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After seeing the patch notes I was most excited to see...
PROTOSS
Zealot
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
With the various other changes taking a spotlight, it was easy to overlook the major implications this posed for PvT. Whereas before chargelots would do zero damage to a bioball in open space, now they would do marginally more!
So, I jumped into a game to see if the zealot would deal the full damage (two swipes) or maybe just get a partial hit off. Sadly, all I discovered was blizzard fail. When chasing stimmed marauders w/ concussive, the most relevant application of this change, zealots will still never reach them. They, in fact, do not hit fleeing targets at least once. For those skeptical, I've attached the test replay below.
The mechanic does seem to have been tweaked somewhat. The charge animation and resulting speed lasts longer than it previously did, but it still isn't quite enough. And, to be fair, I realize the wording of the notes is somewhat misleading. Chargelots shouldn't be expected to hit fleeing stalkers that blink away for example. But, I didn't think, and hoped that stim + concussive wouldn't fit into that category.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197566.jpg)
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I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
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i think you misunderstood what blizzard did. they made it so right as the zealot would get to a marine for example, if the marine was moved away, the zealot would end its charge and not get an attack off
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Haha the guy you were playing has the same screenname of a certain famous high stakes poker player who I know does play Starcraft 2...
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wait a second I understood the patch to the charge was to catch stimmed marauders and hit them at least once... so basically charge is just as useless as it was before?
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I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
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So before the patch in 1.12 it would go:
charge into melee range---->attempt to swing--->fail sometimes
and now in 1.13:
charge into melee range---->attempt to swing->always hit
but what people thought was charge would last until it hit a unit?
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On March 23 2011 17:22 karak567 wrote:
Haha the guy you were playing has the same screenname of a certain famous high stakes poker player who I know does play Starcraft 2...
Brian Townsend. How cool would it be if it were really him? Lots of sc players play poker (Elky). It would be cool to see like Ivey play Dwan for a million dollars or something. Those guys will prop bet on anything.
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On March 23 2011 17:21 bigbeau wrote:
i think you misunderstood what blizzard did. they made it so right as the zealot would get to a marine for example, if the marine was moved away, the zealot would end its charge and not get an attack off
that would make absolutely no sense
even nony, socke and incontrol refered to it as chargelots would at least hit once even when terran is kiting for example...
if charge still would not work over the shells, ok...i can see that maybe
but if chargelots still don't hit a normal target, even if moving...than charge is...yeah, useless (maybe not completely but yeah...still won't be upgrade #1  )!
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Hmm yeah I thought the patch notes suggested that the zealot would ALWAYS hit at least once when charging towards their unit.
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On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
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I also understood it to be it WILL hit a at least once....hmmm
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I dont see how this would affect the game the way it is now. It is a change that changes nothing...
I hope it is just an error and will be fixed soon. Blizzard had to fix some stuff after every patch so far..
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Well that sucks... 
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On March 23 2011 17:31 Muckemsayuhhhh wrote:
but what people thought was charge would last until it hit a unit?
I thought zealots it would ensure they would charge into a unit. Basically charge and hit once THEN be allowed to be slowed. Obviously its good that the zealots no longer reach a unit in the game but not attack it because its moving away, but most protosses thought this was a change so that marauders could no longer easily kite them. AFAIK thats the only real issue protoss players had with chargelots in the first place..
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That's why speedlots > chargelots.
But how would it work anyway? Ignoring concussive for at least one hit and then be affected? Would sound kinda strange to me.
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boo hoo your 0 micro-mineral only-tank as fuck-dps machines can't be sitting on an army at all times
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm disappointed but not entirely surprised. I had a suspicion this change would not be as effective as Blizzard made it out to be.
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it would undermine shell too, would make no sense. marauder range would be worthless as all you had to do was lay a reasonable forcefield as you are 100% sure you zealots would make it there.
I think the fix is 100% right as it is. The issue was never marauders slow, it was that a group of units running away being chased by zealots would take no damage from charge as they would move when the zealot got there. Now you can chase down units running away and still do damage.
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yep just tested it, zealots STILL cant get a single hit of on marauders...
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On March 23 2011 17:45 ceciljacobs wrote:
boo hoo your 0 micro-mineral only-tank as fuck-dps machines can't be sitting on an army at all times
sounds like you're not making enough marauders...
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled?
Here is a diagram for everyone
![[image loading]](http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5407/hitu.png)
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Completely misleading patch notes.
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way.
What happened before 1.3 is that any unit that was in motion and moved with a minimum speed greater than or equal to the Zealot's range slop divided by its initial attack delay would cause the Zealot to charge, stop (and thus removing its charge buff), attempt to attack, then fail due to the unit being beyond the range slop. By increasing a Zealot's range slop, units have to be very fast (it may not even be possible to be fast enough, depending on what they set it to) to outrun the range slop once the zealot has begun its attack. If the Zealot never reaches the target, this change shouldn't apply (shouldn't, as in, I don't believe it was intended to, maybe you believe it should that's more in the realm of personal opinion).
I have no opinion one way or the other on whether it should or shouldn't work the way you want it to, I'm just not skilled enough for it to matter.
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In all fairness, if the charging zealot does not reach his target he should never get an attack off. I am glad Blizzard did it this way. How op would it be otherwise? You could rightclick on an unit and instagib it if you have 15 zealots, if they don't have to be in melee attack range.
Protoss, use your brain and agree on this please.
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I think the patch was supposed to stop cases where the zealots would charge up to a unit and then the unit was running away so they wouldn't be able to take their swipe. In the case of marauders, the zealots never actually GET to them, so it wouldn't apply... I haven't tested it out, yet, though.
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yeah it would be horrible op if my units could get a single hit of before dying your right.. what was i thinking
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I've seen Zealots charge and start dancing around their target before.
Maybe they fixed that?
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On March 23 2011 17:22 karak567 wrote:
Haha the guy you were playing has the same screenname of a certain famous high stakes poker player who I know does play Starcraft 2...
How do u know brian townsend plays sc2?
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On March 23 2011 17:51 Koshi wrote:
Protoss, use your brain and agree on this please.
i agree...
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On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way.
Stim + CS is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel
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Doing a few tests.
A Charging Zealot will always attack a marauder who is stimming away. A Charging Zealot won't attack a maraduer who is stim kiting with Concussive shells.
As far as I know, the latter couldn't be done pre-patch, so if you ahve a large amount of Zealots, then you should be able to get some hits in instead of none :S Still sucks, but as someone said above, if you could do damage without actually reaching the target then you could get awkward scenarios where you could gib units by charging them.
Don't know why they just cant make it so Zealots are immune to slow whilst charging, at least that way they could always get ONE hit in before being slowed and kited. But I guess getting one hit against a Marauder every 10seconds is too OP (/sarcasm)
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....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
1. Charge zealots will not do "zero damage" unless the army sizes are extremely small. For that to happen, the Terran player will need to have as many marauders as you have zealots, and will have to individually target every zealot with each marauder while stutter stepping.
2. Charge is amazing because it forces the Terran to maneuver his army. Stutter stepping reduces DPS even when done near perfectly. Charge is a form of damage mitigation.
3. Charge zealots force opponents army to be clustered, which means it indirectly increases the effective DPS of colossus / HT storm (similar to ling bling).
4. Protoss has an ability that the race is balanced around, called forcefield.
Also, arguing about the costs of upgrades relative to another races is stupid. That's not the way the game is balanced (then again I think the whole idea of "Tier" only applies to zerg and shouldn't even be used for T/P).
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What? You think Blizzard will actually give Toss a buff? That happens maybe once out of every 20 patches *wink*
But in all seriousness, although I was HOPING it would fare better against kiting marauders, it wouldn't make much sense that they would be able to land a hit if they can't even get within range in the first place (unless they made charge immune to conc. shell, which I wouldn't mind :p).
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On March 23 2011 18:00 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way. Stim + CC is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel
That bit was mainly meant for perspective sleepingdog's taking injury to his upgrade being trumped by a unit. The actual bit of my post that should be important to the topic is that second half.
On March 23 2011 18:02 Zealot Lord wrote:
But in all seriousness, although I was HOPING it would fare better against kiting marauders, it wouldn't make much sense that they would be able to land a hit if they can't even get within range in the first place (unless they made charge immune to conc. shell, which I wouldn't mind :p).
This sums up the two sides to the coin developing here very succinctly. One's what we may or may not have wished the patch note to have been, and one's logically why that patch note is sound as it actually is. As a side note, it's actually very possible for Blizzard to make charge suppress the effects of Concussive Shell while charging so a zealot can get a hit off on kiting marauders but still be slowed! I'd agree to that kind of change, but I don't design the game.
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Works as intended. A slowed charging zealot will not hit a fleeing marauder. If at any point the pursued marauder turns to fire, the zealot hits. If the zealot is not slowed, it will get off a hit when it charges. They fixed the problem and now you are complaining that they didn't buff charge..
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On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
Speed would be better in generall but not with the implementation of Concussives.
Even IF zealots would be able to hit at least once, kiting marauders would still be strong because your zealots would soon be far away from the rest of protoss' army and could be killed easily without support.
Zealots are more for tanking damage and giving terrans a need to micro their bio ball while stalkers try to deal damage and sentries try to trap units. Most of the time, all zealots are dead before they reach even trapped marauders.
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Unless there is a direct counter to mass chargelots, they can't go around eliminating the indirect counters one by one. By direct counter i mean a unit that i don't have to micro babysit to be effective - and neither marauders nor hellions accomplish that.
Sure, you can argue that the same is quite true for the marauder, and i won't deny it. So something should be done about both.
And yeah ... On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
You do know that charge also increases zealot base speed ?
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what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
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On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs?
Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic.
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this change was king of silly how could an upgrade beat "intense" micro of the other player.
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I thought the patch notes were essentially going to give infinite charge range, which seemed pretty ridiculous/horrendous/non-sensical to me. Fair enough if Blizzard fixes the mechanic, but I don't get why a lot of Protoss players think infinite charge + invulnerability to debuffs would be anything other than insane, both from balance and graphical standpoints (speedy gonzealots).
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On March 23 2011 18:00 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way. Stim + CC is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel
Stim + CC is cheaper, yes, by 50/50. That's not much. A maruader costs 25 gas each, a zealot does not. The tech lab is cheap, sure, but that's still 50/25, making our dedicated upgrade cost 200/175.
Yours is 200/200 + whatever the citadel costs. However, you use the citadel for blink as well and getting to HT and +2/+2/+2.
My point is that arguing about the cost for the upgrades is pointless.
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On March 23 2011 18:04 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:00 Sewi wrote:On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way. Stim + CC is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel That bit was mainly meant for perspective sleepingdog's taking injury to his upgrade being trumped by a unit. The actual bit of my post that should be important to the topic is that second half. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:02 Zealot Lord wrote:
But in all seriousness, although I was HOPING it would fare better against kiting marauders, it wouldn't make much sense that they would be able to land a hit if they can't even get within range in the first place (unless they made charge immune to conc. shell, which I wouldn't mind :p). This sums up the two sides to the coin developing here very succinctly. One's what we may or may not have wished the patch note to have been, and one's logically why that patch note is sound as it actually is.
I know and I agree mostly. Thats why I didnt critizise it 
i just want people to realize that charge is an upgrade that is pretty far into the protoss tech tree and requires a huge amount of recources. In my opinion, it therefor should be pretty strong against bio units since they are cheap and way easier accessable
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
Don't think anyone's denying the usefulness of Charge.
But the idea of being able to attack a CS kiting marauder once every 10seconds didn't exactly seem over the top. But I guess for some Terrans here, being able to attack a kiting marauder once every 10seconds is too absurd of an idea...
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On March 23 2011 18:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss. Don't think anyone's denying the usefulness of Charge. But the idea of being able to attack a CS kiting marauder once every 10seconds didn't exactly seem over the top. But I guess for some Terrans here, being able to attack a kiting marauder once every 10seconds is too absurd of an idea...
not only that.
I guess that peole are upset because they simply expected more from this change. With the recent HT nerf, tosses were hoping for something else that could be effective against mass marauders.
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On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
Nope I rather have charge even though I can't solo marauders early on.
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I guess it really doesn't matter if charge works or not since most protoss only build zealots with the intent to use them for meatshields because they never hit the bio army anyways rofl.
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On March 23 2011 17:42 Jayson X wrote:
That's why speedlots > chargelots.
But how would it work anyway? Ignoring concussive for at least one hit and then be affected? Would sound kinda strange to me.
Aren't Zealots supposed to be half-shifting into energy or something when they charge? It's not strange at all that they'd be immune to slow effects.
If you really wanted Charge to earn its 200/200 and be remotely comparable to Zealot Leg Enhancements, it would make the Zealot immune to all attacks while charging...
Perhaps I'm just grumpy, but Leg Enhancements : Charge seems a lot like Reaver : Colossus - the new version is easier to use in a 1a ball, but eliminates the interesting uses of the unit and reduces it to a specific role in the now-mandatory Protoss Ball.
