EPTIs SC skill natural or trained? - Page 22
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Vindicate
United States169 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:05 Itsmedudeman wrote: So anyone who practices is suddenly not talented anymore? No one here is arguing that talent is the only thing that matters. People will practice hard because obviously anyone can get better, no matter how talented you are. Even at the age of 20 he was surpassing people in their 50s, 60s, all people who had played much longer than Mozart had. Lol, why do I bother? | ||
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CrushDog5
Canada207 Posts
"Talent" does not seem very important to expertise. Here is a readable summary of some relevant work. http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The Making of an Expert.pdf | ||
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:05 Itsmedudeman wrote: So anyone who practices is suddenly not talented anymore? No one here is arguing that talent is the only thing that matters. People will practice hard because obviously anyone can get better, no matter how talented you are. Even at the age of 20 he was surpassing people in their 50s, 60s, all people who had played much longer than Mozart had. You, and like 95% of the people making your argument, are ignoring that there are certain moments in the learning process where past training and knowledge congeal into recognition of a principle or fact. For the arts, this can come down to the specific conglomeration of experiences that a person has in their field, and is very different from a field like sc2 gaming. Arts rely not on a person's ability to draw, or play piano, or cut stone... art relies on understanding or intuitively knowing what is perceptually interesting to the group of people who care about that art. In sc2 gaming, these understandings came from a few places... playing thousands upon thousands of games, playing them against players that test your abilities, and thinking about how the game works and trying to understand it. If no one ever told you that building workers was the key to making it out of bronze, how many games would it have taken you to figure that out on your own? Hundreds? Thousands? How many years was it before sc1 trended away from early rushes and one base attacks with no followup? Of course, someone told you that because you troll this website where every strategy post says to build workers or to go watch day9 who says that in like every newbie cast. But how many weeks of your life were saved by that realization/teaching? There are hundreds of those realizations that go into being a great player, and the right teacher can save you years of training. You can't compare one person's hours of training with another's and say "talent" was the difference. A lot of factors go into how well you do any task, and "talent" is like "free will"... It's just a word we use to describe conglomerations of factors too difficult to measure or predict. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:10 Cain0 wrote: Starcraft 2 is much more trained than almost every other sport. If you try hard enough, you will be good. Whereas in Basketball, you can try all you like but if your 5ft2, you will NEVER play at a decent level. No you wont, i know people that have played hundreds of games in BW and been stuck at D, players who played alot and been stuck in Gold league on SC2. Mass gaming can help make you good, but it wont make you good always | ||
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:23 CrushDog5 wrote: People have done research on this. "Talent" does not seem very important to expertise. Here is a readable summary of some relevant work. http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The Making of an Expert.pdf Not only do you have to be prepared to invest time in becoming an expert, but you have to start early—at least in some fields. Your ability to attain expert performance is clearly constrained if you have fewer opportunities to engage in deliberate practice, and this is far from a trivial constraint. Once, after giving a talk, K. Anders Ericsson was asked by a member of the audience whether he or any other person could win an Olympic medal if he began training at a mature age. Nowadays, Ericsson replied, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to win an individual medal without a training history comparable with that of today’s elite performers, nearly all of whom started very early. Many children simply do not get the opportunity, for whatever reason, to work with the best teachers and to engage in the sort of deliberate practice that they need to reach the Olympic level in a sport. But it does probably require that practice and drilling begin very early, and good coaching is very important too. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
As a member of the "diamond in under 50 games since launch" club. I can tell you that I have no natural ability in this game. My hand-eye coordination has always been terrible, my reaction time is even worse (two very embarrassing years on the high school tennis team). I got into a higher league simply because I understand what the most important actions in the game are (macro, macro, and macro) and I do whatever I can to mimic the correct play. Because I watch the game, I know what the timings are and what they look like when they are done correctly, something that no one at diamond-level is doing. A lot of this is better explained in Sirlin's Playing to Win, which is a must read for anyone seriously interested in improving their ability. | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:34 arb wrote: No you wont, i know people that have played hundreds of games in BW and been stuck at D, players who played alot and been stuck in Gold league on SC2. Mass gaming can help make you good, but it wont make you good always I don't think a few hundred BW games is anywhere near enough practice to significantly improve. Not everyone has the same learning curve, which I think is what most people are actually referring to when they talk about "talent" and "skill". | ||
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Kevan
Sweden2303 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:36 Monkeyballs25 wrote: But it does probably require that practice and drilling begin very early, and good coaching is very important too. I agree that you can become an expert in almost anything if you are really dedicated and hard-working. But if two people would be equally dedicated, hard-working and if they would have the exact same experience and practice then talent would be the deciding factor as to who is better. That´s what talent is: the x factor that makes the difference. Stuff like intelligence/understanding, if you´re a fast learner, reaction speed, and dexterity for example is, I think, important to when it comes to assessing the talent of a Starcraft player. Sure you can get better at all of those things but only to a certain degree. | ||
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
On March 21 2011 22:18 JeLLe04 wrote: with a metric fuckton of work I lol'd But seriously, I think that you are born with some natural ability, but if you are dedicated enough, play enough, and have the right mentality, then you can go as high as you want. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
If you don't realize that there might be better ways to improve at X, you will progress slower or get stuck faster than someone who actively tries to find answers or someone that just found the right path early (also called Talent) -Think about it, you can play 500 games and just "try to improve", getting stuck at the same level -You can play 500 games and analyze in a bad or inefficient way, slowly improving and hitting a plateau -You can play 500 games and constantly tune your methods of improvement, becoming more efficient and better faster and faster -You can play 50 games and happen to already hit the nail on its head in regards to how to improve best. It's all about figuring out what works best for you, and then REFINING your methods, way of thinking, analysis, efficient use of time, the list goes on and on. As for me, I started as an inefficient improver due to excessive or right out wrong analysis. But I started to work on refining every single aspect of myself, my methods, analysis etc and now I improve so fast that I find myself shocked looking back at my previous rate of progress. But I never keep refining and questioning my methods and ways. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
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brachester
Australia1786 Posts
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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
On October 08 2011 07:07 envisioN . wrote: I lol'd But seriously, I think that you are born with some natural ability, but if you are dedicated enough, play enough, and have the right mentality, then you can go as high as you want. I disagree. To get as high as you want, and not as in literally high, you do need to have actual born-with-it-talent, it's just too competitive at a high level, and if you don't have a hard-wired understanding of StarCraft, it's going to be rather difficult. Not saying it's impossible, but it's going to be difficult. | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
In one sport I compete in I hear alot of "talent is just being able to train alot without getting injured" and nonsense like that. The thing is the people without talent quit or stop trying quite early and then there are only the talented left. You can train over 20h/week (depends on sport but in most that is a decent amount) and not hold a candle to some guy that trains "twice a week". But yes when it comes to sc2, if you practice 14h every day for a year and you still cant reach GM level mmr I'd be suprised, regardless of talent. | ||
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