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On April 19 2011 07:23 Buffy wrote:
I think it's going to shift to something like roach/infestor/banelings at some point infestors just to hold em still and just then baneling drop everything and then clean up with roaches. Only thing I can see what will take out balls nowadays without broods lateish game.
And someone mentioned that fungal and colousses has same range, yeah it does, but only a tiny bit of the circel touches 9 range, to get a full fungal in you need to be at 6-7 range.
Actually, the range on the center point of a fungal is at 9 - which means that you can fungal the first unit and half of the circle will hit those behind it. This effectively allows you to fungal the Colossi outside of it's range - test it in a unit test map - have the far point of a fungal hit the colossi (not the middle of the fungal reticule) and see that the colossi cannot attack your infestor.
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On April 19 2011 07:17 x89 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:57 purecarnagge wrote:
zergs are not being aggressive enough there is no reason to let a protoss get a ball of death going... keep them on 2 base keep pressuring... zergs drone so hard they lose sight of this and suddenly protoss has map control and zerg is trying not to die... not an optimal way to play.... I think I agree with this, if you play really aggressively as Zerg and constantly exchange your army for theirs as well as things such as baneling drops and nydus play you can prevent the opponent from moving out, or at worst force a base race. I've not really thought on the point enough, and I'm only high diamond so I don't claim to be an expert here but from watching some of the potent aggression that players like Spanishiwa does (and to an extent every player that does baneling busts, MorroW and I think Dimaga spring to mind, probably all the professional Zerg players at some point) I've seen it have great success. I love how much the StarCraft II meta-game has an impact on play for almost every level. It's literally days you have to wait after seeing a potent strategy exerted by a professional player and it shows up on the ladder frequently.
this is definitely a promising approach and i completely agree and also play aggressive myself but the dirty truth is that there are 3 problems: maps, forcefields and cannons
dont get me wrong - aggressive play has won me several games and put me on a huge winstreak against protoss but its not like this is the solution for everything
not too long ago we thought large maps favour zerg as we were heavily into playing macro where protoss players mostly used 4 gates or 3 gate air/robo but it turns out that large maps make aggressive play somewhat weaker - if the protoss builds up simcity and knows how to use forcefields you would definitely need roaches to trade armies because your lings/blings will die without any trade - large maps and slow roaches is not a good combination, waiting for speed upgrade will miss the point where protoss is really vulnerable; im not even talking about natural chokes that appear on certain maps at the expansion and also there are maps where the protoss can even expand earlier and you can hardly do anything to make it costly (shakuras, taldarim)
as i've been using baneling drops a few times i discovered that it only works against people that dont know or dont pay attention else all players move probes immediately when they see the overlords; also a lot of players dont realize how good 2-3 cannons are to kill any kind of early drop or muta harassment but as soon as it changes drops will loose its value
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I'm sure that new ways to play will be invented but I'm not sure if it's enough to make the game balanced enough without making any actual changes to the game. I think it's just too early to decide and we should wait for a year or so before we start having these balance discussions.
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Nah, zerg vs protoss was really all about the protoss making mistakes. This is why at a lower level, toss is not as overpowered, but at the highest level, it is, because zergs will do aggression, but a good toss will easily stop it and defend everything, scouting everything, microing well, and in the end if the toss makes no mistakes, the toss will win no matter what. For example, the only reason why MC lost against July in the finals was because he didnt scout the overlord hydra drop, if he then he would be much more prepared. Same thing for huk vs idra, if huk had scouted more better, saw that the roaches had tunneling claws, he wouldnt have gotten owned so hard without the obs.
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After watching Cruncher Vs Mondragon i think that it looks like the some players are still neglecting to use infestors. The early phoenix/ voidray harrass could have easily been neutralized with infestors and a few fungal growth, and those infestors could have been saved for later on during the major battles. I think that balance wise there might be a few tweaks here and there, nothing major tho. I think players just need to critically analyze their gameplay and the gameplay of others to work out a strategic build to stop the "deathball"
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You didn't need balance tweaks to take care of zerg because zerg was never overpowered, the players for T and P just sucked. Most of the top 8 from the first 2 GSLs are gone/code A now. Yet the only new zerg is basically LosirA and July... Idra, ret, fruit, nestea, zenio are still around.
If you look at how oGsTOP or Rain played against Fruit back in GSL1, it wouldn't even be Code A level right now.
During the time of the early GSLs, most pro zergs had far more average ladder games played than the other races, meaning more practice.
Terrans were still using mostly MMM and didn't incorporate tanks (even when they did 50 damage to all units) into their armies forever. Mass drop play was barely touched until MVP showed up.
