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On March 23 2011 21:31 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:27 ParasitJonte wrote:
Just give us zealot speed and remove concussive shell. Jesus, it's so simple :/ Zealot speed; yes please. Remove conc shell; oh dear god no thank you.
you guys realize that charge increases zealot speed by 0.5? and while its questionable if charge is better then a further speed increase it definitly makes zealots way easier to use.
@ topic
zealots hit 100% if its possible for them. the 1 marauder per zealot with good micro is just a special situation and makes sense given conc shells.
but you wont outrun the zealots anymore and see them swinging into air.
so be happy about the buff but dont expect them to magically hit evrytime and ignore slow.
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On March 23 2011 20:42 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
Suppose for a day, that we let stalkers shoot slow shells and then we let mauraders force field, who do you think would be more upset?
I just don't even... wow...
Are you trolling, or do you honestly not understand the problems with such an absurd comparison?
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On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"?
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Straw Man
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On March 23 2011 20:43 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:29 Toadvine wrote:
Jokes aside, you'll find that if you get large enough bio ball, you'll kill all the Zealots anyway, because all of your units are ranged and can attack at the same time. Bonus points if you engage in a confined space, then it'll be total curbstomp. The problem occurs when you trade armies and the Protoss reinforces with only zealots. Small armies of bioball against chargelots can get pretty difficult especially when you have few/no medivacs.
I guess, but defending vs just Zealots, or mostly Zealots with some Stalker support isn't that difficult with some decent simcity. You see Terrans drop and evade Chargelot warpins by running behind the mineral line all the time. You're not going to be as supremely cost-effective as you are in a big engagement, but eh, it's definitely not something insurmountable.
To be completely honest, this thread just makes me sad overall, as someone who remembers the fearsome badasses that the BW Zealots were. Most of the Terran players posting here honestly seem to think Zealots should never get to attack their army after they get CS. Seriously, think about it, a core unit of one race should just be delegated to a meatshield because the other races got a 50/50 60 second upgrade. This is made even more funny by the fact that of all the gateway units, Zealots are the only one with decent dps for their cost.
But eh, imo the whole concept of CS is stupid, and I would much prefer Terrans having stronger (or cheaper) Tanks instead to combat Zealots, or maybe Hellions with less damage but higher attack speed. Dustin Browder thinks Terrans shouldn't need to build Tanks in every matchup though, so I guess that won't happen.
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On March 23 2011 21:52 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? This is definitely a strawman argument, absolutely nobody here thinks charge should nullify fungal. Nor mothership recalls, or whatever other ridiculous scenario you can think of. This is specifically about marauders with concussive shell, stop trying to add other things in.
On March 23 2011 22:12 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:23 Bactrian wrote:
So let's look at this the other way.
Currently: If a zealot reaches the unit after charging it will hit.
What (some of) you want: If a zealot starts charge, it will always get a hit.
What this would actually mean: If I fungal charging zealots, they would still hit. Magically. Just like people want zealots that don't get in range of marauders also magically hit. If you target a specific unit, but other units are in the way, the targeted unit still gets hit. Again, magically. Because in the case of the marauder it is never in attacking range of the zealot, just like all the other examples I gave. That's how dumb the idea of "guaranteed hits" is.
Now say giving charging units some kind of snare immunity, that's a better idea. Of course the patch has only been out for 1-2 days, so maybe people should wait and see what the current change is like before jumping around crying "zealot dead in pvt"? http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Straw Man
It's not a strawman when both concussive and fungal are working through the same mechanism. In the case of concussive kiting, the zealot never gets in range of the unit. Same with fungal. Fungal doesn't stop attacks or spells, only movement. Concussive slows movement. Units blocking impede movement.
I'm NOT saying anything about whether or not the zealot should be able to catch a marauder.
I AM saying that the idea using charge should guarantee a hit EVEN IF THE ZEALOT NEVER GETS IN NORMAL ATTACKING RANGE is stupid.
What this patch changes is that if the zealot charges and gets in range it WILL attack.
What people are complaining about is that a zealot charging does not always attack because it DOES NOT ALWAYS GET IN RANGE. They said there should be a guaranteed hit. Which makes about as much sense as a fungaled zealot attacking, neither a kited or fungalled zealot will be in attacking range, but people want charge to hit through concussive anyway.
