etc...
I'm surprised people care so much about things like the background music and the wall behind the casters. Why is that more important than the infrastructure housed on the NASL website and the quality of the matches.
They have some hiccups because they have a less experienced production team, but that can easily and will improve with time.
This hype over IPL is just the spillover of the disappointed from NASL. People are just mad about NASL. Same reason people thought Dreamhack was greatest thing on the face of this Earth; it came after MLG Dallas.
I agree with this. Cool name animations and music only go so far, the actual game quality should be the deciding factor. I'll wait till NASL gets into further rounds before judging.
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its really good aside from the fact that i don't think the player pool is very strong for the most part compared to other top tourneys
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On April 22 2011 12:46 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 12:43 Zeri wrote:On April 22 2011 12:38 DirtYLOu wrote:
IPL >>>>>> NASL
And to think that NASL has SO MUCH more money, and still IPL's production is better... Just cause its shinier does NOT mean its better. IPL cannot compete with the player lineup and the amount of matches NASL has right now. Lets remember why we love starcraft so much. We love the players and the competition! I agree but us from EU can watch it so wtf is the point!!
Blasphemy! I watched it :p
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If it didint have toe tail bee scut from shout crawft it would the bested by no one but the GSL..still have more respect for 100% live lan-esk gaming from korea, but the animations and transitions were flawless.....where was the hype for this???? better than nasl IMO but we have yet to see the live lan stuff from them so i still expect alot
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On April 22 2011 14:36 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:35 Turgid wrote:On April 22 2011 13:26 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:16 Defacer wrote:On April 22 2011 13:10 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:01 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:56 darmousseh wrote:On April 22 2011 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:47 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 12:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
I find this phrase really obnoxious. Am I alone in that?
it does seem a little obnoxious, but let's be honest here. i watched the first day of IPL and you casted like you were selling starcraft 2 to a bunch of console gamers. i don't have an issue with that because you're bringing a bunch of people into esports but at the same time alienating those of us that really love it enough to stay up till 4 am watching live GSL - the "true fans" Not really. Some of you are alienated, but not all. The noisy few will always come out in opposition of play-by-play casting, but it's the silent majority that are more important. Every caster alienates somebody, it's not worth worrying about and in this case, the IPL was not aimed squarely at TL's demographic anyway, yet still managed to attract and SUSTAIN a significant viewer count from them, so that alone is proof the concept is worth pursuing. The negativity really is rather depressing if ya take it too seriously and it seems some people are more interesting in tearing down the efforts of others all in the name of 'true fandom'. A true fan would celebrate anything that moves eSports forward, I would think. I agree with total biscuit 100%, this kind of league put by IGN is the perfect way to introduce people to sc2 and it's entertaining to listen to. There are plenty of videos with game commentary as opposed to casting, but a tournament is supposed to be about hype and excitement. We can analyze the games later. Watch the MLB, during the season the commentators discuss the game, but the cast always needs someone to bring excitement. Once the world series hits, most of the commentating goes away and it's pure casting because people want to watch something exciting. The majority of people watching are not hardcore players, just ask day9. Good job total biscuit mmmnmmmnmm I'm getting this werid feeling like we're getting into the same debate of husky vs day9 which really makes me :/ because I like husky and I feel like I'm going against him. just like the day9 vs husky debate, you can still be in both camps. everyone will however find a preference for one or the either. IPL is seemingly being presented merely as training wheels for real SC2. zero analysis, no player thoughts after games, just lots of 'violence' and graphical fluff with very little focus on strategy or tactics. IGN is clearly focusing on a different demographic that will hopefully funnel a ton of people into the scene the same way husky did. strictly judging after today, i would rather watch NASL for the most part. I prefer NASL as well, simply because of the caliber of play. I think the NASL will really start to heat up as the players compete for the first and second seeds and enter "must-win" situations. But I have to admit, there's a lot of little things that the IPL is doing well that the NASL should pick up on. Good production is all about the details. keep in mind that these games were played long ago in order to give the production team enough time to create these pretty overlays and the consequence is that the results are leaked and the entire league spoiled. i wouldn't dare open the JTV chat while watching if i bother to even keep watching. NASL has technical issues that will be ironed out over time but it is a fully functioning league that the purists can get behind and support. i really want it to succeed because they have the right formula when it comes to esports. Maybe I have access to different information than you but as a huge starcraft nerd(i loved those qxschool and stik casts and ancient day9 dailies where he never gets excited about anything) I think your complaints about their being fundamental issues with the IPL are more than just a little ridiculous. I'm not that big on the casting but regarding the games or the player pool or the prizes, have you even been paying attention? These were the dudes they could get out to the studio for the production on the test run. There will be actual qualifiers in future seasons which strikes me as something you SHOULD be supporting as a "true fan" because it promotes players who can demonstrably produce results; no subjectivity or guesswork is needed. The NASL system's qualifier system is extremely limited, even for the people it brings in in season 2. Regarding the spoilers, it's a major issue. This was pointed out to IGN.Alex on SomethingAwful and he had this to say: "The guest account thing where you can schedule times for the players and then go into the files and edit their names to the correct name is great if you're on the same kind of timetable as the TSL. We're wanting to move a little faster and provide more then 2 days of content a week, so it's harder to work that in. It's absolutely something we considered though, and may revisit that idea in the future. It's without a doubt the most secure way to hide results. We will likely be using cloaked maps though next time." spoiler is a massive issue. i find it completely unacceptable that the results for an entire tournament are leaked before the first game even airs. this would never happen to any tournament that takes itself seriously. what happened in IPL is entirely a fundamental error. IPL is also presenting itself wrong by making the players into generic nerds fighting each other like robots. the players themselves give no thoughts or input throughout day 1. no interviews, no discussions, only casters like TB and wheat typecasting them into something that casual gamers can relate with. as a spectator, i like to know more about how player 'X' would have reacted to situation 'Y' and if he regrets playing build 'Z'. that stuff is critical to not only helping people appreciate such a deep game, but giving insight into what makes these players so supremely talented.