Protoss were still stuck on 4gate and learning how to expand safely, especially after 4 range roaches. They went as far to say that expanding early was an instant loss against a roach rush because of the 4 range. Turns out they just had to learn where to place cannons and how to use the sentry. THE SENTRY. That is the unit that protoss players learned how to use that has completely owned the metagame, you didn't see amazing force fields 5 months ago.
Then you now have big maps, which lets zerg macro.... slightly better than before, but lets protoss and terran get an easy 3 bases. Terran and Protoss can sit and produce off 3 bases for over 20-30 minutes and win, as a protoss can actually max 200/200 3/3/3 off 6 gases if you don't kill any of their colossus with constant attacks.
Then you have patches, which nerfed terran over and over and over, making TvZ one of the best and most balanced matchups in the game right now, also the favorite of many. Yet protoss also got a lot of buffs, such as cheaper hallucination, cheaper observers, faster phoenix... all these things MASSIVELY help them in the scouting department so they will always know to make more zealots or more stalkers or if they need an immortal as opposed to colossus, etc.
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You mentioned that the answer might be in light balance changes.
I believe in huge balance changes. Substantial buffs could be made to Zerg units to balance ZvP.
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well maybe Zerg will have to back off from full Macro Style and be more aggressive at certain timings and then Macro hard behind that aggression.
especially because those larger maps give Terran/Protoss easier Thirds than compared to the older maps.
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On April 19 2011 07:02 Teoita wrote:
Interesting and fair points, i wish people considered this more. Protoss is not designed too well in my opinion (fast warpgates and force fields cause a whole lot of issues, and i play only p), but the whole "zomg protoss imba qq" thing has just gone overboard, to the point where if almost -any- pro p beats a pro z, he's often getting insulted for playing the ezmode race.
I think protoss was designed pretty well as a race. their units alone are not that strong but together they form an almost unbeatable combination.
In regards to the mass anti-protoss qq, I think much of it just comes from the current protoss playstyles that are very effective against current terran and zerg strategies but (at least superficially) seem to be much, much "easier" to carry out.
Example (WARNING: contains spoilers from TSL Ro16):
+ Show Spoiler +A good example of this would be cruncher vs. mondragon. You can cry all you want about how cruncher has no skill compared to mondragon, but his strategies worked well and there's no denying it. mondragon even admitted later on that he had been using the wrong strategies (no infestors in any games). btw, I dislike cruncher and really, really wanted mondragon to win 
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i just think that zergs became too dependent on roaches ever since patch 1.21
200/200 roach is terrible. While zerg can make reinforcement faster, will the pure roach army do enough damage? I think not. Also FF wasn't that a big problem before, its just that zerg prefer a heavy roach army now.
We don't even see muta lings anymore and with the new storm nerf, the strat become more potent. Zerg really need to adapt a harass style against zerg. Protoss is strongest when the army is in a ball and weaker when separated.
Mondi's styles is good, just need better execution and I'm sure it will happen in the future.
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Seems like Protoss definitely has the upper hand in this match-up. If Zerg macros up without pressure, Protoss has the advantage. If Zerg is aggressive, forcefields give them an amazing defenders advantage. It really seems like Zerg has to fight an uphill battle.
I think for the most part it comes down to maps whether Zerg can successfully be aggressive or not. If the third is close by, like on Tal'darim, it makes it incredibly hard to do multi-pronged attacks because it doesn't take long for the Protoss to get to any of his 3 bases. On something like slag pits, it becomes much easier. Maybe maps with a far away third can help out the match-up?
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On April 19 2011 05:40 Polatrite wrote:
Are we sure that we need balance tweaks to take care of Protoss?
What the hell is your opinion?
Like, I understand the progression of the strengths and weaknesses of races, but why are you saying this? Are you trying to stir conversation by being some objective outsider?
Give me something to work with; say something about your own thoughts. If you don't, then any person could have written this thread.
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Australia8532 Posts
On April 19 2011 07:54 Gigaudas wrote:
You mentioned that the answer might be in light balance changes.
I believe in huge balance changes. Substantial buffs could be made to Zerg units to balance ZvP.
I would love to know why you think this? Why you don't believe that players can discover different ways to play the matchup and explore an ingame resolution to any MU problems that they are having (read: July) - there is just so much that hasn't been explored yet; Protoss have discovered a new strategy to beat Zerg, it is now Zergs turn.
Why resort to mass balance patching that will undoubtedly result in a broken game? What balance changes would you propose?
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On April 19 2011 07:54 Mailing wrote:
You didn't need balance tweaks to take care of zerg because zerg was never overpowered, the players for T and P just sucked. Most of the top 8 from the first 2 GSLs are gone/code A now. Yet the only new zerg is basically LosirA and July... Idra, ret, fruit, nestea, zenio are still around.
