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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 19 2011 08:26 branflakes14 wrote: Sorry for suggesting something completely reasonable then. It's fine that T and P players can suck, but completely unreasonable that Z players can. You're saying Zerg players suck more than Protoss and Zerg atm, and u expect to be taken seriously? oO | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
Even though Zerg has won 2 GSL, nearly 3 (each time it was another Zerg reaching final), we keep hearing since Beta 0.01 that Zerg is the weakest race. Recently, July won the ST tournament, and got into the final of GSL. Ret won the assembly. Idra did well in several tournaments. Dimaga won a lot of games when he was in Korea playing for the GSL WorldCup. Morrow doing great as well. Mondragon nearly beating (2-3) the best European Protoss last week. Stephano an emerging French Zerg (ex war3 player) has won the last 3 Go4sc2 Cup. Protoss on the other hand... Yes there's MC, he won 2 GSL, asides from that ? Nobody. In fact, if it wasn't for MC, no Protoss would have reached the final of the GSL. But if Zerg wants to do better, they will need to macro better. Yes MACRO BETTER.I'm tired of seeing so called Pro Zergs camping with over 3k minerals, no macro hatch, and a 200 food army with 90 drones and 50 roaches. Harassing with speeroaches/overlords + teching to tier3 is the key of this MU. Mark my words, in a few months people will systematically tech to infestors/broodlords or infestors/ultralisks in this MU. Zerg will also do better the day they will realize that Protoss can't have enough gaz to support sentries along HT/colossi (so that banelings in lategame are very good). | ||
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Sceptor87
Canada266 Posts
Look at a BW game. You'd have these beautiful groups of armies all over the place as a Zerg. Mutas up here, Lings there, Hydras off doing their own thing. But that was because of control groups. But in SC2 you can box everything, Ctrl1 it together, then just attack move and expect to win. If anything I think the control group setup is deceptive. It makes people think they can just A move to the win, when in reality they should be manipulating 3 different fronts at the same time. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:24 loveeholicce wrote: You're saying Zerg players suck more than Protoss and Zerg atm, and u expect to be taken seriously? oO Please, explain to me why you think a claim like that can't be taken seriously, especially considering all I did was reverse exactly a claim someone else made. | ||
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:21 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: make roaches 1 food again. hahaha no but seriously. zerg is suppose to dominate the late game. but protoss units are so cost effective late game. ...Zerg isn't suppose to dominate the late game. If one race is suppose to have the best late game army that would be the Protoss. Theres no reason for a Zerg max army to be able to fight with a Protoss maxed army. Given that Toss has the most divergent Tech Tree, their race SHOULD reap the benefits of combining those prongs in to a Very powerful army. Now, im not trying to downplay how hard ZvP is right now. Just that Zerg armies shouldn't be able to take out maxed toss armies. (especially considering the fact that around about 10 avg supply of a Zerg's max will be tied to Queens our maxed army is actually has less attacking units than other races) | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:32 branflakes14 wrote: Please, explain to me why you think a claim like that can't be taken seriously, especially considering all I did was reverse exactly a claim someone else made. Nobody takes that other person seriously either. | ||
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Nisco
Brazil98 Posts
First off, they are being aggressive midgame to keep my army size small. Roaches are very cost effective when army sizes aren't large, and there is a strong point where mass roaches can cut back on Protoss army size largely. When Zerg don't use their strong midgame, I can get my deathball up quickly and safely, along with securing expansions much easier. Secondly is their late game army composition. Any zerg that doesn't eventually go Broodlords loses to me. The base of the army is Roach with Hydras sprinkled, 6 or so broodlords, 2-3 infestors, and baneling drops. I'd say the baneling drops and infestors are very important because it quickly cuts down the Protoss' army mass, making the Roach base of your army a lot more cost (food?) effective quickly, and the food cost from these two units is so low compared to the amount of damage they do. | ||
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MyOwnPrison
United States17 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:32 branflakes14 wrote: Please, explain to me why you think a claim like that can't be taken seriously, especially considering all I did was reverse exactly a claim someone else made. Well you're not making up some hypothetical situation. Like I said, Zerg has players like IDra, Morrow, Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, and Sheth. Saying those players aren't at least equally as skilled as the top Protoss and Terran players is just ridiculous. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:25 TeWy wrote: The reason why Zerg sucks, well Zerg doesn't suck. Even though Zerg has won 2 GSL, nearly 3 (each time it was another Zerg reaching final), we keep hearing since Beta 0.01 that Zerg is the weakest race. Recently, July won the ST tournament, and got into the final of GSL. Ret won the assembly. Idra did well in several tournaments. Dimaga won a lot of games when he was in Korea playing for the GSL WorldCup. Morrow doing great as well. Mondragon nearly beating (2-3) the best European Protoss last week. Stephano an emerging French Zerg (ex war3 player) has won the last 3 Go4sc2 Cup. Protoss on the other hand... Yes there's MC, he won 2 GSL, asides from that ? Nobody. In fact, if it wasn't for MC, no Protoss would have reached the final of the GSL. But if Zerg wants to do better, they will need to macro better. Yes MACRO BETTER.I'm tired of seeing so called Pro Zergs camping with over 3k minerals, no macro hatch, and a 200 food army with 90 drones and 50 roaches. Harassing with speeroaches/overlords + teching to tier3 is the key of this MU. Mark my words, in a few months people will systematically tech to infestors/broodlords or infestors/ultralisks in this MU. Zerg will also do better the day they will realize that Protoss can't have enough gaz to support sentries along HT/colossi (so that banelings in lategame are very good). ST tournament was won by Bomber. Aside from MC? U mean like aside from Naniwa winning MLG Kiwi placing 2nd, 2 tosses claiming top 2 in DH invitational? The truth is zerg is still the least successful race as it has been for the past year. And thank you for your newbie advice, i'll be sure to inform all pro zergs that you dont need good economy to win. Zergs have enjoyed a bit success as a result to other races adjusting to patch. Now we're back to square one. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
