EPTWhy the Blizzard ladder is great - Page 7
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Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
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KonohaFlash
Canada1590 Posts
On April 07 2011 20:19 IntotheNorth wrote: Guess loads of people are like me never been through the noob stage, probaly due to the past RTS experience Oh yeah? SC2 was my first RTS and I got placed in Plat. Wat up. | ||
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Marksel
Netherlands56 Posts
That is complete crap.. Here's my story that explains why: When I started playing, I was bronze with a 50% winrate. I stopped playing for some time and followed alot of pro starcraft. After about a month I started playing again. Having seen alot of professionals do their thing, I had gotten a much better insight into the game. This meant that I suddenly had a massive winstreak. I had a ratio of about 80-80 before I stopped, and later on I was in platinum with ~180-100. This may not indicate skill, but it sure indicated something to me: as I was still winning far more than losing, I knew I was still in the wrong league. Knowing that, I had alot of motivation to play and keep going, to see in which league my W/L ratio will even out to the 50%, so I know in which league I belong. This, however, is when the patch hit. and I know have no clue wether or not my W/L ratio is approaching 50% or not. Not knowing wether it has or not, really pulled down my motivation to keep playing and see in which league I below, and because of that I have hardly played since the patch, and am still in platinum. It may not indicate skill directly, but it is a great motivation to keep playing for me, and I'm sure for many others aswell. For this reason, I really think making the losses hidden should be optional. And please, for the love of god, or for the love of whatever u love or beleive in, do not make the comment that people will start hating on people for hiding their losses or whatever, because people will hate regardless of it being optional or not. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 07 2011 20:37 drsnuggles wrote: Starcraft Broodwar was fine at its time. It did not however had a world wide appeal to the masses. Just one country cought it.Good construction, but I have a hard time following some of your arguments. According to your logic, Starcraft 1 shouldn't be good for the masses because its too hard core, but how does that explain that in Korea so many people play the game to become pro at it? On April 07 2011 20:37 drsnuggles wrote: ... so you can hide your losses if you play an offrace? Why's that? Because you like to brag around with your stats. Everyone likes it, if he admits it or not. In SC1 and WC3 it was common to create a new acc upon improvement to bash some noobs and get a high ratio. You only showed the current acc to your online friends who not knew about the old accounts where you dropped to 48%.You say that you get lots of players to get a audience, but as you may see in some other poll about the rate of watching/actually playing, there are lots and lots of people out there who don't play at all and just watch pro-games..and also, many of the players who started playing the game at the beginning are still playing, even though the win-loss stats were still enabled. I would suggest that loss-statistics are disabled by default, but that it's possible to toggle them, so if you want to see your losses, you can do so. Also, add functions for off-racing please  The ladder system as of patch 1.3 is engineered to allow every active player to have something to show. It can be single player achievements. It's not a competetive league, may be with exception of Grand Master. It's a playground. The display of losses induces a mindset to avoid losses. But the mindset should be to learn from losses. | ||
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chocopan
Japan986 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 07 2011 20:30 Belligerentz wrote: I don't remember the exact wording at Blizzcon 2010, where someone from Blizz explained a bit about promotion. (System promotes you only when you are ready, meaning when your MMR stabilized.) In an extreme case this could mean you should intentionally throw some games to get promoted soon (to stabilize your MMR confidence interval.) Blizzard does not want you to throw games. Eventually the MMR will adapt to your real skill level and then you get into a new league. Blizzard's intention is that you just play and don't worry about win ratio.by seeing my losses i wouldn't have to make a mental check every time i lose just to think, hmm i'm still on a pretty nice ratio, awesome maybe i can keep this going as my MMR rises and maybe get a promotion. I think, your mental check should not be to avoid losses. It should be to learn from losses. In a real tournament of course you will seek to avoid losses by all means. Not so in the ladder. In fact, there are cases where I am somewhat happy that I lost someone because I have the replay and can analyze how he managed to win. | ||
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Hypatio
549 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 07 2011 20:46 Marksel wrote: Because the ladder system is designed that way. Unless you are on the very top, any big deviation from 50% results from too few games played yet.Why does everyone claim that w/l ration means nothing until you are at the highest level of play? On April 07 2011 21:25 Hypatio wrote: Wrong. Win ratio is no indicator of success. It is just a sign that the MMR for you has not yet properly adapted.That blizzard got rid of displaying losses was a dumb move, but it really doesn't matter because your win percentage is only a rough indicator of ladder success. | ||
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Marksel
Netherlands56 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:28 [F_]aths wrote: Because the ladder system is designed that way. Unless you are on the very top, any big deviation from 50% results from too few games played yet. Wrong. Win ratio is no indicator of success. It is just a sign that the MMR for you has not yet properly adapted. Funny how you contradict yourself First you say it means nothing, and now you say it means that your MMR has not yet properly adapted. This is exactly what I pointed out in my post, of which you quoted the point and gave a counter-argument based on the point, while completely ignoring the explenation around it, which does show that w/l ration does have quite a significant point, which is telling you wether or not your MMR has stabalised or not. If it hasn't, I want to keep playing until it has, so I see what league I belong in. | ||
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CKone
United Kingdom50 Posts
