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On April 01 2011 02:43 Insanious wrote:
Its different for each race...
Terran
T1 = Marines
T1.5 = Marauders and Hellions
T2 = Tanks, Vikings, Medivacs, banshees
T3 = Ravens, Thors, BCs, Ghosts
Zerg:
T1 = Zerglings
T1.5 = banes, roaches
T2 = Hydras, Mutalisks, Corrupters, overseers
T3 = Broodlords, Ultralisks, Infestors
Toss:
T1 = Zealot
T1.5 = Stalkers, Sentries
T2 = Observers, Immortals, DTs, Pheonix, Void Rayx, warpprism
T3 = HT, Collosus, Carrier, Mothership
Those are the tiers...
T1 = Needs only 1 building to make (Ex. Rax, Spawning pool, etc..)
T1.5 = Needs a tech building + starting building (Ex. Roach waren, Cyber core, tech lab)
T2 = Needs another tech building/ a new production facility (Ex. Robo bay, Lair, Factory)
T3 = Needs at least 3 building to be made (Ex. Ghosts need Rax, Tech lab, Ghost accademy. Ultras need Spawning pool, Hive, Ultralisk Cavern, Mothership needs Cyber core, Stargate, Fleetbeacon, Nexus)
Hellions aren't 1.5 by that logic...and when the system varies that much by races it's totally useless for comparison. Just say "he's teched to Starport/Factory" or "he's going Robo." Also tanks need Rax/Factory/tech lab but most wouldn't consider them T3, nor would they consider Vikings/Medivacs when they need three as well (rax/factory/starport). There's just too many inconsistencies in this sort of logic.
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the number of buildings doesn't necessarily work, because it doesn't always account for certain units being available very early due to building cost/speed... or the cost of unit.
for example you can get ghost a lot earlier than templar, but costing 150/150 each it won't be a safe investment until later on when the protoss/zerg have got templar or infestor etc.
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Is this thread for real?
Tiers are simple short-hand for what "tier" a unit comes in. Using terrans. Does it come from a barracks, your first unit producing structure T1, does it come from a barracks w/ a tech lab T1.5, does it come from a factory T2 or a starport T2 (considered T2 because while it requires a factory the tier concept applies only a step further beyond barracks for arbitrary reasons) does it require an additional building beyond the factory/starport T3. You run into things like ghosts, which people consider to be T2 because the building is in the advanced tab, but imo they're much like roaches and are more a T1.5 unit.
I don't see how this could ever be a big deal, someone earlier in the thread said it's just a shorthand, this is correct. It's a shorthand used by observers or people talking about the game to refer to the amount of tech investment (correlations with gas can be drawn here) is needed to reach that unit. It's not about how powerful a unit is, it's about the amount of tech time require to unlock said unit.
I get the feeling you know this, but wanted to shake a hornet's nest and be cool on the internet.
Edit: People are really, really being for real I guess. To expound... It's just a shortening of time required for people talking about the game to talk about it. That's it, there is no reference to power (although one may be implied b/c Tier 3 units take a lot of investment to get to) it's just a reference. This is not a big deal at all...
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On April 01 2011 02:35 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 02:28 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 02:17 bokeevboke wrote:On April 01 2011 02:01 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 01:54 lcl wrote:
its pretty easy to tell with Protoss and terran too
tier 1 is buildings that require only minerals
tier 2 requires gas (starport robo council, factory starport)
Tier 3 requires an additional building (fleet beacon, support bay, armory, fusion core)
its very clearly divided ^^ So hellions are the same tier as RAVENS? And thors are higher tier than ravens? Makes no sense, ravens need as much tech as thors Tiers make no sense, especially not when comparing different races. One base thor and one base colossus are quite viable, one base ultra is impossible,even two base ultra is. Ultras have a lot longer a tech route same with brood lords. BC's, carriers, brood lords, ultras, are true late game units, thors and colossi can be fielded from one base. To say that thors are the same tier as BC's is also nonsense, BC's are obviously higher. And that doesn't even account for the fact that a chargelot is a completely different unit than a zealot, same with burrowed roaches.. Ravens require tech lab, hence its tier 3. Medivac/Viking - tier 2. Okay, so ravens and bc's are bot tier 3? Makes no sense, BC's require an extra building. Also, marauders require a tech lab, so they are tier 2 now. Marauders same tier as medivacs and vikings? Makes no sense, no matter how you bend, twist, or turn it, tiers don't exist. terran: tier 1: barracks units tier 2: factory/starport units that require no extra building tier 3: factory/starport units that require extra building or could be straight up barracks -> factory -> starport. Hard to say. Also not sure what ghosts would fall under. I think most would consider them tier 2? protoss: tier 1: gateway units units that require no extra building (outside cybernetics core) tier 2: robo/stargate units that require no extra building tier 3: gateway/robo/stargate units that require extra building zerg: tier 1: hatchery units tier 2: lair units tier 3: hive units sound good? How can factory and staport units be the same tier as you you require a factory for a starport? Obviously it's higher up the tech tree?