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Concussive forces sentries in order for early zealots to be effective, once charge is out you want to be using the gas on high templar, if it doesn't fill that role then we'll just see less and less templar tech.
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On March 23 2011 18:15 storm44 wrote:
I guess it really doesn't matter if charge works or not since most protoss only build zealots with the intent to use them for meatshields because they never hit the bio army anyways rofl.
Oh they do if you aren't gonna let the Terran kite you in the open and look like an idiot. Let them get out of position a little by a wall, building or forcefield.
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This is pretty dissapointing. Even if we completely misunderstood things or read them wrong... It's utterly disappointing. I want gateway units to be useful on their own... not in superior numbers.
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As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous.
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On March 23 2011 18:17 Dingobloo wrote:
Concussive forces sentries in order for early zealots to be effective, once charge is out you want to be using the gas on high templar, if it doesn't fill that role then we'll just see less and less templar tech.
There is still the problem that marauders kite the zealots so that templars will never get in range of the bio ball while it is kiting away from toss army
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Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
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The change is that charge stops at 0.1 range from the target, which is the same as zealot attack range, so they would always land a hit when the charge stops, because of reaching it's target.
Before it would stop at 0.3125 and if the target was moving faster than the zealot he would not be able to land a hit at all.
On March 23 2011 18:07 Lurk wrote:Unless there is a direct counter to mass chargelots, they can't go around eliminating the indirect counters one by one. By direct counter i mean a unit that i don't have to micro babysit to be effective - and neither marauders nor hellions accomplish that. Sure, you can argue that the same is quite true for the marauder, and i won't deny it. So something should be done about both. And yeah ... Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D You do know that charge also increases zealot base speed ?
The speed upgrade in BW increased their speed by 50%, their SC2 speed would be 3.375(same as stimmed marines), instead of 2.75.
Leg Enhancements are clearly better for overall mobility and are consistent in battle, while Charge is better at the start of a battle, but the zealots are slower after the effect wears off.
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On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
Zealots get a movespeed buff when they get Charge (0.5 or something). I doubt that they would ever give the movespeed you would get with charge permanently, and if marauders can kite them even with such high burst speed, I don't think the BW buff would be any better, most likely a lot worse
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On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability.
I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting.
SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25
SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75
SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25%
SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8
SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167
SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45%
I'll also throw in the very general SC2 base speed: 2.25
Where 2.25 is just what most units move at before upgrades, excepting several air units, zerglings, stalkers, and those lot.
And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
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Ridiculous some comments here, zealot leg-speed is too expensive for it's gain.
Zealots gain a passive 0.5 movespeed boost to 2.75.
Which is still incredible slow. They're only effective in the big ball were they can charge and beeing
supported by colossus.
I really would support the bw leg speed, boosting their base speed to something like 3.5 (imaginary number, don't get me on this), so they gain what they should with that upgrade: overall speed / mobility and make them immune to slowing abilities (concussive)
So that you can use them for scouting, forming little harassing scouts, trying to flank stuff etc.
Or forming fast moving squats with blink stalker. Gateway units become strong with good upgrades in small battles.
I would love to see deviation from those units that are only usefull in one, big ball.
Right now you CAN'T micro zealots once they're in the charging animation(and you still NEED force field to stop mmm from kiting), you just watch as they charge towards the first unit in their range and hope they get a good formation and hit their stuff.
You're unable to micro / positionen them, which is just sad.
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On March 23 2011 18:08 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it. Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs? Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic.
You can't compare upgrades like that.
without conc, protoss would walk over terran with or without charge.
If you wanna go into how much things cost, force fields come as standard, can trap all my units and can't be dispelled without a thor......... thats OP!
Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units.
conc is SUPPOSED to counter charge, without it you would just FF then charge and kill all my shit before i can get more than a few shots off.
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On March 23 2011 18:39 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:08 Piledriver wrote:On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it. Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs? Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic. You can't compare upgrades like that. without conc, protoss would walk over terran with or without charge. If you wanna go into how much things cost, force fields come as standard, can trap all my units and can't be dispelled without a thor......... thats OP! Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units. conc is SUPPOSED to counter charge, without it you would just FF then charge and kill all my shit before i can get more than a few shots off.
You seem to be forgetting Stim. A terran army can kite a chargeless zealot based army with only stim. As for forcefield, without them the protoss would never survive the early game, and would never win a battle with only gateway units due to how crap they are.
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On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge.
Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge.
The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech.
On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots.
To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.)
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On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
True, but having a more mobile army is the point of increase speed. I already found peace in not beeing able to hit maurauders with charge, but when the normal speed increase i think (it is theorycrafting, should put it to the test) zealots sometimes would be able to run away our anything. But i gonna test it on some custom map and try this shit out before i theory craft more ^^
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On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.)
I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual players/viewers, but not everyone will share the same views.
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How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map?
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On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
Why shouldn't it have priority? Calculate the cost and tech of those upgrades and explain me why shouldn't charge be better? It is obviously not the case here and they will just die in slow motion to MM again.
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
In mid to late game scenarios, 17 shots isn't anything when Marauders aren't taking any real damage.
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On March 23 2011 18:39 emythrel wrote:
Without conc, Terran couldn't chase down fleeing units or slow retreats...... how do you think protoss would work without forcefields? How would zerg operate without being able to ling surround or fungal? Terrans only way to stop an army retreating is conc, and it can't stop any units retreating that are out of range of the rauders, even then you can't trap even half the army most of the time, only a few units.
Indeed, how terrible would this game be if players could retreat without losing most of their army! I mean, who would want a game with constant skirmishes and positional warfare if you can have 20 second lopsided ball vs ball battles. Sounds absolutely terrible!
Note: Not singling out CS here. I just find it bizarre how the inability to retreat from a battle can be seen as good for the game.
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On March 23 2011 19:06 fabiano wrote:
How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map?
Flanks don't have to be a surprise. In Brood War, Protoss players knew damn well the Zerg was going to flank them with Zerglings, whether or not they scouted the flank incoming. You planned accordingly. (Mech Terrans knew they'd be flanked SO HARD every time they fought in an open space... half of playing mech Terran is to minimize the opponent's ability to flank.)
Flanks only have to be a surprise if you're flanking a faster unit with a slower one. (Such as trying to flank with Chargelots against almost anything >_<)
On March 23 2011 19:04 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.) I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual viewers, but not everyone will share the same views.
It's not a flank if you meet your opponent head on, ball versus ball, and then cast a spell behind him that restricts his movement. It is however an effective tactic that serves some of the same function, provided your army is moving at Sentry speed (2.25) in a ball.
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Wow, this is ridiculous. Zealot charge gets a buff, and suddenly its UP? I never heard anyone complain about charge beforce this buff.
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On March 23 2011 19:17 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:06 fabiano wrote:
How can you possibly flank when there are towers giving you vision of the entire map? Flanks don't have to be a surprise. In Brood War, Protoss players knew damn well the Zerg was going to flank them with Zerglings, whether or not they scouted the flank incoming. You planned accordingly. (Mech Terrans knew they'd be flanked SO HARD every time they fought in an open space... half of playing mech Terran is to minimize the opponent's ability to flank.) Flanks only have to be a surprise if you're flanking a faster unit with a slower one. (Such as trying to flank with Chargelots against almost anything >_<) Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:04 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:53 Severedevil wrote:On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off." Wait... Terran has 200/200 in upgrades that buff their mineral sink. Specifically, Stimpacks and Combat Shields. Stim alone is blatantly superior to Charge. Zerg also has a similar amount of upgrade $$$ for their mineral sink. Adrenal glands sucks now (sorry, Zerg... I think it should be +33% attack rate like in BW, but Blizzard adjusted it to less than 20%), but Zergling Speed alone is blatantly superior to Charge. The real buff to the Protoss mineral sink is Warp Tech. On March 23 2011 18:26 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho) This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability. I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting. SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25 SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75 SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25% SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8 SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167 SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45% And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal. Map traversal and setting up flanks, which is how melee units are supposed to fight ranged. In BW, Speedlots could operate separately from your main army, because they could reasonably engage or escape from nearly any other unit. Speedlots are far more interesting than Chargelots. To me, there are currently two interesting things about Zealots in PvT - the period of time before Stimpacks finish, and uses of Warp for mobility. (For example, a Warp-in flank.) I consider flanking part of traversing the map since that's what you do when you flank. Do you feel flanking isn't possible? I kind've feel like flanking has been a big part of PvX play in the form of Force Fields and Zealots, where FFs block the retreat and zealots block the advance. That might be less exciting for individual viewers, but not everyone will share the same views. It's not a flank if you meet your opponent head on, ball versus ball, and then cast a spell behind him that restricts his movement. It is however an effective tactic that serves some of the same function, provided your army is moving at Sentry speed (2.25) in a ball.
I'll agree that we can call it something other than flanking and that it serves some, but not all, of the same roles. I also think giving Zealots crackling level speed when upgraded would bit quite a bit beyond overkill, but that's the amount of speed you'd need to overtake a stimmed bioball and cut it off without catching an opponent offguard (stimmed units have a speed of 3.375, which is faster than Zealots would be even if they still had the equivalent BW leg enhancements). Force Fields are already very effective at thwarting stim kiting, I think if Zealots were such speed demons they'd usurp Force Field's offensive utility with no contest.
Once the upgrade kicks in Zealots would become the unit to make against Terran. The only unit they'd take serious damage from would be Hellions and they'd be clocking in at equivalent or faster speeds.
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On March 23 2011 19:33 labbe wrote:
Wow, this is ridiculous. Zealot charge gets a buff, and suddenly its UP? I never heard anyone complain about charge beforce this buff.
Really?
It's been considered nigh-worthless forever. Almost every time it's been brought up, it's either discussing (The now probably dead) immortal/HT/Chargelot, or how it needs to be cheaper.
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haha so people really thought zealots would magically hit a unit that could outrun even a charging zealot ? So funny, they just became homing chargelots. They're new damage buff is pretty nice, me likes.
For people that leave charge on autocast its probably still a a bad upgrade, wish blizzard would set it to no autocast on default hehe.
By the way this upgrade is from the price not changed from bw it even got better and it was like the upgrade of upgrades. A must have in 2 of 3 matchups, atleast in standard play.
It sounds odd, but regarding unit upgrades toss needs to learn from zerg, and regarding weapon armor upgrades a zerg needs to learn from a toss. Terrans are already upgrading everything anyway so nothing wrong there.
edit: and i always thought you can still control chargelots and they run with lightning speed around for like 10 seconds and even could start a charge against own units. Never used it (wasn't neccessary) but read it on the forum here some time ago.
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On March 23 2011 17:21 bigbeau wrote:
i think you misunderstood what blizzard did. they made it so right as the zealot would get to a marine for example, if the marine was moved away, the zealot would end its charge and not get an attack off
yes i think thats exactly how the charge was
and now they fixed it (i believe) that if it catches up with its target during the charge it would hit once
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Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price.
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I hoped for more - but blizzard buffing protoss? xD
nut gunna happn
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I never did agree with this change but if it is currently working as intended then that's a big fail on Blizzard's part, they need to learn to write their patch notes better.
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
That seems pretty clear to me. If charge is activated and the target flees, the Zealot will be guaranteed to get at least 1 hit. That is what absolutely everyone expected it to do and now it turns out that is not the case.
What was it like on the PTR? Was there really absolutely no one who tested the changes and reported on the results?
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On March 23 2011 20:16 Exarl25 wrote:
I never did agree with this change but if it is currently working as intended then that's a big fail on Blizzard's part, they need to learn to write their patch notes better.
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
That seems pretty clear to me. If charge is activated and the target flees, the Zealot will be guaranteed to get at least 1 hit. That is what absolutely everyone expected it to do and now it turns out that is not the case.
What was it like on the PTR? Was there really absolutely no one who tested the changes and reported on the results?
Well it does do that now, but not when slowed by concussive shell because the Zealot never actually reaches the Marauder.
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if zelots could catch marine marauders while stiming what would be the purpose of getting other units... you would just mass zelot and win
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chargelots should be immune to concussive making it a crucial upgrade vs marauders
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It's actually harder to kite chargelots now..u need to run till charge animation finish to kite
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On March 23 2011 19:47 FeyFey wrote:
By the way this upgrade is from the price not changed from bw it even got better and it was like the upgrade of upgrades. A must have in 2 of 3 matchups, atleast in standard play.
It was 150/150 in BW, and a lot better in the context of that game than Charge is in the context of SC2. It made Zealots move nearly as fast as stimmed Marines, and made them pretty much the goto unit in PvZ. In SC2, they're nothing but a meatshield in PvT and PvP past the early game, and almost totally useless in PvZ.
On March 23 2011 20:24 Manimal_pro wrote:
if zelots could catch marine marauders while stiming what would be the purpose of getting other units... you would just mass zelot and win
Just like Terran can mass marauders in PvT, right?
