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On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is.
Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT.
The patch notes are right.
Congratulations!
If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit.
It's not a damn bug fix either.
Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before.
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On March 24 2011 04:49 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D ^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying 
Zealot charge grants passive movespeed increase too.
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On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is.
But... the patch notes weren't misleading to anyone who took even a moment to think about it.
Charge will hit units that run away. Alright cool. Nothing in there mentioned kiting or concussive shells. Nothing mentioned unlimited range, or max speed, or immunity to stuns or slows or anything like that. Would you be upset if a single Chargelot charged into a group of 40 marines and got evaporated before it reached it's target? What if it's specific target was fleeing, while the other 39 marines opened fire and demolished the Chargelot in mid charge? Would you complain because the patch notes were misleading? I mean... I charged the target... it was fleeing... so...
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As a terran who goes bio and harasses the hell out of protoss, I'd say that charging zealots should be immune to the slow component of marauders or the stun component of fungal while they're charging. But not immune to damage. It'd make zealots more usable in small engagements, and have no effect whatsoever when there are 30 marauders on the field.
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Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT.
Yep, the issue is that the chargelots can't catch up with stimmed, concussive marauders. Charge = 6, concussive reduces that by 50% to 3, and stimmed marauders can kite at 3.37.
But it's a positive change for every other unit that can't outrun chargelots. Only stimmed, concussive marauders can outrun chargelots in this game, and only for the limited duration of stim (and only if there are enough marauders to hit every chargelot with concussive).
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On March 24 2011 05:48 jgelling wrote:Yep, the issue is that the chargelots can't catch up with stimmed, concussive marauders. Charge = 6, concussive reduces that by 50% to 3, and stimmed marauders can kite at 3.37. But it's a positive change for every other unit that can't outrun chargelots. Only stimmed, concussive marauders can outrun chargelots in this game, and only for the limited duration of stim (and only if there are enough marauders to hit every chargelot with concussive).
The marauder issue has nothing to do with the topic title, or topic, except for people deciding it's time to discuss balance. Balance is a completely different issue, I'm more concerned with everyone who has a misconception. Which is a lot of people, including the OP.
Balance, once again, is a different issue.
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Zealots are not supposed to be the super awesome counter to bio. They're still primarily support/tank units. I don't see why Zealots neeed to be able to charge through concussive. One of the biggest reasons to upgrade concussive is to kite zealots. Force field is still supposed to be the major counter to bio until Colossi get out.
The new Zealot charge does help. The terran isn't always going to have marauders with concussive. Heavy marine armies and heavy roach armies are a bit easier to deal with. The charge buff isn't super amazing, but it's nice to have. I'm not going to go out of my way to get charge, but later in the game when I do pick it up, I'll take what I can get.
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On March 23 2011 21:52 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? This is definitely a strawman argument, absolutely nobody here thinks charge should nullify fungal. Nor mothership recalls, or whatever other ridiculous scenario you can think of. This is specifically about marauders with concussive shell, stop trying to add other things in.
It's not completely about concussive shells
he was playing sbrugby, who has been on high stakes poker, unless it is a smurf
I am only reading this to see if that is verified, so I disagree with you.
On topic, I like your using the term strawmanning, though I feel it is wrong here. He references marauders when talking about other abilities that slow zealots. There is a direct correlation. Not only that, but he brought up the entirety of the argument (marauders) in his 4th and 6th lines. I don't believe it is strawmanning.
edit: sad to see noone clarified whether or not this is Brian Townsend... liked seeing him on High Stakes Poker as I'd watched him on FullTilt in high stakes with Farha and Elezra among others (dwan, anyone?  )
More on topic: People assessing the slowing abilities (marauder concussive here) are really off basis on what this buff was meant to do. It was meant to make zealots hit marines/marauders/hellions/roaches that were fairly slow ... I've seen unstimmed marines not being hit by a charge; the animation was pretty bad. It was really frustrating to see. I don't believe the change should alter the way concussive shells work, and that is why I have only read this topic to see if the person playing was really sbrugby, and tried to defend someone I didn't feel was intentionally strawmanning.
Am I going to whine about the price of one vs another? Nope. I like concussive shells, and everything works out in the end. BW wasn't patches in a day, and before 1.08, was pretty imbalanced. Storms could kill lurkers in 1 go, for instance! The game is actually very balanced and well developed in comparison to most games that come out.
If you're going mass zealots, I don't believe having to spend 200 gas on the upgrade is going to hurt that much. How much gas do zealots cost?
I noticed someone mentioning the amulet being taken out, and I don't feel this is the right topic/thread for that. I'm sure there are multiple threads complaining about that issue.
The one thing I ask in closing is this, did you really expect this buff to negate the effects of other races abilities? I didn't.
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The issue they were tryin to solve was the once where the mm ball would goat zealots into charging and stim away quickly with damage so they could kite. Toss still needs FFs trap the terran army.
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On March 24 2011 01:05 frodoguy wrote:
The patch note says that it should at least hit fleeing units once, so yeah, its a fail on them not keeping up with their words. They should have made it so that when zealots under charge get their first hit ( 2 swings i.e 16 dmg) or when the duration of charge ends, whichever one comes first, the charge buff finishes. That's the impression that i got when the patch note said that zealots "will at least get a hit off fleeing units". That way, at least your charge upgrade wouldn't be for nothing.
