i thuink boxer is going to practice insanely hard and reclaim his glroy with all the bad smash talk about him hes probably getting nothing but motivation. if the same people go to the finals all the time thats boring. i think its good that players got the up n down matches. it encourages better games and more aggression
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
Early games like this. You don't need a replay function to make a vod.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
Notably, MVP's macro in BW wasn't exactly top tier and JulyZerg's age of greatness was pretty long past when he moved on to SC2; he'd been a coach for a while, I believe, and wasn't really dominating when it come to micro or macro at the time. And I'm sorry but Boxer's prime is long past when it comes to mechanics. Once he joined Air Force he could be more or less counted out of serious competition.
My point here is that you can't use these ex-BW players as good examples of what should be "perfect" SC2 players because they're ex-BW players for a reason: they passed their BW prime and saw a good opportunity in SC2. I have no doubt that if we saw Jaedong or Flash in SC2 they would have better rax timing, better larva inject, and better mule drop timing than any of these three and would perform better as a result.
On the other hand, MKP's marine splitting is something to be in awe of. ogsMC's timing attacks are amazing and show a great grasp of the game. Jinro has fantastic macro and a great game sense. I love all these players because they've taken what they learned from BW and applied to SC2 in ways other people just don't.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
On March 18 2011 17:03 Ghost Reportin wrote: i thuink boxer is going to practice insanely hard and reclaim his glroy with all the bad smash talk about him hes probably getting nothing but motivation. if the same people go to the finals all the time thats boring. i think its good that players got the up n down matches. it encourages better games and more aggression
I think Boxer doesn't ever slack off. Like he said himself, he's past his prime and he's been playing Starcraft 1 competitively for a decade. It's hard mustering up the same motivation and drive to practice hard every game. I'm sure he does the best he can given his circumstances and age.
On March 18 2011 17:03 Ghost Reportin wrote: i thuink boxer is going to practice insanely hard and reclaim his glroy with all the bad smash talk about him hes probably getting nothing but motivation. if the same people go to the finals all the time thats boring. i think its good that players got the up n down matches. it encourages better games and more aggression
I think Boxer doesn't ever slack off. Like he said himself, he's past his prime and he's been playing Starcraft 1 competitively for a decade. It's hard mustering up the same motivation and drive to practice hard every game. I'm sure he does the best he can given his circumstances and age.
The biggest problem with SC2 so far is that some units or unit combinations are just too strong and overshadow others. Because of this, people are hesitant to try other units in order to create new strategies. Ravens can be useful in every matchup, but we don't see much raven usage. Seeker Missile for example, can deal damage and force an enemy back in the least, yet almost noone uses it. Neural Parasite, same deal. Protoss gameplay is defined by Colossus alone. Such a boring unit.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
And i think this is wrong based on the sheer talent of jaedong and flash. yeah their first few games will probably be not very good, but once they figure stuff out (give it a week of legitimate 10 hour/day practice) they will be likely as good as most of the RO8, and give it a bit more time of them studying all the different possibilities, within a month they'd be competing for the top spots, though they would definitely not be GIVEN first. they are not THAT much better in mechanics to make their inexperience with the game be non-existant.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
And i think this is wrong based on the sheer talent of jaedong and flash. yeah their first few games will probably be not very good, but once they figure stuff out (give it a week of legitimate 10 hour/day practice) they will be likely as good as most of the RO8, and give it a bit more time of them studying all the different possibilities, within a month they'd be competing for the top spots, though they would definitely not be GIVEN first. they are not THAT much better in mechanics to make their inexperience with the game be non-existant.
This is just pseudoscientific junk
First of all, you base this solely on thing like "talent" which is not scientific at all. Please, quality your arguments up.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
And i think this is wrong based on the sheer talent of jaedong and flash. yeah their first few games will probably be not very good, but once they figure stuff out (give it a week of legitimate 10 hour/day practice) they will be likely as good as most of the RO8, and give it a bit more time of them studying all the different possibilities, within a month they'd be competing for the top spots, though they would definitely not be GIVEN first. they are not THAT much better in mechanics to make their inexperience with the game be non-existant.
