Note: For SKILL level I mean individual playing skills not commentating skills. Please don't start some "XXX is better than XXX" commentator fanboy wars / dick measuring contests...
I know there are many up and coming SC2 commentators who upload vods etc but I usually find the ones who play best as the most credible ones since they have skills to back it up instead of being like an arm-chair general. IdrA was really good when he's substituting Tastosis during Blizzcon and even though he wasn't as eloquent as other casters his words+commentaries seem to weigh 1000x heavier due to his reputation and skill level.
I realize Artosis is pretty good since he qualified for the 1st GSL. But I reckon Day9 should pretty good due to his analytical skills and winning WCG USA 2005 (thought it was a long time and I haven't seen Day9's SC2 replays besides the BETA showmatch).
Or Psy? I saw him beating Piqliq before.
Chill was really good in Broodwar but I haven't seen him upload SC2 tutorial videos
Really want to look for more skilled casters. Plz name the strongest one...
Artosis is quite good. Dunno about Day9 but he won a wcg so he's prolly good too. PsY is decent, beating Piqliq is not really an achievement. Dunno about tasteless, he's prolly better than Psy, but nothign special either I guess. Chill is low masters I believe.
it depends on who you consider a commentator. Gretorp and iNcontroL are very strong players but they aren't as committed to commentating as artosis. However, PsY and Artosis are perhaps the strongest players who are also top commentators. Day9 is a total dark horse, nobody knows what his real skill level is at so I wouldn't even bother discussing that.
I don't think Day9 has shown any SC2 results. He's probably busy with other stuff to play too much. I hope he plays ladder or something in one of his dailys FPVOD ftw! If I'm wrong please let me know where to see his games :D
Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Quite surprised of people saying Artosis oversince Artosis said Day9 is his biggest rival. You guys seem to imply that Artosis can wipe the floor with Day9 in a Bo5
Edit: NVM I didn't know Day9 attends school. So Artosis def. has more practice hours than him...
I would imagine its Artosis, closely followed by maybe day9 and tasteless, then chill maybe?
I think when day9 starts competing again (he said on SotG he intends to once school is over) he will probably be the best, he already promised to continue knocking artosis out of every tournament they play ;p
I assume there are less well known casters out there who are top players, and there are top players like iNcontrol who cast, and I guess if you include those, iNc or gretorp are prolly the best, simply because i can't think of anyone else who plays at the pro level and casts on the side... most of them cast and play on the side.
You can't know who is the best, most commentators play on smurf accounts (for good reason...). If you take laddering as the measure of skill of course.
Depends on what qualifies as commentators, since there are quite a few "hybrids" on the scene. People like gretorp or Jim (I don't exactly remember his tag, sorry).
But when it comes to people who are mainly recognized for their casting, I would say something along the lines of Artosis -> Rotterdam -> Day9/Tasteless (while Day[9] might be the overall better player I have a feeling he isn't playing much).
I don't know about chill, he kind of peaked during TSL1 but doesn't play much anymore. I also seem to remember something about Psy being decent, but Í can't say for sure.
Hard to say, we know that Artosis was rather good back in beta but since he started commentating for GOM a lot he probably didn't play as much but I would still go with him. Day9 is interesting, no one really knows how good he actually is.
Edit:
On March 25 2011 00:47 Dubpace wrote: Gretorp and Sheth...
<3
Well if include them as "commentators" they are obviously very good, however, most would say they are mainly progamers just like incontrol.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
They obviously try to make it exciting for the casual viewer lol
i'm sure if someone knew day[9] smurf name they could find his replays and see his skill level. i know his main is in plat though he does not use it due to wanting to be left alone to try new things without being subject to having his every move followed.
otherwise i think its artosis. i think he has the right amount of everything. though i am seeing a lot of higher level players like adebisi cast, and they do decently
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
What? Artosis has a terrible understanding of the game? Mind blown.
As for the OP's question: Artosis. He qualified for GSL, a lot of "pro's" who play the game more than him can't/couldn't even accomplish that. (I know I know, bracket difficulty blah blah blah).
On March 25 2011 00:47 ppshchik wrote: Quite surprised of people saying Artosis oversince Artosis said Day9 is his biggest rival. You guys seem to imply that Artosis can wipe the floor with Day9 in a Bo5
Edit: NVM I didn't know Day9 attends school. So Artosis def. has more practice hours than him...
As far as I know, that rivalry goes back to BW and has nothing to do with SC2.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
You expect them to make every call right?
Artosis gets things right 99% of the time, how many times has a game been 2 minutes in and he says "I bet x goes for this and his opponent does this" and then is proven exactly right 30 secs later.
When they talk about a nexus being dead and it gets saved, 80% of the time it doesn't get saved, the other 20% the player either isn't paying attention to his army and it starts attacking the opponents rallying units instead or he actively decides to kill the new army before it kills his, instead of finishes the nexus. Or more often the nexus survives with 30 hp....
Vikings are terrible on the ground, but if you have 16 of them and the opponent has 6 stalkers ofc they win....... if you land 6 vikings against 6 equal HP ground units... they lose.... just because they win a fight every now and then doesn't mean they are good on the ground.
PsY is pretty good, not a star player but better than Destiny at least. (That, or he only gives us his most stellar matches, which wouldn't surprise me.)
But like I said, his understanding and insights are really good, he's a great tactician even though is micro and mechanics aren't stellar, and tactics and and strategy are mainly taught, while mechanics are trained by practice and practice. You can't explain to someone how to have good mechanics, it comes with time (or not).
You know, I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been some grand crusade to discover what accounts Day9 plays on. It almost makes me think the internet is respecting his privacy in not wanting to share that info, which would be pretty awesome.
Also, it'd be pretty awesome if we started building stat sheets for casters: "Day9's got a solid 10 for Analytics, but his 6 Playing Skills can't compete with inControl's 9". We could use game knowledge, analysis, humor, playing skill...
I totally think people are underrating Tasteless here. He may not have the same deep knowledge of the game that artosis has, but with his EG coaching and general metagame knowledge, he's definitely a baller.
If nothing else, the tasteless build always works.
Artosis/Tasteless... how long have they been in Korea? Playing/talking with top pros, commentating on the highest level of matches, playing on the toughest ladder, etc.
Artosis and Day[9] for sure, hence the quality commentating. You can't just understand the game without playing it up to a certain level.
Also compare Tasteless's commenting back in the BW days when he was 100% active player. He is still good but the sharpness and the deep comments of a trained player's eye are long gone.
*Edit: I'm not saying that you ONLY need to play the game to be a good commentator, there are other parameters involved in this. Like being able to speak English properly and having a good sense of humor and being able to say what you are thinking in a way that is understood by everyone.
On March 25 2011 00:52 CidO wrote: incontrol day9 (he has smurf accounts no one knows the id's of for obvious reasons) artosis
Day9 may be potentially high skill, but he doesn't get a lot of playing time, which is what you need to stay up with the game and current trends and builds.
TBH I think Day9 isn't as good a analytical caster as people give him credit for. I think he's a great play-by-play caster because he adds a lot of excitement to the games, but he seems behind in the "meta-game"? He probably doesn't play enough so his understanding of the game isn't as good as Artosis.
It's definitely Artosis. The only reason Artosis isn't in the GSL competing in every season is because of the fact that he and Tasteless were the only people available for English casting, forcing him to spend a great deal of his time commentating rather than playing. He really is a great player and, as we all know, understands the game far more than most.
On March 25 2011 00:54 bobq wrote: You know, I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been some grand crusade to discover what accounts Day9 plays on. It almost makes me think the internet is respecting his privacy in not wanting to share that info, which would be pretty awesome.
Also, it'd be pretty awesome if we started building stat sheets for casters: "Day9's got a solid 10 for Analytics, but his 6 Playing Skills can't compete with inControl's 9". We could use game knowledge, analysis, humor, playing skill...
Well the thing is, if day doesn't give people his char name, how will they ever find it? I'm sure some of the pro's know his smurf accounts, he has one for each race, but they also have their own and they know not to reveal someone else's smurf account..... I would assume many masters (gonna assume day9 is masters purely based off his BW background and how much time he spends thinking about the game) have played against him and been completely unaware.
Also, I think as much as we'd like to know his smurf accounts, we all love him far too much to expose him.
On March 25 2011 00:58 GGPope wrote: It's definitely Artosis. The only reason Artosis isn't in the GSL competing in every season is because of the fact that he and Tasteless were the only people available for English casting, forcing him to spend a great deal of his time commentating rather than playing. He really is a great player and, as we all know, understands the game far more than most.
Yea he lost in the last qualification game for Code A last season. So I mean if he played full time he should be able to make it. Although qualification is a bit random.
Gretorp,Sheth and Incontrol are sponsored players on pro gaming teams,u cant count them as commentators,i mean if anyone who ever casted a game gets to be called a "commentator" than its Idra for casting few gsl games and TLO for casting IEM finals.
Now for the real commentators id say its Day9,Artosis and Tasteless are all there,but since they dont play much i guess we cant know whos better.
Im going to have to agree with the masses and say Artosis. He's the closest anyone has gotten caster-wise in the GSL. I dont think anyone really knows how good Day9 is, so I cant count him. I would say incontrol....but I dont know, I just dont view him as a caster quite yet. Probably wont until the NASL because he's just starting out as a caster. Part of me thinks Artosis has better PvP than incontrol too =P
Only one way to find out, do a casters tournament, I think it's been brought up before but how cool would it be to see some of those guys going at, Chill vs Day9 vs Artosis vs Husky vs Gretorp vs incontrol vs etc etc
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game
Wait... you're trolling right?!?!
Artosis is one of top players in understanding the game. I also believe that because of this if he had the time to just sit down and mass games he would be able to compete with the 'progamers'.
Probably Artosis, then Day9, then Psy. I know HD is decent, mid level Masters, so he isn't that bad. If they all trained to max, then it would probably be an epic slugfest between Day9 and Artosis, as both of them would be pretty boss.
artosis. day9 could probably tell you everything there is to know about brood war, but he has, for the most part, retired as a player. artosis is still playing, and he's far more in touch with the metagame than anyone else. he also plays two races, so he has a first hand understanding of 5/6 of the matchups.
Out of the full-time commentators, it's Artosis for sure. In fact, even if Inc, Sheth and Gretorp did count as commentators, I wouldn't be so quick to rank any of them above Artosis skill-wise.
Day9 still has the most potential though, his accomplishments and reputation in BW shouldn't be taken lightly. Besides, if Artosis can still do it, that only means Day9 can do it better. =P
Don't know much about Tasteless now, and he didn't really shine in BW either, so at this point I can't imagine him competing seriously.
incontrol, gretorp, sheth, tlo and more have all casted so it's just the question about where you draw the limit at player-caster or caster-player. I'd say Artosis because he's a professional caster and we're made to think he's somewhat skilled at least;) but I don't think he's in as good a shape as the guys I mentioned earlier in the post so just pick your definition.
As far as regular commentators go (therefore not including the likes of Idra and TLO), I'd say Artosis with maybe incontrol getting an honorable mention. I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level. I believe he will probably be very good once he goes into full-time progaming, but as of now, he most likely lacks practice and is not that great of a player, which is why I think he refuses to show games of himself playing.
I'd say Artosis when speaking about actual play, however Day9 is on par with him if not more advanced when it comes to understanding the game and the flow of the metagame. Also, I doubt once day9 graduates he'll spend all his time playing SC2 as many of you suggest - I have a good feeling Blizzard will pick him up
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
They obviously try to make it exciting for the casual viewer lol
Exciting by saying that it's over?
They're all the time 'Yeah, we could pretend that it's not over to make it more exciting, but he actually has 0% chance of coming back'. -> comes back.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
You expect them to make every call right?
I expect him to not say 'There is 0% chance of him coming back, trust me guys, this game is over, some of you noobs might think at home 'But what if he ...', but no, it's actually over.' And then he comes back.
Artosis gets things right 99% of the time, how many times has a game been 2 minutes in and he says "I bet x goes for this and his opponent does this" and then is proven exactly right 30 secs later.
It's not hard to get that right 99% of the time and he'smore like 95%.
Recognising when a game is totally over is quite easy actually, people do it all the time on ladder, without third person view even, it's when they gg.
When they talk about a nexus being dead and it gets saved, 80% of the time it doesn't get saved, the other 20% the player either isn't paying attention to his army and it starts attacking the opponents rallying units instead or he actively decides to kill the new army before it kills his, instead of finishes the nexus. Or more often the nexus survives with 30 hp....
Watch the teamleague, MC versus SlayersWhatshisname. He said 'there is 0% chance this nexus is going to live', MC ends up holding it off very easily and watching it I was like 'Nahh, that nexus is going to survive very easily.'.
Vikings are terrible on the ground, but if you have 16 of them and the opponent has 6 stalkers ofc they win....... if you land 6 vikings against 6 equal HP ground units... they lose.... just because they win a fight every now and then doesn't mean they are good on the ground.
No, vikings are decent on the ground because they do 12 dps on the ground (1 armour redux) and do 10 dps in the air versus unarmoured and 14 versus armoured, both getting double armour reduction.
Vikings are for instance actually on equal footing with stalkers on the ground, which wins in equal numbers depends on target acquisition and concave. And yes, Vikings are more expensive, but they can fly away, stalkers can't. Vikings are by no means 'terrible' on the ground. Also, stalkers receive a penalty versus unarmoured units, vikings do not. 8 vikings beat 16 marines on the ground hands down, some green vikings left, only one dies in unit tester. However 8 stalkers versus 16 marines again depends on random target acquisition who comes out ahead.
PsY knows this and pointed it out in a video. I once made a thread here about this situation, my hypothesis is that the viking attack animation looks weak, and therefore it gives people the subconscious idea that it is weak. (not to mention that few people actually land them).
If you think that Vikings are terrible on the ground I have some doubts about your own understanding of the game and by extension ability to judge that of others, there is neither a statistical nor an empirical justification for this. They perform similarly to stalkers against armoured targets and a lot better against unarmoured targets on the ground, well worth the extra 25/25 price tag for their ability to lift off and fly away.
Artosis however is very good in making it appear he knows a lot by just talking analytical all the time, quite often he's also wrong or is really prone to 'hipster reasoning' ("I love what he's doing, because it's never been done before!") Let's face it, the guy loves every protoss who doesn't go 2base colossus, not because it's not that good (he's desperately trying to find a justification why it's bad, kind of ironical since he called the unit imbalanced and overpowered), but simply because it's trite and everyone does it.
Also, back at the beginning of GSL 5 he didn't even know why you would get armour against terran as protoss, he wasn't sure how to explain that San got armour first, surely this is the standard and people have figured this out months ago?
On March 25 2011 01:16 Sein wrote: I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level. I believe he will probably be very good once he goes into full-time progaming, but as of now, he most likely lacks practice and is not that great of a player, which is why I think he refuses to show games of himself playing.
