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On March 24 2011 10:19 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 10:16 IVN wrote:On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? And CS is used on all units...so whats you point? CS still >>>> charge although its 50/50 vs 200/200 Worst logic known to man, and then some. He is saying that not all units have concussive shells. Thus charge is still useful 100% vs 2 races and l ike vs 90% of the T units.The fact that CS hits all unit is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are talking only about charge, and how charge works. No one says get charge in every match up all the time 100% of the time. If you don't feel like 200/200 is worth the investment, don't do it. I guess all the top players that take charge were wrong and they will be even more wrong when they take this buffed charge lololol
LOL, it doesnt matter, since at the time in the game a toss user researches charge, terran only has marauders. Well, to be exact, like 40 marauders, 3 or 4 ghosts and 10 vikings.
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You don't really get charge till VERY lategame because 200 gas is a suicide amount to spend on 2 base
I mean, count the number of times its 2base vs 2base PvT and terran just walks straight into P's heavly concaved natural and rapes him because protoss teched too heavily
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I dont get this. This has to be the biggest whine post Ive seen from any race for any issue. Are people seriously complaining that charge needs to be immune to CS and automatically hit any time it goes off? If that were the case, it would be called "Teleport" instead of "Charge".
Im pretty sure the original issue was that if zealots charged up to units that were running away AND reached their targets, they still wouldnt swing because the units would move out of range. If THAT issue is not fixed, then people have a right to complain. If people are actually demanding that blizzard allow zealots to automatically get a hit in despite the fact that theyre still out of range and the units theyre chasing are still moving quicker than them (aka negating kiting altogether), then thats completely ridiculous.
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Here's what I understand from this thread. No one thought charge should always hit before patch, never heard a complaint about CS stopping charge. Everyone misinterprets patch. Charge doesn't ALWAYS hit when implemented. Charge is now the weakest skill ever.
I am Protoss btw. I think Blizzard should have put this in bug fixes to avoid confusion, or worded it better if it wasn't a bug fix. Charge was fine before, charge is fine now. Templars aren't super weak just because Khaydarin is removed, just learn to warp in before hand. Although, I do think KA nerf is dumb, maybe make it +15 energy, that nerf is kinda dumb IMO.
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I'm pretty sure Blizzard is going to fix it. As we all know, Browder and his boys are really doing their best to make SC2 the best gaming experience.
Let's be patient, pretty sure it's gonna be ok in a couple of months.
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On March 24 2011 10:37 BrTarolg wrote:
You don't really get charge till VERY lategame because 200 gas is a suicide amount to spend on 2 base
I mean, count the number of times its 2base vs 2base PvT and terran just walks straight into P's heavly concaved natural and rapes him because protoss teched too heavily
Well amulet was 150/150 so think of the money you saved :p
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On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long.
But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game.
Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
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On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs?
Actually... Yes... Mech is just so hard to transition into without dying and really gives little benefit except for a bit of immunity to splash damage... DPS is actually lowered in most cases!
And I'm a protoss!
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On March 24 2011 11:05 Disciple7 wrote:
Here's what I understand from this thread. No one thought charge should always hit before patch, never heard a complaint about CS stopping charge. Everyone misinterprets patch. Charge doesn't ALWAYS hit when implemented. Charge is now the weakest skill ever.
I am Protoss btw. I think Blizzard should have put this in bug fixes to avoid confusion, or worded it better if it wasn't a bug fix. Charge was fine before, charge is fine now. Templars aren't super weak just because Khaydarin is removed, just learn to warp in before hand. Although, I do think KA nerf is dumb, maybe make it +15 energy, that nerf is kinda dumb IMO.
Charge was already the weakest skill ever.
Mainly people expected a single zealot charging at a running stimmed marauder to always hit it (so long as the marauder doesn't have concussive) because that's how the buff was described.
I personally didn't expect the buff to change much of anything, by the time you have charge your zealots typically melt instantly anyways... it's not useful against good terrans. Mediocre terrans that overmake siege tanks? Sure. But not the bio balls.
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A simple thing that can be done is make "Charge (Buff)" disable the Marauder Slow while charge is active. Once charge wears off, the slow (if the slow is still active) would reenable.
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People seem to have gotten the wrong impression when the patch notes said:
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once
Some people seem to think that Zealots were going to charge indefinitely until they reached their target and hit it. Definitely not.
Now, let me try to explain how Charge worked against fleeing targets, before the patch.
The Zealot would charge towards a fleeing unit, say, a Stalker. The Zealot would come into melee range with the Stalker. But since Zealots couldn't attack while moving, the Stalker would simply keep walking without being attacked while the Zealot would run out of charge (since it had already reached the target) and not get any hits off on the Stalker.
Here is what the Charge buff did:
After getting within melee range of the target, the Zealot will stop moving and hit the target with its full attack (2 hits/8 damage per hit), no matter how far the target has moved since coming within melee range of the Zealot.
The Charge ability now activates a mandatory attack command after coming within melee range of the target.
I sure hope this hasn't been explained already... If it has (I probably should have read the entire thread), then I just feel silly.
