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On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe.
Cheese will never go away, look at bw right now, there has been no zerg in an osl to not 4 pool like, ever.
Not to speak of 1 base-allins. (proxy stargates, marine/scv allin etc) which are just insanely good in sc2. Anytime there is mindgames involved, there will be cheese.
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I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves.
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On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
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On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe.
A skilled player knows how to defend cheese and how to design cheese proof builds, cheese is needed to keep greedy builds in check, if they take cheese out of the game then you'll have a slippery slope of greedier and greedier builds
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lols Just tried 6/7 pooling only ones I beat were plat any good diamonds beat me with a single cannon and ZvZ is absolute crap as everyone 10 pools now.. DONT 6 PEWL.
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This is not that hard to counter as protoss.
You just gotta have a few key things going for you.
Need to pylon at ramp then gateway.
Usually the lings will come as your cyber core goes down. You just need to add a next pylon.
If you fully walled you are good. Besides 8 lings isn't that much too deal with if you can crono some lots.
I like to 9 scout zergs. Forge expand would probably hold this if played properly without too much greed.
Can't say i've been 6 pooled in a while.
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On July 04 2011 22:05 Hashmeister wrote:
I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves.
To be honest though, 6pool is pretty strong... Moon attempted it vs HuK on G5 at DH Summer and got scouted first, while July did it to HasuObs same tourney, got scouted first, but somehow managed to take it. If you scout it last you are quite disadvantaged, you can't get a cannon up and obviously a full wall isn't as effective because the lings will just pick at your buildings (and you have to build the zealot on the inside or else it'll just die immediately.
I won two 6pool games yesterday (I'm 1550 Masters)... one was vs a Forge FE on Shakuras so I got quite far ahead (killed enough probes, forced him to build a pylon and wall off... I actually got my expo much faster than he did), other was against gate-forge (built forge upon seeing my opening), still managed to take out the gate and pylon and yeah held him back.
I don't know, 6pool feels a little strong vs Toss at the moment. Not sure how strong it is in ZvZ, a Zerg with good micro should be able to stop it... I prefer 9pool if I want to cheese, 9pool has a bit of a better follow-up... I went 14g/14p vs a 6pool once and he went for an offensive spine crawler, took out like 5 drones, but he was still behind 5 workers to like 8 so he had to gg... with a 9pool, comes a bit later, but he has an extra 4 or so workers.
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On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
well, white-ra manages. its not as dumb as it sounds.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233795
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Canada13393 Posts
On July 05 2011 00:41 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early) well, white-ra manages. its not as dumb as it sounds. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233795
Yes White-ra manages it but it takes a lot of good control to make sure you mineral walk hurt probes away. Basically against a 6/7 pool white-ras build is great because you can keep making probes and not cut production to force more buildings, instead you micro and chrono zealots while walling in the probe line a bit better with extra minerals and continuing your tech.
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Whenever I get a stupid map and get pissed (slag pits) vs. protoss I always 6 pool.
To be honest, against protoss I think it has worked every single time...
Also, to refine your 6 pool strategy, keep an overlord just outside your ramp. Then when you see a scouting probe coming, send our a drone and pretend you want to expand. Most of the time he'll try to block it with his probe and not scout your main for awhile.
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no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story.
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On July 04 2011 22:02 simansh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe. Cheese will never go away, look at bw right now, there has been no zerg in an osl to not 4 pool like, ever. Not to speak of 1 base-allins. (proxy stargates, marine/scv allin etc) which are just insanely good in sc2. Anytime there is mindgames involved, there will be cheese.
I think cheese is a legitimate strategy. At least when you are playing to win. As players get better at scouting and defending them they will happen less, but they will still happen.
There is no right and wrong way to play the game as long as they can win. Imba cheese is a different matter.