Not practicing doesn't make you a less good player, it just means you're out of shape and can't compete seriously.
If somebody was a top player at some point, and he's not too old (which Sean isn't), it's not something that just goes away. Couple of months with proper motivation is all that's needed.
In all honesty, I do think a lot of newer fans mention Day9 only because of his exposure in the community. However, I personally consider an accomplished top foreign BW player to easily have what it takes to rank above most active competitors in SC2 nowadays if he was serious about it and motivated to do it.
Artosis has highest game knowledge I think. Not only he is decent player he is playing / commentating in korea and has seen hundreds of different builds / strateigies etc.
You people are totally overrating Day[9], its obvious even from his casting/dailies that he isn't actually playing the game much at all. Like Incontrol said on one SOTG, he sometimes cringes at Day9 casting simply because he's not keeping up with metagame and says things that miss the mark. I have huge respect for Day's dedication on getting his education finished and doing so much for e-sports at the same time, but its obvious he casts using his amazing "common RTS sense" (which is an area where only Artosis can rival him) instead of intricate SC2 knowledge.
As for casters who are currently very potent players: Artosis, Incontrol, maybe Gretorp. I'd rate Incontrol a notch above the other 2 as a player.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one. I think it was season 2 where he was saying "14 hatch doesn't work anymore" and then the zerg proceeds to hold 14 hatch perfectly fine every game rofl. He's really good but he also just bases too much on his own skill and experience and acts like he knows all.
Man Day9 could be so baller, I think once he graduates he could be insanely good. That is if he decides to put in the time to getting his mechanics up.
I would also say Artosis and Incontrol. But I think Artosis is the better commentator of the two however, commentating is not only about knowledge of the game, but to package it in an entertaining and educational way. .
For people who are full-time commentators, Artosis. Although I'm really curious to see how good Tasteless actually is. I mean when Day9 was up there (as a player) so was Tasteless. Also, Tasteless seems to actually be playing the game, whereas Day9 really isnt, and Tasteless is playing on Korea.
Straight up gameplay...probably going to have to say Artosis and incontrol? i would love to say day9 but i havnt really seen him lol, but i'm sure he would be quite impressive if he had the time to practice
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one.
Pretty much, he makes bad call after bad call. Now this wouldn't be so bad if he said 'MC is gonna have a hard time with this!', but he says 'There is 0% chance MC can hold this, now, some of you noobs may think 'what if he does ...', but no, trust me, there is 0% chance.', and then he holds it with minimal losses. =/ Never gotten why Kelly gets all the burn when Nick and Dan really make bad calls with supreme confidence all day.
And also, like I said, he tends to have 'hipster reasoning', he seems to fall for 'this is original / not done before, thus it is good.' a lot, the only reason he thinks 2base colossus is bad is because it's trite, and then he tries to come up with justifications like costs and transitions which are really ill-argued to justify his hipsterosity.
Note that I also don't 2base colossus or colossus that much at all really for the exact same reason, it's trite, I like to be different, but I'm not going to pretend that this build used by high class players like Tester who play with huge amounts of money on the line is actually 'bad', and I'd probably use it more if there were money on the line for me too.
On March 25 2011 01:16 Sein wrote: I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level.
Well we at least know that he's in masters, and we know that he is still buddies / practice partners with some great players. Is he at the "very top level"? Perhaps with practice he could be.
From my understanding, Day[9] doesn't want to reveal any information about his playing because he feels it would change how people judge him as a caster. The rumours that he might start playing again when he's finished at university are intriguing though, as that means if/when we DO see Day9 playing again he's going to be hotsauce :D
I'd LOVE to see a shoutcaster tournament (though who would cast it....?) - I'd pay good money to see Husky get hulksmashed
By far and i mean by lightyears, Artosis. It is a good question how good day9 could be, probably very good, but with college and flying around the world and doin his show no way he could even come close to competitve gaming as a player right now. Although who knows, he plays on smurf accounts, but im pretty damn sure Artosis is # 1 among regular commentators. Ofc, recently you have many pros commentating a bit here and there, but i dont count them
On March 25 2011 01:16 Sein wrote: I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level.
I'd LOVE to see a shoutcaster tournament (though who would cast it....?) - I'd pay good money to see Husky get hulksmashed
Husky's understanding of the game is pathetic. He's really a person I think I can hang out with though, the way he likes trolls, how he never gets angry, the way he responded in the thread about TSL2 abusers, I like people who don't have a large sense of 'justice' and are hard to get angry and just brush it off.
But really, his balance insinuations which are often due to his own terrible misunderstanding of the game tend to be some-what annoying. ('phoenices don't counter vikings, you need void rays, as they do bonus damage to armoured', WOT?)
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one.
Pretty much, he makes bad call after bad call. Now this wouldn't be so bad if he said 'MC is gonna have a hard time with this!', but he says 'There is 0% chance MC can hold this, now, some of you noobs may think 'what if he does ...', but no, trust me, there is 0% chance.', and then he holds it with minimal losses. =/ Never gotten why Kelly gets all the burn when Nick and Dan really make bad calls with supreme confidence all day.
And also, like I said, he tends to have 'hipster reasoning', he seems to fall for 'this is original / not done before, thus it is good.' a lot, the only reason he thinks 2base colossus is bad is because it's trite, and then he tries to come up with justifications like costs and transitions which are really ill-argued to justify his hipsterosity.
Note that I also don't 2base colossus or colossus that much at all really for the exact same reason, it's trite, I like to be different, but I'm not going to pretend that this build used by high class players like Tester who play with huge amounts of money on the line is actually 'bad', and I'd probably use it more if there were money on the line for me too.
Yeah exactly. He also comes across as a person who just enjoys acting and being perceived smart which bites him in the ass when he acts way too sure and then is proven wrong. Personally I think it makes the cast more entertaining, so it's all good and maybe intentional, but he does in fact make bad calls all the time.
As a 'pure' commentator, meaning that the person has no history as a pro player, but instead is a dedicated commentator that has improved his game while commentating, I will defenitely say HDstarcraft..
Ofc both Tasteless, Artosis, Day9, InControL are on another level, but they're all former pro's that switched or partially switched to commentating
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one. I think it was season 2 where he was saying "14 hatch doesn't work anymore" and then the zerg proceeds to hold 14 hatch perfectly fine every game rofl. He's really good but he also just bases too much on his own skill and experience and acts like he knows all.
What on earth do you think he should base it on then? Artosis is a student of the game, and if he can't draw conclusions on what has previously worked or past results, what do you think a knowledgeable commentator is supposed to do?
Surprising new builds and responses are supposed to fool good players, including commentators. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be as effective.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one.
Pretty much, he makes bad call after bad call. Now this wouldn't be so bad if he said 'MC is gonna have a hard time with this!', but he says 'There is 0% chance MC can hold this, now, some of you noobs may think 'what if he does ...', but no, trust me, there is 0% chance.', and then he holds it with minimal losses. =/ Never gotten why Kelly gets all the burn when Nick and Dan really make bad calls with supreme confidence all day.
And also, like I said, he tends to have 'hipster reasoning', he seems to fall for 'this is original / not done before, thus it is good.' a lot, the only reason he thinks 2base colossus is bad is because it's trite, and then he tries to come up with justifications like costs and transitions which are really ill-argued to justify his hipsterosity.
Note that I also don't 2base colossus or colossus that much at all really for the exact same reason, it's trite, I like to be different, but I'm not going to pretend that this build used by high class players like Tester who play with huge amounts of money on the line is actually 'bad', and I'd probably use it more if there were money on the line for me too.
Yeah exactly. He also comes across as a person who just enjoys acting and being perceived smart which bites him in the ass when he acts way too sure and then is proven wrong.
I don't know if he wants to appear smart or is just like 'fuck, they are paying me to be analytical, what can I say, what can I say?', but he does fill a lot of the time talking with convoluted analytical talk which in the end often isn't true. That, or just simply bad calls.
Personally I think it makes the cast more entertaining, so it's all good and maybe intentional, but he does in fact make bad calls all the time.
I don't really mind either, he admits his wrong-ness when he's proven wrong.
But his understanding of the game is greatly overstated, he just likes to come up with convoluted strategical explanations and analyses which are often made of air or disproven later on.
Also, the hipster reasoning man, that's kind of painful how he's trying to rationalize his hatred for 2base colossus, be a man and just admit that you hate it because everyone does it, there is no gameplay rationalisation.
I mean, I'm kind of hipster in this, I used to get ht when it was still underground, now I don't get these either and take on terrans with mass chargelots, immortals and kickarse forcefields. When this gets popular I'll probably switch to mass phoenix or something. I just like to be original in this.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one. I think it was season 2 where he was saying "14 hatch doesn't work anymore" and then the zerg proceeds to hold 14 hatch perfectly fine every game rofl. He's really good but he also just bases too much on his own skill and experience and acts like he knows all.
What on earth do you think he should base it on then? Artosis is a student of the game, and if he can't draw conclusions on what has previously worked or past results, what do you think a knowledgeable commentator is supposed to do?
Surprising new builds and responses are supposed to fool good players, including commentators. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be as effective.
He shouldn't be that confident in his judgement and use phrasings like '0% chance he'll hold this.', after which he proceeds to hold it with minimal losses.
Also, my criticism isn't even the bad calls or the phrasing, but the fact that he tries to rationalise his inner hipster too much with convoluted and nonsensical explanations.
He also seems to often in hindsight concoct that there was some brilliant plan by some player while most likely it just rolled that way and they got lucky and they didn't plan it all ahead.
To be fair, when Artosis said there was no way he was gonna hold this it was because had the marines actually gotten there when it looked like they were going to there would have been no way. Mc bought himself a huuuuuge amount of time with those 3 stalkers.
While I agree that they do make some too definitive, such as the there is no way he can hold this, its always based just on what he is seeing at the moment.
And about collosi, just because alot of pro's do it doesnt mean its the best. Season 2 was full of marine scv all ins, didnt mean it was the best... meant it was working cause people couldnt defend it. He brings up plenty of reasons he doent think its that great, mostly how much collosi cost off of two base and how if 1-2 of them get sniped its pretty much gg.
On March 25 2011 01:41 ELA wrote: As a 'pure' commentator, meaning that the person has no history as a pro player, but instead is a dedicated commentator that has improved his game while commentating, I will defenitely say HDstarcraft..
Ofc both Tasteless, Artosis, Day9, InControL are on another level, but they're all former pro's that switched or partially switched to commentating
It's extremely difficult to commentate and analyse the game simultaneoulsly. I've commentated for a couple years now and played Starcraft for over 10 and I still struggle to analyse the state of the game while listening to another commentator while preparing what I'm going to say.
Further, it's easy to look like a fool when you have to make a call on the battle. If you say in your head "MC will win this fight" and then he gets destroyed, it's easy to forget that entire situation. When you hear someone else say it out loud and then it's wrong, it's very memorable.
On March 25 2011 00:40 ppshchik wrote: Or Psy? I saw him beating Piqliq before.
No he didn't, he just played him.
He is damn good though. Not having much points on ladder doesn't tell us anything. Also, like someone said, you should define "commentator". If you count the pros in, I think IdrA and DeMuslim.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
Artosis is often regarded as the best commentator in terms of understanding the game....not sure where you came up with that. You might be thinking sololy tasteless, who often makes the wrong call.
You only need to watch all GSLs to come up with that. Artosis does it all the time - he consistently underestimates what players are able to hold off and do, though he is much better now compared to season one. I think it was season 2 where he was saying "14 hatch doesn't work anymore" and then the zerg proceeds to hold 14 hatch perfectly fine every game rofl. He's really good but he also just bases too much on his own skill and experience and acts like he knows all.
What on earth do you think he should base it on then? Artosis is a student of the game, and if he can't draw conclusions on what has previously worked or past results, what do you think a knowledgeable commentator is supposed to do?
Surprising new builds and responses are supposed to fool good players, including commentators. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be as effective.
People were saying he rarely makes bad calls and even blaming the bad calls on tatesless so all I was saying is that artosis does in fact make bad calls all the time. He's still a great commentator and I love the archon style.
On March 25 2011 01:54 Chill wrote: It's extremely difficult to commentate and analyse the game simultaneoulsly. I've commentated for a couple years now and played Starcraft for over 10 and I still struggle to analyse the state of the game while listening to another commentator while preparing what I'm going to say.
Further, it's easy to look like a fool when you have to make a call on the battle. If you say in your head "MC will win this fight" and then he gets destroyed, it's easy to forget that entire situation. When you hear someone else say it out loud and then it's wrong, it's very memorable.
I wouldn't doubt all this, but we were comparing commentators relatively to each other. Other commentators do this less so than Tastosis.
I mean, maybe they think it and don't say it, but part of understanding the game is understanding your own understanding of the game. If you feel the confidence that your own understanding is accurate while it is not it cannot be that good of an understanding. Whereas if you might have a hunch in your mind but you are humble about your understanding and know that it is not accurate enough to voice it, in the end this improves your understanding. The wise man knows there is much he does not know.
As far as understanding goes I'm still a big fan of PsY though, his explanations are to the point and really make sense and often deal in simple numbers, he often pauses the game to look at numbers (something you obviously cannot do in GSL, I realize), does the math and explains a simple logic that's hard to fail, Artosis often comes with very complicated and convoluted logic that depends on perspective and is quite fuzzy and could be either way quite simply.
Or maybe he doesn't per se understand more than Artosis or Day[9], but he doesn't talk about things he doesn't understand either, relating back to the above, he doesn't try to offer wild and convoluted explanations to a lot of stuff and just admits that he's not sure about what is going on or doesn't talk about it. And most importantly, he doesn't try to rationalize his inner hipster that much.
On March 25 2011 01:38 Zedex wrote: You can guess all you like, but the most fun and effective way to find out is host a tournament. Although if I had to guess I'd say Artosis.
The question is somewhat subjective in itself, mainly because a fair portion of top players do occasional commentating, incontrol, sheth, and gretorp come to mind (yes I know there are many others), but they aren't exactly "full-time" commentators.
Having said that there are very few commentators that can be declared as doing so full-time, at least for English speaking commentators, the only ones I think of that make a living off of it are Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, TotalBiscuit, Husky, HD, and maybe 10 more max that I have forgotten or don't know of. And we all know Artosis is the best out of those, although noone has really seen Day9 play.
To be fair though I don't really think you need to be a top 200 player to commentate, although some will disagree you can be pretty bad at the game and commentate it really well, a lot of bad players know they are bad because they have a good understanding of the game.
TL;DR, Artosis is the best, but it doesn't mean other casters are worse at commentating.
The best fulltime commentator has to be Artosis. Tasteless has to be good aswell because I remember that somebody said in an interview that idra would practice with tasteless for GSL.