Why is the leaking of results a fundamental error? It was caused by negligence and to say it is a fundamental error means it will happen over and over again because it is due to the way they do things. If they use maps who hide results as well as not accidentally posting the results then it won't happen again. Was it a grave error? Sure it was. But it was in no way fundamental
And actually the insights that you are asking for are in the website.A lot of players are interviewed in the website very professionally. For example, catz were interviewed about his cheeses and why he does it and does he think it takes less skill. A few other players were also asked about what they think of catz's unorthodox style.
In the game today, + Show Spoiler +. By tying the interviews with the game, viewers can understand his mindset in doing so. I think that gives "insight to the players"
Oh and i feel that Dreamhack was the best tournament ever. Awesome games , players, productions, casters and the best HOST ever. Regardless of how MLG Dallas went, praises will still be sung about DH invitational.
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On April 22 2011 12:38 DirtYLOu wrote:
IPL >>>>>> NASL
And to think that NASL has SO MUCH more money, and still IPL's production is better...
Wait what? NASL has more money than IGN? Just because they have a bigger prise pool doesn't mean they have more money. IGN is a huge company that has way more money than NASL.
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Belgium38799 Posts
Too give you a small summary of my thoughts.
1) Pretty awesome quality. Probably the best out there, together with GSL.
2) There are some points where you can work on. But this is a test run season, and the things that I would like you to change seems to be easy to change, like getting another caster. And I heard on SotG you have a pretty solid line-up.
These are my first thoughts. If I have to pay 25$ to support you or the NASL I would probably spend it on you guys. You seem to be professionals.
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There's one major difference between the NASL and the IGN Proleague and that is the casting. Diamond level knowledge solo casting and Grandmaster level knowledge duo casting.
I'd like to see DJ Wheat and TB paired up with good commentators in the future.
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Funny how ppl change... I remember when people were bitching at the NASL for their player selection and the "Lack of Koreans"
I was impressed with TB and the way it looked but the competition doesnt match to that of NASL. The more leagues the better though, just makes it hard for me to watch 2 streams at the same time 
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On April 22 2011 14:33 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 22 2011 13:53 thedz wrote:On April 22 2011 13:46 dANiELcanuck wrote:On April 22 2011 13:41 tychusfuddley wrote:
One question? How many viewers it will take for IPL 2 to happen?. Is 10,000 viewers to low?. I think they need at least 50,000 to 60,000 live viewers for IPL 2 to happen. Probably has a lot to do with VOD views as well, live numbers aren't everything. It also has to compete for viewers with NASL and other tournies/streamers going on during the live broadcast. IPL blew me away today, I wish I hadn't already been spoilered the results! IIRC, IGN have said they are committed to a IPL2. So that's already locked down. Plus expecting 50 to 60k viewers is ridiculous. TSL3's opening weekend had like 50k and has hit 40k the rest of the time and thats something people have been waiting for. No way IPL will get that many viewers off the bat. That many viewers is ambitious but they truly delivered with their production and casting today. If the players bring great and entertaining matches than it's something that is achievable by the time the second season starts.
Maybe it's just cause this is a test run, but I think IGN could be doing a much better job of promoting the tourney. All they have dedicated to the event is a skinny ass banner on the homepage. Basically looks like adspace. Maybe once the league proves itself a little more (off to a good start :D), they'll give it a main tab to draw in the muggles.
