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Ridiculous some comments here, zealot leg-speed is too expensive for it's gain.
Zealots gain a passive 0.5 movespeed boost to 2.75.
Which is still incredible slow. They're only effective in the big ball were they can charge and beeing
supported by colossus.
I really would support the bw leg speed, boosting their base speed to something like 3.5 (imaginary number, don't get me on this), so they gain what they should with that upgrade: overall speed / mobility and make them immune to slowing abilities (concussive)
So that you can use them for scouting, forming little harassing scouts, trying to flank stuff etc.
Or forming fast moving squats with blink stalker. Gateway units become strong with good upgrades in small battles.
I would love to see deviation from those units that are only usefull in one, big ball.
Right now you CAN'T micro zealots once they're in the charging animation(and you still NEED force field to stop mmm from kiting), you just watch as they charge towards the first unit in their range and hope they get a good formation and hit their stuff.
You're unable to micro / positionen them, which is just sad.
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On March 23 2011 18:08 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it. Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs? Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic.
You can't compare upgrades like that.
without conc, protoss would walk over terran with or without charge.
If you wanna go into how much things cost, force fields come as standard, can trap all my units and can't be dispelled without a thor......... thats OP!
Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units.
conc is SUPPOSED to counter charge, without it you would just FF then charge and kill all my shit before i can get more than a few shots off.
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On March 23 2011 18:39 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:08 Piledriver wrote:On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it. Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs? Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic. You can't compare upgrades like that. without conc, protoss would walk over terran with or without charge. If you wanna go into how much things cost, force fields come as standard, can trap all my units and can't be dispelled without a thor......... thats OP! Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units. conc is SUPPOSED to counter charge, without it you would just FF then charge and kill all my shit before i can get more than a few shots off.
You seem to be forgetting Stim. A terran army can kite a chargeless zealot based army with only stim. As for forcefield, without them the protoss would never survive the early game, and would never win a battle with only gateway units due to how crap they are.
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On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge.
Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge.
The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech.
On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots.
To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.)
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On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
True, but having a more mobile army is the point of increase speed. I already found peace in not beeing able to hit maurauders with charge, but when the normal speed increase i think (it is theorycrafting, should put it to the test) zealots sometimes would be able to run away our anything. But i gonna test it on some custom map and try this shit out before i theory craft more ^^
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On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.)
I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual players/viewers, but not everyone will share the same views.
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How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map?
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On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
Why shouldn't it have priority? Calculate the cost and tech of those upgrades and explain me why shouldn't charge be better? It is obviously not the case here and they will just die in slow motion to MM again.
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
In mid to late game scenarios, 17 shots isn't anything when Marauders aren't taking any real damage.
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On March 23 2011 18:39 emythrel wrote:
Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units.
Indeed, how terrible would this game be if players could retreat without losing most of their army! I mean, who would want a game with constant skirmishes and positional warfare if you can have 20 second lopsided ball vs ball battles. Sounds absolutely terrible!
Note: Not singling out CS here. I just find it bizarre how the inability to retreat from a battle can be seen as good for the game.
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On March 23 2011 19:06 fabiano wrote:
How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map?
Flanks don't have to be a surprise. In Brood War, Protoss players knew damn well the Zerg was going to flank them with Zerglings, whether or not they scouted the flank incoming. You planned accordingly. (Mech Terrans knew they'd be flanked SO HARD every time they fought in an open space... half of playing mech Terran is to minimize the opponent's ability to flank.)
Flanks only have to be a surprise if you're flanking a faster unit with a slower one. (Such as trying to flank with Chargelots against almost anything >_<)
On March 23 2011 19:04 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.) I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual viewers, but not everyone will share the same views.
It's not a flank if you meet your opponent head on, ball versus ball, and then cast a spell behind him that restricts his movement. It is however an effective tactic that serves some of the same function, provided your army is moving at Sentry speed (2.25) in a ball.
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Wow, this is ridiculous. Zealot charge gets a buff, and suddenly its UP? I never heard anyone complain about charge beforce this buff.