I have never seen a replay from Tasteless but he is apparently Master Korean and I have yet to see anything that points out that Artosis>Tasteless (or the opposite). Tasteless is ment to do the play by play...
On March 25 2011 02:27 Eppa! wrote: I have never seen a replay from Tasteless but he is apparently Master Korean and I have yet to see anything that points out that Artosis>Tasteless (or the opposite). Tasteless is ment to do the play by play...
The only information that we have on Tasteless is that he always opens with Stargate if he sees a Techlab on first Barracks in PvT (one of the many Tasteless builds), and he wins with this 100% of the time (according to the GSTL cast yesterday). If this is true, then he probably has 75%+ winrate in PvT and is top of the Korean ladder.... wait...... what?
depends who you consider a caster. regardless i believe day9 is probally the best allaround. his theory is one of the highest in sc2, and he still is able to play enough to not let his mechanics get rusty. i would estimate day9 is around 3900-4k points on all of his accounts (z,t,p)
artosis has insanely good theory, however, he is so tied up that he barely has time to practice (therefore not his best mechanics), his CURRENT mmr places him against 3700-3800 players on ladder but you have to remember the american ladder is a cheese fest and the difficult part of getting say top 200 is because you have to wade through so much fucking cheese. especially if you're zerg LOL.
jp is a 3500 masters as random which is actually quite decent seeing that he has no rts background afaik
Looks like it's just a guessing game eh? I mean I think no one saw Day9 , Artosis ( maybe a few games of him ) , Tasteless etc for a long time as far as I know.
Still I guess it's Artosis , it looks like he's still trying his best in his limited time , trying to get into Code A and stuff...
Artosis for sure. If Gretorp/incontrol are in the pool also then they're all pretty close with Gretorp in the lead imo. I agree with everything majestouch said above me (strangely I think I just posted something like this in another thread).
Artosis crushes T all ins pretty handily so I'm sure he'll be way higher in MMR as soon as he gets a good session in.
I didn't know jp was 3500 masters, that's pretty sick.
Artosis, made it into GSL 1, and was pretty close to make it to other GSLs. He's the only one you somewhat know what he's capable right now.
Day9 is a mistery, i can't believe how many are saying it's him, no one saw him play. Fanboyism at its best. Tasteless' skill is also unknown but i assume he's bad cause of his limited build / strategic knowledge when commentating.
On March 25 2011 00:47 gr8ape wrote: Not Husky Not Hdstarcraft Not Jp Not DJwheat
not moletrap not diggity not theGunrun
Chill is probably the best pure caster-player I could name with no real tournament or sponsorship experience unlike Artosis, Tasteless, and Day[9], Incontrol et al.
Artosis, Day[9] and Tasteless will obviously all play against each other a lot being as close friends as they are. (well day and tasteless are brothers and judging by daily100.. i can't see them not having a daily game or two) So i'd imagine there are probably a lot of replays of them playing against each other, just not in public. Problem is if they play on smurfs then they won't get released. Someone get Artosis on twitter and get him to play a showmatch vs Day[9] using their known accounts (ie day[9]'s daily account.)
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
You're just talking out of your ass right now. Tastosis do the best job of keeping viewers engaged in a game, even if it seems one-sided or downright boring. Just because they don't say, "X is finished now. He should just gg," doesn't mean they don't know it's over.
Unbelievable. I just can't believe you said they have a terrible understanding of the game. If you hadn't written so much I would have thought you were a troll.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
You're just talking out of your ass right now. Tastosis do the best job of keeping viewers engaged in a game, even if it seems one-sided or downright boring. Just because they don't say, "X is finished now. He should just gg," doesn't mean they don't know it's over.
I want you to go and read my post again (or the rest of the thread) and realize how much you failed reading properly, then realize it doesn't matter and we all make mistakes and that there is no shame in admitting 'Oh, okay, I misread, sorry', and go on with your life.
Artosis for sure is the best because he gets on really well with tasteless and knows the game inside out, but IdrA would be an awesome co-caster for tasteless, a funny guy and a really serious guy goes well cause u can get the definitive opinion from experience or a different opinion from tasteless. They have to have chemistry though, nothing worse than watching people commentate who just don't enjoy their job (aka kelly milkies).
Artosis is way better than Day9, unless Day 9 has improved immensely. Qualifying for the GSL proved he is a top 1% player. Day 9 took a very long time to get into diamond (I remember him mentioning finally getting into diamond) when he was practicing with the likes of Jinro. Check the Day 9 archives.
-- day9 vs Tasteless matches in beta.
Day 9 has master's level mechanics and obviously great game knowledge, but in the heat of the game his decision making is poor. And he also seems to have a love for bad compositions he thinks are cool and playing random. So he's more interested in having fun than making a run for pro.
One that hasn't been mentioned yet is d.apollo, who commentated IEM and dreamhack with day9. Even though he hasn't won anything yet, he's competing in weekly ESL cups and beaten some good players.
On March 25 2011 03:22 Peekaboo wrote: Artosis is way better than Day9, unless Day 9 has improved immensely. Qualifying for the GSL proved he is a top 1% player. Day 9 took a very long time to get into diamond (I remember him mentioning finally getting into diamond) when he was practicing with the likes of Jinro. Check the Day 9 archives.
Day 9 has master's level mechanics and obviously great game knowledge, but in the heat of the game his decision making is poor. And he also seems to have a love for bad compositions he thinks are cool and playing random. So he's more interested in having fun than making a run for pro.
How is Artossis "way better" than someone you've only seen play in the beta? And the whole "finally getting into diamond" is because of not having enough time to play. Do you really think someone who's been A on iccup and pgtour is not able to play SC2?
Also, using beta videos for proof isn't really legitimate proof. Look at any other video from the beta, everyone was pretty bad by today's standards, even the pros.
On March 25 2011 03:04 Elefanto wrote: Artosis, made it into GSL 1, and was pretty close to make it to other GSLs. He's the only one you somewhat know what he's capable right now.
Day9 is a mistery, i can't believe how many are saying it's him, no one saw him play. Fanboyism at its best.
I dont believe its fanboyism you dont have to see someone play to have a pretty sound base for a argument for that player. We know day9 was a good player in sc, we know hes a master lvl player in sc2. We know he plays random which usually gives you a better understanding of the game then just playing one race. As a caster he seems the most knowledgeable. Now since artosis seems to be the only runner up.
You look at the facts we know about him. Got into gsl 1 and came close a couple other times.(not to mention he made it into gsl 1 when the actual league round of 64 and on was terrible games for the most part) However that was all with zerg he has recently switched to protoss. Which everyone knows will decrease your playing level for quite some time because all the small intricacies of a class takes the longest to learn. So we really dont know his skill level anymore.
So imo between the 2...it'll come down to what races day9 gets vs artosis if they did a best of 5. If he gets zerg it will be in favor of artosis imo since he knows exactly what works vs zerg. however ever any otehr race would lean to day9 and it just depends how good artosis got with prot
Tasteless' skill is also unknown but i assume he's bad cause of his limited build / strategic knowledge when commentating.
On March 25 2011 03:22 Peekaboo wrote: Artosis is way better than Day9, unless Day 9 has improved immensely. Qualifying for the GSL proved he is a top 1% player. Day 9 took a very long time to get into diamond (I remember him mentioning finally getting into diamond) when he was practicing with the likes of Jinro. Check the Day 9 archives.
This is misleading. He got into diamond late because after the countdown party he couldn't even play for like a week because he was so busy. He started playing and I'm assuming the same thing happened to him that happened to every other high level diamond player from beta(which he was): he went on huge winning streaks and took forever to get promoted. I happen to know for a fact that he was in the top 200 in NA around the time the game came out.
Artosis probably has the best current skill level.. but if Day played serious, I think he has more potential when he is in game shape. Day was pretty solid back in the day.
Tasteless wasnt ever really in either of their leagues imo
If we're counting the Koreans, I'd take a blind guess and say Daezang because he was a pretty successful progamer at one point. I think Gisado was a pro once upon a time but I think I heard he wasn't good at all...
Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
Artosis has a great deal of theoretical skill, yet I don't really see that translate into tournament results aside from some of the Beta events and the GSL1 Ro64. I'm sure he would become a fantastic player if he had more time to practice and participate in events as a player, but right now his current physical skill isn't too impressive.
I think TLO is currently the commentator with the highest play skill level. His commentating with Rotterdam at the IEM finals was both informative and entertaining, and he continues to be a crazy-good Random player in many current tournaments. Unlike other commentators, TLO is in-form and still produces great results despite not commentating as much.
Artosis. Day9 I doubt even plays any more. People need to get a reality check and realize the guy doesn't play that much and it shows in his commentary. Artosis on the other hand is easily high masters.
He's always improving, Altought I didn't liked the passive style he used in the video showing him trying to qualify for GSL vs a terran who went mass Thor, he's a good player and knows what he is talking about.
Artosis once qualified for the GSL. I'd say his skill is quite up there. And as far as laddering, he is definitely up there considering how rarely he plays given his schedule compared to other people at his level. Also, if Day 9 actually took up the game and tried to be good at it, I would definitely think he would be one of the top US players. I wouldn't doubt him being one of the top at the moment either.
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
What... day9 competed at a high level for years and years in BW getting A+ on iccup, of course he has enough skill to become a great sc2 player if he fully commited to training (not going to happen due to other commitments eg day9 daily and casting)
Good news is he will have a lot more time to train whenever he is done with his thesis so he will become even more knowledgable than he already is
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
They obviously try to make it exciting for the casual viewer lol
Exciting by saying that it's over?
They're all the time 'Yeah, we could pretend that it's not over to make it more exciting, but he actually has 0% chance of coming back'. -> comes back.
By claiming that something is 100% ensured it causes excitement when it doesn't happen. i.e if everybody said someone was 100% guarenteed to fail in a major tournament it sure as hell would be exciting to watch them climb their way to the top.
When MC holds after such a comment the viewer is excited because what happened seems more miraculous that it actually was.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
You expect them to make every call right?
I expect him to not say 'There is 0% chance of him coming back, trust me guys, this game is over, some of you noobs might think at home 'But what if he ...', but no, it's actually over.' And then he comes back.
He's a commentator his job is to exaggerate, obviously in almost any scenario there is not really an 0% chance of whatever it is to happen. He's just trying to create excitement by sensationalising. See my previous statement
Artosis gets things right 99% of the time, how many times has a game been 2 minutes in and he says "I bet x goes for this and his opponent does this" and then is proven exactly right 30 secs later.
It's not hard to get that right 99% of the time and he'smore like 95%.
Recognising when a game is totally over is quite easy actually, people do it all the time on ladder, without third person view even, it's when they gg.
Actually predicting builds due to the nature of the opponent / map / previous games is not as easy as you make it out to be, think about the GSTL where even more factors come into play, ie are they just throwing this guy out there to put the opponent on tilt for the next person, will it be some kind of funky timing push/greedy fast expands/standard macro/cheese for X reasons. If you think about the number of builds for each race + each different matchup / map etc there is a lot more to take into consideration than just oh its a PvZ i think we'll see 3gate expand.
As for recognising when a game is over, we can read gg ourselves, having the casters repeat that serves no purpose i don't even get what you're getting at here.
When they talk about a nexus being dead and it gets saved, 80% of the time it doesn't get saved, the other 20% the player either isn't paying attention to his army and it starts attacking the opponents rallying units instead or he actively decides to kill the new army before it kills his, instead of finishes the nexus. Or more often the nexus survives with 30 hp....
Watch the teamleague, MC versus SlayersWhatshisname. He said 'there is 0% chance this nexus is going to live', MC ends up holding it off very easily and watching it I was like 'Nahh, that nexus is going to survive very easily.'.
slayers mma i think it was
When they actually engaged you might of been able to see the nexus was going to survive, however unless you made that call at the same time he did theres no use comparing. (and if you did how could you take into account mc's stalkers and how mma would react to the stalling) Artosis simply commentated on what he thought was going to happen at the current pace of the game.
Vikings are terrible on the ground, but if you have 16 of them and the opponent has 6 stalkers ofc they win....... if you land 6 vikings against 6 equal HP ground units... they lose.... just because they win a fight every now and then doesn't mean they are good on the ground.
No, vikings are decent on the ground because they do 12 dps on the ground (1 armour redux) and do 10 dps in the air versus unarmoured and 14 versus armoured, both getting double armour reduction.
Vikings are for instance actually on equal footing with stalkers on the ground, which wins in equal numbers depends on target acquisition and concave. And yes, Vikings are more expensive, but they can fly away, stalkers can't. Vikings are by no means 'terrible' on the ground. Also, stalkers receive a penalty versus unarmoured units, vikings do not. 8 vikings beat 16 marines on the ground hands down, some green vikings left, only one dies in unit tester. However 8 stalkers versus 16 marines again depends on random target acquisition who comes out ahead.
PsY knows this and pointed it out in a video. I once made a thread here about this situation, my hypothesis is that the viking attack animation looks weak, and therefore it gives people the subconscious idea that it is weak. (not to mention that few people actually land them).
If you think that Vikings are terrible on the ground I have some doubts about your own understanding of the game and by extension ability to judge that of others, there is neither a statistical nor an empirical justification for this. They perform similarly to stalkers against armoured targets and a lot better against unarmoured targets on the ground, well worth the extra 25/25 price tag for their ability to lift off and fly away.
Artosis however is very good in making it appear he knows a lot by just talking analytical all the time, quite often he's also wrong or is really prone to 'hipster reasoning' ("I love what he's doing, because it's never been done before!") Let's face it, the guy loves every protoss who doesn't go 2base colossus, not because it's not that good (he's desperately trying to find a justification why it's bad, kind of ironical since he called the unit imbalanced and overpowered), but simply because it's trite and everyone does it.
Also, back at the beginning of GSL 5 he didn't even know why you would get armour against terran as protoss, he wasn't sure how to explain that San got armour first, surely this is the standard and people have figured this out months ago?
I'm not even going to touch the viking debate cause tbh i have no idea how it all matches up.
How does talking analytically mean he doesn't know a lot? (it doesn't necessarily mean he does, but it in no way means he doesn't either) the way i see it is hes breaking down the decision making and the play as its going on to get a better understanding which he shares with the viewers.
This so called 'hipster reasoning' that you've dubbed is what starcraft 2 is all about, finding new ways to defeat your opponent. Of course Artosis loves this, who doesn't enjoy seeing something brand new? Its exciting to watch, you can only watch so many 4 gates before it gets stale.
Not even sure where you got that hes 'desperately trying to find a justification' for why 2 base colosi is bad, sure he doesn't like it but i haven't seen him clutching at straws at any point trying to defend his dislike of two base colosi (i may of missed some of the GSL where he did this, feel free to direct me to it).
