EPTOn March 18 2011 09:38 etheovermind wrote:
If its beta, why is there already a proscene?
If its beta, why is there already a proscene?
Because "money".
[Spoilers] Is SC2 too volatile ? - Page 24
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
Because "money". | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:53 Innovation wrote: Pretty sure you either have never played BW or are just trolling. There have been significant changes to base management/unit control mechanics from BW to SC2 that have been debated for well over a year. I was speaking directly to his claim that he wasn't talking about Multi-Building selection or 1-key army hotkey. If he's not bitching about one of those two things, then what else is there? BW had rally points for buildings. BW had shift-queuing, a-move, unit abilities and spell-casters. Every other complaint I can think of relates to the design of the units, and not their actual mechanics. What mechanics are you talking about? You can't just call someone a troll while completely ignoring the actual point that they're making (relevant to the discussion they are having with a specific person) and then not spell out your position. You seem to be arguing exactly the point that he is trying to claim is NOT being argued. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:20 TheTenthDoc wrote: Notably, MVP's macro in BW wasn't exactly top tier and JulyZerg's age of greatness was pretty long past when he moved on to SC2; he'd been a coach for a while, I believe, and wasn't really dominating when it come to micro or macro at the time. And I'm sorry but Boxer's prime is long past when it comes to mechanics. Once he joined Air Force he could be more or less counted out of serious competition. My point here is that you can't use these ex-BW players as good examples of what should be "perfect" SC2 players because they're ex-BW players for a reason: they passed their BW prime and saw a good opportunity in SC2. I have no doubt that if we saw Jaedong or Flash in SC2 they would have better rax timing, better larva inject, and better mule drop timing than any of these three and would perform better as a result. On the other hand, MKP's marine splitting is something to be in awe of. ogsMC's timing attacks are amazing and show a great grasp of the game. Jinro has fantastic macro and a great game sense. I love all these players because they've taken what they learned from BW and applied to SC2 in ways other people just don't. I don't think you understand, Boxer still produced amazing strategies even just before he retired. He's always been like that, it never changed, his ability to produce strategies has nothing to do with his mechanics. Why suddenly, has he stopped making beautiful strategies? obviously with easier mechanics, a brand new game, more interest, he should be making better strategies than he did in BW. But its just not happening, this is due to the so called "dumbing down" of units. MC's timings are nothing compared to Bests, killing tanks with immortals is like bleh, killing tanks with dragoons on the other hand ... see what I mean? Again "dumbing down" of units. Immortals beat tanks, and immortals beat tanks, and that's that, did I mention immortals beat tanks? MVP was an A-Teamer, and a mechanical player at that, I would expect his macro to be miles ahead of everyone. This is not the case, because the "dumbed down" mechanics are bringing everyone closer together. MKP's marine micro is nothing compared to Boxers or Nada's or July's micro in BW. Yes MKP is in his prime, so it should be fair to compare it to Boxer or Nada's or July's prime right. There's no point comparing them to the progamers of today, because someone will bring out the "give it 10 years" card. Anyway my point is there is no such thing as "free apm". The new mechanics will simply bring the worst and best players closer together, making it much harder to be the best. On March 18 2011 09:33 MichaelJLowell wrote: People will find new ways to play the game. Just as they have been continuously finding new strategies, glitches, and playstyles over the twelve months that this game has been live. For every glitch that someone finds, blizzard patches it. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:33 MichaelJLowell wrote: The community knows what the fundamentals of Brood War are. They do not know what the fundamentals of Starcraft II are yet. We don't know what that added "free time" is going to convert to. We simply don't. Players are still adjusting to it. To quote the Battle.net forums: Relax. It's a beta. Give it time. I'm campaigning for people who don't think Starcraft II will never be as good as Brood War to go and play Brood War. Your fight ain't with me on that. Blizzard is the company trying to "develop a game worthy of replacing the great game", the company that's been trying to do precisely with the help of their budget for legal affairs. Your fight is with them. As far as I can tell, TeamLiquid (and the greater Starcraft community) is attaching themselves to the Starcraft II gravy train as long as Blizzard seems interested in backing their money and confidence behind the sequel. I know that because it happened with the two previous Blizzard games. The idea that Brood War players played the hell out of Brood War so they immediately discovered all the nuances of Starcraft II and solved the game eight months after its release is impossible. People will find new strategies. People will find new glitches. People will find new ways to play the game. Just as they have been continuously finding new strategies, glitches, and playstyles over the twelve months that this game has been live. Edits for readability. Everytime i hear the phrase give it time i would like to bang my head against the wall. What's to add, blizzard basically patches every glitch that improves gameplay, adds excitement away in a drastic manner. Remember fazing on the Void Ray? Patched. Archon Toilet? Going to be patched. Vortex Force Fielding? Patched. There were more, but i already forgot them : / | ||