If you look at how oGsTOP or Rain played against Fruit back in GSL1, it wouldn't even be Code A level right now.
During the time of the early GSLs, most pro zergs had far more average ladder games played than the other races, meaning more practice.
Terrans were still using mostly MMM and didn't incorporate tanks (even when they did 50 damage to all units) into their armies forever. Mass drop play was barely touched until MVP showed up.
Protoss were still stuck on 4gate and learning how to expand safely, especially after 4 range roaches. They went as far to say that expanding early was an instant loss against a roach rush because of the 4 range. Turns out they just had to learn where to place cannons and how to use the sentry. THE SENTRY. That is the unit that protoss players learned how to use that has completely owned the metagame, you didn't see amazing force fields 5 months ago.
Then you now have big maps, which lets zerg macro.... slightly better than before, but lets protoss and terran get an easy 3 bases. Terran and Protoss can sit and produce off 3 bases for over 20-30 minutes and win, as a protoss can actually max 200/200 3/3/3 off 6 gases if you don't kill any of their colossus with constant attacks.
Then you have patches, which nerfed terran over and over and over, making TvZ one of the best and most balanced matchups in the game right now, also the favorite of many. Yet protoss also got a lot of buffs, such as cheaper hallucination, cheaper observers, faster phoenix... all these things MASSIVELY help them in the scouting department so they will always know to make more zealots or more stalkers or if they need an immortal as opposed to colossus, etc.
Lol this is a grossly inaccurate history of SC2. First of all, since the roach went to 2 food and sentry damage was nerfed, no race has ever been "overpowered" in SC2. Second, Lol@ protoss knows when to build more zealots. After the point when you can get hallucinate out (about 7 minutes reasonably) zealots have already almost outlived their usefulness in the matchup (save a rare ultralisk appearance, but even then zealots are only good at "not getting killed too fast"). Third, 4 gate is more prevalent now than even back then. The metagame for a while was TC tech for DT's/blink stalker/HT (for feedback on overseers and storm) and then whatever else applied. To be honest those were more interesting games back then.
A race has not been "overpowered" at all yet. Some tweaks were needed (see original void ray), but theres never been a situation where it was so grim for one race that they might as well not even bother competing.
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On April 19 2011 08:01 DarkRise wrote:
We don't even see muta lings anymore
The buff to hallucination scouting and reduction in pheonix build time, and the discovery of the 6-gate all ended muta-ling style quite quickly. And Protoss got quite good at defending it. It was already on a knife edge surviving long enough.
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In the ZvP matchup, I think Banelings are HEAVILY overlooked. Banelings with burrow researched forces P to have obs at all times, they're like the new Lurkers. I think in the future we will see Zergs playing a drop-heavy style, and utilizing Banelings more, most likely with burrow, to force P to keep Obs with his army.
I see it playing out like this: P deathball comes with obs. Zerg has a nice unit mix, probably the usual Roach/Hydra/Corruptor, but with Banelings as well, in a pretty high ratio, making sure to have Overseers. Zerg tries to snipe obs with Overseer +Hydra or Corruptor, keeping Banelings back. Denying P detection could open up windows, because I've seen good Z players use burrow Banelings (along with a pretty modest supporting army) take out an entire Protoss deathball, just using clever positioning. They are really good for taking out the dreaded Sentry, and great against Collossus as well. Banelings using burrow to get close before forcefields can be thrown all around the ball or slice the Z army can get right inside and do insane damage. A lot of things are underused and undiscovered, because most people use the same strats and unit compositions, as they care more about winning every game than they do about learning new playstyles.
Heavy drop-play and more Baneling usage is the future of ZvP, I contend.
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On April 19 2011 07:36 Catreina wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:23 Buffy wrote:
I think it's going to shift to something like roach/infestor/banelings at some point infestors just to hold em still and just then baneling drop everything and then clean up with roaches. Only thing I can see what will take out balls nowadays without broods lateish game.
And someone mentioned that fungal and colousses has same range, yeah it does, but only a tiny bit of the circel touches 9 range, to get a full fungal in you need to be at 6-7 range. Actually, the range on the center point of a fungal is at 9 - which means that you can fungal the first unit and half of the circle will hit those behind it. This effectively allows you to fungal the Colossi outside of it's range - test it in a unit test map - have the far point of a fungal hit the colossi (not the middle of the fungal reticule) and see that the colossi cannot attack your infestor.
Easier said than done.
On to the topic at hand. There really has only been 1 BIG shift in core playstyle in regards to player evolution since release, and that has to do with the incorporation of more sentries in the Protoss army. Beyond that, changes in the form of unit balance and map size have dictated much of the change we see today (map size being the biggest contributor).
