On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
On March 18 2011 04:31 shwick wrote: No I'm 100% correct you're 100% wrong. That make sense to you?
Nowhere did the OP say he wanted time to not factor in at all.
On March 18 2011 04:28 dogmeatstew wrote:
On March 18 2011 04:21 shwick wrote:
On March 17 2011 10:15 IdrA wrote:
On March 17 2011 10:11 tarath wrote: Hey guys, I had a great idea!
I think chess would be a better strategy game if you had to beat up mike tyson to move a piece. If he bites off both of your ears you just auto lose. Then instead of having to focus on strategic play and reacting to your opponent the true "skill" players with fast hands, big muscles, and 3 ears would start dominating like they should.
Chess is just way to volatile, but if only people who can beat up mike tyson can move their pieces, well problem solved! Its not like master strategists will ever dominate the sport on their own.
shut up chess is a pure strategy game, that is its genre starcraft and starcraft 2 are real time strategy games. that means how fast you can do stuff is, by definition, part of the skillset required to play them.
LOL Idra bm!
I think in this instance this qualifies as Idra win. He's completely 100% correct, if you play a game with "Real Time" in its genre title and expect time not to factor in then you need to re-examine why you never made it out 7th grade.
To continue this jovial exchange, I'm 100% sure you were either unable to successfully click the "show imbeded quote" button or didn't have the attention span to read the contents therein. Nowhere in the quoted text is the OP directly referenced.
So wait, if I post another 9 times will I eventually convince you that you're wrong?
Just kidding, really.
Err, @other person who quoted me...
I agree that there's a lot of emphasis on mechanics in starcraft but it's much less so that in BW. Realistically I like the volatility that's caused by mechanical errors costing you the game, this is exactly what makes the game fun and a spectator sport, I don't know if you've ever watched chess but it's probably less exciting that watching paint dry.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
Early games like this. You don't need a replay function to make a vod.
On March 16 2011 20:54 andrewwiggin wrote: Players are volatile. THAT'S easier to argue than what you're saying. And truer too.
This.
Plus the fact that the game is still new (heck, there are still some very drastic buffs and nerfs going on in the patch changes), and so we shouldn't jump the gun and expect to see 20 players to stay in the Top 20 spots for SC2.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
On March 17 2011 19:04 Rashid wrote: People who say the harder mechanics of Brood War is better than SC2 doesn't realize the irony that Starcraft itself was a huge step up in terms of friendly user interface back in it's day. If you thought Brood War mechanics were hard, you've never played the early CnC games like Red Alert 1&2 and Tiberium Dawn/Sun, or the Myth series who have pretty horrible UI compared to Broodwar. I mean seriously, you cant even ATTACK MOVE in the early CnC games, wtf. You think your 2D movement on an isometric map in Broodwar is hardcore? Then go and play Homeworld and shit yourselves actually trying to navigate your units through 3D space.
Seriously, if people think that having harder mechanics makes a game more fun to watch and play, then maybe Blizz should make a few changes in HotS; disable control groups or even group select so that you can only select and move one unit at a time. And you need to type a command to use special abilities instead of clicking on an icon or using shortcut keys. And no there wont be any kind of vocal warning that your base, units or probes, are under attack, because all those stuff are for newbs. Instead of just minerals and gas, you'll have 8 more resources that you need to worry about such as Oil, Coal, Wood, Gold, Rock, Plutonium, etc. Make that game, and see how many people would appreciate having harder mechanics.
Yeah I played warcraft 1 a few times, it was pretty dope but you had to bandbox by holding control and could only move 4 units at a time.
I also played C&C Red Alert a lot (before I moved on to AoE 2). Imo the biggest problem with that was you couldn't select which buildings would build units, you just had this tab on the right which you would spam every half a second.
I still think the UI of SC2 is not better than BW. Its terrible, in fact. Buttons popping up everywhere, control groups accidentally being reset, units moving in balls, clunky units that you can't control the way you want (wraith micro vs viking micro). People overestimate how good SC2 UI/AI is in comparison to BW, it really isn't that much better.
