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On March 23 2011 17:18 Baarn wrote:
I'm with the school of thought that charge is more of a ball vs ball upgrade than foregoing blink early on since you have, what seems like, infinitely more options for harass, chasing fleeing units etc. Aside from that Terran would be really pissed off if charge had priority over shells. Never hear the end of it.
Dude, a 200/200 upgrade that comes from a building that costs 150/100 and can only be built after cyber core should be inferior to a 50/50 upgrade that comes from a 25/25 tech lab available immediately after rax and before 4 minutes 30 secs?
Damn, your school of thought must be lacking in logic.
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this change was king of silly how could an upgrade beat "intense" micro of the other player.
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I thought the patch notes were essentially going to give infinite charge range, which seemed pretty ridiculous/horrendous/non-sensical to me. Fair enough if Blizzard fixes the mechanic, but I don't get why a lot of Protoss players think infinite charge + invulnerability to debuffs would be anything other than insane, both from balance and graphical standpoints (speedy gonzealots).
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On March 23 2011 18:00 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way. Stim + CC is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel
Stim + CC is cheaper, yes, by 50/50. That's not much. A maruader costs 25 gas each, a zealot does not. The tech lab is cheap, sure, but that's still 50/25, making our dedicated upgrade cost 200/175.
Yours is 200/200 + whatever the citadel costs. However, you use the citadel for blink as well and getting to HT and +2/+2/+2.
My point is that arguing about the cost for the upgrades is pointless.
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On March 23 2011 18:04 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:00 Sewi wrote:On March 23 2011 17:50 urashimakt wrote:On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range? Remember that the Terran also paid for both the Stim upgrade and the Concussive Shells upgrade. Whether a chargelot makes contact with a stimmed slowing marauder or not, one side is going to "lose out" on paying for those upgrades in at least some way. Stim + CC is still cheaper than charge. not to mention it only requires a techlab which is also a lot cheaper than a citadel That bit was mainly meant for perspective sleepingdog's taking injury to his upgrade being trumped by a unit. The actual bit of my post that should be important to the topic is that second half. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:02 Zealot Lord wrote:
But in all seriousness, although I was HOPING it would fare better against kiting marauders, it wouldn't make much sense that they would be able to land a hit if they can't even get within range in the first place (unless they made charge immune to conc. shell, which I wouldn't mind :p). This sums up the two sides to the coin developing here very succinctly. One's what we may or may not have wished the patch note to have been, and one's logically why that patch note is sound as it actually is.
I know and I agree mostly. Thats why I didnt critizise it 
i just want people to realize that charge is an upgrade that is pretty far into the protoss tech tree and requires a huge amount of recources. In my opinion, it therefor should be pretty strong against bio units since they are cheap and way easier accessable
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On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss.
Don't think anyone's denying the usefulness of Charge.
But the idea of being able to attack a CS kiting marauder once every 10seconds didn't exactly seem over the top. But I guess for some Terrans here, being able to attack a kiting marauder once every 10seconds is too absurd of an idea...
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On March 23 2011 18:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:07 willeesmalls wrote:
what color are protoss tears? Charge is fine. If you don't think it's worth 200/200, don't get it. Your loss. Don't think anyone's denying the usefulness of Charge. But the idea of being able to attack a CS kiting marauder once every 10seconds didn't exactly seem over the top. But I guess for some Terrans here, being able to attack a kiting marauder once every 10seconds is too absurd of an idea...
not only that.
I guess that peole are upset because they simply expected more from this change. With the recent HT nerf, tosses were hoping for something else that could be effective against mass marauders.
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On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D
Nope I rather have charge even though I can't solo marauders early on.
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I guess it really doesn't matter if charge works or not since most protoss only build zealots with the intent to use them for meatshields because they never hit the bio army anyways rofl.
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On March 23 2011 17:42 Jayson X wrote:
That's why speedlots > chargelots.
But how would it work anyway? Ignoring concussive for at least one hit and then be affected? Would sound kinda strange to me.
Aren't Zealots supposed to be half-shifting into energy or something when they charge? It's not strange at all that they'd be immune to slow effects.
If you really wanted Charge to earn its 200/200 and be remotely comparable to Zealot Leg Enhancements, it would make the Zealot immune to all attacks while charging...
Perhaps I'm just grumpy, but Leg Enhancements : Charge seems a lot like Reaver : Colossus - the new version is easier to use in a 1a ball, but eliminates the interesting uses of the unit and reduces it to a specific role in the now-mandatory Protoss Ball.
