EPTWasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet?
Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game!
Charge still does not hit - Page 8
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet? Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game! | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
They really should be abled to get a hit off at least once. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:13 Toadvine wrote: It's not bad, but it's not especially good either for the cost and research time. Consider this: Even heavy gateway styles like Tyler's 2 Gate Robo expo into double Forge +2 timing get Blink first, and often don't even have Charge for their attack. I recall one game where a player tried to rush for Charge off 2 bases vs Terran in the current GSTL, and it pretty much failed miserably. The suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is bad is appreciated though. First off, you really mean Colossus and HT support. Zealot/Stalker and Zealot/VR lose to a typical mixed bio ball pretty decisively in medium to large numbers. It becomes a total slaughter with Medivacs on the field. And HTs just got massively nerfed. And really, are you saying that you have "no answer" to Chargelot/Colossus based armies? What does that even mean? Because oftentimes a TvP midgame will have a Marauder-heavy army with Medivac and Viking support versus a Gateway+Colossus ball. Are you really saying Terran is at some kind of noticable disadvantage in this situation? Stalkers attacking Marauders while they kite Zealots isn't ideal for the Protoss either, but you work with what you have. I'm not a big fan of the core unit interactions in SC2 overall, but you'd really expect a 200/200 upgrade clearly intended to close the distance to ranged units to do something against kiting opportunities. For example, Blink is an upgrade that serves its purpose really well, which is why it's almost always researched immediately after the TC finishes. You REALLY don't want to start making arguments about "non-gas units" as Terran. Seriously, Terran has the least gas-intensive armies in the game, to the point where they don't even get any geysers on their third for a very long time. I play Protoss, and a 100/25 Marauder is practically "non-gas" from my perspective. I'm pretty certain there's almost no situation in the game where a protoss army costs less gas in any given engagement, and that also includes PvZ. Absolutely agreed, and I do think Terrans should have better opportunities to control space and the opposing army movement. I'm a huge proponent of a Seeker Missile buff, as well as reverting Siege Tank cost back to the BW values (150/100 and 3 Supply). But I'll agree to any change that makes Terrans use more casted abilities in general, because I feel that's really something missing from their play at the moment. I'm not that upset with it, although I don't think it's very difficult to execute. However, you should count the amount of anti-FF threads that have popped up after the GSL finals, which were essentially arguing against how MC uses FF (since we haven't seen any other player replicate that to date). That's actually quite hard to do, and we had 20+ page threads complaining about it. Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything. Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all. Great response! Clarification ... [b]RE: Blink first - I'm pretty sure players do this because Blink researches faster (110 compared to 140) and is less expensive (150/150 vs 200/200). RE: No real answer to Zealots - Essentially what I mean is this: Protoss and Zerg seem to have amazing answers for mass mineral dump units that can be used in an incredibly cost efficient way. Examples: [spoiler]1. PvT - Marines are mitigated by Colossus, and Storm quite well. The natural armor +1 on every unit, plus the instant +2 armor buff from Guardian shield essentially halves the Marine's DPS from the start of the game. 2. PvZ - Zerglings are easily neutralized in various stages of the game by Zealots, Forcefields, and eventually Colossus and HTs. 3. ZvT - Banelings. You can literally trade supply down with the Terran in ratios of like 1 supply for 10, sometimes more. Fungal growth. Fungal growth annihilates marines in such a bad way. Even with medivac support, fungal growth is TERRIFYING for Marines. 4. ZvP - Again, Banelings. Banelings are amazing against Zealots, and even Stalkers and Sentries to some degree if you can slip by the FF's.[/spoiler] Terran vs. Mass Zealots [spoiler]What I'm saying is that Terran lacks truly effective AoE weapons to deal with mass Zealot. Our primary AoE weapon is the Siege Tank and you CANNOT use that against Zealots. It has been argued that Blue Flame helions are the way to go, which I somewhat agree with. It seems like these other weapons are 'specifically designed to kill marines' but we don't have anything specifically designed to kill Zealots. A quick round of 4 Zealots WP'd into the back of one of our bases and all of the sudden we have 600 EHP to deal with, lol. [/spoiler] RE: Casted abilities for Terran - While I agree that HSM needs some attention, I'm not sure we need more 'casted abilities,' as you suggested. The standard Terran army takes a seemingly ridiculous amount of micro to be effective; Explanatory List [spoiler](1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle. (2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro. (3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes. (4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command. (5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units. (6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space. (7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks. I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long. [/spoiler] With the above list I'm not trying to cry saying, "oh man we have to do too much," I'm simply saying there is already A LOT of micro that is not just positional, but requires specific selection groups and activated abilities, many of which have to be placed or targeted. I cannot even tell you how many times I've lost huge battles because the insane amount of micro required to fight on par with the opponent's army. Adding more casted or activated abilities is not really desirable for me at this point. RE: Gas Intensive - I agree that marines and maruaders do not cost a lot of gas compared to Zealots and Stalkers (+25 gas compared to marauder), or ling/bling/muta, but that only considers someone massing marauders. But when you get into the more intense Terran armies, Medivacs (100g), Vikings (75g), Ghosts (150g), Tanks (125g), Thors (200g), Ravens (200g), Banshees (100g) ... I'd hardly say these things are "light" in the gas department. Nice response though. Thank you! EDIT: Spoiler tags are broken, I cannot figure out why -_- | ||
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote: Wow this is sad to see. Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet? Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game! Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the charge change. And now we find out it doesnt even work?  | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