In my eyes you seem to have an unreasonable expectation of the casters, they are there to make the game fun to watch for the masses not to act as robots simply spouting facts, which would be quite boring to watch for any length of time and isn't really feasible anyway. feel free to let me know if i totally got the wrong idea.
Final note: cbf going through and replying to all your posts (or editing this one, so please don't nitpick my sentences grammatically) as i saw you had a ton other posts so i just picked the largest one to 'dissect' but feel free to reply to this and i'll write something back when i wake up tomorrow.
I'm caught between Day[9] and Artosis. Right this very moment, Artosis would probably win if the two went against each other, but if Day had time to practice I don't think he'd have any trouble competing at the top level of play again. I really hope he gets back into progaming after he graduates, I would love to see that.
Out of the people that primarily commentate, definitely Artosis. If I remember correctly I heard Tasteless mention during the GSL that he was a 3500 masters player a couple of weeks ago, anyone else remember hearing that?
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
You're just talking out of your ass right now. Tastosis do the best job of keeping viewers engaged in a game, even if it seems one-sided or downright boring. Just because they don't say, "X is finished now. He should just gg," doesn't mean they don't know it's over.
I want you to go and read my post again (or the rest of the thread) and realize how much you failed reading properly, then realize it doesn't matter and we all make mistakes and that there is no shame in admitting 'Oh, okay, I misread, sorry', and go on with your life.
Would you do that for me?
Well I did you the honour of reading your original post in its entirety again. It's just as absurd the second time around.
This is really hard to say, since we have no idea of where Day9 is on the ladder. That is really the only way to base it on since, most of the main actual casters don't have tournament results. With that said, I'm pretty certain Day9 could beat Artosis in a bo5.
I believe that Day9 barely plays at all, because he doesnt have the time to, so I don't think he is anywhere near the level of Artosis.
As said, Artosis might be the best player out of the highly popular commentators. Incontrol, Sheth and Gretorp are better, but I don't know if you can classify them in the same category as Artosis, because they commentate a lot less and its not their main focus.
Artosis by far. That guy is a fountain of starcraft knowledge. It's honestly amazing how committed he is to that game. He plays, he commentates, he's done an INSANE amount for the community. Great player too.
Though Tasteless I heard is REALLY good, at least in brood war. Apparently he was like A/A- on iccup? Hard to believe based on his jokes but he definitely is really good.
Umm.. Out of 'major commentator's I'd say day9 isn't even in the competition, i luv him and all, but - you fanboys need to realize that he doesn't play competitively right now and would probably need to do some good preparation to play anyone half decent. Instead of day9, I think Artosis, Gretorp or Incontrol would have a grab at the top spot as 'best player who is a commentator'. I'm not really sure who'd win tbh.. I'd be willing to flip a coin between my top two picks of Incontrol and Artosis due to the state of PvP. Also, I'm not really aware of what Gretorps skill level is currently beyond that he's pro level - he could be the best? We'll see how he does at MLG I suppose.
In BW it was day9 (although he really didn't commentate a lot), in SC2 it's probably artosis but it's impossible to tell because we have no idea how much artosis, day9, and tasteless all play. I would say it's between those three because day9 has to spend all of his time on graduate school and the dailies.
I really think that Day[9] had the most knowledge of the game and how its played out of all the top casters but he just doesn't have the time to practice right now
On March 25 2011 03:29 reprise wrote: How is Artossis "way better" than someone you've only seen play in the beta? And the whole "finally getting into diamond" is because of not having enough time to play. Do you really think someone who's been A on iccup and pgtour is not able to play SC2?
Also, using beta videos for proof isn't really legitimate proof. Look at any other video from the beta, everyone was pretty bad by today's standards, even the pros.
Quit being such a fanboy. I just remember back when Day 9 was saying stuff like I played 14 games against Jinro yesterday, and practicing against TLO on the weekend...and it was a month later when he announced he finally made it into diamond. And after that he announced he was just going to smurf. That's all I know about his ability in SC2.... its not awe-inspiring.
I'm not saying Day9 doesn't have an awesome High masters league smurf account rated higher than Artosis's public accounts... I'm just saying it is highly unlikely. And I'm not saying he couldn't apply himself and become good, but it seems he hasn't.
Thus, Artosis, who has, is a much better player given the public evidence.
This thread is hard to answer because who is a commenatator? Is Destiny a commentator? Is Combat-Ex a commentator?
And what is skill? Are we talking about results or theoretical skill? Or theoretical potential?
Fuck it I'll just answer Artosis.[/QUOTE]
I would consider a person a commentator when the main aspect of their starcraft experience is commentating. Artosis, tasteless, Day(9), Psy, Rotterdam, Husky, HD, JP ect ect
Destiny is mainly a player, he plays to get better. If he desides to soley commentate (like he has said he would consider) then yes he will then be a commentator, atm he is a player.
Combat-ex doesn't have the respect of the community to be anything but troll/cheese.
Skill is a subjective term basing off of ones belief; and here is where the real question can be answered.
obviously this is my opinion but I'm pretty sure with his bw practice regiment that Day9 could be a big contender for highend competitive play and that will also raise his commentating abilities.
On March 25 2011 03:29 reprise wrote: How is Artossis "way better" than someone you've only seen play in the beta? And the whole "finally getting into diamond" is because of not having enough time to play. Do you really think someone who's been A on iccup and pgtour is not able to play SC2?
Also, using beta videos for proof isn't really legitimate proof. Look at any other video from the beta, everyone was pretty bad by today's standards, even the pros.
Quit being such a fanboy. I just remember back when Day 9 was saying stuff like I played 14 games against Jinro yesterday, and practicing against TLO on the weekend...and it was a month later when he announced he finally made it into diamond. And after that he announced he was just going to smurf. That's all I know about his ability in SC2.... its not awe-inspiring.
I'm not saying Day9 doesn't have an awesome High masters league smurf account rated higher than Artosis's public accounts... I'm just saying it is highly unlikely. And I'm not saying he couldn't apply himself and become good, but it seems he hasn't.
Thus, Artosis, who has, is a much better player given the public evidence.
You do realize Day9 do have at least one high masters account as random? Even though masters isn't much of an achievement. And it's probably true he's not at the top of his game now with uni and shit. About that diamond thing though, how do you know he didn't play pure custom games and no ladder? Obviously no point speculating about something noone knows anything about except Day9 himself and maybe some of his friends.
On a play level for big commentators, now that iNc will be doing NASL he has the highest play level iNc is probably the best. I think Artosis's real strength is his game knowledge/passion. Not to say that iNc isn't very good on those same fronts as well
I actually really hope Day gets into playing seriously with Star2 as well, as he is just such a fantastic player, I think he could definitely vie for this position if he did start to play seriously. That and I hope he goes back to the deep analysis he did in BW to help further the metagame rather than just catering to new players, though it's great that he is helping out the lower level players.
I want to say Day9, he is really knowledgable and has great analysis, but I think the only time I've seen him play was some showmatch against his brother during beta.
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
He's getting his M.S in a design field. I don't remember exactly what his degree is but his math degree is from Harvey Mudd.
On March 25 2011 03:56 eviltomahawk wrote: Artosis has a great deal of theoretical skill, yet I don't really see that translate into tournament results aside from some of the Beta events and the GSL1 Ro64. I'm sure he would become a fantastic player if he had more time to practice and participate in events as a player, but right now his current physical skill isn't too impressive.
I think TLO is currently the commentator with the highest play skill level. His commentating with Rotterdam at the IEM finals was both informative and entertaining, and he continues to be a crazy-good Random player in many current tournaments. Unlike other commentators, TLO is in-form and still produces great results despite not commentating as much.
he's not participating in any events outside of qualifiers for GSL. you can't have tournament results w/out attending tournaments.
TLO duh, if you consider him a commentator. incontrol and u have to consider him a commentator since he's the face of nasl. If you are disallowing these player first commentators then maybe artosis but I'd think he considers himself a player first also. Day9 is too out of condition to be considered the top. He's doing tournaments everyweekend not to mention a daily show 5 nights a week and is finishing his masters. If he gets 10 hours a week of playtime I'd be surprised. BUT after he gets back to form I'd say day.
On March 25 2011 03:56 eviltomahawk wrote: Artosis has a great deal of theoretical skill, yet I don't really see that translate into tournament results aside from some of the Beta events and the GSL1 Ro64. I'm sure he would become a fantastic player if he had more time to practice and participate in events as a player, but right now his current physical skill isn't too impressive.
I think TLO is currently the commentator with the highest play skill level. His commentating with Rotterdam at the IEM finals was both informative and entertaining, and he continues to be a crazy-good Random player in many current tournaments. Unlike other commentators, TLO is in-form and still produces great results despite not commentating as much.
he's not participating in any events outside of qualifiers for GSL. you can't have tournament results w/out attending tournaments.
True. However, he hasn't really been on the KR server top 200 list recently despite claiming to be playing on it a lot. Then again, the top 200 on KR is full of full-time progamers, so it would be difficult for anyone to make it onto the list.
I don't understand why some of you guys keep throwing player names in a commentator related thread. Yea they may have commentated a few games but that doesn't change the fact that they are players , not commentators. If you want to go with that , July commentated an event ( cant remember the name ) in Korea so yeah he's easily the best commentator around then?
On March 25 2011 05:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote: ive seen idra commentate, therefore hes a commentator and the best actively playing one
I have commentated on games, does that make me a commentator? I guess in the definitive term it does but when you are labeling someone, you would label me as noob, Idra as progamer and Artosis as commentator.
On March 25 2011 00:40 ppshchik wrote: Note: For SKILL level I mean individual playing skills not commentating skills. Please don't start some "XXX is better than XXX" commentator fanboy wars / dick measuring contests...
I know there are many up and coming SC2 commentators who upload vods etc but I usually find the ones who play best as the most credible ones since they have skills to back it up instead of being like an arm-chair general. IdrA was really good when he's substituting Tastosis during Blizzcon and even though he wasn't as eloquent as other casters his words+commentaries seem to weigh 1000x heavier due to his reputation and skill level.
I realize Artosis is pretty good since he qualified for the 1st GSL. But I reckon Day9 should pretty good due to his analytical skills and winning WCG USA 2005 (thought it was a long time and I haven't seen Day9's SC2 replays besides the BETA showmatch).
Or Psy? I saw him beating Piqliq before.
Chill was really good in Broodwar but I haven't seen him upload SC2 tutorial videos
Really want to look for more skilled casters. Plz name the strongest one...
Commentators are getting more publicity than the actual players in the general section.
Oh boy,
Ok, let's get some things straight. Knowledge is a big factor. I see a lot of decent players testing their chops on the mike. They weren't stars by any stretch of the imagination, but hell they did a lot around the community.
With that said,
Chill wasn't really good at BW. He was okay, but for the guys who have been here a while. Most of us know him from moderating the old BW strategy forum. The guy is knowledgeable yes, but a far cry from being a really good BW player. He was well above average though. No clue about his SC2 skills though. I see him as an avid follower more than anything else.
Artosis keeps saying how he was a professional BW player. He wasn't. In fact, if I were to use both my hands... I could barely give you a list of guys who either tried or made it on a pro gamer team for BW. The BW international scene was never big enough in the first place and other than Dan getting a job with estro and doing the sc4all and TSL bits. I cannot name any tournaments he's won. Sure, he was on sponsored teams like a lot of other players, but they are still labeled as amateurs.
IdrA's done some commentary, sure. If we're talking about the most skill mechanically for an English caster. Yeah, ok.
Day[9] hasn't really competed yet. Sean was a pretty good BW player. Hell in 2004, he was playing like a mad man or a zergling with adrenalin glands.
Incontrol, he's always been a team player. I remember him back in his 88) days and when he was in control (no pun intended) of the USA B, or the USA War machine as he liked to call it. The guy knows how to lead and I remember one specific double elimination tournament where he got knocked out early and crawled all the way back to the loser bracket semi-final, or even loser bracket final (cannot remember, no one thought he would get that far but he proved everyone wrong because he had a lot of stiff competition). Either way, the guy used to have great micro in BW and was known for his fast hive/defiler tech. Reminds me a lot of Tsunami. Regardless he hasn't had a big break yet in SC2. Still waiting to see more consistency from him, but he has a lot on his plate at the moment. Come to think of it, he didn't have a lot of individual achievements in BW either. He represented USA in one WCG though. I think that was the highlight of his career in BW other than all the clan war leagues he's been in. Great guy for the community though and understands the basic principles as well as Day[9].
Then you'll see some guys like TLO or NonY (Tyler) making special appearances or what not to comment on some games at a LAN as well. I guess that is as close as you will get in terms of skill because they're busting their chops and their insight is invaluable atm.
This is hard topic to comment on because so many guys are turning to casting. I mean I could say more about players like Gretrop, Sheth, etc. but in reality they're all pretty close in skill. I don't see much debate in this because I have yet to see a TOP player decide to turn it in and say hey, I think I'll cast more often.
It really comes down to knowledge and experience. All the guys listed above share something in common. They have a shitload of experience regardless of their skill. In many cases, many of them have similar skill levels, they just bring something different to the table.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
I don't really think that's a fair claim to make. It's really difficult to make those calls and given the grand number of calls they have to make it would be damn hard for them to be right all the time. In addition, you're going to remember the bad calls they've made with priority over the good ones.
In addition to that, it is sort of the commentators job to be decisive even when they aren't sure about something. Think of how annoying it would be if they kept saying things like "I'm pretty sure he's going to win this right here."
Lastly, it seems to me like you're just looking for reasons to dislike them because landed vikings really ARE bad and if they obliterated some ground force it's because that ground force was not worth as much.
Kelly was alright but she wasn't comparable as a commentator. She had a good understanding of the game though I'll give you that. Her understanding was nothing compared to tasteless and artosis. When Kelly casts a match she only talks about what's happening RIGHT then "the banelings are rolling into the marines but there might be just enough tanks" whereas tasteless and artosis talk about decisions that have long term effects "if he continues to attack across the map like this his attacks are going to have diminishing returns"
Additionally, it sounds like you're comparing the knowledge of tasteless and artosis to kelly and saying she is comparable, and in context with this thread it sounds like you're saying kelly can compete with tasteless and artosis. She said on the stream once though that tasteless and artosis were much better than her.
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
He's getting his M.S in a design field. I don't remember exactly what his degree is but his math degree is from Harvey Mudd.
I'd say Day9 his understanding is just so so good but as mentioned I doubt he's playing enough to be the best but I think he could be easily if he puts the effort in. Tastosis is a bit IMBA so can't count.
Artosis is the one full time commentator still with a burning desire to be a top player so I will definately pick him. I guess Incontrol would come in a close second. Day9 could definately be up there if he played, but he is too busy to play enough, same goes for Tasteless, I think Tasteless hasn't had interest in being a top player for quite a while.
On March 25 2011 00:42 Ohdamn wrote: the answer is artosis.
