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after Bobo_ suggestion i went mutas. Played quite a games doing it. And it was awesome. I even hid the spire elsewhere so if they had an observer so the only chance they would have to see it is when the mutas pop. Made about 10-15 and it was great. Killing probes left and right.
Started making hydras back home during the harass, but didnt really matter. But in every game they upped their stalker count so much that the mutas couldnt really touch them and the hydras were really lol well they died pretty quickly.
Did the same with lings waiting back home and with roaches.
The thing is i know i did a lot of economical damage, but mass stalker is one of those army compositions i don't really know how to deal with. Mass roach or even mass hydra never works for me that is. Havent tried infestors with mutas but i didnt have alot of gas. (but again this is something new for me)
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yea i feel like the definition of a zerg "all in" is going to have to be redefined because not only can zerg make alot of units at once for strong timings, the can also recover with tons or drones faster then any other race
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I think right now the game is balanced. Protoss has been crap for awhile. It's just now starting to change. I remember the threads all the time, asking how to deal with mutalisks. How to deal with mass roach as P. How to stop 6 pool as P. These were actual threads.
Finally the threads are changing to how to stop P. It will change again. Everyone needs to stop complaining and start making replays, make changes to your play and show other people. Answer the threads. Then things will change and people can complain about the next thing. its a cycle.
And whatever you do, don't listen to idra. I like the guy but he complains when he loses and that is not the attitude to have. He wont come out and say he was wrong either so you can't quote him.
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Protoss players are just playing for the late game now. Its not that they were incredibly innovative and had overcome adversity to get to their dominant position today.
Thats why 300 food pushing seemed so strong originally, because no P/T was playing to get on 3 or 4 bases. So naturally, if Zerg weathered the storm of they would be in a very advantageous position come late game.
I think Aggressive Zerg play is the right way to go. Honestly the Zerg army shouldn't be able to take out a P/T Maxed army. When you think about it, given the upply that Queens take up, the Avg Zerg max probably has 10 supply allocated to Queens. So if your even on harvesters your actually still behind on army size with not as cost efficient units.
Unlike P/T Zerg's should view their army as a liability, not an asset. For ever moment your army is on the field its loosing value. So you need to attack asap to make sure your army can perform at maximum effectiveness.
Its like your in an extremely inflationary society. You need to spend money (units) asap, while they have the most value, and can return the most asset (kills).
So since you should be constantly trading army theres no since in cutting drones for a bigger army. What you should do is drone up to 90 - 95 drones, and use the excess eco to fund your losses incurred from your aggression.
Sheth is the closest i've seen, to playing a "stylistically" correct late game for Zerg.
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I think there are a few openings that Zerg has to end up blind countering to be on top of a toss player.
1. That recent phoenix build time buff meant that a P can pump up so many phoenix in a short amount of time. So when a toss opens forge first, getting a fast third is very hard to defend against the quick 4 phoenix + 1 void ray combo. What makes this even worse is that void rays can now charge to max power on an overlord making them so much more effective against the distant thirds Z has to take on many maps. And spore crawlers take so long to build, Z has to blindly pre-empt. This is made even worse by hard scouting before lair.
2. Another problem is that P can very cost efficiently cause a lot of damage while macro-ing. They can throw down a dark shrine anytime and send a DT each of Z's 4 or 5 bases. Z has to pre-empt by throwing spores and spines. The fact that Zerg has to be many bases up on a Protoss makes DTs all the more effective.
3. So many Zerg's go early burrow now just so as not to die to a 6 gate push with FF abuse. I mean, the very fact that zerg has to play so cautiously makes it hard to get a significant macro advantage over a Protoss who knows how to defend any form of harass.. ala Cruncher.
The only hope I've seen for Zerg are infestors that the way Spanishiwa uses them. 2 full energy infestors can sneak to the back of a base and clean out an entire probe line. I think more pros can experiment w more infestors and drop play but the matchup is probably not very balanced now.
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So all the Protoss players here care to explain why you think you'd know more about ZvP than Idra, Morrow, Zenio, Dimaga, Sen etc just by watching a few minutes of Spanishiwa and Sheth's streams?
I don't remember the last time I saw a Zerg beating a good Protoss player (ie. no stupid all-in play and just solid macro) on any of the Blizzard maps, since the Protoss would be able to keep up with Zerg's macro while defend against any kind of timing attack with good sentry usage, good blink micro, and warp-gate mechanics. A late game mass blink stalker army is simply more cost-effective AND more mobile than pretty much any Zerg composition if controlled correctly.