Now Protoss can feel safe because of the increased time cushions provided by map size and sentries. I'm not talking about forcefielding ramps to get higher tech out to deal with 7RR or MM stim push, but a more general domination of early Protoss army composition. Proper FFs can change a devastating timing push into a timing mush, which discourages a lot of aggression from both T and Z. Instead of pushing out and trying to pick off misplaced/mistimed units and buildings, T and Z are encouraged to prepare for one large push against the P army/defenses. This doesn't work as well though, since a well made Protoss army will beat most other armies in a head on fight due to both FFs and Colossi.
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On April 19 2011 08:08 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:54 Mailing wrote:
You didn't need balance tweaks to take care of zerg because zerg was never overpowered, the players for T and P just sucked. Most of the top 8 from the first 2 GSLs are gone/code A now. Yet the only new zerg is basically LosirA and July... Idra, ret, fruit, nestea, zenio are still around.
If you look at how oGsTOP or Rain played against Fruit back in GSL1, it wouldn't even be Code A level right now.
During the time of the early GSLs, most pro zergs had far more average ladder games played than the other races, meaning more practice.
Terrans were still using mostly MMM and didn't incorporate tanks (even when they did 50 damage to all units) into their armies forever. Mass drop play was barely touched until MVP showed up.
Protoss were still stuck on 4gate and learning how to expand safely, especially after 4 range roaches. They went as far to say that expanding early was an instant loss against a roach rush because of the 4 range. Turns out they just had to learn where to place cannons and how to use the sentry. THE SENTRY. That is the unit that protoss players learned how to use that has completely owned the metagame, you didn't see amazing force fields 5 months ago.
Then you now have big maps, which lets zerg macro.... slightly better than before, but lets protoss and terran get an easy 3 bases. Terran and Protoss can sit and produce off 3 bases for over 20-30 minutes and win, as a protoss can actually max 200/200 3/3/3 off 6 gases if you don't kill any of their colossus with constant attacks.
Then you have patches, which nerfed terran over and over and over, making TvZ one of the best and most balanced matchups in the game right now, also the favorite of many. Yet protoss also got a lot of buffs, such as cheaper hallucination, cheaper observers, faster phoenix... all these things MASSIVELY help them in the scouting department so they will always know to make more zealots or more stalkers or if they need an immortal as opposed to colossus, etc. A race has not been "overpowered" at all yet. Some tweaks were needed (see original void ray), but theres never been a situation where it was so grim for one race that they might as well not even bother competing.
BECAUSE it was patched. If terran had not received a single of their 20~ nerfs since 1.0, do you think the game would be the way it is right now? It was not just apparent back then because they didn't have enough time to practice how to abuse the power they had. Even now, after terran has been balanced to hell and back, they are doing GREAT.
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On April 19 2011 07:51 koolaid1990 wrote:
Nah, zerg vs protoss was really all about the protoss making mistakes. This is why at a lower level, toss is not as overpowered, but at the highest level, it is, because zergs will do aggression, but a good toss will easily stop it and defend everything, scouting everything, microing well, and in the end if the toss makes no mistakes, the toss will win no matter what. For example, the only reason why MC lost against July in the finals was because he didnt scout the overlord hydra drop, if he then he would be much more prepared. Same thing for huk vs idra, if huk had scouted more better, saw that the roaches had tunneling claws, he wouldnt have gotten owned so hard without the obs.
This is one of the stupider things I have read on TL.
In a game of skill, if one player makes zero mistakes, they should win 100%. No mistakes means playing perfectly, and if you can play perfectly and still lose, that's when the game is broken.
Now, you might be able to argue that even if Zerg plays perfectly, they can still lose, but that's a completely different argument, and I think you would have a lot of trouble proving that.
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On April 19 2011 05:57 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:54 Jerax wrote:On April 19 2011 05:49 Antedelerium wrote:
Definitely a copy-paste error. Regardless, OP does make an interesting point with the comparison of how macro Zergs used to be scary while the Protoss deathball strategy goes along the same lines. I highly doubt balance tweaks will be necessary to counter the deathball, but we'll see what happens in higher levels of play. That's how it always goes. Sooner or later, someone figures out how to counter a specific type of strategy. As good as MC is, sooner or later someone will figure out how to consistently stop his insane pushes. Sooner or later, someone will just figure out how to dismantle Cruncher in ZvP in convincing fashion (some pros probably can already and just haven't faced him). But balance tweaks have already been made. The infestor buff hard counters protoss death balls, being highly effective against pretty much the whole protoss composition. And yet every pro don't make them. Broodlords with infestors&anything support destroy any kind of stalkers/colossi deathball protoss can make. But everyone is still sticking to roaches hydra corruptor. :/
thats because roach hydra corrupter is the only way to deal with early timing attacks with a few colossi.
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