On March 17 2011 19:07 Ribbon wrote: What's going to be impressive in SC2 isn't what was impressive in BW. It's what was unimaginable in BW. All those APM that would've been spent clicking buildings are just waiting for a use. The game has been improving kind a bit. It's still got a long way to go. One year from now, someone as good as Idra or MVP is now will be considered a total scrub for not doing Viking transform micro or whatever absurd idea is just waiting to be discovered.
And if there isn't one in the game, we'll make one. Relax.
When the games stop getting better every season, maybe then you can start the doomsaying.
See that's a huge misconception. My APM was 250-300 in BW but its only 150 in SC2. Its not like I suddenly have 150 APM free now, it actually makes no difference. My multi-pronged attacks are as effective in BW as they were in SC2. My micro is as good as it was in BW as in SC2. My APM is lower because I just have less shit to do.
The speed you have when doing these tasks actually have little impact on how well you can do other tasks. JulyZerg peaked 818 APM, but you don't see him controlling zerglings individually in SC2.
What will allow players to create more impressive micro has nothing to do with freeing apm. If you want impressive micro, make the units micro-able, which BW had a lot of, and SC2 doesn't. Also simply because of the "freeing up of apm" by making the mechanics easier, you are actually creating the opposite effect.
Units are so weak on their own now that there's much less point in doing harass based play, hellions are strong only in numbers, colossi strong only in numbers, templar strong only in numbers. In BW 1 speed vulture could take out infinite speed lings, 1 probe could scout a base till spire tech, 1 defiler could completely turn an almost complete defeat into a solid victory.
In regards to the OP's question, even the top players don't think there will be bonjwa's like there were in BW. There is simply not enough to differentiate the top players, Jaedong had his mutas and quick thinking, Flash had his impeccable macro and decision making, Bisu had his multitask and ridiculous probe control. Note that all the great players of BW had a strong relation to the "terrible UI" that BW has.
Even with all the free apm in the world, the only thing close SC2 can get is MKP's marines, and you think that's awesome. Well imagine how awesome BW is because nearly every player has something completely distinct about them like MKP does in SC2. It was like this since early competition BW, it didn't take 10 years, and keep in mind BW evolution was a lot slower than SC2.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote: See that's a huge misconception. My APM was 250-300 in BW but its only 150 in SC2. Its not like I suddenly have 150 APM free now, it actually makes no difference. My multi-pronged attacks are as effective in BW as they were in SC2. My micro is as good as it was in BW as in SC2. My APM is lower because I just have less shit to do.
I'm high platinum. Hey, you're a little better than me! We're close enough in rank that I could probably take a game off you in a best of seven, but you're certainly a bit more skilled. Nevertheless, I bet you 20 bucks that if you uploaded a replay pack, I could see plenty of things to spend your APM on. Even if you are Terran ^_^.
And anyway, if there's nothing to do with your APM, isn't add new features like better spells or something a more fun way of fixing that problem that making players jump through hoops? Of all the possible solutions to the "low skill cap" issue you claim, why do you consistently insist of the most boring?
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote: See that's a huge misconception. My APM was 250-300 in BW but its only 150 in SC2. Its not like I suddenly have 150 APM free now, it actually makes no difference. My multi-pronged attacks are as effective in BW as they were in SC2. My micro is as good as it was in BW as in SC2. My APM is lower because I just have less shit to do.
I'm high platinum. Hey, you're a little better than me! We're close enough in rank that I could probably take a game off you in a best of seven, but you're certainly a bit more skilled. Nevertheless, I bet you 20 bucks that if you uploaded a replay pack, I could see plenty of things to spend your APM on. Even if you are Terran ^_^.
And anyway, if there's nothing to do with your APM, isn't add new features like better spells or something a more fun way of fixing that problem that making players jump through hoops? Of all the possible solutions to the "low skill cap" issue you claim, why do you consistently insist of the most boring?
SluggaSlamoo is my NA account, I regularly custom against 3k masters players and beat them on SEA and NA. I don't ladder a lot, and I usually spend my ladder doing gimmicky strategies (I once did a 15CC into mech and won against the top zerg in my division (before masters was out), hence the low win-rate. In short, I don't give a damn about ladder, partly due to the poor map pool.
