EPTIf your points - bonus pool increase over time you're improving faster than the "average" active ladder player.
Why the Blizzard ladder is great - Page 9
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
lololol
5198 Posts
If your points - bonus pool increase over time you're improving faster than the "average" active ladder player. | ||
|
Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
| ||
|
ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On April 08 2011 00:06 Misanthrope wrote: I'm a 300 point diamond player, and a 68 point platinum player was 'favored' against me. I rolled him hard. The favored was consistent in the score screen. This was not ok. Please, PLEASE search up Comprehensive Ladder Guide, give that read, and then you'll understand the system was working PERFECTLY. | ||
|
Gospadin
United States84 Posts
| ||
|
Zaqwert
United States411 Posts
It's pretty clear to me the reason was 100% designed to make the ladder less "scary" The reason offered of "well, W/L can be misleading" is complete bunk. the total # of wins is just as misleading but it remains, why is that? Achievement points are about the most worthless and meaningless thing, but when I log on I see them displayed on the front page, largely and prominently. Division points are meaningless because they are a mix of real points (earned from wins) and fake welfare points, yet that's what the whole ladder is based around. The only number with any real meaning is the MMR but that's not shown anyway. So Blizz's reason "oh it was misleading" is basically a lie. They have to say that because they know they'll get torn to shreds if they just come out and say "We want a fake ladder designed to make people feel good and keep playing" when it's pretty clear that's what they've wanted the whole time. TL;DR Cliff Notes Fake ladder is fake. | ||
|
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote: To let the player see some progression so that he continuous to play.I disagree with the removal of the losses and I 100% disagree with the reason offered. It's pretty clear to me the reason was 100% designed to make the ladder less "scary" The reason offered of "well, W/L can be misleading" is complete bunk. the total # of wins is just as misleading but it remains, why is that? The win percentage is misleading as this thread proves. Many guys want an option to see their losses because they don't see how pointless the number of losses ist. On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote: Yes, why not?Achievement points are about the most worthless and meaningless thing, but when I log on I see them displayed on the front page, largely and prominently. I currently try to work out some vs. AI strats just to get some vs. AI achievements. This will not help me in multiplayer competition in any way but I still have fun. Why would you set a non-pro gamer into a real competetive environment? For most guys, playing a game should be relaxing and no proof of your gosu über skills. On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote: This is a good thing. Otherwise, ladder promotion would not be satisfying. Imagine your skill is about 40% of the total active playerbase, so you were top-rank silver but now got promoted to gold. With unbiased divisions you would keep a bottom position in gold. You would feel stuck and abandon the game. With the currend ladder you would be stuck in gold, too; but you would get a top rank in your season. You end with a milestone which rewards your for your activity. Battle.net only works well if enough people are online at any time.Division points are meaningless because they are a mix of real points (earned from wins) and fake welfare points, yet that's what the whole ladder is based around. If you seek real competition, you can participate in a tournament. The ladder is a service that allows you to play the multiplayer mode, not a system to see that your are the 72.844th best in your region. | ||
|
theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On April 07 2011 22:06 sleepingdog wrote: This assumes that everyone plays against people that are exactly as skilled as they are. Which just isn't the case anymore if you IMPROVE while your opponents DON'T. This is exactly what the poster has pointed out and where he is completely correct. If you spend a lot of time studying replays, working on your play and stuff, then a rising win-% can tell you that you in fact ARE better than your current MMR indicates. Which means you will start playing against better players and ultimately get promoted. Without that you have to keep track of W/L basicly "on paper" to see if you indee win more than you lose...otherwise you have no way of telling if you are, in fact, "improving" relative to your opponents. Actually, by construction, Battlenet matches you with people that are as skilled as you are. If you are improving, you will get matched with stronger and stronger opponents. As I said before, it's very hard to say anything about a rising W/L because it is probably just noise. | ||
|
Dekoth
United States527 Posts
First, I am not terribly good. I was very good in beta but have had little time to play since and my skill level has certainly taken a huge fall. I am ranked plat, but honestly consider myself marginal gold at best. I utterly hate the recent changes to the ladder. I have zero method now to tell how much I am improving as my play schedule has opened up some. Furthermore the argument that more people playing because they don't fear losses is complete bunk. Any player that is going to become a future pro is not going to quit the game just because they racked up a bunch of losses early. Players that become pro have a completely different mentality, one that your average casual player simply cannot comprehend. This applies too all games and why there will always remain a disparity between your casual player and your core gamers. The ladder change accomplished nothing. | ||