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frozt_
United States234 Posts
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:55 sluggaslamoo wrote: For every glitch that someone finds, blizzard patches it. They could have patched Muta-spreading and chose not to. That was the right move. On March 18 2011 09:58 Elefanto wrote: Everytime i hear the phrase give it time i would like to bang my head against the wall. Funny. Every time I watch Brood War players complain about a sequel they clearly don't enjoy and choose to play it anyway, I do the same thing. On March 18 2011 09:58 Elefanto wrote: Everytime i hear the phrase give it time i would like to bang my head against the wall. What's to add, blizzard basically patches every glitch that improves gameplay, adds excitement away in a drastic manner. Remember fazing on the Void Ray? Patched. Archon Toilet? Going to be patched. Vortex Force Fielding? Patched. There were more, but i already forgot them : / All of those should have been patched. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:33 MichaelJLowell wrote: I know that because it happened with the two previous Blizzard games. The idea that Brood War players played the hell out of Brood War so they immediately discovered all the nuances of Starcraft II and solved the game eight months after its release is impossible. People will find new strategies. People will find new glitches. People will find new ways to play the game. Just as they have been continuously finding new strategies, glitches, and playstyles over the twelve months that this game has been live. Edits for readability. The game will somehow fix itself in the future! So boring this is. I dunno how some of you are going to get it in your heads, a unit like the Marauder has NO potential for some unknown glitch or anything like you are attempting to suggest. What possible tricks could it do? Not to mention Blizzard has made it clear they patch anything unintended out of the game. So you won't find a new way to play it, you will play it how Blizzard intended pretty much. Strategies can't evolve forever when the mechanics are simple, the only reason BW keeps changing and finding new things is BECAUSE of the mechanics, not in spite of them. 2hatch muta came into popularity cause people had the extreme micro needed to do it, 2port wraith, sair reaver, arbiters, defilers, bio timings against Protoss, queen usage, the list goes on and on and on. The thing in common with all of these is, as people got better at the game they could actually attempt to use the more advanced units. In SC2 everything is well within everyones power to use. There's no need to have the questions that were constantly asked during BW like, 'Is sair/goon possible against Terran?' because anyone can now use any unit. And if you got 2% of all SC2 players in Masters playing 1v1 regularly you can be sure that strategies are going to be worked out quickly. Not to mention, innovation is harder because of less defenders advantage now. Means that being units short at certain parts of the game cause you tried something random means you just get run over and lose. That doesn't help either and i can't see why uphill shot misses didn't remain in the game. I'm sure this will be just glossed over though as people just rush to say 'Nuh Uh' and repeatedly tell everyone that the whole games gonna somehow evolve in time. I bet you right now if the game remained unpatched the current builds would simply be refined. The best Protoss builds in SC2 are the most obvious ones which are used now, the 'deathball' is clearly the most effective way to play. I reckon you could have every Starcaft player all play PvP for the next 10 years without finding anything significantly interesting to change it up, which is pretty sad. On March 18 2011 10:06 MichaelJLowell wrote: They could have patched Muta-spreading and chose not to. That was the right move. This doesn't make sense why would they patch the ability to spread your mutas out? | ||
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Antoniuss
Portugal26 Posts
On March 17 2011 19:00 Koshi wrote: The mechanics are easier. I agree, but please, the good players are far from perfect. FAR FROM PERFECT. The skill ceiling has not yet been touched. Idra you are so far from that ceiling, mc you are so far from that ceiling, Immvp you are so far from that ceiling, July you are so far from that ceiling. This man speaks the truth, i can´t be bothered to read even half of the comments in this thread. All the faults sc2 has it its big games and leagues, are 1000% player's fault, now that the maps are on its way to fixing. Toss death ball, a move? don´t attack it, try to split it attacking other places, use reinforcement paths correctly. More attacks through the map? Do it with a plan and metagame will shift to it. Micro? Every unit has its micro quirks - sc2 and bw. I hate the wow train of thought that plagues gaming (in general) forums and playerbase. Not mentioning the gut feeling i have 95% the users that come to whine into these forums do not even play the game, and they´re one more number on sc2 youtube video channels, that watch furiously every single match casted, only to pseudo theorycraft with 0 experience. So my opinion is this: take off the nostalgia glasses. I love BW but people that defend the game blindly like this have to wake up to the fact that, in less than a year, sc2 is shaping up so well. Something no game managed to do. Ever. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:06 MichaelJLowell wrote: They could have patched Muta-spreading and chose not to. That was the right move. Funny. Every time I watch Brood War players complain about a sequel they clearly don't enjoy and choose to play it anyway, I do the same thing. All of those should have been patched. 1. How is muta spreading a glitch? Viking flower on the other hand ... 2. I play both, BW with friends, SC2 with friends. However I expect the sequel that's goal is to be an e-sport to be more exciting than its predecessor. This is not the case. I believe many other BW players see it the same way, they are frustrated that the sequel doesn't actually improve the game. 3. Ok so you say in the future glitches will be found to make the game more exciting, except all of them should be patched. I don't get it. The worst part about all this is that the only exciting evolution to come out of sc2 is marine spreading. And now everyone makes it like because of marine micro, suddenly there is going to be a tonne of evolution in the future "HEY BUT WHAT ABOUT MARINE MICRO?!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH". Well sorry but that's the only thing people can come up with within 1 year and a hundred progamers playing 8 hours a day or more. BW had tonnes of stuff, including dare i say it, marine spreading. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:49 Nemireck wrote: I was speaking directly to his claim that he wasn't talking about Multi-Building selection or 1-key army hotkey. If he's not bitching about one of those two things, then what else is there? BW had rally points for buildings. BW had shift-queuing, a-move, unit abilities and spell-casters. Every other complaint I can think of relates to the design of the units, and not their actual mechanics. What mechanics are you talking about? You can't just call someone a troll while completely ignoring the actual point that they're making (relevant to the discussion they are having with a specific person) and then not spell out your position. You seem to be arguing exactly the point that he is trying to claim is NOT being argued. Smart-aiming, smart-flanking, automatic split of workers, smart-casting, etc... | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:12 Antoniuss wrote: So my opinion is this: take off the nostalgia glasses. I love BW but people that defend the game blindly like this have to wake up to the fact that, in less than a year, sc2 is shaping up so well. Something no game managed to do. Ever. That's an opinion we don't all agree with though, why can't you or others seem to accept that? | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
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kash2k
139 Posts
Mvp is your perfect example of young Korean boy with insane amount of practice who knows all his timings without thinking about them down to a second. But his game against Genius on new map made me think he is a freaking robot, as Artosis and Tastless pointed out. It was a worst possible map to do a this kind of timing attack on and even after he saw all the sentries he just gave away the game. But I bet after he plays this map another 100-300 times, he will become invincible. Or it is a mental thing he is going through. Anyway in SC2 you have to be on your toes all the time compare to BW, again because BW is more mechanical step by stepish and as long as you know the order/how to react and spam those keys fast enough you'll be way ahead of the mainstream. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:56 kash2k wrote: Anyway in SC2 you have to be on your toes all the time compare to BW, again because BW is more mechanical step by stepish and as long as you know the order/how to react and spam those keys fast enough you'll be way ahead of the mainstream. Why are people without a clue judging bw? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Stork for a progamer has sub-par mechanics, and his APM is pretty low, but he's regarded as the best PvTer to ever play BW. On the other hand, Bisu has amazing mechanics, and his PvT sucks. Now of course, you can flip these for Stork's PvZ and Bisu's PvZ, but the argument holds that Bisu doesn't understand PvT as well as Stork does. This has nothing to do with mechanics, since, if Bisu could rely on his mechanics in PvT alone he would be much better than Stork. This just isn't the case. Other examples exist, as well. Yes, you're going to have higher APM averages in Broodwar, and that's simply because the learning curve on the UI and the unit AI is much higher. However, in BW players don't magically win just because they have 300 APM. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:34 MichaelJLowell wrote: Alright, I tried getting through to you guys. I point out the potential for undiscovered nuances, you tell me "Nope, it can't be done." I point out that the game is new and new glitches and exploits may be found, "Nope, it can't be done." I suggest you keep looking for an alternative and try new things with new units, "Nope, it can't be done." I suggest that the skill level will keep improving and thus the strategies will keep evolving, "Nope, it's been solved. It can't be done." Go make all the excuses you want, I'm tired of hearing excuses. That's all you're making. Starcraft II doesn't play exactly like Brood War and you're going to have to adjust. Get over it. Colossis are boring, "give it time". Units can't be microed, "give it time". etc How about make the game better now? You didn't try getting through to us. You just made a bunch of statements that can't be proven or disproven. I don't want to wait years for SC2 to finally bring in some units that are fun to use. It doesn't require theory-craft to show that things like colossi drops with phase prisms are pointless. TLO did it in BETA, nobody does it anymore. However when Rainbow started using reaver drops, 8 years later, people are still doing it. Its because of the way units are designed, and its just so easy to see why. Infestors are useless on their own, 1 defiler can change an almost certain loss into a certain victory. 1 reaver can take out 50 hydras, or win a game. Hell Snows reaver took out 30 hydras without a shuttle, just by moving its slow ass back and forth, same micro as the colossus yet 10000x more exciting. You don't need to think about it, its just in the design. Do you really think someone can take out whole zerg armies with a single colossus moving back and forth??? Ill give it 3 years, but it will never happen. On March 18 2011 10:56 kash2k wrote: There is a difference between decision making for situations you trained(MOST Korean progamers) and unexpected situations(True Champions). Mvp is your perfect example of young Korean boy with insane amount of practice who knows all his timings without thinking about them down to a second. But his game against Genius on new map made me think he is a freaking robot, as Artosis and Tastless pointed out. It was a worst possible map to do a this kind of timing attack on and even after he saw all the sentries he just gave away the game. But I bet after he plays this map another 100-300 times, he will become invincible. Or it is a mental thing he is going through. Anyway in SC2 you have to be on your toes all the time compare to BW, again because BW is more mechanical step by stepish and as long as you know the order/how to react and spam those keys fast enough you'll be way ahead of the mainstream. MVP was never great in BW either, for the exact same reason. Action has one of the highest APMs at the moment, and is not even close to being the best player. The side-effects of BW's mechanics was that more bases meant more difficult management, not more APM means better player. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:10 sluggaslamoo wrote: As for your last point, it still goes into what I said earlier. You can't really have powerful spells or micro intensive spells because with smart-casting they would be too powerful. Just look at all the QQ caused by forcefield, now imagine if Starcraft 2 had defilers, or ravens had irradiate. People are going to QQ no matter what you do. Spells are too strong! Spells are too weak! Why doesn't Blizzard listen to the community more! The spells wouldn't be too strong if they could be microed against. I am not advocating the removal of MBS or anything like that. I'm just saying that the alternatives (or non-alternatives) posed by Starcraft 2 are a lot worse than just having the old mechanics back. I am just pro-BW mechanics, and trying to tell people why BW players like it so much, and I am explaining why the BW mechanics are still superior to SC2 and how they balanced the game. No, they're not. Yes, BW's interface raised the skill cap because you had to wrestle with it so much. Yes, the spells were balanced because it was so hard to use them. These are happy side effects of the interface being terrible. The interface is still terrible. If your solution to balancing a game is preventing people from playing it, something has gone terribly wrong. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with making the game reward skill better. Doing so in a way that's annoying, unfun, and uninteresting to watch just because some OTHER game did it is objectionable. Basically if Blizzard wants to create a spectator sport, something needs to be done to make the skill ceiling higher. The BW mechanics does this in a very effective way, I wouldn't mind if this meant just removing smart-casting so spells could be more powerful, or implementing units that required control like the reaver and replacing the colossus. Honestly, why not just make spells more powerful and keep smart-casting? That rewards skill: It rewards the guy who's not clumping up his army. Why do we keep having to look backwards? Why is there not even an attempt to make SC2 a better game than Brood War? My issue is more about game design than anything. The idea of purposely making a game less fun for the sole purpose of making it harder is repellent to me. Even if you think the game doesn't have enough depth to allow bonjwas, the solution should be to add more depth, not to gimp everyone with boring, tedious crap. | ||
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Kallo
United States11 Posts