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Concussive forces sentries in order for early zealots to be effective, once charge is out you want to be using the gas on high templar, if it doesn't fill that role then we'll just see less and less templar tech.
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On March 23 2011 18:15 storm44 wrote:
I guess it really doesn't matter if charge works or not since most protoss only build zealots with the intent to use them for meatshields because they never hit the bio army anyways rofl.
Oh they do if you aren't gonna let the Terran kite you in the open and look like an idiot. Let them get out of position a little by a wall, building or forcefield.
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This is pretty dissapointing. Even if we completely misunderstood things or read them wrong... It's utterly disappointing. I want gateway units to be useful on their own... not in superior numbers.
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As a wise person has once said, when a player of a certain race thinks an ability of another race is "fine as it is" it's probably underpowered. That's all I'm gonna say, since this debate is getting increasingly ridiculous.
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On March 23 2011 18:17 Dingobloo wrote:
Concussive forces sentries in order for early zealots to be effective, once charge is out you want to be using the gas on high templar, if it doesn't fill that role then we'll just see less and less templar tech.
There is still the problem that marauders kite the zealots so that templars will never get in range of the bio ball while it is kiting away from toss army
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Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
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On March 23 2011 17:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:25 urashimakt wrote:
I don't have the editor with me, but I assumed that they added a range slop to Zealot swings so that if they reached a target that's moving they'd stop and complete a swing instead of stop, try to swing, then fail. I don't think it's unreasonable that a target outrunning them even while they're charging is able to avoid their melee hit. This doesn't make sense in the slightest. So I pay 200/200 for an upgrade and the result is, that my opponent can just...run away while taking exactly ZERO damage? Doesn't that sound retarded to you in the slightest? Especially if we compare it to stim+concussive chasing and killing basicly everything that is in range?
No, not even remotely, it's not like chargelots didn't already make zealots incredibly more effective. Chargelot/Templar combo counters so many other units. 200/200 for an upgrade that PERMANENTLY buffs your mineral sink, I don't understand how you can complain when it just got a buff. I don't thin, they should auto hit when under concussive - the entire point of concussive is to slow the enemy approaching you. At the very best, which I believe is what the upgrade accomplished, it should be a "if the zealot reaches the target, it THEN will get at least an attack off."
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The change is that charge stops at 0.1 range from the target, which is the same as zealot attack range, so they would always land a hit when the charge stops, because of reaching it's target.
Before it would stop at 0.3125 and if the target was moving faster than the zealot he would not be able to land a hit at all.
On March 23 2011 18:07 Lurk wrote:Unless there is a direct counter to mass chargelots, they can't go around eliminating the indirect counters one by one. By direct counter i mean a unit that i don't have to micro babysit to be effective - and neither marauders nor hellions accomplish that. Sure, you can argue that the same is quite true for the marauder, and i won't deny it. So something should be done about both. And yeah ... Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:01 NguN wrote:
....give me Zealot leg speed from BW instead of Charge please =D You do know that charge also increases zealot base speed ?
The speed upgrade in BW increased their speed by 50%, their SC2 speed would be 3.375(same as stimmed marines), instead of 2.75.
Leg Enhancements are clearly better for overall mobility and are consistent in battle, while Charge is better at the start of a battle, but the zealots are slower after the effect wears off.
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On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
Zealots get a movespeed buff when they get Charge (0.5 or something). I doubt that they would ever give the movespeed you would get with charge permanently, and if marauders can kite them even with such high burst speed, I don't think the BW buff would be any better, most likely a lot worse
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On March 23 2011 18:24 Skrelt wrote:
Stil i think they should change i back to BWstyle, perma speed > charge (however charge looks cooler tho)
This is getting stated a lot, I'm just starting to think that it might be worth it to reiterate that the Charge upgrade does still increase zealot base speed in addition to enabling the charge ability.
I looked up the old numbers just to make it more interesting.
SC2 Zealot Base Speed: 2.25
SC2 Zealot Upgraded Speed: 2.75
SC2 Zealot Improvement: 25%
SC:BW Zealot Base Speed: .8
SC:BW Zealot Upgraded Speed: 1.167
SC:BW Zealot Improvement: 45%
I'll also throw in the very general SC2 base speed: 2.25
Where 2.25 is just what most units move at before upgrades, excepting several air units, zerglings, stalkers, and those lot.
And since the complaint some have here is that a charging zealot (a zealot moving at over 100% increased speed) is unable to reach a kiting stimmed marauder while slowed, I doubt a mere boost from 25% to 45% increased speed would help. The benefit it would provide is faster map traversal.
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EPT