|
Savant
United States379 Posts
| ||
|
Zaqwert
United States411 Posts
Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against. The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob" People play becaue they just enjoy playing. SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games. You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game. No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. | ||
|
iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 08 2011 02:28 Zaqwert wrote: A ladder by it's very nature is competitive, this whole "we're going to have a ladder system that caters to everyone" is just not workable. Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against. The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob" People play becaue they just enjoy playing. SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games. You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game. No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues? | ||
|
HEROwithNOlegacy
United States850 Posts
If you are competing in the lower leagues and you are not able to view your loses I can see how that would take away one competitive aspect but in reality you are just playing the game against other players who are also trying to get higher leagues, If you are in the lowest league and you are happy about a W/L ratio against low level players than it would suck for those people to not be able to see loses. But If you want to truly get better you should take pride in each game that you play whether it be a win or loss. Take pride in executing a strategy well and winning with it, or holding off a timing push. I remember when before I was in masters my most proud moment was holding off my first 4 gate as a zerg. I think that overall hiding loses really is a good thing and let's people in lower leagues be excited about more important things than a meaningless W/L record on an online ladder. Be proud of winning a game by executing a build you practiced or having solid macro. | ||
|
TheRPGAddict
United States1403 Posts
| ||
|
Zaqwert
United States411 Posts
Why does SC2 have so few stats? Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to. Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race" How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same. Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves. It's insulting and dishonest IMO. | ||
|
Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
On April 08 2011 02:31 PJA wrote: Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues? I would say that people in bronze who play this game casually actually enjoy moving up the ladder more than the more competitive players who understand the MMR system and bonus pool. My bronze/silver friends just want to be able to go OMG im now top 20 in my league which really doesnt mean much in terms of "true" rating. | ||
|
Toxigen
United States390 Posts
In SC1, everyone could create a new account at any time to hide the inglorious past. But this promoted smurfing, and it is not fair to let mid-skilled players bash noobs. This is a really good point that a lot of people sometimes overlook. I remember Day9 talking about how he acted as a kid playing Starcraft for the first time and a lot of it struck home for me, too -- and one of those things was recreating battle.net IDs to make my win/loss ratio look good, disconnecting instead of taking losses, etc. A lot of the things that were wrong with that system are taken care of. While I do like being able to look at my record and see a positive win/loss ratio these days, I also realize that, deep down, as a high diamond (and not masters) it really doesn't matter. That ratio would TANK if I played mostly masters players anyway, so what information does it really tell me at the end of the day? | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote: The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth. Why does SC2 have so few stats? Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to. Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race" How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same. Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves. It's insulting and dishonest IMO. Well it didn't help that the Bnet SC2 web team was like 2 people (based on what I've heard), and the main guy who pulled all those awesome War3 stats is doing something else now. They still want to add detailed stats but they're going to want to pick and choose what is most relevant. Something like "TvZ win %" or "TvZ win % on Shakuras" would be relevant, so maybe that's an example of something they'll eventually update the website to accommodate. | ||
|
AT_Tack
Germany435 Posts
| ||
|
Lumpybd
United Kingdom118 Posts
While I have nothing to back this up with other than first hand observation, it seems quite clear to me that your average platinum player quite easily has a game count approaching 1k at this point. As such, the sample size becomes so large that you would need a significant win streak just to increase your ratio by a single percentage point. Even if you win 10 - 20 games in a row, your MMR will constantly be adjusting so you will be matched against more difficult opponents and your win percentage will start to drop again. It's only at the highest/lowest levels of play that your win ratio will ever be anything other than 50%. tl:dr: While it may fluctuate slightly, MMR will keep your win ratio at roughly 50%. You want to know how many games you have lost... just take the number of games you have won and you won’t be very far off. | ||
|
GiftPflanZe
Germany623 Posts
| ||
| ||