I've just started uploading Vods on my youtube channel, you can check it out there if you want (sluggaslamoo). All of the players I vs are 3k masters or higher, I include losses as well so its not like they are fluke wins or anything. As the filesizes are huge I haven't been uploading regularly, Ill be uploading more often soon.
As for your last point, it still goes into what I said earlier. You can't really have powerful spells or micro intensive spells because with smart-casting they would be too powerful. Just look at all the QQ caused by forcefield, now imagine if Starcraft 2 had defilers, or ravens had irradiate.
I am not advocating the removal of MBS or anything like that. I'm just saying that the alternatives (or non-alternatives) posed by Starcraft 2 are a lot worse than just having the old mechanics back. I am just pro-BW mechanics, and trying to tell people why BW players like it so much, and I am explaining why the BW mechanics are still superior to SC2 and how they balanced the game.
Basically if Blizzard wants to create a spectator sport, something needs to be done to make the skill ceiling higher. The BW mechanics does this in a very effective way, I wouldn't mind if this meant just removing smart-casting so spells could be more powerful, or implementing units that required control like the reaver and replacing the colossus.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
Actually a big chunk of the best players know when to roll the dice on build order luck even today in BW. Jaedong has 6pooled more than once in a clutch situation to get a build order win. This happens a lot in ZvZ but even so, things like proxies and cheese were what made Boxer famous and also what launched Flash's career.
Im not saying BW wins don't happen.
Then what are you saying? I can't think of more than a handful of build order wins resulting from standard builds in SC2, and most of those are in mirrors like in ZvZ in BW. Maybe cloaked banshees versus toss? But even then, if they scout and react appropriately they should be able to repel the assault. I mean, there are outliers, but those existed in BW too; 9pool versus 14 CC, for example, was Flash's bane for a long time.
It is hard to be consistent at starcraft 2 to be honest. When i'm laddering and I get a nice winstreak, I don't even notice it myself but I get a bit complacent. I think this might have been the case for MVP, every1 hyped him so hard, he might have actually started thinking he was better then every1 else and practiced a bit less serious. I think it's a good thing the big names are losing, it means they need too practice harder and also that other players are improving. Off course I hope they will start winning again, but losing isn't a bad thing aslong as you can improve.
Few more GSL's and we have a lot better stats anyway, in 3-4 GSL's we will see who is consistent and who isn't. Also consistent players don't have to win a GSL I'm more impressed by a player that stays in code S for almost every season but reaches like ro16-r08 every season then a player that wins a GSL but then just can't get his game together anymore
On March 17 2011 19:07 Ribbon wrote: What's going to be impressive in SC2 isn't what was impressive in BW. It's what was unimaginable in BW. All those APM that would've been spent clicking buildings are just waiting for a use. The game has been improving kind a bit. It's still got a long way to go. One year from now, someone as good as Idra or MVP is now will be considered a total scrub for not doing Viking transform micro or whatever absurd idea is just waiting to be discovered.
And if there isn't one in the game, we'll make one. Relax.
When the games stop getting better every season, maybe then you can start the doomsaying.
See that's a huge misconception. My APM was 250-300 in BW but its only 150 in SC2. Its not like I suddenly have 150 APM free now, it actually makes no difference. My multi-pronged attacks are as effective in BW as they were in SC2. My micro is as good as it was in BW as in SC2. My APM is lower because I just have less shit to do.
You realize SC2 APM by Blizzard's APM meter in replays is calculated differently than it was in BW?
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
Notably, MVP's macro in BW wasn't exactly top tier and JulyZerg's age of greatness was pretty long past when he moved on to SC2; he'd been a coach for a while, I believe, and wasn't really dominating when it come to micro or macro at the time. And I'm sorry but Boxer's prime is long past when it comes to mechanics. Once he joined Air Force he could be more or less counted out of serious competition.
My point here is that you can't use these ex-BW players as good examples of what should be "perfect" SC2 players because they're ex-BW players for a reason: they passed their BW prime and saw a good opportunity in SC2. I have no doubt that if we saw Jaedong or Flash in SC2 they would have better rax timing, better larva inject, and better mule drop timing than any of these three and would perform better as a result.