Jokes aside, you'll find that if you get large enough bio ball, you'll kill all the Zealots anyway, because all of your units are ranged and can attack at the same time. Bonus points if you engage in a confined space, then it'll be total curbstomp.
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On March 23 2011 20:24 Manimal_pro wrote:
if zelots could catch marine marauders while stiming what would be the purpose of getting other units... you would just mass zelot and win
mass charge zealots get hilariously slaughtered by a ball of stimmed marauders and marines and medivacs. even if it's not kiting. with guardian shield. and better upgrades.
Even with support of a few immortals and stalkers.
we absolutely need colossus and/or high templar to make anywhere near even trades when you get a decent ball up.
Your ability to kite is actually just a bonus, changing "winning" to "winning with minimal casualties"
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Is anyone else more amazed that the OP was apparently playing sbrugby aka Brian Townsend an incredibly awesome poker player? There's probably a whole secret group of poker players playing high stakes money matches that we never hear of!
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You guys actually thought it would go through conc shells? That just doesn't make sense. That would've been another Terran nerf not a Toss buff.
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On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous.
So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs?
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Well, thats really stupid. The whole point of the change is so they actually hit a unit while being kited....very disappointed.
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So instead of nerf, nerf, buff, in reality we have nerf, nerf, "HAHA DID YOU REALLY THINK WE'D BUFF PROTOSS?!"?
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Suppose for a day, that we let stalkers shoot slow shells and then we let mauraders force field, who do you think would be more upset?
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Well, give Blizzy a yell to fix it up
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On March 23 2011 20:29 Toadvine wrote:
Jokes aside, you'll find that if you get large enough bio ball, you'll kill all the Zealots anyway, because all of your units are ranged and can attack at the same time. Bonus points if you engage in a confined space, then it'll be total curbstomp.
The problem occurs when you trade armies and the Protoss reinforces with only zealots. Small armies of bioball against chargelots can get pretty difficult especially when you have few/no medivacs.
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On March 23 2011 20:42 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
Suppose for a day, that we let stalkers shoot slow shells and then we let mauraders force field, who do you think would be more upset?
protoss needs forcefield because in a straight up fight stimmed rax units eat gateway units. so don't start that crap.
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On March 23 2011 20:41 Sanguinarius wrote:
Well, thats really stupid. The whole point of the change is so they actually hit a unit while being kited....very disappointed.
I agree that blizz patch notes are misleading.
However guaranteeing a hit when charge goes off would be a huuuuuuuuuuge buff. It would mean the zealot as infinite charge range.
The only thing blizz made was to fix the attack/animation bug. So that the attack doesn't go off if you aren't in melee range. It was more of a bug fix.
Guaranteeing a hit during charge = HUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff
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The problem we have is blizzard keeps saying they want to add more emphasis on gateway units so tier 3 won't be our only option of winning. Also, they wanted to throw in a "buff" along with all the nerfs we got, just to calm us down.
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On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
how do you think toss feels about mauraders slowing archons -.-'
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On March 23 2011 20:49 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:41 Sanguinarius wrote:
Well, thats really stupid. The whole point of the change is so they actually hit a unit while being kited....very disappointed. I agree that blizz patch notes are misleading. However guaranteeing a hit when charge goes off would be a huuuuuuuuuuge buff. It would mean the zealot as infinite charge range. The only thing blizz made was to fix the attack/animation bug. So that the attack doesn't go off if you aren't in melee range. It was more of a bug fix. Guaranteeing a hit during charge = HUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff
Yeah I don't get how people thought it would work; as you say a guaranteed hit on a fleeing target gives charge infinite range, and I don't think people thought very hard about it when it was announced.
I think this is just a fix, often a chargelot would charge up, into melee range, then just stop charging again.
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On March 23 2011 20:49 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:41 Sanguinarius wrote:
Well, thats really stupid. The whole point of the change is so they actually hit a unit while being kited....very disappointed. I agree that blizz patch notes are misleading. However guaranteeing a hit when charge goes off would be a huuuuuuuuuuge buff. It would mean the zealot as infinite charge range. The only thing blizz made was to fix the attack/animation bug. So that the attack doesn't go off if you aren't in melee range. It was more of a bug fix. Guaranteeing a hit during charge = HUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff
As I see it, this charge buff would let the zealot get 1 hit while getting kited by stimmed marauders, Before, zealots would just run up to where the marauder originally was and end the charge, while the marauder was already a short distance away, having taken zero damage.
My guess is this will be patched to work correctly soon.
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so twilight tech is officially dead in pvt
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
You are jokes. How about let's make stim just display the animation but not actually work. You dont like it? Dont upgrade it. Your loss. Now do you see how odd you sound?
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On March 23 2011 17:45 ceciljacobs wrote:
boo hoo your 0 micro-mineral only-tank as fuck-dps machines can't be sitting on an army at all times
I like you.
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On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone
This is still the post that makes the most sense to me (despite the image quality).
Are people saying that charging zealots should be immune to slow? That makes some sense. Other than that I have no idea what people want.
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On March 23 2011 20:55 Jerax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:49 papaz wrote:On March 23 2011 20:41 Sanguinarius wrote:
Well, thats really stupid. The whole point of the change is so they actually hit a unit while being kited....very disappointed. I agree that blizz patch notes are misleading. However guaranteeing a hit when charge goes off would be a huuuuuuuuuuge buff. It would mean the zealot as infinite charge range. The only thing blizz made was to fix the attack/animation bug. So that the attack doesn't go off if you aren't in melee range. It was more of a bug fix. Guaranteeing a hit during charge = HUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff As I see it, this charge buff would let the zealot get 1 hit while getting kited by stimmed marauders, Before, zealots would just run up to where the marauder originally was and end the charge, while the marauder was already a short distance away, having taken zero damage. My guess is this will be patched to work correctly soon.
No it won't and if it would the impact is so huge I dont understand how there can't be already 100 threads on TL screaming WOW HUGE PROTOSS BUFF.
You need to consider the following before discussing this:
1. Charge has a certain distance (lets for discussion say the distance is 5, idk what the real number is)
2. Attack should only go off if your are in melee distance
Now here is an example:
- Zealot get into charge distance and start charging
- Same time mauruader stim and run opposite direction
- Zealot has charged distance = 5 but not caught up to the mauruader (melee distance) due to maurader speed with stim
What do you expect to happen here in order to hit the maurader without breaking rule 1) or 2) ?
You want blizz to just "hell with charge distance, just keep charging until you are in melee range", or "throw the psi blades on the maurader to hit him".
But just consider how big that buff is.
GUARANTEE HIT. Let me say that again:
GUARANTEE HIT.
A-Move would have a whole new meaning when people are QQing about races and in this case protoss. "Toss only has to A-move chargelots without even thinking" would have a whole new meaning because this time it would actually be true because of the GUARANTEE HIT.
No risk, no thinking. Just A-move.
I excpect Suspense to do a new song about Toss then with the title "I A-move my chargelots".
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your talking like it is any different from today, Zealots always get A-Moved in big battles like Zerglings are for flanking.
Protoss has the worst Micropotential.
A fleeing M&M can't be caught with FF cause they can outrun Sentry FF Range and dance around it to make you waste energy.
People thought this small buff in return would give us the time to survive in such battles until HTs are ready to storm, since this is not the case, endless kiting is still possible.
Zealots might have high dps on paper but their effective dps is way below standard, when your opponent micros properly.
You on the other hand have no potential to micro, flanking with zealots (still possible obviously)
Zealots are too slow, to get in the small charge range.
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Um, when your Marauder a-moves, that is also a "GUARANTEED HIT." Because it's ranged. So quit tossing that phrase around as if it's an obviously imbalanced concept, when every single freaking unit in the Terran arsenal does "GUARANTEED HITS". The entire POINT of the Charge upgrade is to get a guaranteed hit.
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On March 23 2011 21:18 freetgy wrote:
your talking like it is any different from today, Zealots always get A-Moved like Zerglings are to (flanking might be a thing but there is no Zealot Micro potential; except in PvP)
Yeah, but at least you are taking a risk when a-moving them when they have charge. You risk of wasting the charge.
With the change some were expecting the risk is completely eliminated.
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so what is the change then?
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So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"?
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On March 23 2011 21:20 zarepath wrote:
Um, when your Marauder a-moves, that is also a "GUARANTEED HIT." Because it's ranged. So quit tossing that phrase around as if it's an obviously imbalanced concept, when every single freaking unit in the Terran arsenal does "GUARANTEED HITS". The entire POINT of the Charge upgrade is to get a guaranteed hit.
Whatever the point is with charge, is a completely different discussion actually.
I'm just saying that if that is what blizz ends up doing with charge I expect more threads about that change rather than seeing "why is blizz removing the losses from my bnet profile".
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On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"?
how is that an argument, obviously fungal would cancel charge...
charge lots should be immune or less affected by Shells, right now charge makes no difference in a kiting M&M&M ball.
so what was the point to getting charge to begin with?
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On March 23 2011 21:21 ondik wrote:
so what is the change then?
You won't see the zealot making a stab into thin air anymore.
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Ever seen a Zealot charge face first into the back of a unit running and still not land a hit despite being in melee range? THOSE are the kinds of moments I'd assumed this would apply to. In melee range but because the animation takes time, you don't hit.
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Just give us zealot speed and remove concussive shell. Jesus, it's so simple :/
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On March 23 2011 21:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? how is that an argument, obviously fungal would cancel charge...
So what is different about a charging zealot not being in range of because of fungal, and a charging zealot not being in a range because of concussive?
What I am saying is if you want to arbitrarily give zealots hits even when never being in range (i.e., as in the case of stimmed marauders) thats going to produce some really stupid situations where zealots can hit units they never reach in other situations (i.e., when fungaled, when the target is surrounded by other units).
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On March 23 2011 21:27 ParasitJonte wrote:
Just give us zealot speed and remove concussive shell. Jesus, it's so simple :/
Zealot speed; yes please.
Remove conc shell; oh dear god no thank you.
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Won't complain about the chargelots but I would throw them out in a heartbeat to get bw speed zealots back. In my opinion they were a lot more scary than these current zealots.
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On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"?
This is definitely a strawman argument, absolutely nobody here thinks charge should nullify fungal. Nor mothership recalls, or whatever other ridiculous scenario you can think of. This is specifically about marauders with concussive shell, stop trying to add other things in.
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On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs?
Well...yes...kinda. It indeed does mean that mech-play is nowhere near as efficient as bio play and usually not hard to deal with, if you and your opponent are of the same skill.
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On March 23 2011 21:31 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:27 ParasitJonte wrote:
Just give us zealot speed and remove concussive shell. Jesus, it's so simple :/ Zealot speed; yes please. Remove conc shell; oh dear god no thank you.
you guys realize that charge increases zealot speed by 0.5? and while its questionable if charge is better then a further speed increase it definitly makes zealots way easier to use.
@ topic
zealots hit 100% if its possible for them. the 1 marauder per zealot with good micro is just a special situation and makes sense given conc shells.
but you wont outrun the zealots anymore and see them swinging into air.
so be happy about the buff but dont expect them to magically hit evrytime and ignore slow.
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On March 23 2011 20:42 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
Suppose for a day, that we let stalkers shoot slow shells and then we let mauraders force field, who do you think would be more upset?
I just don't even... wow...
Are you trolling, or do you honestly not understand the problems with such an absurd comparison?
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On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"?
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Straw Man
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On March 23 2011 20:43 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:29 Toadvine wrote:
Jokes aside, you'll find that if you get large enough bio ball, you'll kill all the Zealots anyway, because all of your units are ranged and can attack at the same time. Bonus points if you engage in a confined space, then it'll be total curbstomp. The problem occurs when you trade armies and the Protoss reinforces with only zealots. Small armies of bioball against chargelots can get pretty difficult especially when you have few/no medivacs.
I guess, but defending vs just Zealots, or mostly Zealots with some Stalker support isn't that difficult with some decent simcity. You see Terrans drop and evade Chargelot warpins by running behind the mineral line all the time. You're not going to be as supremely cost-effective as you are in a big engagement, but eh, it's definitely not something insurmountable.
To be completely honest, this thread just makes me sad overall, as someone who remembers the fearsome badasses that the BW Zealots were. Most of the Terran players posting here honestly seem to think Zealots should never get to attack their army after they get CS. Seriously, think about it, a core unit of one race should just be delegated to a meatshield because the other races got a 50/50 60 second upgrade. This is made even more funny by the fact that of all the gateway units, Zealots are the only one with decent dps for their cost.
But eh, imo the whole concept of CS is stupid, and I would much prefer Terrans having stronger (or cheaper) Tanks instead to combat Zealots, or maybe Hellions with less damage but higher attack speed. Dustin Browder thinks Terrans shouldn't need to build Tanks in every matchup though, so I guess that won't happen.