Maybe the best suggestions I've heard are Baneling drops... though these don't seem particularly stable. Look at how easily a handful of Pheonix/VR's defended roach drops for Cruncher vs Mondragon. He didn't even have stalkers. Nydus plays seems good too (see Spanishiwa) but it is only a matter of time before Protoss cancel that. One cannon will kill a nydus before it even finishes building. In the recently popular Spanishiwa vs Cruncher game (see almost any youtube caster to get it : I suggest PsyStarcraft) the only reason Spanishiwa won was because Cruncher had no vision behind his grass. Infestor play must be considered more... but the gas investment in infestors means that FG or NP must really be a game changer. NP on a colossus is basically unmanageable at the moment without a high-ground advantage. Many people have also argued that FG is not as effective vs P as vs T because of shields and greater life total in general... not to mention FF. I think a shift in the meta game must be made. Watcing pros go roaches every game makes me cringe. In my league (high diamond) I've been having success opening ling hydra (which does well vs gateway pushes or stargate tech) and adding roaches only at the late game to reinforce. Still I die to death balls if my early aggression fails to do damage. | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
Sure its a risky way to play, but you can't allow a race to build up a death ball. Because that requires cutting corners, and you as zerg can punish them for that. | ||
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Duoma
United States396 Posts
What zergs seem to be lacking most(but moving towards), is a way to effectively slow a large bulked up army. Multi-pronged attacks divert attention, but given the inevitable large maxed vs maxed engagment, this harass just serves to distract. Maybe the key lies with infestors and broodlords, maybe not. Either way I think ZvP is at least moving in the right direction(i.e. zerg should never be attacking in only one place) | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
That said, the map pool doesn't seem too much in Zerg's favour, despite the trend of larger maps like Taldarim, their chokes remain tight and favour units such as the siege tank and colossus more. That said, Crossfire just seems messed up. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On April 19 2011 07:54 Gigaudas wrote: You mentioned that the answer might be in light balance changes. I believe in huge balance changes. Substantial buffs could be made to Zerg units to balance ZvP. I dont believe that huge changes are necessary - there are already some new strategies out that are really promising Aside from that zvp is pretty balanced until the protoss has full supply where your only chance as zerg is that you are already on tier3 and either have broodlords for long range attacks or ultras to mow through forcefield, stalkers and colossi In my opinion the only weak unit in the zerg arsenal are hydras as they are usually only sunken resources and supply - the closest solution someone could think about is changing them like they were in bw. The thing is that if you do that it will have huge impacts on the entire gameplay as you could tech to hydras and they would probably destroy protoss before they get any colossi out. Another approach might be to change them into a "mid-supply" unit with 3-4 supply that fills a role which is covered by tanks for terrans and immortals for protoss The most annoying thing for me in zvp is that protoss has so little necessity to adapt and just almost get default wins just by choosing to 3 gate expand into colossi and i really dislike the changes that were made to phoenix production time (because you can hold mutas with one stargate) and void rays that are stronger against massive units as void rays are insanely good against 4 different zerg units and immortals/archons are not necessary. The result is one strategy that is supposed to beat everything thrown at them and in my understanding this is more of a balance issue than everything else | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
 sAviOr come? The metagame will always shifting, I'm sure someone will figure how to dismantle Protoss deathball. | ||
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SpectreSOF
United States74 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On April 19 2011 09:43 loveeholicce wrote: Well you're not making up some hypothetical situation. Like I said, Zerg has players like IDra, Morrow, Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, and Sheth. Saying those players aren't at least equally as skilled as the top Protoss and Terran players is just ridiculous. Did no one read the post he initially responded to? Some player basically claimed that the only reason Zerg ever did well was because Terran and Protoss were crap. He responded (in a not serious way) by saying that maybe the only reason Protoss is doing well is that the Zerg players are bad. He was making a point that you can't call one race terrible at what they do and claim thats the only reason they fail. On topic - I agree that patching isn't the solution to this problem, but rather using the tools that exist to greater effect. Yes, it's not fair that the deathball is easy to execute but hard to hold off - but it's also not fair that a 6 pool is very difficult to hold if scouted last, and a 3 rax all in is easier to execute than the forcefields required to stop it. The game isn't going to be perfectly balanced on difficulty at all points - but we work around it. The key to good play is to minimize the number of ways the opponent can do "easy things" while maximizing the way you can. | ||
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nEAnS
Canada161 Posts
Protoss deathball is also quite difficult to beat as terran, mainly because 1). Colossi are really strong 2). Instant replenishment of army with warpgates 3). Speedlots are uber cost effective (tvz) with upgrades 4). Storm + colossi melts terran balls This is of course from a Terran's perspective but I do think Protoss is the strongest right now due to some of the mechanics they have. | ||
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