On the other hand, MKP's marine splitting is something to be in awe of. ogsMC's timing attacks are amazing and show a great grasp of the game. Jinro has fantastic macro and a great game sense. I love all these players because they've taken what they learned from BW and applied to SC2 in ways other people just don't.
I hate this argument that SC2 just needs time to develop. Seriously, people will allow a great game to be replaced just on the hope that this replacement game will develop into a game worthy of replacing the great game? Also, the logic is essentially flawed because in the beginning of BWs life, people literally had no understanding of RTS theory. SC2 isn't THAT different from BW, and you can't just say stuff like oh, people will begin to use overlord drops more. How do you know that?! I doubt pro players aren't even bothering to try stuff like "abusing the watchtowers".
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
The community knows what the fundamentals of Brood War are. They do not know what the fundamentals of Starcraft II are yet. We don't know what that added "free time" is going to convert to. We simply don't. Players are still adjusting to it. To quote the Battle.net forums: Relax. It's a beta. Give it time.
On March 18 2011 09:26 etheovermind wrote: I hate this argument that SC2 just needs time to develop. Seriously, people will allow a great game to be replaced just on the hope that this replacement game will develop into a game worthy of replacing the great game?
I'm campaigning for people who don't think Starcraft II will never be as good as Brood War to go and play Brood War. Your fight ain't with me on that. Blizzard is the company trying to "develop a game worthy of replacing the great game", the company that's been trying to do precisely with the help of their budget for legal affairs. Your fight is with them. As far as I can tell, TeamLiquid (and the greater Starcraft community) is attaching themselves to the Starcraft II gravy train as long as Blizzard seems interested in backing their money and confidence behind the sequel.
Also, the logic is essentially flawed because in the beginning of BWs life, people literally had no understanding of RTS theory. SC2 isn't THAT different from BW, and you can't just say stuff like oh, people will begin to use overlord drops more. How do you know that?! I doubt pro players aren't even bothering to try stuff like "abusing the watchtowers".
I know that because it happened with the two previous Blizzard games. The idea that Brood War players played the hell out of Brood War so they immediately discovered all the nuances of Starcraft II and solved the game eight months after its release is impossible. People will find new strategies. People will find new glitches. People will find new ways to play the game. Just as they have been continuously finding new strategies, glitches, and playstyles over the twelve months that this game has been live.
On March 17 2011 10:19 link0 wrote: This game is definitely more reliant on build order luck than BW. That is a problem.
Except for the fact that the only reason BW does NOT rely on 'build order luck' is because strategies have been so developed over such a long period of time. Players don't take risks they don't have to with their BO's and since all of the BO's are so fleshed out and well-known, you don't see the kind of 'I'm doing this build and I can't scout for X build that crushes me, so lets hope he doesn't do that build!!!". As more and more people become aware of the fine nuances of each and every possible build, some will become nonviable and things will become more and more 'standard'.
This isn't true. Watch early games. They definitely were NOT bo luck in BW anymore than it is BO luck now. What makes you say that it was like that?
What early games? Starcraft and Starcraft: Brood War didn't feature a replay function for the first three years of its life cycle.
That game was recorded after the replay function was released. That game was released in December 2001, three years and eight months after the release of Starcraft. The equivalent would be if I asked for a video from "the early days of Starcraft II" and you posted a video from March of 2014. Obviously, that isn't happening. Can you find me any tournament-level Starcraft or Brood War videos from 1998 or 1999, when people had little idea of how the game would eventually play? That's the time period Starcraft II is currently in: The period where people have little idea of how the game will eventually play. Listening to people act like they have Wings of Liberty "solved" is laughable.
SC2 players have 12 years of Starcraft knowledge on their belt buckle from the get go. The amount this accelerates the metagame is amazing. Simple concepts such as attacking while expanding, powering, economy management, harassment and so on and so forth were all learned from BW. What has taken SC1 players years to figure out SC2 players have used such former knowledge to apply it within months of the release.