I don't think Zerg is completely broken though. As new maps come into play, strategies that were previously considered coin-flip may eventually evolve into standard solid play. For instance, all the new GSL maps are designed to handicap a Protoss's late game economy one way or another: Tal'darim altar, Terminus SE, and Crevasse have less resource available on their safe second expo than a regular full expo; Xel'naga Fortress and Dual Site have very vulnerable, open third base, which make any aggression from Zerg very difficult to deal with. Not to mention the lack of destructible rocks blocking expansion gives Zerg a much better chance of out-macroing Protoss without wasting larvae on units in the early game. Still anyone who thinks that Protoss late game isn't too strong against Zerg on the current Blizzard map pool is, IMO, as delusional as people who think ZvT is fine on Steps and DQ.
As for the OP:
The short period when Zerg was doing well in the top level, Terran wasn't even leap frogging Siege Tanks or splitting Marines. It took forever for Protoss players to figure out how strong early Sentries are and how ridiculously strong Col/VR is against Zerg lategame. Hell, it took forever for players from other races to figure out exactly how to feign pressure to keep Zerg from getting too much drones in the midgame.
Comparatively speaking Zerg units have little micro potential (ie. lower skill cap) as they are all melee, move really slow, or have really long attack cooldown. It's not surprising that Zerg now has the weakest lategame as players get better overall and make more cost-effective use of their units.
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On April 19 2011 10:16 TheResidentEvil wrote:
I think right now the game is balanced. Protoss has been crap for awhile. It's just now starting to change. I remember the threads all the time, asking how to deal with mutalisks. How to deal with mass roach as P. How to stop 6 pool as P. These were actual threads.
Finally the threads are changing to how to stop P. It will change again. Everyone needs to stop complaining and start making replays, make changes to your play and show other people. Answer the threads. Then things will change and people can complain about the next thing. its a cycle.
And whatever you do, don't listen to idra. I like the guy but he complains when he loses and that is not the attitude to have. He wont come out and say he was wrong either so you can't quote him.
Idra admitted his mistake when he played bad. for the most recent one, check out idra interview after vs huk games (some girl interviewed him). what idra said/predicted is annoyingly accurate, most of the time.
OT:
Lets face it guys, Cruncher is the best example of being a 'common' toss - he doesnt need to have amazing timing/mechanics/macro (i still remember the Game 1 he vs Idra in TSL3, idra food count is 3times of cruncher at some point, something like 57:150), he just need to turtle up and make his 200/200 death ball and A move gg >_> not that I disrepect or saying cruncher is bad, i honestly dont blame him to win game in that fashion (when you are against the guy who is called Macro machine XD). but seriously, how would people justify that the level of requirement to play a game like Cruncher compare to the skills of a zerg require to beat him?
Baneling bust +lings runby or any sort of roaches all in is what i think is the best strat in zvp. why would you bother to play against a toss with a 200/200 army. neff voids or buff corruptors, or give zerg a unit that is good vs Voids (if you say hydra or corruptor than i'd say you dont play against death ball enough).
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On April 19 2011 09:59 phrenzy wrote:
after Mobo_ suggestion i went mutas. Played quite a games doing it. And it was awesome. I even hid the spire elsewhere so if they had an observer so the only chance they would have to see it is when the mutas pop. Made about 10-15 and it was great. Killing probes left and right.
Started making hydras back home during the harass, but didnt really matter. But in every game they upped their stalker count so much that the mutas couldnt really touch them and the hydras were really lol well they died pretty quickly.
Did the same with lings waiting back home and with roaches.
The thing is i know i did a lot of economical damage, but mass stalker is one of those army compositions i don't really know how to deal with. Mass roach or even mass hydra never works for me that is. Havent tried infestors with mutas but i didnt have alot of gas. (but again this is something new for me)
Stalkers actually have very low dps. The reason why mass stalkers actually work is because they have a lot more stalkers than you do anything.
Anyway, Zergs are definitely having a hard time right now. I believe that even if Zergs find out a new way to beat Protoss players in a macro game, it won't be a consistent strategy because of the sheer power of the Collosus. An example would be something like game 2 of Mondragon vs Cruncher.
Despite my Protoss roots, I honestly think though they do need to nerf the colossus. Mass gateway units have been shown to work in spite of my earlier assumptions that they were shit.
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I really worry that Blizzard will do that (they have clearly considered it, given their posts about the templar nerf). PvT is not far off balanced, and a nerf to collosus could seriously tip things.
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Dudes....Mondragon already solved it....he just forgot the infestors at game 3 vs Cruncher :D
And his startegy is as simple as it is genius the same time....
how do you fight a deathball? right....dont let the protoss build one!
and when he turtles and gets his ball with heavy damage over time, ur fine cuz ur infestors are out....unfortunatly mondragon forgot it on shakuras :D ...
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Just make some Infestors. Heck even Mondragon said that he doesn't have that much problems with Deathballs anymore but he figured it out too late unfortunately.