And how on earth can a thor be the same tier as a battle cruiser? That makes no sense, the battle cruiser is the obvious end of the terran tech tree, the thor is not. You need a factory to get to BC's, you don't need a starport for thors.
Tiers are a terrible comparison between races that makes no sense, the tech trees work too dissimilar, protoss for instance needs a core for 'T2', zerg and terran need no such thing.
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It's just a way to verbally organize tech, why take it so seriously? Obviously each race has a range of low tech to high tech, tiers are just one way to express that. I thinks some people are WoW-phobic lol, and it's not from WoW, it's from WC3
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lol. And this is why Tiers should only apply to Zerg.
Everyone has some kind of different way to define Terran and Protoss "tiers" It gets confusing and stupid trying to get everyone to agree what is what.
Anyhow its not a huge deal in the long run. Its just crappy vocab that really shouldn't be used.
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I've always thought of it like this:
Zerg: Hatch = T1, Lair = T2, Hive = T3
Terran: Barracks = T1, Factory = T2, Starport = T3
Protoss: Gateway (and core) = T1, Robo/Stargate/Twilight Council = T2, Robo Bay/Fleet Beacon/Templar/Dark Shrine = T3
But that's just inside my head.
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It was used a lot in WC3 indeed. I don't see why you would have issues with it, it's just a different way of saying early/mid/late-game units.
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On April 01 2011 02:54 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 02:35 blabber wrote:On April 01 2011 02:28 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 02:17 bokeevboke wrote:On April 01 2011 02:01 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 01:54 lcl wrote:
its pretty easy to tell with Protoss and terran too
tier 1 is buildings that require only minerals
tier 2 requires gas (starport robo council, factory starport)
Tier 3 requires an additional building (fleet beacon, support bay, armory, fusion core)
its very clearly divided ^^ So hellions are the same tier as RAVENS? And thors are higher tier than ravens? Makes no sense, ravens need as much tech as thors Tiers make no sense, especially not when comparing different races. One base thor and one base colossus are quite viable, one base ultra is impossible,even two base ultra is. Ultras have a lot longer a tech route same with brood lords. BC's, carriers, brood lords, ultras, are true late game units, thors and colossi can be fielded from one base. To say that thors are the same tier as BC's is also nonsense, BC's are obviously higher. And that doesn't even account for the fact that a chargelot is a completely different unit than a zealot, same with burrowed roaches.. Ravens require tech lab, hence its tier 3. Medivac/Viking - tier 2. Okay, so ravens and bc's are bot tier 3? Makes no sense, BC's require an extra building. Also, marauders require a tech lab, so they are tier 2 now. Marauders same tier as medivacs and vikings? Makes no sense, no matter how you bend, twist, or turn it, tiers don't exist. terran: tier 1: barracks units tier 2: factory/starport units that require no extra building tier 3: factory/starport units that require extra building or could be straight up barracks -> factory -> starport. Hard to say. Also not sure what ghosts would fall under. I think most would consider them tier 2? protoss: tier 1: gateway units units that require no extra building (outside cybernetics core) tier 2: robo/stargate units that require no extra building tier 3: gateway/robo/stargate units that require extra building zerg: tier 1: hatchery units tier 2: lair units tier 3: hive units sound good? How can factory and staport units be the same tier as you you require a factory for a starport? Obviously it's higher up the tech tree? And how on earth can a thor be the same tier as a battle cruiser? That makes no sense, the battle cruiser is the obvious end of the terran tech tree, the thor is not. You need a factory to get to BC's, you don't need a starport for thors. Tiers are a terrible comparison between races that makes no sense, the tech trees work too dissimilar, protoss for instance needs a core for 'T2', zerg and terran need no such thing.