This. No one else really comes close, in all likelihood. If day9 were good, I think we'd see the tiniest bit of evidence of the fact. We don't even know that he's master league, lol.
Tasteless is clearly master league (and has actually mentioned that fact off hand at one point), but he doesn't play at a professional level.
Artosis doesn't even get as much time to practice, due to commentating, but still hangs around a code A level of skill.
Though I guess it's worth noting, HD and Husky are both master level, but their commentary makes you think they're in gold league. So maybe there are some other commentators up at the very high master level, but just don't show it through their bad commentary.
On March 25 2011 00:42 Ohdamn wrote: the answer is artosis.
This. No one else really comes close, in all likelihood. If day9 were good, I think we'd see the tiniest bit of evidence of the fact. We don't even know that he's master league, lol.
Tasteless is clearly master league (and has actually mentioned that fact off hand at one point), but he doesn't play at a professional level.
Artosis doesn't even get as much time to practice, due to commentating, but still hangs around a code A level of skill.
Though I guess it's worth noting, HD and Husky are both master level, but their commentary makes you think they're in gold league. So maybe there are some other commentators up at the very high master level, but just don't show it through their bad commentary.
Artosis is probably getting nerd chills reading this thread, but I'd also have to say Artosis. He plays Korean ladder, commentates some of the highest levels games and actually goes home and plays the game. He's even recently said since he doesn't have to cast Code A anymore that he'll become more competitive in SC2.
Day9 would be sick if his day wasn't full of dailies, college and prep work. I doubt it would take him long to become high masters if he had the time to ladder.
Tasteless smurfs + trolls the NA masters ladder cannon rushing and talking to other people about himself. I'm sure he is above average.
No current commentator is a pro player except for Gretorp afaik. Gretorp will commentate NASL afaik. Most commentators that I am aware of have very little skill. This includes husky, djwheat, jp, Chill, Khaldor, thundertoss, Ascend, Micro, Vincere, et al. Some commentators have a little bit of skill. This includes Artosis (low master, ~55%) Rotterdam is 3,800 master 53% (3/24/11) and was a professional wc3 player. Day9 I suppose to be a high level player.
Lol are you like 5. Plz name the strongest one... lol. Artosis, but I guess you would watch these guys for their commentating not their playing strength,,,
Hey I recently played artosis on ladder I thought I'd share, in terms of actual skill his mid to late game is absolutely terrible. I have another replay that I'm not going to share as i'm not his opponent so I don't feel like its mine to share but he doesn't do so hot. That being said I still have an immense amount of respect for the guy and what he does for the community, I would love to see him play more as his early build is pretty respectable.
Something makes me think SKU is day9 but I'm not entirely sure, day is retarded good though in terms of potential. If he put casting on hold for a month sat down and practiced he would blow everyone out of the water including most tip top players in NA.
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
He's getting his M.S in a design field. I don't remember exactly what his degree is but his math degree is from Harvey Mudd.
SC2 takes all the intelligence of a prepubscent korean boy (leenock).
On March 25 2011 06:35 bMn30 wrote: No current commentator is a pro player except for Gretorp afaik. Gretorp will commentate NASL afaik. Most commentators that I am aware of have very little skill. This includes husky, djwheat, jp, Chill, Khaldor, thundertoss, Ascend, Micro, Vincere, et al. Some commentators have a little bit of skill. This includes Artosis (low master, ~55%) Rotterdam is 3,800 master 53% (3/24/11) and was a professional wc3 player. Day9 I suppose to be a high level player.
You aren't too bright. Gretorp isn't that good. He's sponsored but that came from his BW days. Who is the only caster to qualify for Code A? And have gotten 1 game away at least once? Artosis. Artosis would rape Gretorp so hard he would cry while still playing.
Gretorp, you are cool and all, but Artosis is just better than you.
Definitely artosis right now like everyone is saying. I hope day9 will get back in enough and get back into his old form, so him and artosis can continue their rivalry.
Anyway... I really love Artosis (first!... no wait...) - But I'm suprised to see little love for Chill?
Day[9] is an obvious runner up... HD is (imo) pretty good aswell - as he seem to know the game better than Husky - and still puts in more energy than the core of other cast (with the exception of Husky... I mean... If you love Husky, it's gotta be 'cuz of his energy and enthusiasm, right?)
"I don't know if I will play professional starcraft after I graduate, but if I do I will be sure to knock Artosis out of every single tournament he joins" ~ Day9, State of the Game podcast at PAX
Depends. Do sheth/incontrol/gretorp count? If they did, they'd be tied with Artosis (we don't know exactly how good Artosis is, except that he almost qualified for season 4, and he's high masters in Korea, and sheth/inc/gre are all relatively even with eachother) If no, Artosis easily. Day9 is obviously very good, but he hasn't played in forever, so he's not up there yet. Tasteless is definetely masters, but I think with all the casting he isn't up there Psy is in and out of the top 200 of NA
day 9 hands down, psy alright but beating piqliq is no accomplishment its like beating stinky blue cheese. but yea day 9 is such a strong player although in the HDH tastless did beat him but more due to mind games
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
He's getting his M.S in a design field. I don't remember exactly what his degree is but his math degree is from Harvey Mudd.
Day9 is getting his masters in Interactive Media - aka that's why in the State of the Game they say that his profs should just watch his show and let him submit that as his thesis =P
On March 25 2011 07:13 Slago wrote: day 9 hands down, psy alright but beating piqliq is no accomplishment its like beating stinky blue cheese. but yea day 9 is such a strong player although in the HDH tastless did beat him but more due to mind games
...really? There's pretty much no examples of day9 doing really well in tournaments, let alone even replays of him playing really well. He was a beastly sc1 player but it seems to me (and he says himself) that he hasn't been able to put the time into sc2 that he needs to yet.
Nobody has even seen Day9 or Nick play lately, people have seen HD and Artosis here and there, and they both look like the best player-commentators out there, i reckon:
1. Artosis 2. HD 3. Day9 4. Husky 5. JP 6. Wheat
I dont consider iNcontrol, TLO or Idra player commentators, they just guest starred here and there, granted iNcontrol might down the road become a "real" commentator with NASL etc.
On March 25 2011 07:21 Tyree wrote: Nobody has even seen Day9 or Nick play lately, people have seen HD and Artosis here and there, and they both look like the best player-commentators out there, i reckon:
1. Artosis 2. HD 3. Day9 4. Husky 5. JP 6. Wheat
I dont consider iNcontrol, TLO or Idra player commentators, they just guest starred here and there, granted iNcontrol might down the road become a "real" commentator with NASL etc.
I'm sorry but when you are A+ Iccup a game this easy is not going to magically become hard. It doesn't matter if HD has played since beta, all those players are years behind Day[9]s depreciated skill level.
Joking aside, Day9 has listed himself as a top masters and random on his blip.tv profile so he is higher than I think most people assume. I also remember hearing that Psy broke top 200 ladder in the US a while ago but has not quite made it back.
Edit: exact quote
High level commentary on competitive Starcraft matches from a 12-year veteran and top player. Day[9] has been rated A+/A on ICCUP/PGT on multiple accounts over multiple seasons, has qualified for the WCG USA finals 7 times, has qualified for the WCG Grand Finals 3 times, and won the Pan American Championship in 2007. In Starcraft 2 Day[9] is a top rated Master League player as random.
On March 25 2011 07:29 Patton3D wrote: Totalbiscuit!
Joking aside, Day9 has listed himself as a top masters and random on his blip.tv profile so he is higher than I think most people assume. I also remember hearing that Psy broke top 200 ladder in the US a while ago but has not quite made it back.
High level commentary on competitive Starcraft matches from a 12-year veteran and top player. Day[9] has been rated A+/A on ICCUP/PGT on multiple accounts over multiple seasons, has qualified for the WCG USA finals 7 times, has qualified for the WCG Grand Finals 3 times, and won the Pan American Championship in 2007. In Starcraft 2 Day[9] is a top rated Master League player as random.
To be honest I don't think Day9 ever was A+/A on iccup... I might be mistaken and I love day9, but that can only be PGTOur (at best)
Artosis, Day9 and Tasteless. I think Tasteless gets a lot of flak because in BW days he was the analytical commentator as opposed to now where he is the caster and Artosis is the analytical guy. I'm pretty sure Tasteless is really good, the tasteless build (lol) was actually really popular at one point, kawaiirice made an improved version of it (the marine, 1 tank, 1 raven build)
uh if u count players who actively play the game probably incontrol.....although its not fair to say because any player can start commentating at any point
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
I agree with the tasteless and artosis constantly making bad calls. I remember when some protoss player was going armor first against terran , and they are going "i am confused why is he getting armor first" then the next week they are saying "oh hes getting armor first thats the way to do it"
I thought getting armor first against T was common knowledge unless you start getting upgrades around the time your collosus comes out then attack is just as good. Thats just one example they clown it alot. I do think they have a decent understanding of the game and are good players, they just dont quite keep up with everything thats going on i guess. Theyve probably said "okay its over there is no way he can come back fromm this *guy comes back* so many times, they say it over the most minute details *player loses 4 scv;s* okay thats its its gonna be really hard for him to come back now. I love tasteosis but between the bad calls in game and their bad predictions of who is going to win the match, i just facepalm sometimes. "I will swallow a crooked sword if Sanzenith makes it out of this group". in the up and down matches "if MVP doesnt make it out of this group the world is going to implode" there are countless others they just really need to stop making such bold statements.
I remember once HD and Day9 chatting while casting some tourney, and Day9 mentioned not having as much time as he would like to play, saying he can only get oh-so-many-hours of laddering in per day... and HD's says something to the effect of "Yeah I don't get that many hours in a week"
Even if Day9 is only low master's, that he plays random has got to count for something
On March 25 2011 00:42 Ohdamn wrote: the answer is artosis.
This. No one else really comes close, in all likelihood. If day9 were good, I think we'd see the tiniest bit of evidence of the fact. We don't even know that he's master league, lol.
Tasteless is clearly master league (and has actually mentioned that fact off hand at one point), but he doesn't play at a professional level.
Artosis doesn't even get as much time to practice, due to commentating, but still hangs around a code A level of skill.
Though I guess it's worth noting, HD and Husky are both master level, but their commentary makes you think they're in gold league. So maybe there are some other commentators up at the very high master level, but just don't show it through their bad commentary.
I doubt those are kellymilkies actualy accounts probably fakes, she won the womans ESL a few months back so i dont think shes that bad. If someone in gold can win womans ESL then thats pretty bad lol
Edit: wow i checked out her accounts she had her character codes and username on a ESL profile page. she is in plat in SEA and gold in NA im suprised, how the heck did she win a womans ESL are there no woman participating that are in masters league?
2nd edit: well she may not be in masters but she can beat masters players she beat megumixbear a master terran on NA in a womans ESL match 2-0. wow megumixbear is hot too http://www.justin.tv/megumixbear thats her stream
On March 25 2011 07:29 Patton3D wrote: Totalbiscuit!
Joking aside, Day9 has listed himself as a top masters and random on his blip.tv profile so he is higher than I think most people assume. I also remember hearing that Psy broke top 200 ladder in the US a while ago but has not quite made it back.
Edit: exact quote
High level commentary on competitive Starcraft matches from a 12-year veteran and top player. Day[9] has been rated A+/A on ICCUP/PGT on multiple accounts over multiple seasons, has qualified for the WCG USA finals 7 times, has qualified for the WCG Grand Finals 3 times, and won the Pan American Championship in 2007. In Starcraft 2 Day[9] is a top rated Master League player as random.
To be honest I don't think Day9 ever was A+/A on iccup... I might be mistaken and I love day9, but that can only be PGTOur (at best)
You don't think a WCG Champion can break A on iccup... -.-
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but two of the Korean GOM commentators are Daezang and Oversky who were badass SC1 pros (Oversky maintained a 50% win rate while playing for Air Force ACE).
Overall I would have to say Day9 just because of his dominance in so many WCG's however at the moment, because he is still in school and not doing any serious gaming, I would have to say Artosis.
On March 25 2011 08:11 SplashbackFerret wrote: Don't know if this has been mentioned, but two of the Korean GOM commentators are Daezang and Oversky who were badass SC1 pros (Oversky maintained a 50% win rate while playing for Air Force ACE).
On March 25 2011 07:29 Patton3D wrote: Totalbiscuit!
Joking aside, Day9 has listed himself as a top masters and random on his blip.tv profile so he is higher than I think most people assume. I also remember hearing that Psy broke top 200 ladder in the US a while ago but has not quite made it back.
Edit: exact quote
High level commentary on competitive Starcraft matches from a 12-year veteran and top player. Day[9] has been rated A+/A on ICCUP/PGT on multiple accounts over multiple seasons, has qualified for the WCG USA finals 7 times, has qualified for the WCG Grand Finals 3 times, and won the Pan American Championship in 2007. In Starcraft 2 Day[9] is a top rated Master League player as random.
To be honest I don't think Day9 ever was A+/A on iccup... I might be mistaken and I love day9, but that can only be PGTOur (at best)
You don't think a WCG Champion can break A on iccup... -.-
Yup, on Daily 269 he talks about having three A+ accounts in one season, and being disappointed with himself on that very achievement.
On March 25 2011 00:47 ppshchik wrote: Quite surprised of people saying Artosis oversince Artosis said Day9 is his biggest rival. You guys seem to imply that Artosis can wipe the floor with Day9 in a Bo5
Edit: NVM I didn't know Day9 attends school. So Artosis def. has more practice hours than him...
Day9 is Artosis' rival from Brood War. Day9 isn't progamer material in SC2 unless he starts playing again.
As for Brood War, they're probably equal after so long, but Artosis' mechanics would be stronger after such a hiatus.
The answer is Artosis. Day is focusing on school atm while Artosis is only focusing on starcraft 2 24/7. Day was indeed a great brood war player, but so was Artosis.
Here is a link to the TSL 1 qualifiers in spring of 2008. Notice that Artosis is ranked B+ which is nothing to sneeze at. Day is also ranked B- with only a fraction of the games that Artosis played. If Day played more games he would obviously be ranked much higher.
Day was a great player, but Artosis was also very skilled. At the beginning of the iccup and post PGTour days Day started to focus more on school and commentary and naturally his starcraft skill diminished. This is not to say he is bad or anything he would whoop me silly.
Artosis is better at the moment because he is putting more time into playing the game and putting more time into the game in general. I guess we will never know who is the best until when or if Day starts to put more time into playing the game. Day may have been ranked top 200, but I also remember Artosis being ranked very high up on the Korean server before he started commentating GSL.
Artosis most likely right now. Day 9 is a dark horse, nobody knows because he plays on a super secret cereal covert smurf, although I have no doubt that he is in Master's and given proper practice could probably do incredibly well. The guy is incredibly smart. iNcontroL is not really a full commentator right now, but when the NASL starts him and Gretorp will most likely be second and third. Tasteless is most likely rounding out the top 5.