if someone wants to show off there win ratio they best be in masters anyway otherwise whats the point? if they have a big enuf win ratio in the lower leagues soon they will be promoted. if it did show win ratio's in lower leagues and someone said "i have a 70% win ratio in diamond" i would just wonder why they wernt in masters. its only in masters once there is no where to go that we can measure skill by win ratio's and so is the only place it need be shown. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
It just gives me a lot more motivation to play when I see some sort of a target (finish line) that I can aim for. | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:48 mustache wrote: the "casuals" that just play for some fun are probably never going to get platinum or even diamond. so why not block the losses only for those below gold or soemthing? and tbh, im not sure how many pro gamers evolve from this system. a progamer will become a pro gamer because he loves playing the game. and if he's not having fun because his win/loss ratio isnt good at the start, chances are he'll never amount to anything anyway. also even though there are more players im not sure how many progamers are actually new. most progamers are existing progamers that transfered from broodwar or warcraft 3. It seems the amount of noob casual players compared to the amount of actual new progamers is relativley low. I don't accept the premise here... I and many of my friends are very casual, playing for fun a few hours a week, and we are all top 8 diamond players. | ||
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DeCoder
Finland236 Posts
Besides, the ladder system is making sure everybody has an approximately 50% loss ratio anyway. If you want to find out the losses for any given player, just divide their wins by two. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:47 DeCoder wrote: I'm sort of liking the removal of the losses. It takes away some of the stress of laddering. Besides, the ladder system is making sure everybody has an approximately 50% loss ratio anyway. If you want to find out the losses for any given player, just divide their wins by two. It doesn't work that way unless the person has been placed correctly. But it's no big deal, since you can tell if a person has been placed correctly or not by seeing if they're fighting against higher ranked players. | ||
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VPC
United States135 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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Zechs
United Kingdom321 Posts
Bare in mind, most high level players use ladder for experimenting in the same way that new players use it for learning the game. It's a tool, if you want to use it, but as a measure of skill it is only slightly applicable. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:30 Marksel wrote: Funny how you contradict yourself First you say it means nothing, and now you say it means that your MMR has not yet properly adapted. This is exactly what I pointed out in my post, of which you quoted the point and gave a counter-argument based on the point, while completely ignoring the explenation around it, which does show that w/l ration does have quite a significant point, which is telling you wether or not your MMR has stabalised or not. If it hasn't, I want to keep playing until it has, so I see what league I belong in. I don't think W/L can even really tell you whether MMR has stabilised. It's just noise. Consider tossing a fair coin 10 times and looking at the heads to tails ratio. Sometimes you'll get the 5/5 split but certainly not always. Does a 7/3 split really say the coin is unfair? Or even a 10/0 split? Not really. It's variance. If you do this experiment a thousand times, you'll get a normal around 5/5. Probably the same for the league. If you plot all the W/L ratios on the ladder, you'll get a normal-ish distribution on 50%. If you happen to be at 70%, it's hard to distinguish from variance without knowing anything else. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:30 Marksel wrote: ... in a sense that in means nothing one should persuade.First you say it means nothing, On April 07 2011 21:30 Marksel wrote:and now you say it means that your MMR has not yet properly adapted. W/L ratio still has no point, not even for promotion. You need to beat better players, not just many players to get promoted. (Of course there is a correlation since when you beat many players, there are probably some better players in there, too.) You can even get promoted directly after you lost a game because that loss then stabilized your MMR confidence and qualified you for the promotion.This is exactly what I pointed out in my post, of which you quoted the point and gave a counter-argument based on the point, while completely ignoring the explenation around it, which does show that w/l ration does have quite a significant point, which is telling you wether or not your MMR has stabalised or not. If it hasn't, I want to keep playing until it has, so I see what league I belong in. If you played some hundred games, a skill increase or decrease will not affect the total ratio very much anyway. The average distance of a series of 5 losses or wins is just 62 games. Assuming the matchmaking works perfect and gives you exact 50% win chance every time, you will still have win- or loss streaks and therefore a non 50% ratio (unless you played alot) but this means nothing. The second issue with this is that many guys still consider the number of games, not percentage. With an increasing number of games played, the absolute distance to the exact 50% ratio will likely increase, too. You should not pay attention to the win ratio (or absolute difference to the 50% ratio.) | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 07 2011 22:01 theSAiNT wrote: Not really. It's variance. If you do this experiment a thousand times, you'll get a normal around 5/5. Probably the same for the league. If you plot all the W/L ratios on the ladder, you'll get a normal-ish distribution on 50%. This assumes that everyone plays against people that are exactly as skilled as they are. Which just isn't the case anymore if you IMPROVE while your opponents DON'T. This is exactly what the poster has pointed out and where he is completely correct. If you spend a lot of time studying replays, working on your play and stuff, then a rising win-% can tell you that you in fact ARE better than your current MMR indicates. Which means you will start playing against better players and ultimately get promoted. Without that you have to keep track of W/L basicly "on paper" to see if you indee win more than you lose...otherwise you have no way of telling if you are, in fact, "improving" relative to your opponents. | ||
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