This is just pseudoscientific junk
First of all, you base this solely on thing like "talent" which is not scientific at all. Please, quality your arguments up.
Your analogy sucked. It's much more like the difference between a piano and a electronic keyboard, not a guitar. The guy you quoted are probably right.
Also how the hell do you propose to make a scientific argument over something like that? It is enough to be logical.
1. Certain units can be massed into a "ball of a critical number of that unit" and waltz over the opposition easily. This is possible due to the perfect unit movement AI and the unlimited unit selection. The only example for BW was Mutalisks, but due to the limitation of "12 Mutas per control group" you couldnt do it to the extreme. 2. There are quite a lot of units in SC2 which "dont shoot up" or have other limitations and thus you can hard counter them.
So as a result the unlimited unit control might need a revamp into limiting the number of units per control group (this would actually remove the 1-control-group syndrome and thus be good), but I would also think that each unit in a control group should take as many spaces as it costs supplies. Thus a control group would be able to hold "24 supply" instead of "24 Zerglings" which would be a disadvantage for Zergs compared to the "24 Marines".
The fact that "good players" are eliminated from tournaments by "bad players" is good, because it will keep tournaments from growing stale and boring and forces all players to evolve. Having the same two players face each other in the finals every GSL would become boring, because they would not have to develop new styles but rather perfect their own styles.
On March 17 2011 22:07 etheovermind wrote: Here why don't we make basketball 2 where everyone can dunk? That sounds like a good idea. Dunking is awesome so now everyone can do it! Wait heres more. The Basket is now the size of a table! This way everyone can make three point shots because three pointers are the bomb! Awesome!
The huge hole in that analogy is that most of the things that were difficult in BW that are now easier in SC2 were only hard due to technological constraints. Keeping them would be pretty arbitrary. It's like if for years basketball players had played with huge weights on their arms, and suddenly it was decided they would be removed.
'But now anyone can dribble the ball, it's no longer impressive. Bring back the huge weights!'
Yes i agree there were things that were basically weights in BW but things like awesome spells and amazing unit control (mutas/vultures/reavers)were awesome to watch. They basically made it so anyone could do those things.
I want to ask a question since I don't really know about it.
Has creating an UI that is difficult for players to handle, been an important part in the development of the Starcraft 1? I mean, was it part of the plan to NOT have MBS, Auto-mine, or better unit pathing? Or was it because of technological constraints or lack of vision (devs not thinking about it)
This is my theory regarding difficulty in playing BW: when I look at Starcraft in its simplest form, I think that devs might have thought that you never expand beyond the first one for an entire game, and that 2-3 unit producing structures would be enough for ending the game for that period (they never considered the game would be played so seriously and profesionally, or even that it would make such a big impact in gaming). So, they never considered adding these because they thought it wasn't needed.
Now, because of THIS, there was no Automine or MBS because otherwise you would have too little to do, so having them would literally dumb the game down (or at least, not having these features wouldn't be a problem as you don't have to do too many things at once on 1-2 bases) So, the idea was "let them send the workers manually, they don't have much to do anyway and it wouldn't be much a problem" BUT, the game turned out to be much more complex and had the potential to be played into extremes.
Unit pathing was different/hard to handle because of the game coding.
So now, how much of these are true, can someone really truly veteran of SC scene, who knows anything about it from the development period to where it is today, make clear? How correct/wrong am I?
Why does this discussion has turned into a goddam SC2 vs BW debate ? SC2 current situation have less to do with mechanics, don't listen to IdrA all the time ?
The question is more about hardcounters, a 200/200 zergling hydra army, with good micro, could deal some damage if not win the fight against a 150 zealot goon templar reaver army. In SC2, a 200/200 roach hydra army can't do a thing to a 150 stalker colossi sentry army, period. Not to mention micro doesn't change a thing against FF. SC2 is volatile because it forces you to make blind move based on limited information / scouting, and punish heavily for mistakes in army composition / build orders.