Who cares if it's not the same across the board? It's really, really easy to learn what the different tiers for the different races are, and I used to think they were really intuitive with small variations. Looks like some people just don't get it, or are a little bit more picky than the people who have been playing RTS' for the last decade.
Pre-edit because it just came to me
When you look at the flow chart in the game for each race you'll notice how it looks like a tree branching down. Each of these levels can be considered a tier if it is condensed, and while yes, starports are T3/what the hell ever, they're considered T2 b/c that simplifies things. This isn't groundbreaking, it's not like this tier system is the first to simplify things to make them easier to talk about while not EXACTLY hitting the nail on the head.
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On April 01 2011 02:54 Treemonkeys wrote:
It's just a way to verbally organize tech, why take it so seriously? Obviously each race has a range of low tech to high tech, tiers are just one way to express that. I thinks some people are WoW-phobic lol, and it's not from WoW, it's from WC3
Actually it's not from WC3, i remember playing games in the 90s where they'd use the word "tiers" (pretty sure i played a game on the SNES where they used the word "tier"), it's an actual word, not a gaming word.
I dont really mind, the only problem i have with Tier is when people pronounce it "tire or tires". I go crazy because of that 
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On April 01 2011 02:54 Treemonkeys wrote:
It's just a way to verbally organize tech, why take it so seriously? Obviously each race has a range of low tech to high tech, tiers are just one way to express that. I thinks some people are WoW-phobic lol, and it's not from WoW, it's from WC3 Pretty much, terminology should exist to clarify not to confuse. A term that means different things with different people is a useless term.
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^No one thinks the word "tier" is made up. The question is why it's applied to SC. And it's because there was a clear tier system in WC2. Town halls for both races upgraded like hatch does, and the units were clearly different "tiers"
Tier 1 was footmen, grunts, archers, trolls...
Tier 2 was knight and ogres which were much stronger than the tier 1 stuff
Tier 3 added casters like magi, ogre magi, paladin which were a huge step up from tier 2.
Everything blends much more in SC, but people like to pretend it doesn't. It's much more of a continuum rather than tiers.
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On April 01 2011 02:17 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 02:01 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 01:54 lcl wrote:
its pretty easy to tell with Protoss and terran too
tier 1 is buildings that require only minerals
tier 2 requires gas (starport robo council, factory starport)
Tier 3 requires an additional building (fleet beacon, support bay, armory, fusion core)
its very clearly divided ^^ So hellions are the same tier as RAVENS? And thors are higher tier than ravens? Makes no sense, ravens need as much tech as thors Tiers make no sense, especially not when comparing different races. One base thor and one base colossus are quite viable, one base ultra is impossible,even two base ultra is. Ultras have a lot longer a tech route same with brood lords. BC's, carriers, brood lords, ultras, are true late game units, thors and colossi can be fielded from one base. To say that thors are the same tier as BC's is also nonsense, BC's are obviously higher. And that doesn't even account for the fact that a chargelot is a completely different unit than a zealot, same with burrowed roaches.. requiring tech lab would make ravens tier 2.5 techincally. Ravens require tech lab, hence its tier 3. Medivac/Viking - tier 2.
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It's a useful way of grouping units based on how long it takes to get them in a game. Time is an important resource in SC2. If you stick with units that you can produce early in the game, you'll have a larger army, early map control, and options to expand or attack. If you opt to cut back on the easily accessed units in favor of teching to higher 'tiers', your army will likely be smaller, but it may be more cost efficient or tactically versatile. The 'tier' breakdown is a little rough around the edges, but it conveys an important concept.
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I can't believe people are shitting all over the word tier. This was a well accepted word in the broodwar days. It works to help describe the game or flow of the game. Did Day9 at some point say that the word tier is not useful? That's the only reason I can see so many people saying only noobs use the word -_-
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I'm about to blow all you guys' minds and shatter your perception of the world:
+ Show Spoiler +
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I dont see why people have a problem discussing and deciding tiers. They seem pretty obvious to me.