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On March 23 2011 21:52 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? This is definitely a strawman argument, absolutely nobody here thinks charge should nullify fungal. Nor mothership recalls, or whatever other ridiculous scenario you can think of. This is specifically about marauders with concussive shell, stop trying to add other things in.
On March 23 2011 22:12 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Straw Man
It's not a strawman when both concussive and fungal are working through the same mechanism. In the case of concussive kiting, the zealot never gets in range of the unit. Same with fungal. Fungal doesn't stop attacks or spells, only movement. Concussive slows movement. Units blocking impede movement.
I'm NOT saying anything about whether or not the zealot should be able to catch a marauder.
I AM saying that the idea using charge should guarantee a hit EVEN IF THE ZEALOT NEVER GETS IN NORMAL ATTACKING RANGE is stupid.
What this patch changes is that if the zealot charges and gets in range it WILL attack.
What people are complaining about is that a zealot charging does not always attack because it DOES NOT ALWAYS GET IN RANGE. They said there should be a guaranteed hit. Which makes about as much sense as a fungaled zealot attacking, neither a kited or fungalled zealot will be in attacking range, but people want charge to hit through concussive anyway.
Do you see my point?
edit: made last sentence of second last paragraph clearer.
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Edit lol sorry thought i was in the live report thread after watching 5 hours of gsl....
my fault... delete post
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No Protoss players, who are good, will actually claim that charge is bad versus Terran.
=================================================================
It actually annoys me when I hear people complain about "kiting" Zealots, or Zealots with the Charge buff. There are just a few things I'd like to point out to help round the discussion.
(1) Terran does not really have any answer to mass Zealots with the charge buff when the Protoss player has support; Colossus, HT, Stalker, VR, etc ...
(2) Marauders kiting Zealots is not ideal for the Terran, but more of a macgyver'd way to not get 100% slaughtered by Zealots. It takes the Marauder five shots to deplete the Zealots shields, then another 11.1 shots to kill the Zealot assuming natural attack and armor for both.
That's approximately 16.1 shots from a Marauder to kill a Zealot. That's exactly 24.15 game seconds it takes to kill that Zealot in a one on one fight with the Marauder doing perfect kite micro and maintaining maximum DPS (which is not likely).
(3) If the Marauder stims, he can kill a Zealot in 12.075 seconds. In either stim, or non-stimmed, that is A LOT of ground moving backwards required to kill a non-gas unit.
(4) Kiting with Marine/Marauder + Stim is one of the only things we can really do to manipulate the enemy army, and that is still indirect. I'm saying "manipulate" specifically, because Terrans have developed kiting techniques to compensate for the lack of actual manipulated abilities like Force Field, Grivaton Beam, Vortex, or Fungal Growth, all of which have a direct manipulation affect on the opponent.
(5) Can you really be upset with a technique that essentially relies on focused micro? I reiterate, killing Zealots with Marauders is not ideal, or efficient for the Terran player. It is done more out of necessity than anything.
(6) The Charge buff also does these two things quite well: (a) immediately stalls the opponent's forward movement and holds them at a specific range. This holding at a range allows for your ranged units to go to work, essentially without recourse: Stalkers, HTs, Colossus, VRs, etc ... (b) Forces a retreat.
(7) Charge is useful against many Terran unit comps, not just Marauders.
Closing thoughts
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I would not be upset with the buff to Charge AT ALL. It is essentially a bug-fix and is now working as it was intended to work in the first place. If your Terran opponent is massing Marauders, building Zealots is still the most competent selection after pressing "W".
200/200 is a steal for this upgrade. It's auto-activated, on cooldown, buffs your mineral dump unit, and can be chronoboosted out if needed. This patch buffed charge in a pretty big way.
It is often said by the TL community that Terran is the a+move race, but then all of the control techniques that we use are brazenly attacked/diminished/overlooked. Clearly Terran is not the a+move race. That is a ridiculous claim. I will clarify that most higher level players realize that Terran is actually an extremely micro intensive and delicate race to perform well with.
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So my understanding is that charge would get improved so that everytime a Zealot charged, he would charge right to the target and do at least one hit as the patch notes said. Not only are the Blizzard patch notes decieving, but this is bad for the balance of the game. Losing amulet is a huge loss for Protoss when battling Terran bio units. A huge loss.
If you watch the GSL victories of sanZenith over sCfOu, he simply would have lost, despite having a tech advantage, in nearly every engagement if he didn't have amulet. It really is that simple, he had to warp in storms to keep up. Unless you have Colossus, if you don't get amulet you are fighting a huge uphill battle against Terran bio.
So a buff to charge was supposed to be the equalizer here. Zealots aren't ideal for battling masses of range units clumped up, no matter what kind of units they are (melee unit in general are bad at this naturally for reason I won't go into here), and when Terran can mass cheap high DPS units into a ball, you need something to stop them. But with Zealots being slow, and with Terran having an ability to further slow units, the idea of them getting off one hit (8 base damage) didn't seem overpowered, especially when Protoss just lost the ability to quickly create HT's with storm ready to deal with Terran bio reinforcements.
So as someone else said, Protoss has lost the entire Templar tech tree against bio Terran. If you really think it is still viable, watch sanZenith over sCfOu. Very close games, where basic Terran units supported by casters (medivacs and ghosts) battle basic Protoss units supported by casters (sentries and HT's). These were very much even games that came down to the micro of HT's and ghosts, and with the current patch sCfOu would have pummeled sanZenith (obviously he would have had to use Colossus). And with the increase in bunker construction and stimpack research length, this leads us in one direction, more 4 gating vs Terran.
So how did this patch make PvT more balanced or better?
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On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
Yeah but the whole point of charge is that nothing can outrun it. A charging zealot is supposed to be the fastest unit in the game. Stutter-step or not, a ranged unit shouldnt be able to just side-step a charge. I think that's why blizzard addressed the issue to begin with.
My question is whether or not a concussion marauder shell should stop a charge dead in it's tracks or not. IMO, blizzard should have fixed charge by ensuring concussive shells are unable to stop an already charging zealot.
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i think instead of being in the balance changes, this should have been put in the bug fixes as "zealots now get off at least one hit after their charge animation reaches the target enemy unit"
then people would not have been expecting as much from this change is they did
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You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
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On March 24 2011 00:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
Yes. With the removal of amulet, chargelots actually need to do some damage against Terran bio to make it a viable tech tree. If Templar tech is going to be viable, we'll need to get far ahead in economy and have HT's sitting around collecting energy. But the game doesn't work like that. So now all we have is Colossus.
Watch this: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
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I think the amount of improvement charge got is just about perfect. Having charging zealots get auto hits off on marauders in the complete open would tear terran infantry apart. It takes something ridiculous like 12 shots for a marauder to kill a zealot remember. Chargelots are meant to be used in conjunction with good forcefield usage (after all they cost no gas, so sentries are easy to get) and good positioning. You can't expect to be able to just A-move and win in wide open spaces.
After all, to rephrase an earlier poster in a less rude fashion, zealots DO only cost 100 minerals and have crazy health and dps. This means you'll have to support them with other units and effectively choose your engagements to make them maximize their cost-effectiveness.
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On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
No Protoss players, who are good, will actually claim that charge is bad versus Terran.
It's not bad, but it's not especially good either for the cost and research time. Consider this: Even heavy gateway styles like Tyler's 2 Gate Robo expo into double Forge +2 timing get Blink first, and often don't even have Charge for their attack. I recall one game where a player tried to rush for Charge off 2 bases vs Terran in the current GSTL, and it pretty much failed miserably.
The suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is bad is appreciated though.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(1) Terran does not really have any answer to mass Zealots with the charge buff when the Protoss player has support; Colossus, HT, Stalker, VR, etc ...
First off, you really mean Colossus and HT support. Zealot/Stalker and Zealot/VR lose to a typical mixed bio ball pretty decisively in medium to large numbers. It becomes a total slaughter with Medivacs on the field. And HTs just got massively nerfed.
And really, are you saying that you have "no answer" to Chargelot/Colossus based armies? What does that even mean? Because oftentimes a TvP midgame will have a Marauder-heavy army with Medivac and Viking support versus a Gateway+Colossus ball. Are you really saying Terran is at some kind of noticable disadvantage in this situation?
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(2) Marauders kiting Zealots is not ideal for the Terran, but more of a macgyver'd way to not get 100% slaughtered by Zealots. It takes the Marauder five shots to deplete the Zealots shields, then another 11.1 shots to kill the Zealot assuming natural attack and armor for both.
Stalkers attacking Marauders while they kite Zealots isn't ideal for the Protoss either, but you work with what you have. I'm not a big fan of the core unit interactions in SC2 overall, but you'd really expect a 200/200 upgrade clearly intended to close the distance to ranged units to do something against kiting opportunities. For example, Blink is an upgrade that serves its purpose really well, which is why it's almost always researched immediately after the TC finishes.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(3) If the Marauder stims, he can kill a Zealot in 12.075 seconds. In either stim, or non-stimmed, that is A LOT of ground moving backwards required to kill a non-gas unit.
You REALLY don't want to start making arguments about "non-gas units" as Terran. Seriously, Terran has the least gas-intensive armies in the game, to the point where they don't even get any geysers on their third for a very long time. I play Protoss, and a 100/25 Marauder is practically "non-gas" from my perspective. I'm pretty certain there's almost no situation in the game where a protoss army costs less gas in any given engagement, and that also includes PvZ.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(4) Kiting with Marine/Marauder + Stim is one of the only things we can really do to manipulate the enemy army, and that is still indirect. I'm saying "manipulate" specifically, because Terrans have developed kiting techniques to compensate for the lack of actual manipulated abilities like Force Field, Grivaton Beam, Vortex, or Fungal Growth, all of which have a direct manipulation affect on the opponent.
Absolutely agreed, and I do think Terrans should have better opportunities to control space and the opposing army movement. I'm a huge proponent of a Seeker Missile buff, as well as reverting Siege Tank cost back to the BW values (150/100 and 3 Supply). But I'll agree to any change that makes Terrans use more casted abilities in general, because I feel that's really something missing from their play at the moment.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(5) Can you really be upset with a technique that essentially relies on focused micro? I reiterate, killing Zealots with Marauders is not ideal, or efficient for the Terran player. It is done more out of necessity than anything.
I'm not that upset with it, although I don't think it's very difficult to execute.
However, you should count the amount of anti-FF threads that have popped up after the GSL finals, which were essentially arguing against how MC uses FF (since we haven't seen any other player replicate that to date). That's actually quite hard to do, and we had 20+ page threads complaining about it.
[B]On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
200/200 is a steal for this upgrade. It's auto-activated, on cooldown, buffs your mineral dump unit, and can be chronoboosted out if needed. This patch buffed charge in a pretty big way.
Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything.
Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all.
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From playing around in the unit tester, the way the change works is as follows: If the zealot gets close enough to the target so that the target is in melee range, the zealot will always hit it. As many of the people in this thread have mentioned, It was not designed to stop kiting; the patch was designed so that units could no longer avoid the damage from a zealot that entered this melee range by moving out again, like stimmed marines often did to me. Concussive shell stops the zealots reaching this melee range in the first place, so there should be no expectation of any change there.
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I love charge and still love it, even if it didn't get any boosts. However, I agree that it shouldn't be an automatic hit, that would be like turning a zealot into a projectile (how about a ground carrier that shoots zealots instead of interceptors, mmmm.... yummy
Yeah but the whole point of charge is that nothing can outrun it. A charging zealot is supposed to be the fastest unit in the game. Stutter-step or not, a ranged unit shouldnt be able to just side-step a charge. I think that's why blizzard addressed the issue to begin with.
The only way a unit outruns a charge is by running directly away, and by already having a lead (i.e. is already at range) the situation is much like a gazelle and a cheetah. It seems like "sidestepping" is a misnomer, and "in full retreat" might be more apt.
All of this comes from a mostly Protoss player who loves the charge upgrade and fully intends on still using it.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Toadvine wrote:
Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything.
Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all.
Personally I've always felt that was because having blink stalkers makes defending Coli from sniping so much easier and paves the way to a nice robo-council-archives transition. Just throwing that out there :p
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What I thought would happen is: chargelot charges toward a fleeing target, reaches it, gets in attack range and if the attack animation gets off, the attack connects. This is different to prepatch when this wouldn't necessarily mean it attacks even if it reaches the fleeing target. Is that what's happening now? Some posts make it seem like the chargelot is reaching its target with charge and still doesn't attack.
Just need some clarification because it seems like some people thought that charge would keep working until the chargelot reaches the fleeing target, even if it moves beyond the charge distance.
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On March 24 2011 00:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
Remember that charge has a cooldown. You can kite your heart out while zs wait. All we ask is that we don't drop 1000 mins on ten zealotss only to have none of them do any damage beacuse of conc shells.