I believe the answer is Day 9. If day 9 decided to come back to competative gaming he'd wipe the floor with 99% of the foreign scene you can't put a price on the exsperience and machanics that guy has and don't forget most of the casters are failed players thats why they've gone down the casting reuite
Artosis has so much passion and love for the game he's casting and training until he gets a break and gets into the gsl thats probley why he took the job in korea to be at the centre of the scene and to become better
Psy, hands down. No offense, but Artosis is a terrible player. He is low/mid masters. Psy can match most pros (hes beaten everyone on team ROOT as well as many other professionals) and plays at the high masters level.
On March 25 2011 08:29 lilky wrote: Psy, hands down. No offense, but Artosis is a terrible player. He is low/mid masters. Psy can match most pros (hes beaten everyone on team ROOT as well as many other professionals) and plays at the high masters level.
LOL
Before Artosis stopped playing he was a GREAT player. I am sure now that he is practicing again he will become good again.
On March 25 2011 08:29 lilky wrote: Psy, hands down. No offense, but Artosis is a terrible player. He is low/mid masters. Psy can match most pros (hes beaten everyone on team ROOT as well as many other professionals) and plays at the high masters level.
Wrong! Artosis is near top masters as he has been playing more lately!
We've seen him beat Artosis in SC1. He beat Tasteless in the SC2 showmatch. Plus he crushed quite a few of the other casters mentioned in SC2 as well, despite not playing seriously.
On March 25 2011 00:54 Darksteel wrote: TLO (iem commentary was epic) Artosis
InControl and prolly all progamers that commentate and play competatively at the same time are around the same level skill wise.
+1 has to be TLO.
His interviewing skills are so good as well. He picks out extremely techincal things that i haven't heard any other commentator pick up. His questions are around timing etc, he almost tells the player what they did wrong in question form.
Assuming we're not counting active progamers who have casted a game or two on the side like TLO, and just 'full time' commentators... The only three names in contention are Day9, Tasteless and Artosis, IMO. Artosis is probably the best right now because it seems like he's played more in the past year. Any of them could be the best of the bunch by just practicing for a little while, none of them gets enough play time.
What caster can actually claim to be better than Artosis with proof? Saying Psy beat a bunch of ROOT guys on ladder doesn't mean anything. I beat a ROOT guy today on ladder, I cheesed the shit out of him. It's not impressive. Tourny wise though.. Artosis got into GSL as a foreigner as zerg before all the patches.
I've seen Artosis, Psy, Gretorp, Day, and Incontrol play. Artosis or Gretorp take the top.
If celebrity casts count, then yes IdrA wins cause of his GSL cast. Sheth and Painuser are pretty damn good too if we count their casts^^ IdrA > Sheth > Gretorp==Artosis > The rest.
On March 25 2011 08:41 grumpyone wrote: Day9 - though Artosis is quite good as well.
We've seen him beat Artosis in SC1. He beat Tasteless in the SC2 showmatch. Plus he crushed quite a few of the other casters mentioned in SC2 as well, despite not playing seriously.
Artosis, Idra, iNcontroL, and Day[9] all come to mind. I prefer Day the most, but that's a completely subjective decision. I think once you get to the very top, all of the casters who have played professionally have almost the same amount of game knowledge, so it comes down to whose discussion and commentating style you prefer.
On March 25 2011 08:49 Mercadia wrote: What caster can actually claim to be better than Artosis with proof? Saying Psy beat a bunch of ROOT guys on ladder doesn't mean anything. I beat a ROOT guy today on ladder, I cheesed the shit out of him. It's not impressive. Tourny wise though.. Artosis got into GSL as a foreigner as zerg before all the patches.
I've seen Artosis, Psy, Gretorp, Day, and Incontrol play. Artosis or Gretorp take the top.
If celebrity casts count, then yes IdrA wins cause of his GSL cast. Sheth and Painuser are pretty damn good too if we count their casts^^ IdrA > Sheth > Gretorp==Artosis > The rest.
TLO made the GSL as well. He also plays random at a high level so i'd suggest he'd have as good a technical understanding as Artosis.
I think it would be even between those two, TLO slightly better player, Artosis a slightly better commentator
"Best caster" is a self-defeating title. The caster with the most playing skill is going to be the best player who happens to do some casting. Of course, these people tend to get disqualified from consideration, because they are successful pro-gamers rather than being most known for their casting. In other words, when you become good enough, people no longer consider you a caster.
That being said, the person with the most skill who is currently a full-time caster is almost undoubtedly Artosis. Day9 has phenomenal mechanics and an amazing grasp of RTS fundamentals and strategy, but his knowledge of the specific timings and nuances that make up the current meta-game are (understandably) behind. Artosis clearly has a lot of first-hand knowledge of these nuances, and demonstrates them to great effect.
My guess is Artosis and Day9. Can't wait to see how Day plays after he graduates (if he has the time to practice), but right now Artosis is probably slightly better
Day9 won a world cyber games over artosis and his brother. Given he doesnt play much anymore BUT if think if we were given 1 week to prepare for a showmatch he would have a good chance at taking down pretty much anyone.
On March 25 2011 10:47 Meldrath wrote: Day9 won a world cyber games over artosis and his brother. Given he doesnt play much anymore BUT if think if we were given 1 week to prepare for a showmatch he would have a good chance at taking down pretty much anyone.
On March 25 2011 09:16 Giwoon wrote: this thread needs a poll too many posts
yea lol a poll would be a nice way to sum up 16pgs. but to keep convention in tact, I think Artosis is the best player right now but i wouldn't be surprised if Day9/Tasteless were right where he is. Husky is the worst. Psy and Incontrol are mid-high masters iirc? HD is mid masters I think..
I'm assuming we're not talking about players like TLO or IdrA who do some commentary on the side or this thread would be very pointless.
On March 25 2011 08:11 SplashbackFerret wrote: Don't know if this has been mentioned, but two of the Korean GOM commentators are Daezang and Oversky who were badass SC1 pros (Oversky maintained a 50% win rate while playing for Air Force ACE).
Artosis, he switched races from to while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing .
Edit: My bad, I thought I heard he played an OGs player, it was Byun. My bad. Impressive no matter how you spin it. Byun, all the more better.
On March 25 2011 10:53 AceDauntless wrote: Anyone else wanna see a tourney between all the famouse casters?
Day9, artosis, tasteless, husky, hd, totalbiscuit, psy, and a bunch of others.
Would be awesome.
I would after you give Artosis and Day9 legitimate time to prepare. Put them on oppisite sides of the bracket too. Also throw Totalbiscuit out, hes like in the silver league. (pretty sure its close to a fact, and not an opinion)
On March 25 2011 10:53 AceDauntless wrote: Anyone else wanna see a tourney between all the famouse casters?
Day9, artosis, tasteless, husky, hd, totalbiscuit, psy, and a bunch of others.
Would be awesome.
I would after you give Artosis and Day9 legitimate time to prepare. Put them on oppisite sides of the bracket too. Also throw Totalbiscuit out, hes like in the silver league. (pretty sure its close to a fact, and not an opinion)
Yeah, he plays Terran and said he could not remember the hotkey for an SCV when he was commentating once. It could have been sarcasm, but I think he was admitting his low level of play also.
It's definitely Artosis. The guys qualified for a GSL, and what he was talking about, almost qualified for Code A in the January season. He had Byun beat in late late late game but lost because of no detection (IIRC).
On March 25 2011 10:57 TheRPGAddict wrote: Artosis, he switched races from to while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing .
Edit: My bad, I thought I heard he played an OGs player, it was Byun. My bad. Impressive no matter how you spin it.
Ya how unimpressive taking a game off Byun, who then went on to lose 4:3 in that season's finals, and make it out of group stage in this season's Code S. Can't exactly fault him for getting manhandled by MC either. Probably makes it more impressive than any of the other oGs players it could've been.
We've seen him beat Artosis in SC1. He beat Tasteless in the SC2 showmatch. Plus he crushed quite a few of the other casters mentioned in SC2 as well, despite not playing seriously.
Just in case this isn't a joke, all of those were pranks and the caster had no idea he was playing against Day9 so it's hardly fair You should probably post the one where Sean owned me with a mothership while pretending to be LisaNova as well XD
Also throw Totalbiscuit out, hes like in the silver league. (pretty sure its close to a fact, and not an opinion)
Heeeyyy :[ I'm plat and almost beat Kelly once. You're not impressed are you? :[
Artosis... his knowledge base of starcraft and starcraft 2 is profound. He has a great memory which is really important (he remembers friggin everything, even small details from stuff long past), and he is great with foreseeing possibilities, and builds.
Can't forget that he plays Starcraft 2 A TON (and BW back then), and at a really high level, and he also lives in SKorea (the SC/SC2 Capital of world), and almost every thing he does for fun involves SC/SC2.
Either watching, playing, or commentating, Artosis is consistently fresh up to date on all the new styles and etc.
The caster - player hybrids are obviously the best. As for pure casters, I'm going for Artosis since he's really quite knowledgeable and plays frequently. Day9 would be good in my opinion, if he actually played.
On March 25 2011 10:57 TheRPGAddict wrote: Artosis, he switched races from to while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing .
Edit: My bad, I thought I heard he played an OGs player, it was Byun. My bad. Impressive no matter how you spin it.
Ya how unimpressive taking a game off Byun, who then went on to lose 4:3 in that season's finals, and make it out of group stage in this season's Code S. Can't exactly fault him for getting manhandled by MC either. Probably makes it more impressive than any of the other oGs players it could've been.
It was an oGs player, actually. Artosis lost to oGskkOma (LittleBoy) in the Code A qualifying matches. Artosis lost to Byun (who was called Bleach at the time) in GSL1, when Byun played Protoss and Artosis played Zerg.
On March 25 2011 10:57 TheRPGAddict wrote: Artosis, he switched races from to while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing .
Edit: My bad, I thought I heard he played an OGs player, it was Byun. My bad. Impressive no matter how you spin it.
Ya how unimpressive taking a game off Byun, who then went on to lose 4:3 in that season's finals, and make it out of group stage in this season's Code S. Can't exactly fault him for getting manhandled by MC either. Probably makes it more impressive than any of the other oGs players it could've been.
It was an oGs player, actually. Artosis lost to oGskkOma (LittleBoy) in the Code A qualifying matches. Artosis lost to Byun (who was called Bleach at the time) in GSL1, when Byun played Protoss and Artosis played Zerg.
On March 25 2011 01:16 Sein wrote: I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level. I believe he will probably be very good once he goes into full-time progaming, but as of now, he most likely lacks practice and is not that great of a player, which is why I think he refuses to show games of himself playing.
Not practicing doesn't make you a less good player, it just means you're out of shape and can't compete seriously.
If somebody was a top player at some point, and he's not too old (which Sean isn't), it's not something that just goes away. Couple of months with proper motivation is all that's needed.
In all honesty, I do think a lot of newer fans mention Day9 only because of his exposure in the community. However, I personally consider an accomplished top foreign BW player to easily have what it takes to rank above most active competitors in SC2 nowadays if he was serious about it and motivated to do it.
"Couple of months with proper motivation is all that's needed."
That's pretty much what I said.
"Not practicing doesn't make you a less good player, it just means you're out of shape and can't compete seriously."
Not being able to compete seriously right now means that you are not a good player right now, period. I don't believe that we're discussing "casters who will be be very good with 2 months of full time practice".
Probs Psy/Day 9. Both seem to have such an incredible understanding of just what to do when, and seem to be able to predict the coming actions of the players
Those are the top 4 casters on game knowledge imo, with artosis and day9 a bit above inc and gretorp if for nothing else because they've played all 3 races whereas inc and gretorp are much more focused on a single race.
The fact that day9 has always played random and is as good as he is says a lot about the vast knowledge he has on all three races.
On March 25 2011 13:49 -orb- wrote: Artosis, Day9, Incontrol, Gretorp
Those are the top 4 casters on game knowledge imo, with artosis and day9 a bit above inc and gretorp if for nothing else because they've played all 3 races whereas inc and gretorp are much more focused on a single race.
The fact that day9 has always played random and is as good as he is says a lot about the vast knowledge he has on all three races.
does day9 actually even play? like, has he in the past months? is he active at all? i know he makes it seem like he likes his privacy, but... i realllllly get the feeling he hasn't played sc2 that much post-beta.
On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time.
They obviously try to make it exciting for the casual viewer lol
Exciting by saying that it's over?
They're all the time 'Yeah, we could pretend that it's not over to make it more exciting, but he actually has 0% chance of coming back'. -> comes back.
By claiming that something is 100% ensured it causes excitement when it doesn't happen. i.e if everybody said someone was 100% guarenteed to fail in a major tournament it sure as hell would be exciting to watch them climb their way to the top.
When MC holds after such a comment the viewer is excited because what happened seems more miraculous that it actually was.
By claiming that in an excited voice maybe, not by calmly stating 'Yap, this match is over, now, some of you noobs at home might actually think that it's not, but trust me, there is no way he can ever come back.'
You honestly think they publicly make a fool out of themselves and put their knowledge in dispute because their contract says them to make such bad calls as it makes the game 'more exciting', don't be such a fanboy trying to rationalize the fact that your heroes make mistakes.
Artosis gets things right 99% of the time, how many times has a game been 2 minutes in and he says "I bet x goes for this and his opponent does this" and then is proven exactly right 30 secs later.
It's not hard to get that right 99% of the time and he'smore like 95%.
Recognising when a game is totally over is quite easy actually, people do it all the time on ladder, without third person view even, it's when they gg.
Actually predicting builds due to the nature of the opponent / map / previous games is not as easy as you make it out to be, think about the GSTL where even more factors come into play, ie are they just throwing this guy out there to put the opponent on tilt for the next person, will it be some kind of funky timing push/greedy fast expands/standard macro/cheese for X reasons. If you think about the number of builds for each race + each different matchup / map etc there is a lot more to take into consideration than just oh its a PvZ i think we'll see 3gate expand.[/quote]Where did I talk about predicting builds? I'm talking about 'x goes attack y, Artosis says 'There is 0% chance y can hold this without sacrificing this expansion. and y holds it with the expansion easily in tact without effort.'
As for recognising when a game is over, we can read gg ourselves, having the casters repeat that serves no purpose i don't even get what you're getting at here.
Quite evidently, for that's not what I meant.
The 'they' referred to the players at home themselves. What I meant is that anyone can recognise when a game is completely over, as people do it at home on the ladder all the time, they realize when they have no chance any more and don't even need a third person view to determine that, at that point they gg.
You have to agree that it's pretty easy to see when a game is totally over, right? Especially in third person.