I doubt WoL has fully been solved, but I also doubt it is NOT close to being completely "solved." The relatively limited options for races that aren't Terran, ridiculous to stop and limiting all ins, overpowered Protoss lategame propped up by the crutch that is a collosus, many underused and useless (or if they are used too much and it isn't a banshee/marauder/collosus: nerfed) units and shitty Zerg power overall all seem to be things that point to WoL simply being a lot more shallow than BW. That is what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void will (Hopefully) fix, unless Dustin Browder comes up with a cross between a reaper and a marauder that can shoot up that he really wants to put into the game.
Those twelve years of understanding how Brood War plays only applies in situations where Brood War and Starcraft II function similarly. There are places where Starcraft II plays differently. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of Watch Towers. Nobody's really learned how to take advantage of the increased mobility that comes from the unit selection cap. Players are still playing blind and still making mistakes when they now have all these available Actions Per Minute to waste on other things. The narrative that "Starcraft II is just a dumbed-down version of Brood War" is simply that. It's a narrative. By removing various mechanical requirements from the Starcraft series, there is a skill set lying somewhere in there that hasn't been fully recognized or utilized yet. When the game is no longer "Brood War players playing Starcraft II" and it's finally become "Starcraft II players playing Starcraft II", I'm willing to hear out any arguments that the game isn't good enough. Until then, we simply don't know. And we won't know if this current build of Starcraft II can hold out to years of scrutiny, because Blizzard's releasing those two expansion packs.
Right now, a lot of people on this forum sound like GameFAQs regulars. They sound like people who played a level for twenty minutes, died a couple of times, and then jumped on the forums to declare that "THIS ONE LEVEL IS IMPOSSIBEL!!!" And let's remember something: This forum was split over the reduction in mechanical skill between the two games. They said it would make the game too easy. Well, anybody who claimed that has no right to claim that anything in Starcraft II is "too hard". Zero. Those players have two options: Stop whining, or get better. I'd prefer both.
On March 18 2011 08:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It took a long time for competition BW to take off, e-sports wasn't even a word back then. Now we have $80,000 prize pools from almost the first day SC2 comes out, with players that have been playing pro-BW for at least 5 years. All the stuff we learned from BW is now injected into SC2, already. SC2 has already had its 10 years of evolution, derived from BW.
Most of what I wrote above applies to what you're saying. Starcraft II and Brood War are different games with different skill sets. And unless Starcraft II is truly and purely a "dumbed-down version of Brood War" (that is, removed Brood War skills without introducing a single new skill set or skill), then there is something out there the player base hasn't discovered yet. They should go find it.
Hmmm, I've always been careful about over-generalising and saying SC2 is easy, because of the argument stated above. Unfortunately many people haven't been.
Its not about skillsets or anything like that. Macro, micro, and strategy and the ability to execute all 3 are the fundamentals of traditional Real-Time Strategy, it was in Red Alert, it was in AoE, it is in Starcraft too.
Now when you reduce the players ability to "maximise return" on being good at these factors you reduce the ability for players to differentiate themselves. No one will ever "reach" the skill ceiling, not matter how low it is, but the lower the skill ceiling is, the harder it is for players to differentiate themselves.
Therefore when we say SC2 is a dumbed down version, it is because SC2 makes it easier to perfect the fundamentals of starcraft. And it makes it easier in all 3 aspects. Macro -> MBS, Micro -> Auto surround, auto clump, Strategy -> More A-move units, less diversity. This has the negative effect in the higher tiers of play and spectatorship.
And you can see this in the GSL. MVP's macro is nothing to be in awe of, JulyZerg now doesn't have the micro he was famous for, Boxer isn't producing amazing strategies like he used to even like his time on AirForce Ace (Basically the only way Veteran pro-gamers can actually still play in Proleague).
And like I said earlier, if this freeing up of apm actually made any difference, JulyZerg would be controlling all his lings individually. Ling control is not a new skillset in SC2, so I don't see how that argument has any effect on what I had to say earlier.
The community knows what the fundamentals of Brood War are. They do not know what the fundamentals of Starcraft II are yet. We don't know what that added "free time" is going to convert to. We simply don't. Players are still adjusting to it. To quote the Battle.net forums: Relax. It's a beta. Give it time.
EPT