Either fix charge, or nerf c-shells, especially since amulet is gone. Personally, 50/50 is too cheap for such a powerful upgrade when you think about it, so I'd at least fix the price of c-shells if charge can't do anything against it. Why spend 200/200 on an upgrade that can be defeated by a 50/50 upgrade from a T1 building?
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On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
This would make sense, if it applied to all units equally. Take blink; I am still perplexed at how far roach spit can actually fly! I blink away and that stuff keeps following!
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Wow this is sad to see.
Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet?
Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game!
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The patch note says that it should at least hit fleeing units once, so yeah, its a fail on them not keeping up with their words. They should have made it so that when zealots under charge get their first hit ( 2 swings i.e 16 dmg) or when the duration of charge ends, whichever one comes first, the charge buff finishes. That's the impression that i got when the patch note said that zealots "will at least get a hit off fleeing units". That way, at least your charge upgrade wouldn't be for nothing.
They really should be abled to get a hit off at least once.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
No Protoss players, who are good, will actually claim that charge is bad versus Terran.
It's not bad, but it's not especially good either for the cost and research time. Consider this: Even heavy gateway styles like Tyler's 2 Gate Robo expo into double Forge +2 timing get Blink first, and often don't even have Charge for their attack. I recall one game where a player tried to rush for Charge off 2 bases vs Terran in the current GSTL, and it pretty much failed miserably. The suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is bad is appreciated though. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(1) Terran does not really have any answer to mass Zealots with the charge buff when the Protoss player has support; Colossus, HT, Stalker, VR, etc ... First off, you really mean Colossus and HT support. Zealot/Stalker and Zealot/VR lose to a typical mixed bio ball pretty decisively in medium to large numbers. It becomes a total slaughter with Medivacs on the field. And HTs just got massively nerfed. And really, are you saying that you have "no answer" to Chargelot/Colossus based armies? What does that even mean? Because oftentimes a TvP midgame will have a Marauder-heavy army with Medivac and Viking support versus a Gateway+Colossus ball. Are you really saying Terran is at some kind of noticable disadvantage in this situation? Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(2) Marauders kiting Zealots is not ideal for the Terran, but more of a macgyver'd way to not get 100% slaughtered by Zealots. It takes the Marauder five shots to deplete the Zealots shields, then another 11.1 shots to kill the Zealot assuming natural attack and armor for both. Stalkers attacking Marauders while they kite Zealots isn't ideal for the Protoss either, but you work with what you have. I'm not a big fan of the core unit interactions in SC2 overall, but you'd really expect a 200/200 upgrade clearly intended to close the distance to ranged units to do something against kiting opportunities. For example, Blink is an upgrade that serves its purpose really well, which is why it's almost always researched immediately after the TC finishes. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(3) If the Marauder stims, he can kill a Zealot in 12.075 seconds. In either stim, or non-stimmed, that is A LOT of ground moving backwards required to kill a non-gas unit. You REALLY don't want to start making arguments about "non-gas units" as Terran. Seriously, Terran has the least gas-intensive armies in the game, to the point where they don't even get any geysers on their third for a very long time. I play Protoss, and a 100/25 Marauder is practically "non-gas" from my perspective. I'm pretty certain there's almost no situation in the game where a protoss army costs less gas in any given engagement, and that also includes PvZ. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(4) Kiting with Marine/Marauder + Stim is one of the only things we can really do to manipulate the enemy army, and that is still indirect. I'm saying "manipulate" specifically, because Terrans have developed kiting techniques to compensate for the lack of actual manipulated abilities like Force Field, Grivaton Beam, Vortex, or Fungal Growth, all of which have a direct manipulation affect on the opponent. Absolutely agreed, and I do think Terrans should have better opportunities to control space and the opposing army movement. I'm a huge proponent of a Seeker Missile buff, as well as reverting Siege Tank cost back to the BW values (150/100 and 3 Supply). But I'll agree to any change that makes Terrans use more casted abilities in general, because I feel that's really something missing from their play at the moment. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(5) Can you really be upset with a technique that essentially relies on focused micro? I reiterate, killing Zealots with Marauders is not ideal, or efficient for the Terran player. It is done more out of necessity than anything. I'm not that upset with it, although I don't think it's very difficult to execute. However, you should count the amount of anti-FF threads that have popped up after the GSL finals, which were essentially arguing against how MC uses FF (since we haven't seen any other player replicate that to date). That's actually quite hard to do, and we had 20+ page threads complaining about it. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
200/200 is a steal for this upgrade. It's auto-activated, on cooldown, buffs your mineral dump unit, and can be chronoboosted out if needed. This patch buffed charge in a pretty big way.
Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything. Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all.
Great response!
Clarification ...
[b]RE: Blink first - I'm pretty sure players do this because Blink researches faster (110 compared to 140) and is less expensive (150/150 vs 200/200).
RE: No real answer to Zealots - Essentially what I mean is this: Protoss and Zerg seem to have amazing answers for mass mineral dump units that can be used in an incredibly cost efficient way. Examples:
[spoiler]1. PvT - Marines are mitigated by Colossus, and Storm quite well. The natural armor +1 on every unit, plus the instant +2 armor buff from Guardian shield essentially halves the Marine's DPS from the start of the game.
2. PvZ - Zerglings are easily neutralized in various stages of the game by Zealots, Forcefields, and eventually Colossus and HTs.
3. ZvT - Banelings. You can literally trade supply down with the Terran in ratios of like 1 supply for 10, sometimes more. Fungal growth. Fungal growth annihilates marines in such a bad way. Even with medivac support, fungal growth is TERRIFYING for Marines.
4. ZvP - Again, Banelings. Banelings are amazing against Zealots, and even Stalkers and Sentries to some degree if you can slip by the FF's.[/spoiler]
Terran vs. Mass Zealots
[spoiler]What I'm saying is that Terran lacks truly effective AoE weapons to deal with mass Zealot. Our primary AoE weapon is the Siege Tank and you CANNOT use that against Zealots. It has been argued that Blue Flame helions are the way to go, which I somewhat agree with. It seems like these other weapons are 'specifically designed to kill marines' but we don't have anything specifically designed to kill Zealots. A quick round of 4 Zealots WP'd into the back of one of our bases and all of the sudden we have 600 EHP to deal with, lol. [/spoiler]
RE: Casted abilities for Terran - While I agree that HSM needs some attention, I'm not sure we need more 'casted abilities,' as you suggested. The standard Terran army takes a seemingly ridiculous amount of micro to be effective;
Explanatory List
[spoiler](1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle.
(2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro.
(3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes.
(4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command.
(5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units.
(6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space.
(7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks.
I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long.
[/spoiler]
With the above list I'm not trying to cry saying, "oh man we have to do too much," I'm simply saying there is already A LOT of micro that is not just positional, but requires specific selection groups and activated abilities, many of which have to be placed or targeted. I cannot even tell you how many times I've lost huge battles because the insane amount of micro required to fight on par with the opponent's army.
Adding more casted or activated abilities is not really desirable for me at this point.
RE: Gas Intensive - I agree that marines and maruaders do not cost a lot of gas compared to Zealots and Stalkers (+25 gas compared to marauder), or ling/bling/muta, but that only considers someone massing marauders. But when you get into the more intense Terran armies, Medivacs (100g), Vikings (75g), Ghosts (150g), Tanks (125g), Thors (200g), Ravens (200g), Banshees (100g) ... I'd hardly say these things are "light" in the gas department.
Nice response though. Thank you!
EDIT: Spoiler tags are broken, I cannot figure out why -_-
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On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote:
Wow this is sad to see.
Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet?
Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game!
Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the charge change. And now we find out it doesnt even work?
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I think a lot of people are just upset about losing amulet (I'm one)... I will say my assumption after reading the patch notes was actually that Zealots would be guaranteed a hit on a unit that was in range when charge was first cast. I'm not sure what the range on charge is actually, but it would seem important if this was the actual change...
It would be nice if there was a reason NOT to autocast charge, although I'm not sure how the skill would be modified.
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On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote:
Wow this is sad to see.
Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet?
Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game!
This, this is going to suck hard.
What other options does P have now? Since release PvT has been about "teching" to stop goddamn 1.5 tier units and it boiled down to storm or collsus.
Welp, now that storm would seem relatively useless compared to two forge robo play, expect COLOSUS COLOSUS COLOSUS every game....and then they get alpha'd by reactor vikings.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone
This.
You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended.
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On March 24 2011 01:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone This. You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended.
So when a stalker fires a missile shot and the other unit moves out of range, the missile stops in midair?
It's not infinite range. Because the marauder can't travel infinitely far away in the time it takes for the zealot to charge. You could argue that zealot charge is instantaneous, but it's clearly not, because the zealot itself is the missile and it has to travel over ground to reach the target. So when a missile attack is initiated because the enemy unit is in range, it's expected for the missile to land.
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So I wonder if making Concussive Shells cost 100/100 will fix the whole "zealot charge vs marauder conc" issue?
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On March 23 2011 20:12 GhostFoxer wrote:
Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price.
In most late game scenarios you've stopped spending your gas on sentries and are using it on colossus or other tech.
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On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote:
Wow this is sad to see.
Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet?
Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game!
No it wasn't. Multiplayer isn't faceroll like it would've been if KA+FG happened.
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I guess most people just misinterpreted it, myself included, haha. The change still is nice though.
On a slightly related note, Charge kinda sucks imo not because it gets nullified to an extent by concussive kiting, but because we have almost no control over it at all. If we could actually activate it ourselves, it could be used for both engagement AND retreat and would require decisions on how to use it on our part as players. Not sure how they could go about balancing that though. Maybe shorter duration / longer cd? Either way, I doubt they'd do it simply because it'll be like a speed only stim for zealots, which is not unique enough.
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On March 24 2011 03:44 ribeye wrote:
I guess most people just misinterpreted it, myself included, haha. The change still is nice though.
On a slightly related note, Charge kinda sucks imo not because it gets nullified to an extent by concussive kiting, but because we have almost no control over it at all. If we could actually activate it ourselves, it could be used for both engagement AND retreat and would require decisions on how to use it on our part as players. Not sure how they could go about balancing that though. Maybe shorter duration / longer cd? Either way, I doubt they'd do it simply because it'll be like a speed only stim for zealots, which is not unique enough.
You can activate it yourself. Right click on the charge icon and it will stop auto-casting. Then select Zealots and hit charge (might require a target).
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On March 23 2011 17:52 f10esqftw wrote:
I think the patch was supposed to stop cases where the zealots would charge up to a unit and then the unit was running away so they wouldn't be able to take their swipe. In the case of marauders, the zealots never actually GET to them, so it wouldn't apply... I haven't tested it out, yet, though.
Yeah this. I hope this works now. Before you could have 15 zealots chasing two marauders who stimmed to run away... and did NOT attack the zealots. The zealots would chase them and perhaps one of the 15 would get a hit after a ton of failed charges.
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Ouch, i have not noticed this as i have spent the past day or so refining some new PvZ builds that factor in the infestor change. I have gotten to the point where i am used to those mongoloids failing constantly already though 
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It's working as intended.
Why is this even a thread?
Charge immunity to marauder slow IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC.
Zealots getting the last attack after charging at a unit currently SLOWER THAN IT and landing one hit is the CHANGE TO CHARGE.
Previously zealots would charge and then NOT ATTACK after the charge against units that were only slightly slower than the zealot.
What the hell was everyone else expecting? The thread title is misleading, replies are misleading. Come on guys, don't spread misinformation.
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For how much discussion there was about the patch notes and what would do what, I'm sad to see how many people actually didn't even try out the PTR. That said, why are some people surprised that concussive shells still does what it was meant to do? Were they expecting concussive to become completely worthless once charge enters the scene? :S
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On March 24 2011 04:00 Schamus wrote:
You can activate it yourself. Right click on the charge icon and it will stop auto-casting. Then select Zealots and hit charge (might require a target).
Yeah, you can but it does require a target. In its current form though, its nearly impossible to use manually in a realistic scenario given its range upon activation and that they just stop charging when they 'catch' their target. In my opinion, there's no reason to take it off auto cast atm, which sucks :[.
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On March 23 2011 18:02 Genome852 wrote:
2. Charge is amazing because it forces the Terran to maneuver his army. Stutter stepping reduces DPS even when done near perfectly. Charge is a form of damage mitigation.
It might force Terran to move their army and therefore reduce DPS, but your own army will have to follow to be able to hit them, thereby negating this effect.
Meanwhile, a significant part of your army is just acting as a meatshield instead of doing damage.
It is entirely possible that the lower damage cooldown on units like Stalkers alleviated this effect to some extent (more efficient move-shoot), but not 100%.
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So, what's the point of this "charge" change? I'm confused.