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On April 22 2011 14:36 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:35 Turgid wrote:On April 22 2011 13:26 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:16 Defacer wrote:On April 22 2011 13:10 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:01 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:56 darmousseh wrote:On April 22 2011 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:47 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 12:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
I find this phrase really obnoxious. Am I alone in that?
it does seem a little obnoxious, but let's be honest here. i watched the first day of IPL and you casted like you were selling starcraft 2 to a bunch of console gamers. i don't have an issue with that because you're bringing a bunch of people into esports but at the same time alienating those of us that really love it enough to stay up till 4 am watching live GSL - the "true fans" Not really. Some of you are alienated, but not all. The noisy few will always come out in opposition of play-by-play casting, but it's the silent majority that are more important. Every caster alienates somebody, it's not worth worrying about and in this case, the IPL was not aimed squarely at TL's demographic anyway, yet still managed to attract and SUSTAIN a significant viewer count from them, so that alone is proof the concept is worth pursuing. The negativity really is rather depressing if ya take it too seriously and it seems some people are more interesting in tearing down the efforts of others all in the name of 'true fandom'. A true fan would celebrate anything that moves eSports forward, I would think. I agree with total biscuit 100%, this kind of league put by IGN is the perfect way to introduce people to sc2 and it's entertaining to listen to. There are plenty of videos with game commentary as opposed to casting, but a tournament is supposed to be about hype and excitement. We can analyze the games later. Watch the MLB, during the season the commentators discuss the game, but the cast always needs someone to bring excitement. Once the world series hits, most of the commentating goes away and it's pure casting because people want to watch something exciting. The majority of people watching are not hardcore players, just ask day9. Good job total biscuit mmmnmmmnmm I'm getting this werid feeling like we're getting into the same debate of husky vs day9 which really makes me :/ because I like husky and I feel like I'm going against him. just like the day9 vs husky debate, you can still be in both camps. everyone will however find a preference for one or the either. IPL is seemingly being presented merely as training wheels for real SC2. zero analysis, no player thoughts after games, just lots of 'violence' and graphical fluff with very little focus on strategy or tactics. IGN is clearly focusing on a different demographic that will hopefully funnel a ton of people into the scene the same way husky did. strictly judging after today, i would rather watch NASL for the most part. I prefer NASL as well, simply because of the caliber of play. I think the NASL will really start to heat up as the players compete for the first and second seeds and enter "must-win" situations. But I have to admit, there's a lot of little things that the IPL is doing well that the NASL should pick up on. Good production is all about the details. keep in mind that these games were played long ago in order to give the production team enough time to create these pretty overlays and the consequence is that the results are leaked and the entire league spoiled. i wouldn't dare open the JTV chat while watching if i bother to even keep watching. NASL has technical issues that will be ironed out over time but it is a fully functioning league that the purists can get behind and support. i really want it to succeed because they have the right formula when it comes to esports. Maybe I have access to different information than you but as a huge starcraft nerd(i loved those qxschool and stik casts and ancient day9 dailies where he never gets excited about anything) I think your complaints about their being fundamental issues with the IPL are more than just a little ridiculous. I'm not that big on the casting but regarding the games or the player pool or the prizes, have you even been paying attention? These were the dudes they could get out to the studio for the production on the test run. There will be actual qualifiers in future seasons which strikes me as something you SHOULD be supporting as a "true fan" because it promotes players who can demonstrably produce results; no subjectivity or guesswork is needed. The NASL system's qualifier system is extremely limited, even for the people it brings in in season 2. Regarding the spoilers, it's a major issue. This was pointed out to IGN.Alex on SomethingAwful and he had this to say: "The guest account thing where you can schedule times for the players and then go into the files and edit their names to the correct name is great if you're on the same kind of timetable as the TSL. We're wanting to move a little faster and provide more then 2 days of content a week, so it's harder to work that in. It's absolutely something we considered though, and may revisit that idea in the future. It's without a doubt the most secure way to hide results. We will likely be using cloaked maps though next time." spoiler is a massive issue. i find it completely unacceptable that the results for an entire tournament are leaked before the first game even airs. this would never happen to any tournament that takes itself seriously. what happened in IPL is entirely a fundamental error. IPL is also presenting itself wrong by making the players into generic nerds fighting each other like robots. the players themselves give no thoughts or input throughout day 1. no interviews, no discussions, only casters like TB and wheat typecasting them into something that casual gamers can relate with. as a spectator, i like to know more about how player 'X' would have reacted to situation 'Y' and if he regrets playing build 'Z'. that stuff is critical to not only helping people appreciate such a deep game, but giving insight into what makes these players so supremely talented.
You haven't actually been on the IPL website, have you? Or have 80% of the videos just not shown up on your screen? Everything you're asking for is right there.
Also, the spoiler thing is going to be avoided the next round. One round of spoilers against three walk overs in a week? I'll take the spoilers and just ignore the chat >.<
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EPT