"yeh but that doesn't say much"
Well it does say more than a couple of bronze leaguers whining their **sses off instead of playing the game and improving their own game for sure.
We will see more infestor play soon (with broodlords/speedlings or roaches or maybe banelings) and then Protoss will be in tears again. No need for any changes until 2/3/4 months have passed and people start to figure out how to beat it. It has always been like this, every race is winning tournaments and is able to do so and that is okay.
Watch infestor play rising up, oh not in bronze/silver league ofcourse because they are prolly too bad to use them anyway. People need to learn most of them don't lose the game vs undefeatable deathballs or undefeatable drop harass or whatever. Most of them lose the game to themselves because they make mistakes that cost them the game. Stop whining and start playing. Mondragon lost a tournament with some nice cashout and he isn't whining, he is just stating he figured out how to do it too late. More and more people will realize infestor play is the way to go.
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Hello, I'm just dropping by to mention the Infestor, I'm sure most Zergs haven't forgotten about this awesome uberbuffed unit that deals with the "deathball" quite good in many situations.
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actually, in 2010 zergs needed more then 2 bases to win
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The development of Zerg play has been quite striking compared to the other races.
Protoss are finally harnessing force field to its fullest potential, and you see many fewer useless or harmful force fields now. Sentry counts are much higher than they used to be (after the damage nerf) as people figured out their utility. Protoss also figured out how to safely incorporate an air-heavy composition and dark templar, and the 4-gate timings were really hammered out.
I suppose I haven't paid as much attention to Terran, but they have found many ways to "abuse" their powers -- 5 rax reaper, 2 rax bunker marine, banshees, etc. A lot of this has gotten nerfed but its still very strong and flexible against a Zerg player. Marine control has dramatically improved and after much whining about the tank nerfs, tanks are again commonly incorporated into almost every style of play.
In comparison, the Zerg developments feel really lame -- get the gas a little later, drop stuff from overlords, get better at droning, etc. Spanishiwa's build is being considered the biggest development but it's not really all that new. It's just another way for Zerg to maximize their abuse of drone production.
If you just look at the number of abilities and options available to each race, it shouldn't be surprising that Terran and Protoss have made huge strides while comparatively Zerg hasn't improved as much. I can't speak on absolute strengths, but relatively speaking, Terran and Protoss have a lot more to play around with in terms of viable unit compositions, and I think this is what is really driving the shifts in gameplay.
I think the ease at which 200/200 is reached is definitely hurting Blizzard's ability to balance the game. The 200/200 dynamic is so much different than the rest of the game. Maybe it's my perception but SC2 reaches that stage much sooner than SC1 did, and so a lot of the old balance conceptions no longer hold true.
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On April 19 2011 07:33 branflakes14 wrote:I agree completely with the OP. Moreso after watching  Sheth's stream for a good few hours the last couple of days. It's almost embarrassing to see how little faith people have in Blizzard's ability to balance a game, especially when they were responsible for what's considered the most balanced RTS on the planet that isn't a pure mirror. If anything people should have MORE faith in them since between now and Brood War Blizzard have had years to refine their methods of balancing games.
You must have missed the RTS had between Broodwar and SC2. Called Warcraft 3, not the best example in balance.
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On April 19 2011 11:18 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:33 branflakes14 wrote:I agree completely with the OP. Moreso after watching Sheth's stream for a good few hours the last couple of days. It's almost embarrassing to see how little faith people have in Blizzard's ability to balance a game, especially when they were responsible for what's considered the most balanced RTS on the planet that isn't a pure mirror. If anything people should have MORE faith in them since between now and Brood War Blizzard have had years to refine their methods of balancing games. You must have missed the RTS had between Broodwar and SC2. Called Warcraft 3, not the best example in balance.
Exactly, and while I've not played WoW I've heard nothing but horror stories about its balance team. Brood War was a total fluke. Its balance relies on a million different glitches and tricks that were never intended to work.
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Zerg units don't have enough range to compete as equals with the Protoss. Terran doesn't seem to have as much difficulty dealing with Protoss armies, because they have more than enough cost effective ranged units.
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I just want to point out that one thing is missing from the OP. The Ultralisk was in fact nerfed... So now Zerg Macro players generally are required to stay Tier 2 because the Tier 3 isn't all that great anymore. Don't get me wrong, Brood Lords are amazing units, but against a Protoss Deathball that features Void Rays and Colo.... I think that they aren't as cost effective as the Colo which has amazing splash. And since Voids now do bonus to BLs.
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Completely avoiding any balance talk, in my eyes, to say that "a Zerg 200 should never be able to beat a Protoss 200" is completely wrong. It should not be the case that a properly constructed army can never beat another maxxed army.
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EPT