Zerg
T1=Hatch
T2=Lair
T3=Hive
Terran
T1=Barracks
T2=Factory
T3=Starport
Protoss
T1=Gateway
T2=Robo/Stargate/Council
T3=Support bay/Fleet Beacon/Dark Shrine/Templar Archives
Of course you need to keep in mind that not all tiers are equal. Terran can get to T3 super quick with 1-1-1, however in reality they also need addons and extra requirement buildings like Armory for thors, ghost academy for ghosts, and fusion core for battlecruisers. Most "tier" complaints I see come from Zerg, because they tend to slow their tech in order to drone heavily. But thats just kinda the way theyre built.
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On April 01 2011 02:59 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 02:54 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 02:35 blabber wrote:On April 01 2011 02:28 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 02:17 bokeevboke wrote:On April 01 2011 02:01 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On April 01 2011 01:54 lcl wrote:
its pretty easy to tell with Protoss and terran too
tier 1 is buildings that require only minerals
tier 2 requires gas (starport robo council, factory starport)
Tier 3 requires an additional building (fleet beacon, support bay, armory, fusion core)
its very clearly divided ^^ So hellions are the same tier as RAVENS? And thors are higher tier than ravens? Makes no sense, ravens need as much tech as thors Tiers make no sense, especially not when comparing different races. One base thor and one base colossus are quite viable, one base ultra is impossible,even two base ultra is. Ultras have a lot longer a tech route same with brood lords. BC's, carriers, brood lords, ultras, are true late game units, thors and colossi can be fielded from one base. To say that thors are the same tier as BC's is also nonsense, BC's are obviously higher. And that doesn't even account for the fact that a chargelot is a completely different unit than a zealot, same with burrowed roaches.. Ravens require tech lab, hence its tier 3. Medivac/Viking - tier 2. Okay, so ravens and bc's are bot tier 3? Makes no sense, BC's require an extra building. Also, marauders require a tech lab, so they are tier 2 now. Marauders same tier as medivacs and vikings? Makes no sense, no matter how you bend, twist, or turn it, tiers don't exist. terran: tier 1: barracks units tier 2: factory/starport units that require no extra building tier 3: factory/starport units that require extra building or could be straight up barracks -> factory -> starport. Hard to say. Also not sure what ghosts would fall under. I think most would consider them tier 2? protoss: tier 1: gateway units units that require no extra building (outside cybernetics core) tier 2: robo/stargate units that require no extra building tier 3: gateway/robo/stargate units that require extra building zerg: tier 1: hatchery units tier 2: lair units tier 3: hive units sound good? How can factory and staport units be the same tier as you you require a factory for a starport? Obviously it's higher up the tech tree? And how on earth can a thor be the same tier as a battle cruiser? That makes no sense, the battle cruiser is the obvious end of the terran tech tree, the thor is not. You need a factory to get to BC's, you don't need a starport for thors. Tiers are a terrible comparison between races that makes no sense, the tech trees work too dissimilar, protoss for instance needs a core for 'T2', zerg and terran need no such thing. Who cares if it's not the same across the board? It's really, really easy to learn what the different tiers for the different races are, and I used to think they were really intuitive with small variations. Looks like some people just don't get it, or are a little bit more picky than the people who have been playing RTS' for the last decade. Pre-edit because it just came to me When you look at the flow chart in the game for each race you'll notice how it looks like a tree branching down. Each of these levels can be considered a tier if it is condensed, and while yes, starports are T3/what the hell ever, they're considered T2 b/c that simplifies things. This isn't groundbreaking, it's not like this tier system is the first to simplify things to make them easier to talk about while not EXACTLY hitting the nail on the head. No it's not 'easy' have you seen the thread? every person has a different opinion about tiers, especially if Starport is T3 or T2. Terminology is only useful insofar people mean the same thing with it.
It's only meaningful for Zerg, because people all agree there.
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Tiers were from wc3, where every race had an upgradeable town hall (like zerg in sc). Your 'tier' determined your access to tech/production structures.
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On April 01 2011 01:51 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 01:50 deerpark87 wrote:
Its the WoW effect spreading to sc2. tiers were used in BW, how do you justify that?
No they weren't and I don't know why people believe this still. It's what happens when you bring different communities together.
-_-
It's as mind blowing as people calling a timing attack a push.
Ugh.
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