Do you see my point?
edit: made last sentence of second last paragraph clearer.
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Edit lol sorry thought i was in the live report thread after watching 5 hours of gsl....
my fault... delete post
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No Protoss players, who are good, will actually claim that charge is bad versus Terran.
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It actually annoys me when I hear people complain about "kiting" Zealots, or Zealots with the Charge buff. There are just a few things I'd like to point out to help round the discussion.
(1) Terran does not really have any answer to mass Zealots with the charge buff when the Protoss player has support; Colossus, HT, Stalker, VR, etc ...
(2) Marauders kiting Zealots is not ideal for the Terran, but more of a macgyver'd way to not get 100% slaughtered by Zealots. It takes the Marauder five shots to deplete the Zealots shields, then another 11.1 shots to kill the Zealot assuming natural attack and armor for both.
That's approximately 16.1 shots from a Marauder to kill a Zealot. That's exactly 24.15 game seconds it takes to kill that Zealot in a one on one fight with the Marauder doing perfect kite micro and maintaining maximum DPS (which is not likely).
(3) If the Marauder stims, he can kill a Zealot in 12.075 seconds. In either stim, or non-stimmed, that is A LOT of ground moving backwards required to kill a non-gas unit.
(4) Kiting with Marine/Marauder + Stim is one of the only things we can really do to manipulate the enemy army, and that is still indirect. I'm saying "manipulate" specifically, because Terrans have developed kiting techniques to compensate for the lack of actual manipulated abilities like Force Field, Grivaton Beam, Vortex, or Fungal Growth, all of which have a direct manipulation affect on the opponent.
(5) Can you really be upset with a technique that essentially relies on focused micro? I reiterate, killing Zealots with Marauders is not ideal, or efficient for the Terran player. It is done more out of necessity than anything.
(6) The Charge buff also does these two things quite well: (a) immediately stalls the opponent's forward movement and holds them at a specific range. This holding at a range allows for your ranged units to go to work, essentially without recourse: Stalkers, HTs, Colossus, VRs, etc ... (b) Forces a retreat.
(7) Charge is useful against many Terran unit comps, not just Marauders.
Closing thoughts
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I would not be upset with the buff to Charge AT ALL. It is essentially a bug-fix and is now working as it was intended to work in the first place. If your Terran opponent is massing Marauders, building Zealots is still the most competent selection after pressing "W".
200/200 is a steal for this upgrade. It's auto-activated, on cooldown, buffs your mineral dump unit, and can be chronoboosted out if needed. This patch buffed charge in a pretty big way.
It is often said by the TL community that Terran is the a+move race, but then all of the control techniques that we use are brazenly attacked/diminished/overlooked. Clearly Terran is not the a+move race. That is a ridiculous claim. I will clarify that most higher level players realize that Terran is actually an extremely micro intensive and delicate race to perform well with.
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So my understanding is that charge would get improved so that everytime a Zealot charged, he would charge right to the target and do at least one hit as the patch notes said. Not only are the Blizzard patch notes decieving, but this is bad for the balance of the game. Losing amulet is a huge loss for Protoss when battling Terran bio units. A huge loss.
If you watch the GSL victories of sanZenith over sCfOu, he simply would have lost, despite having a tech advantage, in nearly every engagement if he didn't have amulet. It really is that simple, he had to warp in storms to keep up. Unless you have Colossus, if you don't get amulet you are fighting a huge uphill battle against Terran bio.
So a buff to charge was supposed to be the equalizer here. Zealots aren't ideal for battling masses of range units clumped up, no matter what kind of units they are (melee unit in general are bad at this naturally for reason I won't go into here), and when Terran can mass cheap high DPS units into a ball, you need something to stop them. But with Zealots being slow, and with Terran having an ability to further slow units, the idea of them getting off one hit (8 base damage) didn't seem overpowered, especially when Protoss just lost the ability to quickly create HT's with storm ready to deal with Terran bio reinforcements.
So as someone else said, Protoss has lost the entire Templar tech tree against bio Terran. If you really think it is still viable, watch sanZenith over sCfOu. Very close games, where basic Terran units supported by casters (medivacs and ghosts) battle basic Protoss units supported by casters (sentries and HT's). These were very much even games that came down to the micro of HT's and ghosts, and with the current patch sCfOu would have pummeled sanZenith (obviously he would have had to use Colossus). And with the increase in bunker construction and stimpack research length, this leads us in one direction, more 4 gating vs Terran.
