EPTwhether charge should negate slow effects is a different discussion and was not supposed to be addressed by this patch
Charge still does not hit - Page 9
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BeefAvenger
Canada54 Posts
whether charge should negate slow effects is a different discussion and was not supposed to be addressed by this patch | ||
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dogmeatstew
Canada574 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:09 BronzeKnee wrote: Yes. With the removal of amulet, chargelots actually need to do some damage against Terran bio to make it a viable tech tree. If Templar tech is going to be viable, we'll need to get far ahead in economy and have HT's sitting around collecting energy. But the game doesn't work like that. So now all we have is Colossus. Watch this: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509 I'm not sure why you would think that a game could be considered balanced if one upgrade just simply ignores the other, massive already ignores CS but I don't see why I speed upgrade should negate a anti-speed upgrade, that just seems like raging to me. Now what I actually want to know is, does the application of one effect over right any existing effects? If a marauder hits a zealot with CS and then the zealot charges the the charge get off? I'm pretty sure if zealot charges and it gets hit with a concussive shell the charge is slowed but it would seem completely fair if the effects over wrote each other. OR, if I'm not mistaken CS slows a unit by 50%? and charge increases the zealots movement speed by 100%? so doing some maths, a zealot who is charging and hit by a concussive shell should move at the speed of a normal zealot who is not charging right? Is this currently how it works? I don't actually know but that seems like it would make the most sense to me, that the effect is applied on the units current speed not their base speed. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On March 23 2011 20:12 GhostFoxer wrote: Charge in its normal form and in the new patch, has a benefit that I think some you maybe over looking. If you have a mix of Protoss gateway units (stalker, sentry, zealot) you can force field to block the escape route of kiteing units. Then the "wall" of zealots can close that gap faster, pining the army. Its not so much about "catching" as it is about closeing. The faster they get in to combat the more damage they do in a shorter time. So its an upgrade that helps in a diverse army, and is not so good in the early game, hence the high price. I dont quite see how this relates to the change. If they're FFded from retreating, they aren't fleeing. You seem to have just summarized how charge works with FF in general, which I believe people already knew, unless I read your post wrong. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
As it was before, if the fleeing units' move speed was greater than the zealot move speed after charge expires, they would never hit, now they will. Essentially the coding prior to the change didn't include an attack with charge, charge would expire with the zealot standing next to the unit, and then the zealot would auto-attack the unit if its in range-- since the target's move speed is greater than the zealots move speed, it would not attack and would proceed to try to chase it down and never get a hit in. After the change, an attack 'comes with' charge, or the move cycle happens after an attack, so they get one in. Hopefully that's clear. | ||
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ptrpb
Canada753 Posts
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote: ....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D ^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying  | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:49 NexUmbra wrote: ^This, at first I thought charge was better but tbh its just annoying Zealots base speed is increased when charge is available so you do get a speed buff. In small engagements you can micro for a surround with charge | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:41 ptrpb wrote: I'd be interested in seeing how different TvP would be if Chargelots were immune to Concussive Shell. Ye, it would make the matchup even more protoss favoured  | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
Explanatory List (1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle. >>Protoss don't have anything like a siege tank, I'll give you that. They do have immortals, which require positioning very carefully to absorb siege tank fire before other units. But have to avoid marines. Protoss and Zerg have to try to arrange units to avoid siege fire splash if possible... very hard to do. (2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro. >>Protoss need sentries on a different hotkey than other units ideally for perfect FF placement. Stalkers should be on another hotkey for blinking or focus fire air unit killing. >> Protoss have to keep zealots in front of sentries and stalkers. No easy task since stalkers are so fast. (3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes. >> Protoss, same problem for HT and Sentry and stalkers blink. (4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command. >>Some of the same problems for phoenix, observer. (5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units. >>Same problem for phoenix, voidray, and warp prism holding high templar... dropping off HT and possibly changing to warp mode. Not popular yet, but will be one day... hard to do in a battle though. (6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space. >>I don't think medivacs have this problem anmore. They are slower now and generally never fly in stupidly... but I guess you have a point, it happens sometimes. (7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks. >>I want to compare them to colossus. In a perfect world, you would get your colossus firing at bigger groups of units. Hard to do in a big fight. Minimal Colossus micro means moving out of air unit range. I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long. >>Warping units in during a fight kills micro for Protoss. I guess you could add feedbacks, individually blinking stalkers to avoid damage, making sure guardian shield covers all units, turning off charge during certain battles, retreating HT, splitting HT, splitting Sentries, etc. You have a good list, but I think Protoss have just as much to worry about. | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge? Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch? With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case... Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't... Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so. We got buffed guys... be happy! | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
That's it. Before you sometimes wouldn't swing, or you'd swing but do no damage cuz they moved. Now you always hit if you swing. Whoo? | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
I think it is a bug in implementation. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
What the patch did fix was that Zealots would Charge after fleeing units like Hellions/Roaches/Stalkers but not get a single hit on target. Now whenever a Zealot goes into charge mode if he doesn't get hit by a Concussive Shell it will guarantee a hit!!! | ||