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leave it to the martial arts legend to clear up melee attack details. <3 you wongfeihung
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@wongfeihung
that makes sense
and lol nice name
and thanks for explaining
Pretty good buff still I must say 
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On March 24 2011 01:52 Enervate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:46 TheYango wrote:On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone ![[image loading]](http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5407/hitu.png) This. You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended. So when a stalker fires a missile shot and the other unit moves out of range, the missile stops in midair? It's not infinite range. Because the marauder can't travel infinitely far away in the time it takes for the zealot to charge. You could argue that zealot charge is instantaneous, but it's clearly not, because the zealot itself is the missile and it has to travel over ground to reach the target. So when a missile attack is initiated because the enemy unit is in range, it's expected for the missile to land.
sadly, it is infinite range. If you use recall on stalker, the missile will follow the stalker until it hits the stalker. That's all fine and dandy but we are not talking about a missile here. We are looking at a zealot... that's right AN UNIT. You want an unit to keep charging until it hits? Really? People want infinite range?
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man just bring back zealot leg speed not this goofy charge stuff
zealots are hilariously slow in sc2 :\
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Again, as many, many people in this thread have said again and again: Zealots need speed.
Charge doesn't work. It's by far the weakest upgrade relative to what it's intended to be. It's intended to make Zealots viable midgame and lategame versus ranged units. But it doesn't work at all. What happens when you're up against kiting units? The Zealots charge forward uncontrollably (it's impossible to position them properly and when they charge you have zero control anyways) and any bronze player stims and retreats and starts kiting again. At this point the zealots are just dying. But hey, charge has a nice visual effect!
What you want to do is obviously to be able to get a surround. While they are kiting you, you run past them a little and then engage in order to maximize your damage. Kiting will still be effective but if you have superior numbers of Zealots you'll do alright. All good players have realized this long ago and I don't get why we don't pressure Blizzard more on this. Charge was a bad idea in the first place and it didn't work. Time to switch it to something that does. Start a petition.
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On March 24 2011 10:37 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 10:19 mprs wrote:On March 24 2011 10:16 IVN wrote:On March 24 2011 05:42 Zanez.smarty wrote:On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote:
A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great.
Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? And CS is used on all units...so whats you point? CS still >>>> charge although its 50/50 vs 200/200 Worst logic known to man, and then some. He is saying that not all units have concussive shells. Thus charge is still useful 100% vs 2 races and l ike vs 90% of the T units.The fact that CS hits all unit is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are talking only about charge, and how charge works. No one says get charge in every match up all the time 100% of the time. If you don't feel like 200/200 is worth the investment, don't do it. I guess all the top players that take charge were wrong and they will be even more wrong when they take this buffed charge lololol LOL, it doesnt matter, since at the time in the game a toss user researches charge, terran only has marauders. Well, to be exact, like 40 marauders, 3 or 4 ghosts and 10 vikings.
You have got to be kidding me... I give up, you win.
1) God forbid charge doesn't work vs ONE unit?
2) Its still a good upgrade to have vs Zergs and pretty good in late game PvP if it gets there.
3) If you don't like it, don't research it
4) giving unit compositions as a reason for ANYTHING is god awful.
Come on man, if you are going to whine, atleast know what you are talking about
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On March 24 2011 11:13 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long. But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game. Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
This is strongly false. Try using bio-based play in BW against a competitive Protoss. Firebats and Marines could be kited by dragoons, You could barely kite micro vs zealots, and medics were easy to kill. Mech units were the only way to combat Protoss because Marines, the main bio unit, were just terrible. Goliaths were stronger meatshields for tanks and Vultures with Spider Mines were better harassment units.
SC2? Mech works vs Toss, but the problem with it is with similar problems vs Zerg. If you're caught out of position then you're, for a lack of a better word, fucked. This is especially true since Blizzard (and GSL) are introducing bigger maps which increases immobility issues.
People also seem to forget there's a unit composition called Bio-Mech which incorporates both Bio and Factory units.
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On March 24 2011 15:11 ParasitJonte wrote:
Again, as many, many people in this thread have said again and again: Zealots need speed.
Charge doesn't work. It's by far the weakest upgrade relative to what it's intended to be. It's intended to make Zealots viable midgame and lategame versus ranged units. But it doesn't work at all. What happens when you're up against kiting units? The Zealots charge forward uncontrollably (it's impossible to position them properly and when they charge you have zero control anyways) and any bronze player stims and retreats and starts kiting again. At this point the zealots are just dying. But hey, charge has a nice visual effect!
What you want to do is obviously to be able to get a surround. While they are kiting you, you run past them a little and then engage in order to maximize your damage. Kiting will still be effective but if you have superior numbers of Zealots you'll do alright. All good players have realized this long ago and I don't get why we don't pressure Blizzard more on this. Charge was a bad idea in the first place and it didn't work. Time to switch it to something that does. Start a petition.
Charge upgrade increases overall passive speed of Zealots...
I agree with your point about charge being uncontrollable and making control difficult, it should be an ability that can be toggled or activated using the 'c' key.
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On March 24 2011 11:13 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:On March 23 2011 20:40 Mercury- wrote:On March 23 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote:
As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous. So I guess when all the P players say that mech is fine vs P it really means mech needs huge buffs? Thats right. Mech needs a buff and bio needs a nerf. That way, there would be a reason to transition and not just mass MM all game long. But that's not what would happen. If you buff 'Mech, then there would be no transitions. Terrans would play like PvT in SC1: they would build a few Marines and wall-in, then Siege-expand. They'd build nothing but Factories the entire game. Maybe a Starport for Vikings as a supplement, or for Ravens late-game. Terrans want nothing more than to mass one building. And they will mass whichever building produces the strongest stuff. In SC1, that was the Factory. In SC2, it's the Barracks. What you will never have is Terrans throwing down 4 Barracks, building MMM for a while, then throwing down Factories to get Tanks and stuff.
Like IMMVP did in GSTL yesterday?
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EPT