When they actually engaged you might of been able to see the nexus was going to survive, however unless you made that call at the same time he did theres no use comparing. (and if you did how could you take into account mc's stalkers and how mma would react to the stalling) Artosis simply commentated on what he thought was going to happen at the current pace of the game.
And he was wrong, very wrong. The nexus survived with no trouble and minimal losses.
And I was sceptical the moment he said that.
I'm not even going to touch the viking debate cause tbh i have no idea how it all matches up.
It matches up quite reasonably and you should give it a try, that vikings are bad on the ground is a big myth that you cannot back up by either unit stats nor just testing it out. This is something people keep repeating through the parrot effect, probably because their attack animation looks weak as I hypothesized in one thread. (Same with phoenices being paper airplanes while they have some of the highest hp of any air unit)
How does talking analytically mean he doesn't know a lot? (it doesn't necessarily mean he does, but it in no way means he doesn't either) the way i see it is hes breaking down the decision making and the play as its going on to get a better understanding which he shares with the viewers.
It doesn't per se mean that, but his analytics are often just really trying to find an explanation on the spot. Most evidenced in the case of the armour upgrade that San took first (seriously, this guy has been preaching to not use 2base colossus but he doesn't know that if you go with high templar you've GOT TO get armour first as you will be zealot heavy and storm doesn't improve with attack), he sees it, doesn't understand it, and comes up with a very convoluted explanation to why San might do this instead of the basic reasoning 'He's going ht, he's zealot heavy, +1 armour turns 5 damage from the marine into 4, and 9 from the marauder into 8, this scales a lot harder than +1 attack, also, his main dps is coming from storm which isn't improved by +1 attack.
The explanation is simple as can be...
This so called 'hipster reasoning' that you've dubbed is what starcraft 2 is all about, finding new ways to defeat your opponent. Of course Artosis loves this, who doesn't enjoy seeing something brand new? Its exciting to watch, you can only watch so many 4 gates before it gets stale.
No, this isn't what I call hipster reasoning. What I mean is that the guy is a fan of strategies that may not be powerful but not everyone does it. Like he hates 2base colossus simply because everyone does it. And then he tries to rationalize why it's not good, (while at the same time saying it's overpowered in his imbalanced talkshow) with all kinds of mumbo-jumbo about cost and being hard to support of 2base. He could just admit he hates it because it's done before and trite.
Not even sure where you got that hes 'desperately trying to find a justification' for why 2 base colosi is bad, sure he doesn't like it but i haven't seen him clutching at straws at any point trying to defend his dislike of two base colosi (i may of missed some of the GSL where he did this, feel free to direct me to it).
He has a lot of times tried to present a rationalisation why 2base colossus is bad.
In my eyes you seem to have an unreasonable expectation of the casters, they are there to make the game fun to watch for the masses not to act as robots simply spouting facts, which would be quite boring to watch for any length of time and isn't really feasible anyway. feel free to let me know if i totally got the wrong idea.
Well, I'm just saying that he does these things while others don't or do less so.
Like, I'm not claiming he's the worst in this (Husky is faaar worse in coming up with retarded explanations), but his knowledge of the game is certainly not as high as many people make it out to be, he just 'talks knowledgeable' all the time while often what he says is just wrong. (The +1 armour part was especially embarrassing for someone who preaches going ht, getting armour before attack is an essential part of going twilight tech.)
On March 25 2011 08:41 grumpyone wrote: Day9 - though Artosis is quite good as well.
We've seen him beat Artosis in SC1. He beat Tasteless in the SC2 showmatch. Plus he crushed quite a few of the other casters mentioned in SC2 as well, despite not playing seriously.
I think PsY is one of the best around Of course, there are all the pro-level commentators (Tastosis[9]) who, while I havent seen them play, I am sure are decent players
From what I've heard from his colleagues, Day9 isn't as good at SC2 as people seem to think. He was a monster at BW, but he's nothing special at SC2. Game knowledge is great, but playing requires putting it into action and I'm pretty sure Day9 doesn't have that kind of practice.
Regarding the OP, most likely a pro who commentates on the side or a full-time commentator like Artosis.
Artosis is pretty dam god i believe. Day9 isn't playing "hardcore" anymore, as far as i know Day9 was owning Artosis in BW days. So i believe Day9 is probably the best atm, just doesn't have that much time due to collage while Artosis JOB is to watch/play starcraft2 .
Hrm, has? That implies right now, who has the most skill. Therefore, that is pretty clearly Artosis, inc being second.
Edit: Day9 probably isn't that high up on the list, as he unfortunately has a life that causes him to not have the time to hardcore train that other casters may have.
On March 25 2011 03:43 OldBamboo wrote: Day is getting his M.S. in Math, right? That takes one heck of a self-disciplined mind.
I think the question is: Does Day9 have the talent to use with his genius brain and become a dominant sc2 gamer. If he can't execute all of the brilliant ideas/strategies he comes up with, then he'll be limited in how far he can go.
He's getting his M.S in a design field. I don't remember exactly what his degree is but his math degree is from Harvey Mudd.
SC2 takes all the intelligence of a prepubscent korean boy (leenock).
I suppose Day9 could formalize the strategies:
Day9's lemma: Just go fucking kill him.
Under those auspices, Broodwar takes the intelligence of a 13 year old *BaBy*, get that trash out of here and please come back w/ a better attitude.
On March 25 2011 07:29 Patton3D wrote: Totalbiscuit!
Joking aside, Day9 has listed himself as a top masters and random on his blip.tv profile so he is higher than I think most people assume. I also remember hearing that Psy broke top 200 ladder in the US a while ago but has not quite made it back.
Edit: exact quote
High level commentary on competitive Starcraft matches from a 12-year veteran and top player. Day[9] has been rated A+/A on ICCUP/PGT on multiple accounts over multiple seasons, has qualified for the WCG USA finals 7 times, has qualified for the WCG Grand Finals 3 times, and won the Pan American Championship in 2007. In Starcraft 2 Day[9] is a top rated Master League player as random.
To be honest I don't think Day9 ever was A+/A on iccup... I might be mistaken and I love day9, but that can only be PGTOur (at best)
His repeated ability to beat A+ players left and right and sponsorship by the best players hands down in the north american scene say that your statement just doesn't matter.
It's hard to believe how many people list Day9. He says a lot of fancy things and is very emphatic most of the time, but at the end of the day this doesn't make him a good player. There is a lot of sycophancy on the TL forums. I even think that his analysis isn't as impressive as so many like to think. It's all hindsight and so convoluted... it's like charlatan fortune tellers.
That said, I like Day 9, but Artosis is likely the best caster.
On March 25 2011 10:53 AceDauntless wrote: Anyone else wanna see a tourney between all the famouse casters?
Day9, artosis, tasteless, husky, hd, totalbiscuit, psy, and a bunch of others.
Would be awesome.
I would after you give Artosis and Day9 legitimate time to prepare. Put them on oppisite sides of the bracket too. Also throw Totalbiscuit out, hes like in the silver league. (pretty sure its close to a fact, and not an opinion)
Yeah, he plays Terran and said he could not remember the hotkey for an SCV when he was commentating once. It could have been sarcasm, but I think he was admitting his low level of play also.
Watch his I Suck at Starcraft series on youtube.. he's silver and fully admits he's not good.
You have to define who a "caster" is. Personally I feel like a decent starting point would be to say something like "a caster is someone who spends more time casting than playing". However, that guideline specifically wouldn't work because the two aren't really directly comparable, as you can ladder grind for 8 hours a day, but casting that amount of time is insane, not to mention all the editing, rendering and uploading time.
On March 25 2011 00:47 gr8ape wrote: Not Husky Not Hdstarcraft Not Jp Not DJwheat
not moletrap not diggity not theGunrun
Chill is probably the best pure caster-player I could name with no real tournament or sponsorship experience unlike Artosis, Tasteless, and Day[9], Incontrol et al.
I would probably consider WCG Canada, aswell as IEF (sick line-up, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104061) "real" tournaments. He might have participated in some local tournaments aswell. While his experience isn't as extensive as the ones you mentioned, it's still more than most "pure caster-players".
What about the Korean castors for GSL, they must be beasts. I haven't seen Day9 play in recent times so I am not going to presume how good he is or isn't as of compared to the others due to no basis of comparison.
TotalBiscuit is quite good I really want to see him play in IEM
i used to watch artosis replay packs as well as POV videos he posted a while ago on TL, he is damn good but havent seen a single replay since than so dont know how good he is now.
Artosis for sure. Even though he doesn't have as much time as he once did to play this game, he can for sure take a game against some korean progamers. Which of course the reason to his vast knowledge about the game when casting.
As for my two cents, i think we can very much call inControl a caster at this point as he will be casting the NASL and has cast many things in the past. As for Artosis having very little understanding of the game, i think that is nonsense, it is true that Tastosis do(es?) sometimes make bad calls, because they are paid to hype the game, and making bold predictions is fun to watch.
That said, from a lot of hours of simply listening to each commentator, as well as the few i have had the chance to watch i think i would place them like so: inControl > Artosis > Psy/Day9/Rotterdam*>Chill/Tasteless>HD>Wheat>JP>Husky>TotalBiscuit
I added the last few just for the sake of thoroughness, even though as players i don't really think they have much to say, admittedly i know little about JP's playing.
*i have no idea how to choose between them, it would 100% depend on how much Day9 and Rotty practice, but i believe that they can both be better than Psy
Artosis definitely has the highest skill level of all active 'professional' commentators. If you saw some of his games during the beta, and even his Ro64 GSL, you'd see just how good he was despite working at GOM for so many hours a day.
He apparently played oGsHero and won (fairly recently). I'm sure if you've been paying attention to the FXOpen you should have an idea of how beastly oGsHero is. I'm currently at work so I can't check out the replay, so yall can just take a look at it and see just how good he is.
I believe Artosis. He clearly PLAYS a heck of a lot more than any of the other "high level" casters. He's also playing on the Korean ladder.
On a related note though, if there was to be a showmatch between Artosis and Day[9], with themselves casting it together from replays, wouldn't that be the most awesomest thing ever?
Back in the day, HD and Husky casted themselves in a Bo5, and it was pretty sweet (actually that was one of the first set of Star2 vods I ever watched I think... I joined the scene late) But Artosis and Day[9] would be x10 as awesome! I hope the SC2 gods align and make this possible one day!
He apparently played oGsHero and won (fairly recently). I'm sure if you've been paying attention to the FXOpen you should have an idea of how beastly oGsHero is. I'm currently at work so I can't check out the replay, so yall can just take a look at it and see just how good he is.
Hmm, the only question is that all of those replays are of him playing Zerg, whereas he still mentions frequently in GSL that he plays Protoss more these days. Perhaps that's under a different account though.
I find all the criticism of artosis lol in this thread.
Watching other casters 99 percent of the time they just call what is seen or make blatantly obvious calls. Artosis actually makes predictions and is not casting pre seen replays either.
But seeing as how he is the only full time commentator to qualify for gsl, and do relatively well on kr ladder i would say he is far and away the best, then again i don't count the pro's that moonlight as commentators.
Obviously it would be one of the professional players like Incontrol, Gretorp, or Sheth, but unless we create a rigorous league of competition specifically for commentators, there's really no saying (with good reason) that any of them are better than the others. The commentators who haven't secured any comparable tournament results really shouldn't even be in the running for "highest play skill level" though I'm sure legends like Day9 and Artosis could ascend to that level given full-time practice.
It's somewhat of an irrelevant consideration anyways because of the fact that no one can spend maximum time on both pursuits. Believe it or not, but time spent commentating improves one's commentary, and time spent playing improves one's play... moreso than it improves anything else. The best in the world usually won't be commentators, and the best commentators will probably not be bonjwas.
On March 25 2011 00:45 ShinyGerbil wrote: it depends on who you consider a commentator. Gretorp and iNcontroL are very strong players but they aren't as committed to commentating as artosis. However, PsY and Artosis are perhaps the strongest players who are also top commentators. Day9 is a total dark horse, nobody knows what his real skill level is at so I wouldn't even bother discussing that.
that'S exactly right.
In my opinion RotterdaM is a pretty strong player too, considering he's primarily a commentator.
commentating doesn't make you a better player. Thats akin to saying commentating basketball is gong to make you a better basketball player. Yeah maybe you have an advantage on a 12 year old but against any real player who trains your commentating wont help you at all. We all love day9 but some people take too much of what he says as gospel
On March 25 2011 23:15 woofwoof wrote: commentating doesn't make you a better player. Thats akin to saying commentating basketball is gong to make you a better basketball player. Yeah maybe you have an advantage on a 12 year old but against any real player who trains your commentating wont help you at all. We all love day9 but some people take too much of what he says as gospel
That's like saying that when you talk to your friends about the game and think deeply about the game that you won't become better. Your mechanics might not become better, but if you are making a shitty unit mix then execution isn't going to matter as much either.
Good analytical commentators play the game along with talking about the game with friends. Commentating a physical sport isn't the same as commentating a mental game, so the link between the two isn't coherent. Day9 talks broadly about the game and his BW background gives him an extra edge in understanding a similar game.
Definately Incontrol if you count him as a commentator. Otherwise Artosis no contest. His knowledge of the game alone makes him a threat even if he needs to brush up on his mechanics.
On March 25 2011 18:40 bigjenk wrote: I find all the criticism of artosis lol in this thread.
Watching other casters 99 percent of the time they just call what is seen or make blatantly obvious calls. Artosis actually makes predictions and is not casting pre seen replays either.
There is a difference between making a prediction that is wrong and saying 'There is no chance he's coming back, some of you noobs at home might think that he can possibly come back if he does ... but trust me guys, there is absolutely no way.', after which he comes back.
Calling a game over is also not a prediction, saying what someone is going to probably do is.
Also, there's a lot more we criticized, like the fact that despite constantly preaching to go templar, he was unaware that one has to get armour before attack upgrades then, and the next week when obviously tonnes of people mailed him on it he was like 'Yeah, he gets armour before attack, that's what you have to do.' sounding all confident (I doubt he still understands the real reason).
Or the fact that he perpetuates popular myths about vikings which have no empirical backing whatsoever but are just sustained by the parroting effect.
Also, he has a tendency to call people good just because they win (winning is a lot about luck) instead of them actually being good and then trying to rationalise this. Come on, San isn't THAT good, he makes some good decisions, but also some bizarrely bad ones. But it's a cool story how he suddenly got that far.
But most importantly the fact is his analyses which are filled with shaky logic, it's like talking to a psycho-analyst, trying to find a connexion or pattern between simple things which may or may not be true.
On March 25 2011 00:47 emythrel wrote:he said on SotG he intends to once school is over
Actually what he said was that he "plans on doing sc2 fulltime". While I do want to see him play competitively, that could mean that he will become a fulltime commentator/promoter/esports organizer kind of thing, and if goes down that way he probably wouldn't have the time to become a top pro.