There is one or two way to fix it: buff defensive advantage so that it is easier to resist despite small mistakes, fix the whole tech tree or just nerf unit in a way that no unit hard counter any unit.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
Notably, MVP's macro in BW wasn't exactly top tier and JulyZerg's age of greatness was pretty long past when he moved on to SC2; he'd been a coach for a while, I believe, and wasn't really dominating when it come to micro or macro at the time. And I'm sorry but Boxer's prime is long past when it comes to mechanics. Once he joined Air Force he could be more or less counted out of serious competition.
My point here is that you can't use these ex-BW players as good examples of what should be "perfect" SC2 players because they're ex-BW players for a reason: they passed their BW prime and saw a good opportunity in SC2. I have no doubt that if we saw Jaedong or Flash in SC2 they would have better rax timing, better larva inject, and better mule drop timing than any of these three and would perform better as a result.
On the other hand, MKP's marine splitting is something to be in awe of. ogsMC's timing attacks are amazing and show a great grasp of the game. Jinro has fantastic macro and a great game sense. I love all these players because they've taken what they learned from BW and applied to SC2 in ways other people just don't.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
I agree completely. No way Flash or Jaedong will be able to grasp MBS or auto-mine.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
And i think this is wrong based on the sheer talent of jaedong and flash. yeah their first few games will probably be not very good, but once they figure stuff out (give it a week of legitimate 10 hour/day practice) they will be likely as good as most of the RO8, and give it a bit more time of them studying all the different possibilities, within a month they'd be competing for the top spots, though they would definitely not be GIVEN first. they are not THAT much better in mechanics to make their inexperience with the game be non-existant.
Completely agree. Similar thing with Grubby, even though haters are always gonna hate (yesterday he destroyed whitera on ladder 4gate vs 4gate, afterwards he beat kawaiirice and satinii in custom games). People with a raw talent for RTS and tons of experience will always be able to adapt quickly to any RTS that follows the basic principles of RTS games.
Before I begin: Yes, I think the game is a little bit unstable.
Maybe making the UI less user friendly and more competetive again is a solution - but I don't think it's a good one.
It's true that the problem in SC2 right now is that there are no good ways for a great player to absolutely destroy a "just good" player like it was in BW, since SC2's pathfinding and unit grouping make it hard to actually micro a lot in battles, and SC2's macro is so easy for professional players that it's hard to distinguish yourself from a "just good" player in terms of macro.
But instead of changing the UI, Blizzard should really redesign a lot of units and gameplay mechanics in general. Make the game more deterministic, and less based on chance, by introducing better early game scouting opportunities.
There are multiple ways this could be achieved:
- limiting the early game tech path of all races to something akin to that of Zerg in order to make build orders better readable (especially for Terran)
- give all races micro-dependent scouting abilities in the early game, so that they don't become overpowered in the mid and late game (faster overlords with less HP on Hatch tech, earlier visible observer out of CC with invisibilty upgrade somewhere along the tech path, temporary "scanning probe" for Terran with smaller sight radius instead of scan... etc, stuff like that).
- probably a lot of other ways which don't come to my mind right now.
Without considering the fact that Terran misses out one MULE when using Scan, they arguably have the best scouting ability in the game that is available early game, and even that is based on luck. If you hit the wrong side of the base with scan and miss the one Stargate on the other side of the base, it could mean a GG for you.
Blizzard should also put an effort into redesigning units in a way that lets their damage output scale better with skill (which translates to micro), as opposed to the situation right now where you basically achieve a close to optimal DPS output by 1a'ing and splitting a little bit (marines for example).
There are also basically infinite ways that this could be achieved:
- make immortals much slower but let them have higher damage output -> warp prism / immortal play akin to reaver shuttle play in BW.
- bring back lurkers (lots of damage with good protection /hiding / positioning, not much damage without).
- etc.
All of these things of course would have to be accompanied by a lot of adjustments in the game overall, since some new introductions would be blatantly imbalanced. But that's Blizzards job, they should be able to figure it out.
