EPTIs SC skill natural or trained? - Page 21
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:34 Itsmedudeman wrote: Is this a joke? Do you know anything about mozart? He was incredibly talented as a child, there is NO one that can match his talent. Don't pretend as if there aren't a lot of 4 year olds who practice a LOT but there has only been one Mozart. The fact that he was much better than a lot of older people who probably had 20x more practice in their lifetime compared to his should be enough proof. How many people do you know that have been traveling musicians since they were children? Where can I find your gypsy camp? | ||
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Kevan
Sweden2303 Posts
If the player with less talent practices more than the other player he will play better. So at the highest level where basically everyone practices really hard then talent might be more important imo. If you would take some mediocre pro player and make him practice 14h a day he still wouldn´t be anywhere near the level of someone like MVP even if MVP would practice half as much. So I think that talent is the deciding factor to if you succeed as a player if you practice enough. On October 08 2011 05:48 shadowboxer wrote: Talent doesn't exist. Certain things come easier to some people. Well that´s what talent is. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:40 Offhand wrote: How many people do you know that have been traveling musicians since they were children? Where can I find your gypsy camp? How many people were composing and performing by the age of 5? Let alone 15-20? In 1 year he was able to do things that people who have been playing for 10 years couldn't accomplish. You think that it was the quality of practice that lead him to that? Let me tell you that you could not just put a random 4 year old into a position like that and they would not be so successful. | ||
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Crovea
Denmark100 Posts
And i just always stayed pretty high (1200 masters atm) with barely 1 game a day on average. My skills don't decay with breaks and i didnt drop in rating when i switched from terran to zerg in diamond,so i guess i might have some innate talent for the game. | ||
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shadowboxer
United States224 Posts
Look at Michael Jordan, he wasn't "talented" at all. The guy trained so ridiculously hard that he reached his goal of being one of the best, if not the best, basketball players of all time. It was 110% dedication, training and keeping an open mind. Never stop trying to learn, because there is never a point where there's nothing else to learn. If you have this attitude and combine it with good work ethic, you will succeed at ANYTHING whether it comes easier to you or not. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Karjakin By age 12 he was a grandmaster chess player, beating players who have played for longer than he's lived. By age 14 he beat the reigning world champion, I don't think I need to explain how much more practice his opponent had. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:39 PraetorialGamer wrote: In my opinion, there are some people that have an innate skill at some games that far overbalances any sort of practice. There are naturals, like Ret, that have such a good grasp of the game and its intricacies that don't practice as much as most top-level players. Then there are some naturals that practice a lot, and in doing so rise to the top of the game. Practice will make a player better, but if they cannot effectively play the game, then that practice is wasted. The best players are always the ones that practice the most. People like Ret, Tyler, or QXC can all get away with being decent progamers with minimal practice now because they've been playing BW for a decade before this game came out. But none of these people would be considered the top of the scene, they do not win consistently. The players with the same RTS background but consistent practice outperform them. I don't understand how this even gets debated when no-name Koreans from various practice houses eat top foreigners for breakfast with regularity. The entirety of the world cannot go up against the Koreans because of their practice houses. They aren't naturally good at video games, they just actually practice and attempt to better understand the game. Seriously watch Huk play the beta. He was just as good as anyone mass laddering 4 gates in Masters today. Huk goes to the oGs training house and one year later he's a regular code S contender. training houses have actual schedules and programs through which players can practice their weak match ups or areas that need improvement. This is a hell of a lot different than mass laddering, which seems to be many foreigner's idea of "practice". | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:45 Itsmedudeman wrote: How many people were composing and performing by the age of 5? Let alone 15-20? In 1 year he was able to do things that people who have been playing for 10 years couldn't accomplish. You think that it was the quality of practice that lead him to that? Let me tell you that you could not just put a random 4 year old into a position like that and they would not be so successful. Mozart started composing at 5, he was a child prodigy. However, nothing he wrote before he was 20 is actually remembered as a "great" work of his ("great" being defined as regularly performed, because such things are subjective). I know plenty of families who had their children taking music lessons at that age, and yes, anyone who sticks with it into adulthood is amazing at their given instrument, provided they consistently had lessons and practiced. None of these people are Mozart, however, thanks to child labor laws. His status as a child prodigy did not make him an adult composer. He had to practice for that. Do you think that if Mozart was taught how to play at four, started composing at five, and then spent the next 15 years as an apprentice baker he would have been a world renowned composer? Even if he dedicated his post-baker life to music? | ||
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Vindicate