So how did this patch make PvT more balanced or better?
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On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
Yeah but the whole point of charge is that nothing can outrun it. A charging zealot is supposed to be the fastest unit in the game. Stutter-step or not, a ranged unit shouldnt be able to just side-step a charge. I think that's why blizzard addressed the issue to begin with.
My question is whether or not a concussion marauder shell should stop a charge dead in it's tracks or not. IMO, blizzard should have fixed charge by ensuring concussive shells are unable to stop an already charging zealot.
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i think instead of being in the balance changes, this should have been put in the bug fixes as "zealots now get off at least one hit after their charge animation reaches the target enemy unit"
then people would not have been expecting as much from this change is they did
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You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
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On March 24 2011 00:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
Yes. With the removal of amulet, chargelots actually need to do some damage against Terran bio to make it a viable tech tree. If Templar tech is going to be viable, we'll need to get far ahead in economy and have HT's sitting around collecting energy. But the game doesn't work like that. So now all we have is Colossus.
Watch this: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
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I think the amount of improvement charge got is just about perfect. Having charging zealots get auto hits off on marauders in the complete open would tear terran infantry apart. It takes something ridiculous like 12 shots for a marauder to kill a zealot remember. Chargelots are meant to be used in conjunction with good forcefield usage (after all they cost no gas, so sentries are easy to get) and good positioning. You can't expect to be able to just A-move and win in wide open spaces.
After all, to rephrase an earlier poster in a less rude fashion, zealots DO only cost 100 minerals and have crazy health and dps. This means you'll have to support them with other units and effectively choose your engagements to make them maximize their cost-effectiveness.
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On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
No Protoss players, who are good, will actually claim that charge is bad versus Terran.
It's not bad, but it's not especially good either for the cost and research time. Consider this: Even heavy gateway styles like Tyler's 2 Gate Robo expo into double Forge +2 timing get Blink first, and often don't even have Charge for their attack. I recall one game where a player tried to rush for Charge off 2 bases vs Terran in the current GSTL, and it pretty much failed miserably.
The suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is bad is appreciated though.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(1) Terran does not really have any answer to mass Zealots with the charge buff when the Protoss player has support; Colossus, HT, Stalker, VR, etc ...
First off, you really mean Colossus and HT support. Zealot/Stalker and Zealot/VR lose to a typical mixed bio ball pretty decisively in medium to large numbers. It becomes a total slaughter with Medivacs on the field. And HTs just got massively nerfed.
And really, are you saying that you have "no answer" to Chargelot/Colossus based armies? What does that even mean? Because oftentimes a TvP midgame will have a Marauder-heavy army with Medivac and Viking support versus a Gateway+Colossus ball. Are you really saying Terran is at some kind of noticable disadvantage in this situation?
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(2) Marauders kiting Zealots is not ideal for the Terran, but more of a macgyver'd way to not get 100% slaughtered by Zealots. It takes the Marauder five shots to deplete the Zealots shields, then another 11.1 shots to kill the Zealot assuming natural attack and armor for both.
Stalkers attacking Marauders while they kite Zealots isn't ideal for the Protoss either, but you work with what you have. I'm not a big fan of the core unit interactions in SC2 overall, but you'd really expect a 200/200 upgrade clearly intended to close the distance to ranged units to do something against kiting opportunities. For example, Blink is an upgrade that serves its purpose really well, which is why it's almost always researched immediately after the TC finishes.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(3) If the Marauder stims, he can kill a Zealot in 12.075 seconds. In either stim, or non-stimmed, that is A LOT of ground moving backwards required to kill a non-gas unit.
You REALLY don't want to start making arguments about "non-gas units" as Terran. Seriously, Terran has the least gas-intensive armies in the game, to the point where they don't even get any geysers on their third for a very long time. I play Protoss, and a 100/25 Marauder is practically "non-gas" from my perspective. I'm pretty certain there's almost no situation in the game where a protoss army costs less gas in any given engagement, and that also includes PvZ.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(4) Kiting with Marine/Marauder + Stim is one of the only things we can really do to manipulate the enemy army, and that is still indirect. I'm saying "manipulate" specifically, because Terrans have developed kiting techniques to compensate for the lack of actual manipulated abilities like Force Field, Grivaton Beam, Vortex, or Fungal Growth, all of which have a direct manipulation affect on the opponent.