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The incorrectness in the topic title is going to lead to a lot of misconceptions. Nothing's broken, they fixed a dumb bug the end
whether charge should negate slow effects is a different discussion and was not supposed to be addressed by this patch
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On March 24 2011 00:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously? Yes. With the removal of amulet, chargelots actually need to do some damage against Terran bio to make it a viable tech tree. If Templar tech is going to be viable, we'll need to get far ahead in economy and have HT's sitting around collecting energy. But the game doesn't work like that. So now all we have is Colossus. Watch this: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
I'm not sure why you would think that a game could be considered balanced if one upgrade just simply ignores the other, massive already ignores CS but I don't see why I speed upgrade should negate a anti-speed upgrade, that just seems like raging to me.
Now what I actually want to know is, does the application of one effect over right any existing effects?
If a marauder hits a zealot with CS and then the zealot charges the the charge get off? I'm pretty sure if zealot charges and it gets hit with a concussive shell the charge is slowed but it would seem completely fair if the effects over wrote each other.
OR, if I'm not mistaken CS slows a unit by 50%? and charge increases the zealots movement speed by 100%? so doing some maths, a zealot who is charging and hit by a concussive shell should move at the speed of a normal zealot who is not charging right? Is this currently how it works? I don't actually know but that seems like it would make the most sense to me, that the effect is applied on the units current speed not their base speed.
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On March 23 2011 20:12 GhostFoxer wrote:
Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price.
I dont quite see how this relates to the change. If they're FFded from retreating, they aren't fleeing. You seem to have just summarized how charge works with FF in general, which I believe people already knew, unless I read your post wrong.
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In general, I think its fair/working as intended-- the patch notes never said anything about being immune to marauder slow, they just said they'd hit fleeing targets at least once. Of course they can't hit marauders if they can't GET to marauders. That's just common sense.
As it was before, if the fleeing units' move speed was greater than the zealot move speed after charge expires, they would never hit, now they will.
Essentially the coding prior to the change didn't include an attack with charge, charge would expire with the zealot standing next to the unit, and then the zealot would auto-attack the unit if its in range-- since the target's move speed is greater than the zealots move speed, it would not attack and would proceed to try to chase it down and never get a hit in. After the change, an attack 'comes with' charge, or the move cycle happens after an attack, so they get one in.
Hopefully that's clear.
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I'd be interested in seeing how different TvP would be if Chargelots were immune to Concussive Shell.
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I interpreted that zealots, if they catched up with an enemy would always hit. Not that they would always catch up with a fleing unit. Why should they be able to hit something they can't catch up with? Sounds kind of stupid imo.
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On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:49 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D ^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying
Zealots base speed is increased when charge is available so you do get a speed buff. In small engagements you can micro for a surround with charge
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On March 24 2011 04:41 ptrpb wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing how different TvP would be if Chargelots were immune to Concussive Shell.
Ye, it would make the matchup even more protoss favoured
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To be fair, let's compare with Protoss:
Explanatory List
(1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle.
>>Protoss don't have anything like a siege tank, I'll give you that. They do have immortals, which require positioning very carefully to absorb siege tank fire before other units. But have to avoid marines. Protoss and Zerg have to try to arrange units to avoid siege fire splash if possible... very hard to do.
(2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro.
>>Protoss need sentries on a different hotkey than other units ideally for perfect FF placement. Stalkers should be on another hotkey for blinking or focus fire air unit killing.
>> Protoss have to keep zealots in front of sentries and stalkers. No easy task since stalkers are so fast.
(3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes.
>> Protoss, same problem for HT and Sentry and stalkers blink.
(4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command.
>>Some of the same problems for phoenix, observer.
(5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units.
>>Same problem for phoenix, voidray, and warp prism holding high templar... dropping off HT and possibly changing to warp mode. Not popular yet, but will be one day... hard to do in a battle though.
(6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space.
>>I don't think medivacs have this problem anmore. They are slower now and generally never fly in stupidly... but I guess you have a point, it happens sometimes.
(7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks.
>>I want to compare them to colossus. In a perfect world, you would get your colossus firing at bigger groups of units. Hard to do in a big fight. Minimal Colossus micro means moving out of air unit range.
I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long.
>>Warping units in during a fight kills micro for Protoss. I guess you could add feedbacks, individually blinking stalkers to avoid damage, making sure guardian shield covers all units, turning off charge during certain battles, retreating HT, splitting HT, splitting Sentries, etc.
You have a good list, but I think Protoss have just as much to worry about.
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Its how I expected the change to work to be fair, having your zealots charge endlessly till they get a one hit could be as much a disadvantage because chargelots could be kited away from the main army and isolated.
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Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy!
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If they get close enough to swing, they'll swing, and they'll always hit.
That's it. Before you sometimes wouldn't swing, or you'd swing but do no damage cuz they moved. Now you always hit if you swing.
Whoo?
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A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
I think it is a bug in implementation.
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The patch didn't address anything regarding Zealot Charge VS Concussive Shells. That is working as Blizzard intended.
What the patch did fix was that Zealots would Charge after fleeing units like Hellions/Roaches/Stalkers but not get a single hit on target. Now whenever a Zealot goes into charge mode if he doesn't get hit by a Concussive Shell it will guarantee a hit!!!
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On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy!
It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say.
Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix.
I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is.
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On March 24 2011 04:57 RemrafGrez wrote:
To be fair, let's compare with Protoss:
Explanatory List
(1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle.
>>Protoss don't have anything like a siege tank, I'll give you that. They do have immortals, which require positioning very carefully to absorb siege tank fire before other units. But have to avoid marines. Protoss and Zerg have to try to arrange units to avoid siege fire splash if possible... very hard to do.
(2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro.
>>Protoss need sentries on a different hotkey than other units ideally for perfect FF placement. Stalkers should be on another hotkey for blinking or focus fire air unit killing.
>> Protoss have to keep zealots in front of sentries and stalkers. No easy task since stalkers are so fast.
(3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes.
>> Protoss, same problem for HT and Sentry and stalkers blink.
(4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command.
>>Some of the same problems for phoenix, observer.
(5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units.
>>Same problem for phoenix, voidray, and warp prism holding high templar... dropping off HT and possibly changing to warp mode. Not popular yet, but will be one day... hard to do in a battle though.
(6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space.
>>I don't think medivacs have this problem anmore. They are slower now and generally never fly in stupidly... but I guess you have a point, it happens sometimes.
(7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks.
>>I want to compare them to colossus. In a perfect world, you would get your colossus firing at bigger groups of units. Hard to do in a big fight. Minimal Colossus micro means moving out of air unit range.
I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long.
>>Warping units in during a fight kills micro for Protoss. I guess you could add feedbacks, individually blinking stalkers to avoid damage, making sure guardian shield covers all units, turning off charge during certain battles, retreating HT, splitting HT, splitting Sentries, etc.
You have a good list, but I think Protoss have just as much to worry about.
Well, to clarify, I was not trying to imply that the other races don't have "just as much to worry about," I was simply saying that the Terran army has a lot of very specific things like activated abilities. It could probably be argued that the Terran forces benefit the most from higher levels of micro, and suffer the most from a lack of micro.
Now, in response to your list you mentioned a lot of similar things in response to multiple line items. And it is only fair to mention everyone has to worry about things like positioning your units in "basically" the correct position: short range in front, long range in back, etc ...
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On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really?
I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made.
When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks?
When did they add concussive shells to marines?
When did they add concussive shells to hellions?
These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF.
Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right?
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Well the movement speed of a zealot with charge is 6, concussive reduces that by 50% to ~3. Meanwhile, a marauder moves at 2.25 and stim increases that 50% to 3.37.
Since 3 < 3.37, a chargelot can never catch a stimmed + concussive marauder (at least not one on one with micro). The chargelot still needs to get in range to hit (and isn't).
But what was happening before was even worse. Take away stim for a second. A chargelot would charge at 6, get reduced to 3, catch up with the target, but the target is moving away at 2.25. The chargelot can't hit targets that are moving - even ones that are moving slower - during the duration of the charge effect!
Before patch: Chargelots cannot hit targets that are moving away at ANY speed
After patch: Chargelots can hit targets that are moving away at slower speeds (so they can catch up) - the only thing that can outrun a chargelot is stimmed, concussive marauders.
BUT, I'd note that's not so bad - while those stimmed units are running away, their stim attack boost is fading and they've taken damage from the stim. You can just pull back and wait for the stim to end.
But yeah, you're right: overall it's not a very significant change in patch 1.3, certainly not as big a deal as removing KA.
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On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy!
To me it seems more like a bug got fixed.
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On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is.
Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT.
The patch notes are right.
Congratulations!
If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit.
It's not a damn bug fix either.
Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before.
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On March 24 2011 04:49 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D ^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying
Zealot charge grants passive movespeed increase too.
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On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is.
But... the patch notes weren't misleading to anyone who took even a moment to think about it.
Charge will hit units that run away. Alright cool. Nothing in there mentioned kiting or concussive shells. Nothing mentioned unlimited range, or max speed, or immunity to stuns or slows or anything like that. Would you be upset if a single Chargelot charged into a group of 40 marines and got evaporated before it reached it's target? What if it's specific target was fleeing, while the other 39 marines opened fire and demolished the Chargelot in mid charge? Would you complain because the patch notes were misleading? I mean... I charged the target... it was fleeing... so...
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As a terran who goes bio and harasses the hell out of protoss, I'd say that charging zealots should be immune to the slow component of marauders or the stun component of fungal while they're charging. But not immune to damage. It'd make zealots more usable in small engagements, and have no effect whatsoever when there are 30 marauders on the field.
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Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT.
Yep, the issue is that the chargelots can't catch up with stimmed, concussive marauders. Charge = 6, concussive reduces that by 50% to 3, and stimmed marauders can kite at 3.37.
But it's a positive change for every other unit that can't outrun chargelots. Only stimmed, concussive marauders can outrun chargelots in this game, and only for the limited duration of stim (and only if there are enough marauders to hit every chargelot with concussive).
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On March 24 2011 05:48 jgelling wrote:Yep, the issue is that the chargelots can't catch up with stimmed, concussive marauders. Charge = 6, concussive reduces that by 50% to 3, and stimmed marauders can kite at 3.37. But it's a positive change for every other unit that can't outrun chargelots. Only stimmed, concussive marauders can outrun chargelots in this game, and only for the limited duration of stim (and only if there are enough marauders to hit every chargelot with concussive).
The marauder issue has nothing to do with the topic title, or topic, except for people deciding it's time to discuss balance. Balance is a completely different issue, I'm more concerned with everyone who has a misconception. Which is a lot of people, including the OP.
Balance, once again, is a different issue.
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Zealots are not supposed to be the super awesome counter to bio. They're still primarily support/tank units. I don't see why Zealots neeed to be able to charge through concussive. One of the biggest reasons to upgrade concussive is to kite zealots. Force field is still supposed to be the major counter to bio until Colossi get out.
The new Zealot charge does help. The terran isn't always going to have marauders with concussive. Heavy marine armies and heavy roach armies are a bit easier to deal with. The charge buff isn't super amazing, but it's nice to have. I'm not going to go out of my way to get charge, but later in the game when I do pick it up, I'll take what I can get.
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On March 23 2011 21:52 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? This is definitely a strawman argument, absolutely nobody here thinks charge should nullify fungal. Nor mothership recalls, or whatever other ridiculous scenario you can think of. This is specifically about marauders with concussive shell, stop trying to add other things in.
It's not completely about concussive shells
he was playing sbrugby, who has been on high stakes poker, unless it is a smurf
I am only reading this to see if that is verified, so I disagree with you.
On topic, I like your using the term strawmanning, though I feel it is wrong here. He references marauders when talking about other abilities that slow zealots. There is a direct correlation. Not only that, but he brought up the entirety of the argument (marauders) in his 4th and 6th lines. I don't believe it is strawmanning.
edit: sad to see noone clarified whether or not this is Brian Townsend... liked seeing him on High Stakes Poker as I'd watched him on FullTilt in high stakes with Farha and Elezra among others (dwan, anyone? )
More on topic: People assessing the slowing abilities (marauder concussive here) are really off basis on what this buff was meant to do. It was meant to make zealots hit marines/marauders/hellions/roaches that were fairly slow ... I've seen unstimmed marines not being hit by a charge; the animation was pretty bad. It was really frustrating to see. I don't believe the change should alter the way concussive shells work, and that is why I have only read this topic to see if the person playing was really sbrugby, and tried to defend someone I didn't feel was intentionally strawmanning.
Am I going to whine about the price of one vs another? Nope. I like concussive shells, and everything works out in the end. BW wasn't patches in a day, and before 1.08, was pretty imbalanced. Storms could kill lurkers in 1 go, for instance! The game is actually very balanced and well developed in comparison to most games that come out.
If you're going mass zealots, I don't believe having to spend 200 gas on the upgrade is going to hurt that much. How much gas do zealots cost?
I noticed someone mentioning the amulet being taken out, and I don't feel this is the right topic/thread for that. I'm sure there are multiple threads complaining about that issue.
The one thing I ask in closing is this, did you really expect this buff to negate the effects of other races abilities? I didn't.