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On July 04 2011 23:48 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:05 Hashmeister wrote:
I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves. To be honest though, 6pool is pretty strong... Moon attempted it vs HuK on G5 at DH Summer and got scouted first, while July did it to HasuObs same tourney, got scouted first, but somehow managed to take it. If you scout it last you are quite disadvantaged, you can't get a cannon up and obviously a full wall isn't as effective because the lings will just pick at your buildings (and you have to build the zealot on the inside or else it'll just die immediately. I won two 6pool games yesterday (I'm 1550 Masters)... one was vs a Forge FE on Shakuras so I got quite far ahead (killed enough probes, forced him to build a pylon and wall off... I actually got my expo much faster than he did), other was against gate-forge (built forge upon seeing my opening), still managed to take out the gate and pylon and yeah held him back. I don't know, 6pool feels a little strong vs Toss at the moment. Not sure how strong it is in ZvZ, a Zerg with good micro should be able to stop it... I prefer 9pool if I want to cheese, 9pool has a bit of a better follow-up... I went 14g/14p vs a 6pool once and he went for an offensive spine crawler, took out like 5 drones, but he was still behind 5 workers to like 8 so he had to gg... with a 9pool, comes a bit later, but he has an extra 4 or so workers.
Dreamhack was on an old version of Taldarim, so Huk could wall with 2 proper buildings and a pylon, on the current version it's a lot harder to hold it so easily.
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On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
I was diamond and i dropped to platinium, since it's faster and easier wins.
It worked as well in diamond against protoss, against zerg it's was really harder.
As rottenpotato said before, if protoss scout 6 pool and wall of with forge , in this case you need to focus the gateway before the canon is finished. After that you have to surround the canon asap.
If the canon is in the mineral line, it's impossible to snipe.
If there is two gateways with a wall off, you have to manage to snipe the two gateway at the same time.
That shows that protoss players simply don't have the skill. Because really good protoss players can shutdown 6 pool with 13 gateway + core + really good probe micro. ( Sorry if you see any troll inside this)
@Doomsville: Awesome trick !
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On July 05 2011 02:50 LeCastor wrote:
That shows that protoss players simply don't have the skill. Because really good protoss players can shutdown 6 pool with 13 gateway + core + really good probe micro. ( Sorry if you see any troll inside this)
I'd like to see a Protoss hold a properly executed 6pool (as in, the Zerg doesn't just a-move his lings into the mineral line), having scouted it after putting down his Core. I'm sure you can produce a variety of high-level replays/vods, seeing as you couldn't possibly know from your own ladder experience.
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On July 05 2011 02:26 royal.cze wrote:
no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story.
Read the thread.
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 vs  준몽님 vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
thought i'd share this replay. It's a master level protoss on KOR and he does pretty much everything you should do to stop a good 6pool (I say good as in, a 10-ling + 1 worker 6pool)
- No knowledge of 6pool until it's next to his ramp
- standard 1-gate core opener
All you have to do is buy time by delaying. The threat of probes will stop zerg from attacking your pylon long enough to get your zealot out. Don't lose probes, and don't attack with them until you have to. Just stay near. If zerg a-moves into you with lings, he's going to lose and he knows that (until his next 4 lings arrive), and if you can get your zealot out, you'll be in fine shape.
DO NOT overreact and make a forge/cannon. That thread from long ago recommending it was for Steppes of War, not these season 3 maps in the pool now. They all have longer rush distances, and can be stopped with minimal probe micro. While this is 100% win over 6pool, you run the risk of losing if you misread the pool timing and it turns out to have been a catz-style 7 pool. That opener will put you behind economically if you forge/cannon.
Hope this helps any protoss struggling against the occasional 6pool.
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http://drop.sc/23026
To follow up on micheals post, this is the proper way to hold off a 6 pool against a FFE.
You should be pylon scouting with a FFE. Also, have a probe in the natural area from 13 supply to when you scout him and his BO. You need to be able to respond asap. Important part is not to lose the cannon, mineral walking probes to protect the cannon is usually necessary. Zerg can't actually enter the mineral line until he has 10+ lings so you are fairly safe. Followup is up to you, but you actually aren't behind(check worker/army count). I probably could've had a slightly more effective 6 gate if I transfered a few more workers to nat, but it's hard to tell with 2 buildings in mineral line =/.
For the record I was going to nexus first, but then I saw the pool. I'm not quite sure if you can fully wall off in time, and if the guy blocks buildings with the drone, then it's going to be difficult at best to get a full walloff.
EDIT: you can fully wall off on shakuras in time in cross spots at least, assuming no drone goes to block the buildings. If a drone does go to block buildings you probably have to cannon mineral line.
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On July 05 2011 03:11 RANDOMCL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:26 royal.cze wrote:
no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story. Read the thread.
idd
besides... this is na 
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