Absolutely agreed, and I do think Terrans should have better opportunities to control space and the opposing army movement. I'm a huge proponent of a Seeker Missile buff, as well as reverting Siege Tank cost back to the BW values (150/100 and 3 Supply). But I'll agree to any change that makes Terrans use more casted abilities in general, because I feel that's really something missing from their play at the moment.
On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
(5) Can you really be upset with a technique that essentially relies on focused micro? I reiterate, killing Zealots with Marauders is not ideal, or efficient for the Terran player. It is done more out of necessity than anything.
I'm not that upset with it, although I don't think it's very difficult to execute.
However, you should count the amount of anti-FF threads that have popped up after the GSL finals, which were essentially arguing against how MC uses FF (since we haven't seen any other player replicate that to date). That's actually quite hard to do, and we had 20+ page threads complaining about it.
[B]On March 23 2011 23:10 TimeSpiral wrote:
200/200 is a steal for this upgrade. It's auto-activated, on cooldown, buffs your mineral dump unit, and can be chronoboosted out if needed. This patch buffed charge in a pretty big way.
Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything.
Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all.
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From playing around in the unit tester, the way the change works is as follows: If the zealot gets close enough to the target so that the target is in melee range, the zealot will always hit it. As many of the people in this thread have mentioned, It was not designed to stop kiting; the patch was designed so that units could no longer avoid the damage from a zealot that entered this melee range by moving out again, like stimmed marines often did to me. Concussive shell stops the zealots reaching this melee range in the first place, so there should be no expectation of any change there.
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I love charge and still love it, even if it didn't get any boosts. However, I agree that it shouldn't be an automatic hit, that would be like turning a zealot into a projectile (how about a ground carrier that shoots zealots instead of interceptors, mmmm.... yummy 
Yeah but the whole point of charge is that nothing can outrun it. A charging zealot is supposed to be the fastest unit in the game. Stutter-step or not, a ranged unit shouldnt be able to just side-step a charge. I think that's why blizzard addressed the issue to begin with.
The only way a unit outruns a charge is by running directly away, and by already having a lead (i.e. is already at range) the situation is much like a gazelle and a cheetah. It seems like "sidestepping" is a misnomer, and "in full retreat" might be more apt.
All of this comes from a mostly Protoss player who loves the charge upgrade and fully intends on still using it.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Toadvine wrote:
Like I said in my initial point, the top Protoss players seem to disagree with you on that point, consistently getting Blink first and delaying Charge in favor of more Colossi/Phoenix. Maybe it would get more use at 150/150, but I'm not really sure. Also, anything Protoss can be Chronoboosted, and that's not really an argument in favor or against anything.
Also, if this thread is any indication, the buff wasn't big at all.
Personally I've always felt that was because having blink stalkers makes defending Coli from sniping so much easier and paves the way to a nice robo-council-archives transition. Just throwing that out there :p
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What I thought would happen is: chargelot charges toward a fleeing target, reaches it, gets in attack range and if the attack animation gets off, the attack connects. This is different to prepatch when this wouldn't necessarily mean it attacks even if it reaches the fleeing target. Is that what's happening now? Some posts make it seem like the chargelot is reaching its target with charge and still doesn't attack.
Just need some clarification because it seems like some people thought that charge would keep working until the chargelot reaches the fleeing target, even if it moves beyond the charge distance.
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On March 24 2011 00:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
You guys really think Charge should negate c-shells? Seriously?
Remember that charge has a cooldown. You can kite your heart out while zs wait. All we ask is that we don't drop 1000 mins on ten zealotss only to have none of them do any damage beacuse of conc shells.
Either fix charge, or nerf c-shells, especially since amulet is gone. Personally, 50/50 is too cheap for such a powerful upgrade when you think about it, so I'd at least fix the price of c-shells if charge can't do anything against it. Why spend 200/200 on an upgrade that can be defeated by a 50/50 upgrade from a T1 building?
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On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit.
This would make sense, if it applied to all units equally. Take blink; I am still perplexed at how far roach spit can actually fly! I blink away and that stuff keeps following!
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EPT