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The issue they were tryin to solve was the once where the mm ball would goat zealots into charging and stim away quickly with damage so they could kite. Toss still needs FFs trap the terran army.
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On March 24 2011 01:05 frodoguy wrote:
The patch note says that it should at least hit fleeing units once, so yeah, its a fail on them not keeping up with their words. They should have made it so that when zealots under charge get their first hit ( 2 swings i.e 16 dmg) or when the duration of charge ends, whichever one comes first, the charge buff finishes. That's the impression that i got when the patch note said that zealots "will at least get a hit off fleeing units". That way, at least your charge upgrade wouldn't be for nothing.
They really should be abled to get a hit off at least once.
Imagine the following patch note.
Protoss
- Colossus damage has been increased; four lasers dealing 50 damage are now fired.
If we were to hold them by our interpretation of whatever their patch notes say, things would quickly snowball out of hand (not to mention everyone's going to interpret differently). What they should learn to do is be as explicit as possible. I certainly don't want them catering to all my hopes and aspirations because I read the note differently than they wrote it.
Also, to be fair, what we could learn to do is use the PTR.
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50/50 upgrade > 200/200 upgrade. Sounds legit.
OT: Then I think the patch notes should be a bit more specific in what encompasses a "fleeing unit".
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Why did they list this change under 'balance'? Seems more suited to 'bug fixes' cause charge wasn't really made better, it just made it so zealots didn't charge then stop and do nothing when it was supposed to get a hit off.
Does seem like a bit of a pointless change if they can still be endlessly kited...probably the most overpriced upgrade I can think of.
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On March 23 2011 18:00 Dommk wrote:
Doing a few tests.
A Charging Zealot will always attack a marauder who is stimming away. A Charging Zealot won't attack a maraduer who is stim kiting with Concussive shells.
As far as I know, the latter couldn't be done pre-patch, so if you ahve a large amount of Zealots, then you should be able to get some hits in instead of none :S Still sucks, but as someone said above, if you could do damage without actually reaching the target then you could get awkward scenarios where you could gib units by charging them.
Don't know why they just cant make it so Zealots are immune to slow whilst charging, at least that way they could always get ONE hit in before being slowed and kited. But I guess getting one hit against a Marauder every 10seconds is too OP (/sarcasm)
I agree. WTF is charge good for, if it costs so much and cant even reduce the effectiveness of a 50/50 upgrade?
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On March 24 2011 05:43 DeckOneBell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is. Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT. The patch notes are right. Congratulations! If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit. It's not a damn bug fix either. Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before.
Can someone please test if zealot swipes a speed zergling while temporarily entering into the charge barrier of a zealot?
For example, swarm of zerglings dances into range of a zealot, zealot charges, but zergilgns run away with superior speed
Maybe even try it on creep to give zerglings an extra boost in speed.
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is that the same sbrugby that plays poker cause he is uber balled if so
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
I for one find it very funny that both Z and T have a cheap ultra massable unit, that can be built from early to late game no problem. And they are super effective. Sure 5 Rauder maybe lose to 5 chargelots, but you can be damn sure that 30 rauders own 30 chargelots. Same for the roaches. In fact, if you watched the game between Tester and Losira, you could see how mass speedroaches (+ burrow) with a dash of speedlings destroy gate units. I will never accept that as perfect balance. that is just so wrong. The one side just masses units (roaches) and the other has to have perfect FFs and awesome gardian shields, and it is still close.
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I watch quite a lot of games every day and I dont recall any significant instances of anyone actually kiting a lot of zealots during a big battle where this was a factor. maybe someone can site an example game where this is apparent please :D
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On March 24 2011 09:02 rSSinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:43 DeckOneBell wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is. Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT. The patch notes are right. Congratulations! If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit. It's not a damn bug fix either. Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before. Can someone please test if zealot swipes a speed zergling while temporarily entering into the charge barrier of a zealot? For example, swarm of zerglings dances into range of a zealot, zealot charges, but zergilgns run away with superior speed Maybe even try it on creep to give zerglings an extra boost in speed.
Zerglings with metabolic boost on creep move at a little over 4.7 speed. Charging zealots move at approximately 6. A Zergling that skirts close enough to activate Charge is guaranteed to be hit barring extreme circumstances (fungal growth or really whack terrain, for example).
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On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
Ohhh man, dont you get that CS is an early game upgrade? What is wrong with the idea, that a toss LATE GAME upgrade (far more costly and difficult to get) for one unit type, can enable that unit type to be immune to CS once every 10 sec, and let them do some damage?
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On March 24 2011 09:07 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims. I for one find it very funny that both Z and T have a cheap ultra massable unit, that can be built from early to late game no problem. And they are super effective. Sure 5 Rauder maybe lose to 5 chargelots, but you can be damn sure that 30 rauders own 30 chargelots. Same for the roaches. In fact, if you watched the game between Tester and Losira, you could see how mass speedroaches (+ burrow) with a dash of speedlings destroy gate units. I will never accept that as perfect balance. that is just so wrong.
The one side just masses units (roaches) and the other has to have FFs and awesome gardian shields, and it is (not even) close.
Did he just say "awesome guardian shields"? Because GS is so hard to use.
fixed.
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On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs?
Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long.
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On March 23 2011 21:08 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone This is still the post that makes the most sense to me (despite the image quality). Are people saying that charging zealots should be immune to slow? That makes some sense. Other than that I have no idea what people want.
I want exactly that!! Gate units are stronger when terra has none of his tech lab upgrades. You place down FFs, and crush him. Then terra gets stim, cs and shields for marines and is waaaaaaay more powerful than the gate army. So, one would expect, that when a toss gets his much more costly upgrades, that he would be able to fight against terra at leas on even ground.
THats why charge should negate cs.
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marrauder slow or not my zealots still dont hit atleast once and that what the upgrade was supposed to do.
also on a side not is it just me or does it feel like blizzards way of balancing the game just seem to be take away all protoss upgrades.i dont know could just be me but iam getting alittle sick of being forced into one tech route every game due to the fact its kinda the only way to stay alive.
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So the change to charge really didn't do much? I'm having a hard time understanding what they did, if the zealots still don't hit once then it's pretty much the same story as before init. I thought that this change was good along with the removal of the ht amulet, but it seems it isn't really working.
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On March 24 2011 09:40 ZeRoMist wrote:
marrauder slow or not my zealots still dont hit atleast once and that what the upgrade was supposed to do.
also on a side not is it just me or does it feel like blizzards way of balancing the game just seem to be take away all protoss upgrades.i dont know could just be me but iam getting alittle sick of being forced into one tech route every game due to the fact its kinda the only way to stay alive.
Sadly Blizzard's choice has forced one specific tech route. But TBH once Protoss have both tech routes out in the late late game, there isnt much hope of winning against them. The most cost effective army in the whole game. Gateway units + HT + collo (at this point voidrays are optional).
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I would like to see some sort of Carrier play. I think its the most underused unit in the whole game.
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On March 24 2011 09:40 ZeRoMist wrote:
marrauder slow or not my zealots still dont hit atleast once and that what the upgrade was supposed to do.
also on a side not is it just me or does it feel like blizzards way of balancing the game just seem to be take away all protoss upgrades.i dont know could just be me but iam getting alittle sick of being forced into one tech route every game due to the fact its kinda the only way to stay alive.
Mind elaborating? Everything I've tested shows that they hit a running target now, with the exception of stimmed slowing marauders. What was the situation you were in? Any extenuating circumstances?
On March 24 2011 09:44 SkCom wrote:
So the change to charge really didn't do much? I'm having a hard time understanding what they did, if the zealots still don't hit once then it's pretty much the same story as before init. I thought that this change was good along with the removal of the ht amulet, but it seems it isn't really working.
With the exception of the poster above you, every person who has tested the change so far said they noticed they'd hit running targets that wouldn't have been hit before. I wouldn't throw the thread out on the first negative proclamation. There are also several differently worded explanations (one even had an image) within the first couple of pages describing the change. I suggest going back there and reading through to get the full picture.
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
No, because 200/200 isn't just to hit marauders.
1) You get a zealot speed upgrade which is always on, not just charge.
2) You get to pretty much get to melee range vs anything in the game for ALL races EXCEPT kiting stimmed marauders.
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I remember the days when people used to go immo/HT/Gateway but they stopped doing it because ghosts were too strong
Still, its a fair nerf to PvT lategame, and a buff to TvP early, which is somewhat in the right direction
I still hate the whole gameflow though, i mean, you look at how awesome BW TvP is and you think they coulda taken a leaf out of that. BW T is super, super strong at 200/200 but you can use something called positioning and mobility to win games... In here its so nonexistant since positioning is WAY less important than your army size and armies are so mobile its just most favourable usually to engage in big balls
Id like to see seige tanks get buffed but do more splash damage to friendly units. That would be pretty interesting
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So, I guess most of the guys here just misunderstood what blizzard stated in the patch notes. Basically, the first attack after the zealot charge will now always hit PROVIDED that the zealot reaches the enemy unit before that charge expires.
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On March 24 2011 02:17 Tracedragon wrote:
So I wonder if making Concussive Shells cost 100/100 will fix the whole "zealot charge vs marauder conc" issue?
Not even close. More like charge gives lots cs immunity.
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They should just make it where zealots can't get slowed while charging or charging removes slow effects. I'm kinda shocked to see this isn't the case because it's such an expensive upgrade.
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On March 24 2011 09:56 BrTarolg wrote:
I still hate the whole gameflow though, i mean, you look at how awesome BW TvP is and you think they coulda taken a leaf out of that. BW T is super, super strong at 200/200 but you can use something called positioning and mobility to win games... In here its so nonexistant since positioning is WAY less important than your army size and armies are so mobile its just most favourable usually to engage in big balls
Id like to see seige tanks get buffed but do more splash damage to friendly units. That would be pretty interesting
SC1 Terran is not SC2 Terran. Protoss and Terran have switched roles in SC2, Terran has the better base units and Protoss has the tech advantage. You need to play it like that.
Giving Terran BW tanks would be the craziest OP thing ever. People like to complain about the Collosus, but personally, the BW Terran deathball was far, far worse then anything Protoss has in SC2.
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On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right?
And CS is used on all units...so whats you point?
CS still >>>> charge
although its 50/50 vs 200/200
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On March 24 2011 10:12 Striding Strider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:56 BrTarolg wrote:
I still hate the whole gameflow though, i mean, you look at how awesome BW TvP is and you think they coulda taken a leaf out of that. BW T is super, super strong at 200/200 but you can use something called positioning and mobility to win games... In here its so nonexistant since positioning is WAY less important than your army size and armies are so mobile its just most favourable usually to engage in big balls
Id like to see seige tanks get buffed but do more splash damage to friendly units. That would be pretty interesting SC1 Terran is not SC2 Terran. Protoss and Terran have switched roles in SC2, Terran has the better base units and Protoss has the tech advantage. You need to play it like that. Giving Terran BW tanks would be the craziest OP thing ever. People like to complain about the Collosus, but personally, the BW Terran deathball was far, far worse then anything Protoss has in SC2.
not even close, positioning mattered and the terran deathball was immobile.
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And tanks couldn't be hit by 9 range flying units. Oranges and apples.
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On March 24 2011 10:16 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? And CS is used on all units...so whats you point? CS still >>>> charge although its 50/50 vs 200/200
Worst logic known to man, and then some.
He is saying that not all units have concussive shells. Thus charge is still useful 100% vs 2 races and like vs 90% of the T units.
The fact that CS hits all unit is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are talking only about charge, and how charge works.
No one says get charge in every match up all the time 100% of the time. If you don't feel like 200/200 is worth the investment, don't do it.
I guess all the top players that take charge were wrong and they will be even more wrong when they take this buffed charge lololol
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On March 24 2011 09:59 Zeiryuu wrote:
So, I guess most of the guys here just misunderstood what blizzard stated in the patch notes. Basically, the first attack after the zealot charge will now always hit PROVIDED that the zealot reaches the enemy unit before that charge expires.
At least someone can explain the change in plain english. How anyone thought that the buff meant anything else is beyond me.
Blizzard's going to have to start releasing 15 megabyte text files to explain, in depth, every little balance change they make so that fools can understand what's going to happen.
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On March 24 2011 09:27 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:07 IVN wrote:On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims. I for one find it very funny that both Z and T have a cheap ultra massable unit, that can be built from early to late game no problem. And they are super effective. Sure 5 Rauder maybe lose to 5 chargelots, but you can be damn sure that 30 rauders own 30 chargelots. Same for the roaches. In fact, if you watched the game between Tester and Losira, you could see how mass speedroaches (+ burrow) with a dash of speedlings destroy gate units. I will never accept that as perfect balance. that is just so wrong.
The one side just masses units (roaches) and the other has to have FFs and awesome gardian shields, and it is (not even) close. Did he just say "awesome guardian shields"? Because GS is so hard to use. fixed.