United States169 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:48 shadowboxer wrote: Talent doesn't exist. Certain things come easier to some people. If I had a friend that was very good at SC2 first starting out, he's not "talented" his mind just understands how RTS works better than I do. The minute both of us start working really hard to get better, it will come down to the game itself and not "talent". Look at Michael Jordan, he wasn't "talented" at all. The guy trained so ridiculously hard that he reached his goal of being one of the best, if not the best, basketball players of all time. It was 110% dedication, training and keeping an open mind. Never stop trying to learn, because there is never a point where there's nothing else to learn. If you have this attitude and combine it with good work ethic, you will succeed at ANYTHING whether it comes easier to you or not. I disagree to an extent that there is no such thing as talent. The description you used of a friend who just picks up the game and understands it better.. that's the definition of natural talent - it's talent inherent in the way a person thinks or reasons. That doesn't mean natural talent rules all (you're quite right that hard work/practice pays great dividends) but a natural aptitude for cause-effect, deductive reasoning is an indisputably valuable natural talent to have in sc2. I am by no means an expert, a pro, or even skilled player. I'm mid-diamond. That said, I have played less than 300 games on ladder, around 100 custom 1v1 games, etc. My grand total of games played is around 500, so it's not like I "practice" a lot, or at all really. I have friends who have played upwards of 1000 games and are still bronze. They practice 2-3 hours a day and are still only at .500 record in that division. Obviously my own experience with friends and colleagues is far from statistically significant but I wonder at the mindset of "only practice and hard work will get you to the top - there is no such thing as talent." I suppose you could argue that the quality of practice is low so the talent level doesn't rise, but I know that my friend practices a little with me and a few other masters friends so I'd expect some level of improvement at least. Michael Jordan trained extremely hard, no doubt about it, but I think it is silly to proclaim he didn't have any "talent" for the game. If all it came down to was practice then any person in the world who wanted it badly enough could make it as a pro. That's obviously not the case. There is a theory called Multiple Intelligence Theory which basically states that people can be intelligent in a number of different fields based on the way their brain chemistry works.. the way people are "wired", so to speak. It's just a theory but it explains a great deal and also offers some insight as to how people might be good at various different types of games. It could be that a person is just hard-wired with an aptitude for observation and exploitation based on those observations. Just my take on it. | ||
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SynthFae
Poland26 Posts
Logical ability and understanding of patterns is something some people have excess off while others are better in different fields, but none of that will matter if you simply lack practice, because a lot in video games is about execution and that's something you need to practice to perform without having to think which button does what at any given moment. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Against Koreans though you either need to train decision making or be good at on the fly decisions. When MMA drops 2 / 3 of your bases you need to decide how to split the army and where to go first and sort priorities | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:59 Offhand wrote: Mozart started composing at 5, he was a child prodigy. However, nothing he wrote before he was 20 is actually remembered as a "great" work of his ("great" being defined as regularly performed, because such things are subjective). I know plenty of families who had their children taking music lessons at that age, and yes, anyone who sticks with it into adulthood is amazing at their given instrument, provided they consistently had lessons and practiced. None of these people are Mozart, however, thanks to child labor laws. His status as a child prodigy did not make him an adult composer. He had to practice for that. Do you think that if Mozart was taught how to play at four, started composing at five, and then spent the next 15 years as an apprentice baker he would have been a world renowned composer? Even if he dedicated his post-baker life to music? So anyone who practices is suddenly not talented anymore? No one here is arguing that talent is the only thing that matters. People will practice hard because obviously anyone can get better, no matter how talented you are. Even at the age of 20 he was surpassing people in their 50s, 60s, all people who had played much longer than Mozart had. | ||
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Nible
Sweden85 Posts
I was myself one of those >500 games Bronzers and I have to say that I actually all the way put a lot of effort into improving, no matter how stupid that might make me seem. Now I'm in Gold league with about 600 games played this season and I still put a lot of effort into improving, I just am not for some reason. So maybe I'm stupid, I don't know, but I actually do know that there definately i something that could be compared to talent for this game. | ||
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LeKiNGG
Canada110 Posts
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Cain0
United Kingdom608 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:06 LeKiNGG wrote: Like any other ''sport'', a big part, at a very high level of play, is pure talent. Starcraft 2 is much more trained than almost every other sport. If you try hard enough, you will be good. Whereas in Basketball, you can try all you like but if your 5ft2, you will NEVER play at a decent level. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
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alan25
United States379 Posts
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chip789
Canada199 Posts
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