All in all, I think this angle of approach is much better than reducing the UI back to its BW capabilities.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
And i think this is wrong based on the sheer talent of jaedong and flash. yeah their first few games will probably be not very good, but once they figure stuff out (give it a week of legitimate 10 hour/day practice) they will be likely as good as most of the RO8, and give it a bit more time of them studying all the different possibilities, within a month they'd be competing for the top spots, though they would definitely not be GIVEN first. they are not THAT much better in mechanics to make their inexperience with the game be non-existant.
This is just pseudoscientific junk
First of all, you base this solely on thing like "talent" which is not scientific at all. Please, quality your arguments up.
Your analogy sucked. It's much more like the difference between a piano and a electronic keyboard, not a guitar. The guy you quoted are probably right.
Also how the hell do you propose to make a scientific argument over something like that? It is enough to be logical.
Electronic keyboard and piano are from totally different worlds. Worlds best electronic keyboardist would have very, very hard time to learn to play real piano.
On March 18 2011 17:10 Bleak wrote: The biggest problem with SC2 so far is that some units or unit combinations are just too strong and overshadow others. Because of this, people are hesitant to try other units in order to create new strategies. Ravens can be useful in every matchup, but we don't see much raven usage. Seeker Missile for example, can deal damage and force an enemy back in the least, yet almost noone uses it. Neural Parasite, same deal. Protoss gameplay is defined by Colossus alone. Such a boring unit.
So your biggest problem with SC2 is....the untapped potential? It's a good problem to have.
There are plenty of builds and unit combinations in BW that make sense logically but simply don't work because of the metagame, or because another build works better. I think the official strategy guide mentions that zerg should watch out for a firebat rush. Not on it's face absurd. Firebats counter Zerglings, after all, and they do a lot of damage.
In SC1 TvT, tank/vulture kind of dominates. You don't see players going bio TvT (or TvP, for that matter, because Reavers gigglestomp bio pretty hard, and reaver harass comes early). You don't see players, off the top of my head, getting Wraith/Tank/Marine with a Science Vessel or three. There's a vague logic to that composition: Science vessels see mines, and wraiths pwn vultures and tanks (which can't shoot up!), letting your own tanks take a good position, and having marines as a mineral sink for harassment or somesuch. You can even get cloak to deal with goliaths or what have you (or use defensive matrix!). That's a build. It's kind of cool. It has a logic to it. There's nothing about it that's obviously stupid in the 30 seconds I spent thinking about it. You don't see it. Why? I'm sure one of the BW pros in the thread can answer better than I can, but it boils down to Tank/Vulture is better. (Or I'm the Starcraft Whisperer and this build is actually awesome. I doubt that, though).
Eventually, there's going to be a "standard" build. We're already seeing builds fall to the wayside. Thor Rushes are auto-lose to DT, so they're falling out of favor. More builds will follow.
Starcraft 2 is mainly a sport of mind and basketball/football are games of team synergy and physical preparation. A TEAM of players that are considered the best are likely to be the best, i.e a team formed of MC,July,FruitDealer and MVP will likely beat Rainbow,huk,jinro and marine king if each of them play each of them but when they are "alone" 1 of them can losse while only the other 3 win. Even more, since there is not team synergy and physical part of SC2 it is way easier for an "unknown" player to rise up then in other sports. Most of the good players are still up there shiting on the opponents in 80% of the games. On the ladder they do not play a lot so expect them to have WLR around 70% or so but in GSL there are ppl over 90% i believe or at least over 80%.
Really glad that someone posted this. I've actually been thinking about this for a while, but couldn't find the right way to articulate it.
It honestly does seem that it is way harder to remain a consistent player in sc2. Of course that may be due to the youth of the game, but I think its because of maps.
They've been reduced in size at least by 50% in comparison to the maps played in BW tournaments, which makes it astronomically more difficult to remain consistent, because of how many different builds you have to be ready for.
Long distances/multiple spawn locations in BW meant that players eventually got down to a number of safe builds that almost everyone would do in a typical game. This meant that every race would FE every game (there was still cheese, but it was quite rare and not nearly as numerous in amount of different cheeses) and would allow for very stable games, where players would take many bases and have large micro wars.