Most players dont use GS very well. In fact making GS cover all units isnt as easy, as most ppl think. In most battles lots are not covered by GS. So yes, a palyer that manages to cover all hi units with GS, while not wasting mana is doing "awesome guardian shields".
And yes, its rarely close, but for the protoss. In most circumstances - just like Tester vs Losira - speedroaches with burrow just own gate units.
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I was a bit sucpicious to this change working as well. It seemed totally alright to remove amulet along with this change making mass gateway as viable as it was while balancing storm spamming. But with charge hits not working i am actually really disappointed as i was used to going chargelots HTs immortals in pvt which was working as chargelots took the hits and templars witch archons and immortals killed everything but now i might acutally need to make collossi to do damage which makes me a very sad panda
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On March 24 2011 10:19 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 10:16 IVN wrote:On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? And CS is used on all units...so whats you point? CS still >>>> charge although its 50/50 vs 200/200 Worst logic known to man, and then some. He is saying that not all units have concussive shells. Thus charge is still useful 100% vs 2 races and l ike vs 90% of the T units.The fact that CS hits all unit is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are talking only about charge, and how charge works. No one says get charge in every match up all the time 100% of the time. If you don't feel like 200/200 is worth the investment, don't do it. I guess all the top players that take charge were wrong and they will be even more wrong when they take this buffed charge lololol
LOL, it doesnt matter, since at the time in the game a toss user researches charge, terran only has marauders. Well, to be exact, like 40 marauders, 3 or 4 ghosts and 10 vikings.
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You don't really get charge till VERY lategame because 200 gas is a suicide amount to spend on 2 base
I mean, count the number of times its 2base vs 2base PvT and terran just walks straight into P's heavly concaved natural and rapes him because protoss teched too heavily
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I dont get this. This has to be the biggest whine post Ive seen from any race for any issue. Are people seriously complaining that charge needs to be immune to CS and automatically hit any time it goes off? If that were the case, it would be called "Teleport" instead of "Charge".
Im pretty sure the original issue was that if zealots charged up to units that were running away AND reached their targets, they still wouldnt swing because the units would move out of range. If THAT issue is not fixed, then people have a right to complain. If people are actually demanding that blizzard allow zealots to automatically get a hit in despite the fact that theyre still out of range and the units theyre chasing are still moving quicker than them (aka negating kiting altogether), then thats completely ridiculous.
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Here's what I understand from this thread. No one thought charge should always hit before patch, never heard a complaint about CS stopping charge. Everyone misinterprets patch. Charge doesn't ALWAYS hit when implemented. Charge is now the weakest skill ever.
I am Protoss btw. I think Blizzard should have put this in bug fixes to avoid confusion, or worded it better if it wasn't a bug fix. Charge was fine before, charge is fine now. Templars aren't super weak just because Khaydarin is removed, just learn to warp in before hand. Although, I do think KA nerf is dumb, maybe make it +15 energy, that nerf is kinda dumb IMO.
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I'm pretty sure Blizzard is going to fix it. As we all know, Browder and his boys are really doing their best to make SC2 the best gaming experience.
Let's be patient, pretty sure it's gonna be ok in a couple of months.
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On March 24 2011 10:37 BrTarolg wrote:
You don't really get charge till VERY lategame because 200 gas is a suicide amount to spend on 2 base
I mean, count the number of times its 2base vs 2base PvT and terran just walks straight into P's heavly concaved natural and rapes him because protoss teched too heavily
Well amulet was 150/150 so think of the money you saved :p
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On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long.
But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game.
Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
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On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs?
Actually... Yes... Mech is just so hard to transition into without dying and really gives little benefit except for a bit of immunity to splash damage... DPS is actually lowered in most cases!
And I'm a protoss!
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On March 24 2011 11:05 Disciple7 wrote:
Here's what I understand from this thread. No one thought charge should always hit before patch, never heard a complaint about CS stopping charge. Everyone misinterprets patch. Charge doesn't ALWAYS hit when implemented. Charge is now the weakest skill ever.
I am Protoss btw. I think Blizzard should have put this in bug fixes to avoid confusion, or worded it better if it wasn't a bug fix. Charge was fine before, charge is fine now. Templars aren't super weak just because Khaydarin is removed, just learn to warp in before hand. Although, I do think KA nerf is dumb, maybe make it +15 energy, that nerf is kinda dumb IMO.
Charge was already the weakest skill ever.
Mainly people expected a single zealot charging at a running stimmed marauder to always hit it (so long as the marauder doesn't have concussive) because that's how the buff was described.
I personally didn't expect the buff to change much of anything, by the time you have charge your zealots typically melt instantly anyways... it's not useful against good terrans. Mediocre terrans that overmake siege tanks? Sure. But not the bio balls.
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A simple thing that can be done is make "Charge (Buff)" disable the Marauder Slow while charge is active. Once charge wears off, the slow (if the slow is still active) would reenable.
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People seem to have gotten the wrong impression when the patch notes said:
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once
Some people seem to think that Zealots were going to charge indefinitely until they reached their target and hit it. Definitely not.
Now, let me try to explain how Charge worked against fleeing targets, before the patch.
The Zealot would charge towards a fleeing unit, say, a Stalker. The Zealot would come into melee range with the Stalker. But since Zealots couldn't attack while moving, the Stalker would simply keep walking without being attacked while the Zealot would run out of charge (since it had already reached the target) and not get any hits off on the Stalker.
Here is what the Charge buff did:
After getting within melee range of the target, the Zealot will stop moving and hit the target with its full attack (2 hits/8 damage per hit), no matter how far the target has moved since coming within melee range of the Zealot.
The Charge ability now activates a mandatory attack command after coming within melee range of the target.
I sure hope this hasn't been explained already... If it has (I probably should have read the entire thread), then I just feel silly.
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leave it to the martial arts legend to clear up melee attack details. <3 you wongfeihung
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@wongfeihung
that makes sense
and lol nice name
and thanks for explaining
Pretty good buff still I must say
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On March 24 2011 01:52 Enervate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:46 TheYango wrote:On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone This. You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended. So when a stalker fires a missile shot and the other unit moves out of range, the missile stops in midair? It's not infinite range. Because the marauder can't travel infinitely far away in the time it takes for the zealot to charge. You could argue that zealot charge is instantaneous, but it's clearly not, because the zealot itself is the missile and it has to travel over ground to reach the target. So when a missile attack is initiated because the enemy unit is in range, it's expected for the missile to land.
sadly, it is infinite range. If you use recall on stalker, the missile will follow the stalker until it hits the stalker. That's all fine and dandy but we are not talking about a missile here. We are looking at a zealot... that's right AN UNIT. You want an unit to keep charging until it hits? Really? People want infinite range?
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man just bring back zealot leg speed not this goofy charge stuff
zealots are hilariously slow in sc2 :\
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Again, as many, many people in this thread have said again and again: Zealots need speed.
Charge doesn't work. It's by far the weakest upgrade relative to what it's intended to be. It's intended to make Zealots viable midgame and lategame versus ranged units. But it doesn't work at all. What happens when you're up against kiting units? The Zealots charge forward uncontrollably (it's impossible to position them properly and when they charge you have zero control anyways) and any bronze player stims and retreats and starts kiting again. At this point the zealots are just dying. But hey, charge has a nice visual effect!
What you want to do is obviously to be able to get a surround. While they are kiting you, you run past them a little and then engage in order to maximize your damage. Kiting will still be effective but if you have superior numbers of Zealots you'll do alright. All good players have realized this long ago and I don't get why we don't pressure Blizzard more on this. Charge was a bad idea in the first place and it didn't work. Time to switch it to something that does. Start a petition.
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On March 24 2011 10:37 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 10:19 mprs wrote:On March 24 2011 10:16 IVN wrote:On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? And CS is used on all units...so whats you point? CS still >>>> charge although its 50/50 vs 200/200 Worst logic known to man, and then some. He is saying that not all units have concussive shells. Thus charge is still useful 100% vs 2 races and l ike vs 90% of the T units.The fact that CS hits all unit is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are talking only about charge, and how charge works. No one says get charge in every match up all the time 100% of the time. If you don't feel like 200/200 is worth the investment, don't do it. I guess all the top players that take charge were wrong and they will be even more wrong when they take this buffed charge lololol LOL, it doesnt matter, since at the time in the game a toss user researches charge, terran only has marauders. Well, to be exact, like 40 marauders, 3 or 4 ghosts and 10 vikings.
You have got to be kidding me... I give up, you win.
1) God forbid charge doesn't work vs ONE unit?
2) Its still a good upgrade to have vs Zergs and pretty good in late game PvP if it gets there.
3) If you don't like it, don't research it
4) giving unit compositions as a reason for ANYTHING is god awful.
Come on man, if you are going to whine, atleast know what you are talking about
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On March 24 2011 11:13 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long. But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game. Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
This is strongly false. Try using bio-based play in BW against a competitive Protoss. Firebats and Marines could be kited by dragoons, You could barely kite micro vs zealots, and medics were easy to kill. Mech units were the only way to combat Protoss because Marines, the main bio unit, were just terrible. Goliaths were stronger meatshields for tanks and Vultures with Spider Mines were better harassment units.
SC2? Mech works vs Toss, but the problem with it is with similar problems vs Zerg. If you're caught out of position then you're, for a lack of a better word, fucked. This is especially true since Blizzard (and GSL) are introducing bigger maps which increases immobility issues.
People also seem to forget there's a unit composition called Bio-Mech which incorporates both Bio and Factory units.
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On March 24 2011 15:11 ParasitJonte wrote:
Again, as many, many people in this thread have said again and again: Zealots need speed.
Charge doesn't work. It's by far the weakest upgrade relative to what it's intended to be. It's intended to make Zealots viable midgame and lategame versus ranged units. But it doesn't work at all. What happens when you're up against kiting units? The Zealots charge forward uncontrollably (it's impossible to position them properly and when they charge you have zero control anyways) and any bronze player stims and retreats and starts kiting again. At this point the zealots are just dying. But hey, charge has a nice visual effect!
What you want to do is obviously to be able to get a surround. While they are kiting you, you run past them a little and then engage in order to maximize your damage. Kiting will still be effective but if you have superior numbers of Zealots you'll do alright. All good players have realized this long ago and I don't get why we don't pressure Blizzard more on this. Charge was a bad idea in the first place and it didn't work. Time to switch it to something that does. Start a petition.
Charge upgrade increases overall passive speed of Zealots...
I agree with your point about charge being uncontrollable and making control difficult, it should be an ability that can be toggled or activated using the 'c' key.
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On March 24 2011 11:13 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long. But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game. Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
Like IMMVP did in GSTL yesterday?
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It doesn't really matter if Zealots don't hit. Once Charge is researched and you have enough chargelots like a good boy should, the scare tactic that a big blob of crap is rushing toward the Terran's army has enough scare factor as is, so you can just let your Stalkers wail away while some pick off Vikings or just cast storm. By that time, the Terran's army will be in shambles and you should have been constantly pumping out Colossi and warping in reinforcements.
Quit whining.
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On March 24 2011 15:11 ParasitJonte wrote:
Again, as many, many people in this thread have said again and again: Zealots need speed.
Charge doesn't work. It's by far the weakest upgrade relative to what it's intended to be. It's intended to make Zealots viable midgame and lategame versus ranged units. But it doesn't work at all. What happens when you're up against kiting units? The Zealots charge forward uncontrollably (it's impossible to position them properly and when they charge you have zero control anyways) and any bronze player stims and retreats and starts kiting again. At this point the zealots are just dying. But hey, charge has a nice visual effect!
What you want to do is obviously to be able to get a surround. While they are kiting you, you run past them a little and then engage in order to maximize your damage. Kiting will still be effective but if you have superior numbers of Zealots you'll do alright. All good players have realized this long ago and I don't get why we don't pressure Blizzard more on this. Charge was a bad idea in the first place and it didn't work. Time to switch it to something that does. Start a petition.
Calling everyone who disagrees with you a bronze player and everyone who agrees with you a good player isn't helpful. It's also not helpful to repeatedly ignore the fact that the Charge upgrade activates a passive speed buff to Zealots already. If what you want is no charge and even faster speed, say that. Try not to, however, wander over to the Blizzard forums as an assumed majority and start a petition. They get that 24/7 from all angles of the game and they don't have a reaction other than to lock the thread.
The best policy for change is to be as honest and straightforward as you can be. State your opinions and ideas simply and clearly and leave room for discussion.
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charge has one good benefit and that is the ground speedupgrade (which makes it way easier to micro a Stalker/Zealot Ball)
charge just doesn't work as it should, only if your opponent i like in the open and you have him outnumbered alot with Zealots.
it comes far to late and is to expansive to be viable option earlygame.
Now if they splitted charge into 2 separate upgrades (Speedupgrade+Chargeupgrade)
and made one of them a cybernetics upgrade then it could have some uses.
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200/200 is simply ridiculously high price for what zealots get.
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But hey, they removed the Amaluet... I guess that's ok.
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EPT