But who knows, hopefully it'll come out the way you said
I think Sean could definitely be the best commentator/ player if he dedicated more time to playing. He was great at BW and that skill would definitely carry over.
On March 26 2011 03:26 Ethic wrote: Uh guys? Tastosis? Archon is better than Templar.
Lolnowhat.
Maybe better than a templar out of energy. In most situations a high templar with enough energy to perform a storm is worth more than an archon, of course, there are exceptions, like versus ultralisks or immortals or something.
I would have to go with Artosis, he manages to stay in the top 200 most months on the Korean server, the server with probably the highest overall skill level. Of course any fully-committed players that also commentate may be better than Artosis, but not by a lot.
Well Day9 said that when he's finished school, he will pursue a career in progaming. Might have to wait till then to see how good he is. But for now, I'll say Artosis.
I can´t imagine Day9 being very good, he took weeks (months?) to get into Diamond when the game was new which tells me that he´s one: not very good or two: plays too little. Or both.
Most commentators are too bad at the game sadly. Artosis has good enough knowledge though - he doesn´t say random things and pray to get a way with it like most commentators.
On March 25 2011 10:57 TheRPGAddict wrote: Artosis, he switched races from to while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing .
Edit: My bad, I thought I heard he played an OGs player, it was Byun. My bad. Impressive no matter how you spin it.
Ya how unimpressive taking a game off Byun, who then went on to lose 4:3 in that season's finals, and make it out of group stage in this season's Code S. Can't exactly fault him for getting manhandled by MC either. Probably makes it more impressive than any of the other oGs players it could've been.
Yeah I know, I was not saying it was a lesser feat and is infact more impressive given the outcome with Byun. But it would be impressive if my mis information was true or if it was Byun.
Artosis by far, although it's hard to say how good tasteless is... His analysis clearly isn't as good as it was in bw, but i'd bet he's still a really good player if he's actively playing. Can't imagine Day[9] having much time to practice with school and all the content he's doing.
Rotterdam is probably the best caster from europe as far as playing skill goes. Artosis has already proven how good of a player he is, so not much argument there. Sheth, InControl, and Gretorp are all very good players, and have done a lot of casting so far this year, most notably the Gosucoaching league, and soon the NASL. This is all just from what I have seen so far come out of these casters.
On March 26 2011 04:39 Gigaudas wrote: TLO out of the people I´ve heard commentate.
I can´t imagine Day9 being very good, he took weeks (months?) to get into Diamond when the game was new which tells me that he´s one: not very good or two: plays too little. Or both.
Most commentators are too bad at the game sadly. Artosis has good enough knowledge though - he doesn´t say random things and pray to get a way with it like most commentators.
I'm pretty sure Day9 could take a new account to masters in a day if he wanted to, he is a WCG USA champion after all. I don't know how much he actually plays, but I think he should be really good.
On March 25 2011 23:15 woofwoof wrote: commentating doesn't make you a better player. Thats akin to saying commentating basketball is gong to make you a better basketball player. Yeah maybe you have an advantage on a 12 year old but against any real player who trains your commentating wont help you at all. We all love day9 but some people take too much of what he says as gospel
That comparison doesnt work...basketball and traditional sports rely mostly on natural ability that 99% of people just dont possess (along with tons of training and practice of course). Starcraft is more of a thinking man's game and you can get further simply by having a very good grasp of the game.
On March 26 2011 04:39 Gigaudas wrote: TLO out of the people I´ve heard commentate.
I can´t imagine Day9 being very good, he took weeks (months?) to get into Diamond when the game was new which tells me that he´s one: not very good or two: plays too little. Or both.
Most commentators are too bad at the game sadly. Artosis has good enough knowledge though - he doesn´t say random things and pray to get a way with it like most commentators.
Are you serious? Day9 had 90% win ratio throughout the beta and he's easily in masters now on an unknown account. He'd be one of the best foreigners if he weren't so committed to helping esports in the west.
On March 26 2011 03:50 Azuroz wrote: artosis, if you dont realize this just by listening to one gsl cast i pity you.
You don't understand the question...
Pretty sure you misunderstood him. He's most likely referring to Artosis' vast knowledge in the game (through playing) which clearly shows in his casts.
On March 26 2011 04:39 Gigaudas wrote: TLO out of the people I´ve heard commentate.
I can´t imagine Day9 being very good, he took weeks (months?) to get into Diamond when the game was new which tells me that he´s one: not very good or two: plays too little. Or both.
Most commentators are too bad at the game sadly. Artosis has good enough knowledge though - he doesn´t say random things and pray to get a way with it like most commentators.
Are you serious? Day9 had 90% win ratio throughout the beta and he's easily in masters now on an unknown account. He'd be one of the best foreigners if he weren't so committed to helping esports in the west.
He actually has 3 different accounts, one for each race. To decide which race he plays, he rolls a die.
I hate all this nonsense talk about the skillz. You guys treat it like it's something you can measure Perhaps try to give us a context first about your definition of 'skill'. Otherwise it's indeed another ___ measuring 'war'.
I think it'd be a tie between Artosis and Day9. Artosis is probably better because he has in-game experience, and knows how a player would react and such. Day9 is better at showing specific timings and the good parts of a certain strategy. Funday Mondays are also pretty legit :D
This thread is mainly theory-crafting about commentator's skill which none of us really know. Obviously Day9 has the potential and talent to be really good, but really we have no idea how good he is at sc2 or how much he practices. Once he graduates tho, i'm sure he'll practice a lot more.
Artosis we don't really know either, especially since he's switched races. We'll find out his skill level in the NASL.
Don't count PsY out, he was selected to be one of the Redditors for the SCReddit tournament (won the damn qualifiers)... and he was literally on the verge of taking a game off of White-Ra. I wouldn't say that he's like one of the BEST player, but give the guy some credit when he deserves it.
On March 25 2011 00:45 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote: Husky for sure.
U TROLLING ME LULZ? but tbh i think artosis since he can play with koreans and seems most active but ofc day9 and the other ones are also master standrad
of known commentators it'd probably be artosis because he's had quite a bit of time to actually just play, and will be getting more time to play when he no longer is doing Code A casting...plus his 'job' doesn't really hurt him because he's basically watching streams of players doing all the in vogue or new strats.
Tasteless / Day 9: being brothers probably take similar approaches to the game being brothrs i'd assume...which is extremely analytical, so i'd suspect decreased playtime would hurt them both enough they'd be somewhere after artosis who made GSL 1.
As far as the rest goes of pure commentators kind of a toss up psy doesn't play as much anymore and anytime you stop playing your skills will begin to degrade, and obvoiusly guys like husky and HD are no where near top players...DJwheat i'm pretty sure is the lowest when day9 was coaching him i'm almost certain he was like platinum.
My wild-ass ranking is this. I'm not counting Idra or TLO or guest commentators, rather people that commentate games on a regular basis and at their own initiative. In other words, people that actually want to known as casters.
In a lot of cases, it's just too hard to call. We have no idea how much Day9 or Tasteless actually play, for instance.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Psy 7) Day 9 8) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
Ive only ever played Chill on the ladder, and can say he isnt very good given that he lost TvZ in close positions metalopolis :D I'm not sure if the skill level of the commentators really has too great of an effect on the quality of their casting though, since most commentators dont go too deeply into analysis in a tournament setting. Husky displayed a lack of knowledge a couple of times in today's TSL games, but his casting was still very enjoyable to listen to.
On March 27 2011 08:04 Defacer wrote: My wild-ass ranking is this. I'm not counting Idra or TLO or guest commentators, rather people that commentate games on a regular basis and at their own initiative. In other words, people that actually want to known as casters.
In a lot of cases, it's just too hard to call. We have no idea how much Day9 or Tasteless actually play, for instance.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Psy 7) Day 9 8) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
<-- Chasm
14) Kelly Milkes
<-- The Abyss
15) Total Biscuit
Edit: added Wheat and Kelly
Not sure if PsY is actually in the category of Artosis and PainUser, and Tasteless with Husky?
Is TotalBiscuit really that bad by the way? Never seen him play.
Also, Kelly is pretty good, lot better than Husky at least.
On March 27 2011 08:04 Defacer wrote: My wild-ass ranking is this. I'm not counting Idra or TLO or guest commentators, rather people that commentate games on a regular basis and at their own initiative. In other words, people that actually want to known as casters.
In a lot of cases, it's just too hard to call. We have no idea how much Day9 or Tasteless actually play, for instance.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Psy 7) Day 9 8) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
<-- Chasm
14) Kelly Milkes
<-- The Abyss
15) Total Biscuit
Edit: added Wheat and Kelly
Not sure if PsY is actually in the category of Artosis and PainUser, and Tasteless with Husky?
Is TotalBiscuit really that bad by the way? Never seen him play.
Also, Kelly is pretty good, lot better than Husky at least.
Not sure how good Psy is ... I thought he was better than the HD and JP tier, but could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Day 9 is really good, but I'm not sure how much he plays.
I always get this impression that Tasteless plays less seriously than Day 9 and Artosis and his pro days are behind him. But he could easily be a high Master's league player and we wouldn't know it.
As much as people bust HD's balls, he is a mid-Master's player.
I'm pretty sure Husky is a mid-diamond player and Kelly is in the mid-platinum range.
I actually have no idea if Total Biscuit plays our not.
List revised. Let me know what you guys think.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Day 9 7) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
8) Psy 9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
On March 27 2011 08:04 Defacer wrote: My wild-ass ranking is this. I'm not counting Idra or TLO or guest commentators, rather people that commentate games on a regular basis and at their own initiative. In other words, people that actually want to known as casters.
In a lot of cases, it's just too hard to call. We have no idea how much Day9 or Tasteless actually play, for instance.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Psy 7) Day 9 8) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
<-- Chasm
14) Kelly Milkes
<-- The Abyss
15) Total Biscuit
Edit: added Wheat and Kelly
Not sure if PsY is actually in the category of Artosis and PainUser, and Tasteless with Husky?
Is TotalBiscuit really that bad by the way? Never seen him play.
Also, Kelly is pretty good, lot better than Husky at least.
Not sure how good Psy is ... I thought he was better than the HD and JP tier, but could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Day 9 is really good, but I'm not sure how much he plays.
I always get this impression that Tasteless plays less seriously than Day 9 and Artosis and his pro days are behind him. But he could easily be a high Master's league player and we wouldn't know it.
As much as people bust HD's balls, he is a mid-Master's player.
I'm pretty sure Husky is a mid-diamond player and Kelly is in the mid-platinum range.
I actually have no idea if Total Biscuit plays our not.
List revised. Let me know what you guys think.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Day 9 7) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
8) Psy
Psy is really good, I think he is in the vile clan, and here is a video of him beating a top 200 ON LADDER, which would put him at very high masters at the lowest:
I would say he is at least the same level as Artosis if not higher
I'm pretty sure Husky is a mid-diamond player and Kelly is in the mid-platinum range.
I actually have no idea if Total Biscuit plays our not.
Kelly is diamond on KR. I think it's safe to say she would destroy Husky. Doa is probably just below Husky's level, I think I read he was plat on NA and silver on KR. TB mentioned being in plat most recently.
On March 27 2011 08:04 Defacer wrote: My wild-ass ranking is this. I'm not counting Idra or TLO or guest commentators, rather people that commentate games on a regular basis and at their own initiative. In other words, people that actually want to known as casters.
In a lot of cases, it's just too hard to call. We have no idea how much Day9 or Tasteless actually play, for instance.
1) Painuser 2) INcontrol 3) Sheth 4) Gretorp 5) Artosis 6) Psy 7) Day 9 8) Mr. Bitter (can't decide if he counts)
<-- Insert significant drop off here.
9) Tasteless 10) HD Starcraft 11) JP McDaniel 12) Husky 13) DJ Wheat (? I actually have no idea how good he is).
<-- Chasm
14) Kelly Milkes
<-- The Abyss
15) Total Biscuit
Edit: added Wheat and Kelly
Not sure if PsY is actually in the category of Artosis and PainUser, and Tasteless with Husky?
Is TotalBiscuit really that bad by the way? Never seen him play.
Also, Kelly is pretty good, lot better than Husky at least.
Not sure how good Psy is ... I thought he was better than the HD and JP tier, but could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Day 9 is really good, but I'm not sure how much he plays.
PsY is definitely good and he's taken games of people like Catz and Drewbie, the question is, can he do it consistently? He often casts more wins than losses.
I also love a man who's comfortable enough with his sexuality to make the remarks he makes.
I always get this impression that Tasteless plays less seriously than Day 9 and Artosis and his pro days are behind him. But he could easily be a high Master's league player and we wouldn't know it.
I gather he 4gates all day from what he says.
I'm pretty sure Husky is a mid-diamond player
Husky isn't that good no, he also has a lot of weird ideas about the game, such as that if unit x does bonus damage to unit y, then surely x must counter y?
and Kelly is in the mid-platinum range.
Nahh, she won some female tournaments and is one of the best female players in the world right now. Her account says platinum yeah, but it has like 80 points, obviously she just got placed in platinum and from there on only played 4 games or something. Not enough to get to diamond even if you win all.
I actually have no idea if Total Biscuit plays our not.
He does, and everyone says he's bad, but I've never seen him play or have any evidence of his skill.
Edit: As far as simple comprehension of this game, I would have to say PsY, there's a difference between walking the path and knowing it of course, but often he just comes with observations about it that no one makes but are still very correct.
I wonder how Khaldor plays though, like, he's obviously the best caster out there if he can make people watch his stream who don't even understand what he says.
I believe Tasteless is really good, still. For all I know he's playing in the Korean master league, and that's always something.
Psy is good enough to be just below the "also a pro player"-casters like iNcontrol and Artosis. HD is pretty solid too I think.
TotalBiscuit claims he's terrible (I mean he's probably better than the majority of the players in gold and below but that doesnt really say anything). Even if he's shaping up on his knowledge the entire execution part seems to always end with disaster. Unless it's battlecruiser rush.
Someone should organize a commentator tournament, that would settle it once and for all. Day9 and Artosis are probably the two best players out of the commentators, it's too bad we don't get to see games from them.
I think the best is Artosis (Esp now hes going to be practicing more for NASL). I honestly have no idea how good Tasteless is though. I feel like Day 9 will show in some tournaments once hes done with college and do pretty well.
I thought I heard somewhere that JP was a 3400 ish master's as Random. Anyone confirm this ? really not bad at all.
It seems weird for me to say that incontrol is the best commentator purely because I think of him as a player first and a commentator second. However as far as players who also commentate go he is definitely one of the best.
EPT
FPVOD ftw! If I'm wrong please let me know where to see his games :D
to 
while having a fully loaded commentating schedule and held his own with his new race against an OGs player in the code A qualifiers, even taking a game off of him, and this was after he just recently committed to playing 