If you look at SC2, due to the short distances between players and generally less 4-spawn location maps, you have to be ready every single game for 10+ different builds. Your opponent could banshee cheese, Proxy Gateway, do a Raven all-in, do a fast expand, do a void ray build, do a roach rush etc etc etc. This makes it very difficult for players to remain consistent, because you can't just do 1 safe build every game.
MVP is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. In his games vs his first toss opponent in the up&down matches, MVP opens with an economical/tech build. Now, if you look at it from a BW standpoint, this is a typical safe opening. In SC2 however, there are so many different builds that could instantly crush it (which is what happened).
Changing map size to mimic BW would be the most important change to make SC2 more consistent.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
Notably, MVP's macro in BW wasn't exactly top tier and JulyZerg's age of greatness was pretty long past when he moved on to SC2; he'd been a coach for a while, I believe, and wasn't really dominating when it come to micro or macro at the time. And I'm sorry but Boxer's prime is long past when it comes to mechanics. Once he joined Air Force he could be more or less counted out of serious competition.
My point here is that you can't use these ex-BW players as good examples of what should be "perfect" SC2 players because they're ex-BW players for a reason: they passed their BW prime and saw a good opportunity in SC2. I have no doubt that if we saw Jaedong or Flash in SC2 they would have better rax timing, better larva inject, and better mule drop timing than any of these three and would perform better as a result.
On the other hand, MKP's marine splitting is something to be in awe of. ogsMC's timing attacks are amazing and show a great grasp of the game. Jinro has fantastic macro and a great game sense. I love all these players because they've taken what they learned from BW and applied to SC2 in ways other people just don't.
There is no way for to be sure, that Jaedong or Flash would be better in mechanics than current starcraft 2 professionals.
The game is DIFFERENT, they will have very, very hard time to get a grasp of SC2 mechanics. Flash and Jaedong are good at BROOD WAR, because they have practiced BROOD WAR.
Its not like I could play guitar if I know how to play piano.
Brood war may be harder, but it is still DIFFERENT game.
You'll notice I did specify areas where Jaedong and Flash would be better. Both of them have absolutely fantastic ability to perform tasks robotically and repeatedly at specific time intervals; Flash is occasionally called a machine for just that reason. They may not immediately adapt to SC2 strategies and unit mechanics, but I'd be surprised if Flash ever dropped a mule with over 55 energy or Jaedong missed an inject.
You didn't try getting through to us. You just made a bunch of statements that can't be proven or disproven. I don't want to wait years for SC2 to finally bring in some units that are fun to use.
No crap they can't be proven or disproven. That's the point. We don't know. The metagame plays completely different than it did two months ago. The metagame is still evolving. It's too early to figure that out. I don't know where it's going to end up. Neither do you. I'm completely open to the idea that the game can't be salvaged in its current state. It's very possible. You're not open to that. And if you aren't, I don't know why you guys would subject yourself to this whining and moaning if Brood War is the consummate real-time strategy game and you have it sitting on your shelf.
It doesn't require theory-craft to show that things like colossi drops with phase prisms are pointless. TLO did it in BETA, nobody does it anymore. However when Rainbow started using reaver drops, 8 years later, people are still doing it.
I remember when people said the exact same thing about the changes to the Warcraft III Blademaster when they were implemented in two separate patches in 2004. Everyone said the Blademaster was fundamentally useless because you could cast Death Coil and Frost Nova on it and it would go away, and the buffs that made it impossible to punish a Wind-Walking Blademaster for being too aggressive were pointless. Nobody realized that you could now simply use the thing to harass and pester players all across the map instead of using it as a damage-per-second machine in battles. It took three years for people to figure that out. The changes were made in 2004 and Orcs didn't begin consistently winning tournaments until 2007. That is, people got better at the game and figured out different ways to play the units. If you don't think that will happen with the current crowd of Starcraft II units, put the game away and go play something else until Blizzard fixes it.
EPT