They really should be abled to get a hit off at least once.
Imagine the following patch note.
Protoss
- Colossus damage has been increased; four lasers dealing 50 damage are now fired.
If we were to hold them by our interpretation of whatever their patch notes say, things would quickly snowball out of hand (not to mention everyone's going to interpret differently). What they should learn to do is be as explicit as possible. I certainly don't want them catering to all my hopes and aspirations because I read the note differently than they wrote it.
Also, to be fair, what we could learn to do is use the PTR.
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50/50 upgrade > 200/200 upgrade. Sounds legit.
OT: Then I think the patch notes should be a bit more specific in what encompasses a "fleeing unit".
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Why did they list this change under 'balance'? Seems more suited to 'bug fixes' cause charge wasn't really made better, it just made it so zealots didn't charge then stop and do nothing when it was supposed to get a hit off.
Does seem like a bit of a pointless change if they can still be endlessly kited...probably the most overpriced upgrade I can think of.
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On March 23 2011 18:00 Dommk wrote:
Doing a few tests.
A Charging Zealot will always attack a marauder who is stimming away. A Charging Zealot won't attack a maraduer who is stim kiting with Concussive shells.
As far as I know, the latter couldn't be done pre-patch, so if you ahve a large amount of Zealots, then you should be able to get some hits in instead of none :S Still sucks, but as someone said above, if you could do damage without actually reaching the target then you could get awkward scenarios where you could gib units by charging them.
Don't know why they just cant make it so Zealots are immune to slow whilst charging, at least that way they could always get ONE hit in before being slowed and kited. But I guess getting one hit against a Marauder every 10seconds is too OP (/sarcasm)
I agree. WTF is charge good for, if it costs so much and cant even reduce the effectiveness of a 50/50 upgrade?
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On March 24 2011 05:43 DeckOneBell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is. Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT. The patch notes are right. Congratulations! If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit. It's not a damn bug fix either. Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before.
Can someone please test if zealot swipes a speed zergling while temporarily entering into the charge barrier of a zealot?
For example, swarm of zerglings dances into range of a zealot, zealot charges, but zergilgns run away with superior speed
Maybe even try it on creep to give zerglings an extra boost in speed.
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is that the same sbrugby that plays poker cause he is uber balled if so
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims.
I for one find it very funny that both Z and T have a cheap ultra massable unit, that can be built from early to late game no problem. And they are super effective. Sure 5 Rauder maybe lose to 5 chargelots, but you can be damn sure that 30 rauders own 30 chargelots. Same for the roaches. In fact, if you watched the game between Tester and Losira, you could see how mass speedroaches (+ burrow) with a dash of speedlings destroy gate units. I will never accept that as perfect balance. that is just so wrong. The one side just masses units (roaches) and the other has to have perfect FFs and awesome gardian shields, and it is still close.
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I watch quite a lot of games every day and I dont recall any significant instances of anyone actually kiting a lot of zealots during a big battle where this was a factor. maybe someone can site an example game where this is apparent please :D
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On March 24 2011 09:02 rSSinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:43 DeckOneBell wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Exarl25 wrote:On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it...
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge?
Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch?
With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case...
Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't...
Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so.
We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is. Hey. You. They ALWAYS GET ONE HIT OFF ON A FLEEING UNIT. The patch notes are right. Congratulations! If you watch the OP's replay, it shows a zealot not hitting a marauder that successfully kites a charging zealot with concussive and stim. NOT a zealot attacking a fleeing unit. It's not a damn bug fix either. Test if you need to confirm, I've already tested a zealot charging a stimmed marauder that is not using concussive shell. It gets an attack off, instead of just cancelling the charge as before. Can someone please test if zealot swipes a speed zergling while temporarily entering into the charge barrier of a zealot? For example, swarm of zerglings dances into range of a zealot, zealot charges, but zergilgns run away with superior speed Maybe even try it on creep to give zerglings an extra boost in speed.
Zerglings with metabolic boost on creep move at a little over 4.7 speed. Charging zealots move at approximately 6. A Zergling that skirts close enough to activate Charge is guaranteed to be hit barring extreme circumstances (fungal growth or really whack terrain, for example).
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On March 23 2011 18:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
Ohhh man, dont you get that CS is an early game upgrade? What is wrong with the idea, that a toss LATE GAME upgrade (far more costly and difficult to get) for one unit type, can enable that unit type to be immune to CS once every 10 sec, and let them do some damage?
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On March 24 2011 09:07 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
edit: marauders have to stim. It takes like 17 marauder shots to kill a zealot given equal upgrades. Throw in the fact that marauders overkill, it's worth it for charge just to force stims. I for one find it very funny that both Z and T have a cheap ultra massable unit, that can be built from early to late game no problem. And they are super effective. Sure 5 Rauder maybe lose to 5 chargelots, but you can be damn sure that 30 rauders own 30 chargelots. Same for the roaches. In fact, if you watched the game between Tester and Losira, you could see how mass speedroaches (+ burrow) with a dash of speedlings destroy gate units. I will never accept that as perfect balance. that is just so wrong.
The one side just masses units (roaches) and the other has to have FFs and awesome gardian shields, and it is (not even) close.
Did he just say "awesome guardian shields"? Because GS is so hard to use.
fixed.
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EPT