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On March 23 2011 19:17 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:06 fabiano wrote:
How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map? Flanks don't have to be a surprise. In Brood War, Protoss players knew damn well the Zerg was going to flank them with Zerglings, whether or not they scouted the flank incoming. You planned accordingly. (Mech Terrans knew they'd be flanked SO HARD every time they fought in an open space... half of playing mech Terran is to minimize the opponent's ability to flank.) Flanks only have to be a surprise if you're flanking a faster unit with a slower one. (Such as trying to flank with Chargelots against almost anything >_<) Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:04 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.) I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual viewers, but not everyone will share the same views. It's not a flank if you meet your opponent head on, ball versus ball, and then cast a spell behind him that restricts his movement. It is however an effective tactic that serves some of the same function, provided your army is moving at Sentry speed (2.25) in a ball.
I'll agree that we can call it something other than flanking and that it serves some, but not all, of the same roles. I also think giving Zealots crackling level speed when upgraded would bit quite a bit beyond overkill, but that's the amount of speed you'd need to overtake a stimmed bioball and cut it off without catching an opponent offguard (stimmed units have a speed of 3.375, which is faster than Zealots would be even if they still had the equivalent BW leg enhancements). Force Fields are already very effective at thwarting stim kiting, I think if Zealots were such speed demons they'd usurp Force Field's offensive utility with no contest.
Once the upgrade kicks in Zealots would become the unit to make against Terran. The only unit they'd take serious damage from would be Hellions and they'd be clocking in at equivalent or faster speeds.
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On March 23 2011 19:33 labbe wrote:
Wow, this is ridiculous. Zealot charge gets a buff, and suddenly its UP? I never heard anyone complain about charge beforce this buff.
Really?
It's been considered nigh-worthless forever. Almost every time it's been brought up, it's either discussing (The now probably dead) immortal/HT/Chargelot, or how it needs to be cheaper.
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haha so people really thought zealots would magically hit a unit that could outrun even a charging zealot ? So funny, they just became homing chargelots. They're new damage buff is pretty nice, me likes.
For people that leave charge on autocast its probably still a a bad upgrade, wish blizzard would set it to no autocast on default hehe.
By the way this upgrade is from the price not changed from bw it even got better and it was like the upgrade of upgrades. A must have in 2 of 3 matchups, atleast in standard play.
It sounds odd, but regarding unit upgrades toss needs to learn from zerg, and regarding weapon armor upgrades a zerg needs to learn from a toss. Terrans are already upgrading everything anyway so nothing wrong there.
edit: and i always thought you can still control chargelots and they run with lightning speed around for like 10 seconds and even could start a charge against own units. Never used it (wasn't neccessary) but read it on the forum here some time ago.
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On March 23 2011 17:21 bigbeau wrote:
i think you misunderstood what blizzard did. they made it so right as the zealot would get to a marine for example, if the marine was moved away, the zealot would end its charge and not get an attack off
yes i think thats exactly how the charge was
and now they fixed it (i believe) that if it catches up with its target during the charge it would hit once
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Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price.
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I hoped for more - but blizzard buffing protoss? xD
nut gunna happn
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I never did agree with this change but if it is currently working as intended then that's a big fail on Blizzard's part, they need to learn to write their patch notes better.
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
That seems pretty clear to me. If charge is activated and the target flees, the Zealot will be guaranteed to get at least 1 hit. That is what absolutely everyone expected it to do and now it turns out that is not the case.
What was it like on the PTR? Was there really absolutely no one who tested the changes and reported on the results?
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On March 23 2011 20:16 Exarl25 wrote:
I never did agree with this change but if it is currently working as intended then that's a big fail on Blizzard's part, they need to learn to write their patch notes better.
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
That seems pretty clear to me. If charge is activated and the target flees, the Zealot will be guaranteed to get at least 1 hit. That is what absolutely everyone expected it to do and now it turns out that is not the case.
What was it like on the PTR? Was there really absolutely no one who tested the changes and reported on the results?
Well it does do that now, but not when slowed by concussive shell because the Zealot never actually reaches the Marauder.
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EPT