It isn't like BW where someone would "win" a battle, but both players would be so crippled food-wise (The winner of the battle less so) that they wouldn't be able to straight up kill the opponent with the left over units. They would have to take there advantage and use it to expand. And the loser of a big battle would spend his time harassing and trying to claw his way back into the game through superior play. SC2 just feels like when armies engage in battle... The loser of the battle loses EVERYTHING, while the winner loses like... 20-30 food max? For example, in PvZ, a 200/200 food battle between the toss and zerg usually winds up with zerg losing everything and the toss losing like 30 food. TvZ feels the same way but it doesn't feel quite as bad, the terran might lose like 50 food while the zerg still loses everything. And TvP feels like toss can lose so easily in the early game to the insane bio DPS, but in the late game they RAPE terran with colossus and HT... again, at no point in the match do the armies TRADE EVENLY!!! | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On March 18 2011 12:14 Ribbon wrote: People are going to QQ no matter what you do. Spells are too strong! Spells are too weak! Why doesn't Blizzard listen to the community more! The spells wouldn't be too strong if they could be microed against. No, they're not. Yes, BW's interface raised the skill cap because you had to wrestle with it so much. Yes, the spells were balanced because it was so hard to use them. These are happy side effects of the interface being terrible. The interface is still terrible. If your solution to balancing a game is preventing people from playing it, something has gone terribly wrong. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with making the game reward skill better. Doing so in a way that's annoying, unfun, and uninteresting to watch just because some OTHER game did it is objectionable. Honestly, why not just make spells more powerful and keep smart-casting? That rewards skill: It rewards the guy who's not clumping up his army. Why do we keep having to look backwards? Why is there not even an attempt to make SC2 a better game than Brood War? My issue is more about game design than anything. The idea of purposely making a game less fun for the sole purpose of making it harder is repellent to me. Even if you think the game doesn't have enough depth to allow bonjwas, the solution should be to add more depth, not to gimp everyone with boring, tedious crap. Yeah except the people that QQ most are the low level players. I never saw psi-storms that much if at all on D-/E ICCUP, you could win a lot of protoss games without them at that level actually. The QQ balance complaints about psi-storm were basically non-existent in comparison to how much people complained about spells on SC2. The forcefield nerf did nothing to make ultras more viable, no matter how ridiculous ultras sound statistics wise. The fix is simple, change the unit AI so they don't move in big balls, this is the fix, nothing else needs to be done. Army clumping is actually taking the game a step back, it has nothing to do with better pathing, it's just an inherent feature of badly implemented flocking AI, and is a complete gimmick that ruins RTS. DoW has flocking AI to an extent, and so does Company of Heroes, however the units use the flocking AI correctly and don't move in stupid big clumps. (I think I should publish another article to extend my previous one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171). I find myself wrestling more with SC2 units and UI than I do with BroodWar. Wrestle with the UI is an over-statement. There's no "wrestling". Its not tedious crap either, I thoroughly enjoyed sending workers to mine, clicking on buildings individually and individually telling each unit to cast. This is shared amongst a lot of BW players. Telling units to attack or dumb dragoons/goliaths wasn't even an issue for me, it really isn't that bad. I never really said Blizzard should implement these, but to address the OP's question, the current state of the game shows that in the upper-tiers the game would benefit from these BW features. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 18 2011 12:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: Yeah except the people that QQ most are the low level players. I never saw psi-storms that much if at all on D-/E ICCUP, you could win a lot of protoss games without them at that level actually. The QQ balance complaints about psi-storm were basically non-existent in comparison to how much people complained about spells on SC2. People QQing about something being imbalanced has next-to-nothing to do with whether it's actually imbalanced. Suggesting BW is imba is heretical. Until SC2 reaches that point, no one will ever lose because they didn't play as well. It'll be because the game is bullshit OMG. I find myself wrestling more with SC2 units and UI than I do with BroodWar. How come wrestling with unit control is bullshit while wrestling with getting all your buildings making units is skill? Wrestle with the UI is an over-statement. There's no "wrestling". Its not tedious crap either, I thoroughly enjoyed sending workers to mine, clicking on buildings individually and individually telling each unit to cast. This is shared amongst a lot of BW players. Telling units to attack or dumb dragoons/goliaths wasn't even an issue for me, it really isn't that bad. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I never really said Blizzard should implement these, but to address the OP's question, the current state of the game shows that in the upper-tiers the game would benefit from these BW features. Arguably. The arguments in favor are that 1. It's harder 2. Brood War did it. Those aren't good arguments. There are things that can be harder, that are also more interesting to watch. There's no thought or strategy to selecting all your raxen every 30 seconds. It's like rocks, actually. It's something you have to deal with to get to the good stuff. It's not the best way to increase the skill cap. The reason people like it was because they're already good at it from Brood War. That's not a good reason, sorry. SC2 isn't BW, and is shouldn't be. Brood War is already pretty good at being Brood War. | ||
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