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote: Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it... What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge? Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch? With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case... Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't... Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so. We got buffed guys... be happy! It's misleading patch notes people are complaining about here. Prior to release virtually everyone was under the impression that charging Zealots would always get at least 1 hit off on a fleeing unit, because that happens to be exactly what the patch notes say. Not to mention the key fact that the change is listed under "balance" rather than bug fix. I'll say that again, Blizzard have labelled this as a balance change and not as a bug fix as many on here are suggesting it is. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:57 RemrafGrez wrote: To be fair, let's compare with Protoss: Explanatory List (1) Siege Tanks have to transform twice for every positional adjustment and you have to account for transformation time, you have to spot for siege tanks. They have a minimum range. They kill your own stuff, lol. All units now have to consider friendly fire for the whole battle. >>Protoss don't have anything like a siege tank, I'll give you that. They do have immortals, which require positioning very carefully to absorb siege tank fire before other units. But have to avoid marines. Protoss and Zerg have to try to arrange units to avoid siege fire splash if possible... very hard to do. (2) marines and marauders have to activate stim (sometimes multiple times) and be sliced, split, or use kite micro, sometimes combining retreat with split/slice and kite micro. >>Protoss need sentries on a different hotkey than other units ideally for perfect FF placement. Stalkers should be on another hotkey for blinking or focus fire air unit killing. >> Protoss have to keep zealots in front of sentries and stalkers. No easy task since stalkers are so fast. (3) Ghosts cannot be in the same selection (hot key) as your MM ball otherwise you have to tab+stim. Ghosts have to forward scout, sometimes cloak, and then preemptively cast well placed EMPs or single target snipes. >> Protoss, same problem for HT and Sentry and stalkers blink. (4) Air units, such as the Raven, have purely casted spells that have to be placed or targeted and will fly straight into the enemy if issued an accidental attack+move command. >>Some of the same problems for phoenix, observer. (5) Flying units such as the Viking have to be separately hot-keyed, positioned for a flank, and then shift+focus-fired. They also need to transform to target ground units, then transform again to target air units. >>Same problem for phoenix, voidray, and warp prism holding high templar... dropping off HT and possibly changing to warp mode. Not popular yet, but will be one day... hard to do in a battle though. (6) medivacs have to be on a separate hotkey to effectively heal while the MM micro, or so they are not issued attack move commands and fly into hostile air-space. >>I don't think medivacs have this problem anmore. They are slower now and generally never fly in stupidly... but I guess you have a point, it happens sometimes. (7) Helions are ineffective attack move units. They need to be grouped and positioned to attack line-formation flanks. >>I want to compare them to colossus. In a perfect world, you would get your colossus firing at bigger groups of units. Hard to do in a big fight. Minimal Colossus micro means moving out of air unit range. I'm not even going to touch base on multi-pronged medivac harass during big battles, reapers, banshees with cloak, strike cannon, or Yamato cannon because the list is already too long. >>Warping units in during a fight kills micro for Protoss. I guess you could add feedbacks, individually blinking stalkers to avoid damage, making sure guardian shield covers all units, turning off charge during certain battles, retreating HT, splitting HT, splitting Sentries, etc. You have a good list, but I think Protoss have just as much to worry about. Well, to clarify, I was not trying to imply that the other races don't have "just as much to worry about," I was simply saying that the Terran army has a lot of very specific things like activated abilities. It could probably be argued that the Terran forces benefit the most from higher levels of micro, and suffer the most from a lack of micro. Now, in response to your list you mentioned a lot of similar things in response to multiple line items. And it is only fair to mention everyone has to worry about things like positioning your units in "basically" the correct position: short range in front, long range in back, etc ... | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:32 Jotoco wrote: A 50/50 Tier 1 upgrade still negates a 200/200 Tier 2 upgrade. Great. Really? I wasn't aware that concussive shells existed on every single unit the Terran made. When did they add concussive shells to siege tanks? When did they add concussive shells to marines? When did they add concussive shells to hellions? These are all units that I have replays showing my Chargelots MISSING their attacks against these units on the run. This won't happen anymore. BUFF. Charge is used on units besides Marauders... u know that right? | ||
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jgelling
55 Posts
Since 3 < 3.37, a chargelot can never catch a stimmed + concussive marauder (at least not one on one with micro). The chargelot still needs to get in range to hit (and isn't). But what was happening before was even worse. Take away stim for a second. A chargelot would charge at 6, get reduced to 3, catch up with the target, but the target is moving away at 2.25. The chargelot can't hit targets that are moving - even ones that are moving slower - during the duration of the charge effect! Before patch: Chargelots cannot hit targets that are moving away at ANY speed After patch: Chargelots can hit targets that are moving away at slower speeds (so they can catch up) - the only thing that can outrun a chargelot is stimmed, concussive marauders. BUT, I'd note that's not so bad - while those stimmed units are running away, their stim attack boost is fading and they've taken damage from the stim. You can just pull back and wait for the stim to end. But yeah, you're right: overall it's not a very significant change in patch 1.3, certainly not as big a deal as removing KA. | ||
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OsoVega
926 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:21 Zanez.smarty wrote: Oh wow... this nerf to charge went too far. I cannot believe they would take this already underused ability and nerf it... What? Whats that, sorry? .... they didn't nerf Charge? They BUFFED Charge? Are you saying that there are literally 0 negative changes to Charge in the latest patch, and that the only changes are positive ones making Chargelots better now than they were before the patch? With all the whining and complaining, I could swear that wasn't the case... Look people, we got a buff. We hit more units now, more often. Chargelot DPS went up over the course of the game. Marauders negate Charge... so what? They always have. Nothing is changing now. Marines no longer do, Hellions probably don't, Siege Tanks won't... Why are we complaining again? Because the change wasn't EXACTLY what you expected? Did you go on the PTR to test and give feedback to this change? No, didn't think so. We got buffed guys... be happy! To me it seems more like a bug got fixed. | ||
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