It would be nice if there was a reason NOT to autocast charge, although I'm not sure how the skill would be modified. | ||
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jmack
Canada285 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote: Wow this is sad to see. Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet? Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game! This, this is going to suck hard. What other options does P have now? Since release PvT has been about "teching" to stop goddamn 1.5 tier units and it boiled down to storm or collsus. Welp, now that storm would seem relatively useless compared to two forge robo play, expect COLOSUS COLOSUS COLOSUS every game....and then they get alpha'd by reactor vikings. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:50 ooni wrote: Ha? What are you on about? So charge is supposed to have an infinte range? Suppose an allied mothership recalled the marauder will the zealot charge at it like Speedbreaker until it is cancelled? Here is a diagram for everyone ![[image loading]](http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5407/hitu.png) This. You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
On March 24 2011 01:46 TheYango wrote: This. You could argue that Zealots should be unslowable while charging, but that's an entirely different balance point. As far as this particular change, it's working the way it's supposed to, so at the very least, people shouldn't act like this is a bug or not working as intended. So when a stalker fires a missile shot and the other unit moves out of range, the missile stops in midair? It's not infinite range. Because the marauder can't travel infinitely far away in the time it takes for the zealot to charge. You could argue that zealot charge is instantaneous, but it's clearly not, because the zealot itself is the missile and it has to travel over ground to reach the target. So when a missile attack is initiated because the enemy unit is in range, it's expected for the missile to land. | ||
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Tracedragon
United States948 Posts
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
On March 23 2011 20:12 GhostFoxer wrote: Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price. In most late game scenarios you've stopped spending your gas on sentries and are using it on colossus or other tech. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:41 -orb- wrote: Wow this is sad to see. Wasn't this supposed to be the saving grace for losing amulet? Can't wait to watch all the amazingly exciting and unpredictable pro pvt matches to come in the future with colossus balls every single game! No it wasn't. Multiplayer isn't faceroll like it would've been if KA+FG happened.  | ||
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ribeye
United States27 Posts
On a slightly related note, Charge kinda sucks imo not because it gets nullified to an extent by concussive kiting, but because we have almost no control over it at all. If we could actually activate it ourselves, it could be used for both engagement AND retreat and would require decisions on how to use it on our part as players. Not sure how they could go about balancing that though. Maybe shorter duration / longer cd? Either way, I doubt they'd do it simply because it'll be like a speed only stim for zealots, which is not unique enough. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:44 ribeye wrote: I guess most people just misinterpreted it, myself included, haha. The change still is nice though. On a slightly related note, Charge kinda sucks imo not because it gets nullified to an extent by concussive kiting, but because we have almost no control over it at all. If we could actually activate it ourselves, it could be used for both engagement AND retreat and would require decisions on how to use it on our part as players. Not sure how they could go about balancing that though. Maybe shorter duration / longer cd? Either way, I doubt they'd do it simply because it'll be like a speed only stim for zealots, which is not unique enough. You can activate it yourself. Right click on the charge icon and it will stop auto-casting. Then select Zealots and hit charge (might require a target). | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:52 f10esqftw wrote: I think the patch was supposed to stop cases where the zealots would charge up to a unit and then the unit was running away so they wouldn't be able to take their swipe. In the case of marauders, the zealots never actually GET to them, so it wouldn't apply... I haven't tested it out, yet, though. Yeah this. I hope this works now. Before you could have 15 zealots chasing two marauders who stimmed to run away... and did NOT attack the zealots. The zealots would chase them and perhaps one of the 15 would get a hit after a ton of failed charges. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
Why is this even a thread? Charge immunity to marauder slow IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC. Zealots getting the last attack after charging at a unit currently SLOWER THAN IT and landing one hit is the CHANGE TO CHARGE. Previously zealots would charge and then NOT ATTACK after the charge against units that were only slightly slower than the zealot. What the hell was everyone else expecting? The thread title is misleading, replies are misleading. Come on guys, don't spread misinformation. | ||
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UruzuNine
Canada162 Posts
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ribeye
United States27 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:00 Schamus wrote: You can activate it yourself. Right click on the charge icon and it will stop auto-casting. Then select Zealots and hit charge (might require a target). Yeah, you can but it does require a target. In its current form though, its nearly impossible to use manually in a realistic scenario given its range upon activation and that they just stop charging when they 'catch' their target. In my opinion, there's no reason to take it off auto cast atm, which sucks :[. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On March 23 2011 18:02 Genome852 wrote: 2. Charge is amazing because it forces the Terran to maneuver his army. Stutter stepping reduces DPS even when done near perfectly. Charge is a form of damage mitigation. It might force Terran to move their army and therefore reduce DPS, but your own army will have to follow to be able to hit them, thereby negating this effect. Meanwhile, a significant part of your army is just acting as a meatshield instead of doing damage. It is entirely possible that the lower damage cooldown on units like Stalkers alleviated this effect to some extent (more efficient move-shoot), but not 100%. | ||
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ReseT
United States273 Posts
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