Now, I've been playing since late beta and I'm more and more puzzled with this: What's the purpose of Zerg buildings exploding into broodlings? What's the purpose?
I know. The obvious answer would be: If your building is dying, you're most likely under attack, so they're for defense. My thought on defense: + Show Spoiler +
This is nowhere near as strong as a PF which a terran will have to pay a pretty penny to get (550/150) but this just makes me think if the broodlings are actually implemented in the price of e.g. a hatchery? I've actually seen (and even played) games where a 2raxx-bunker push was killed off the second the hatch in the natural was killed and broodlings popped along with some lings. So they will work in the super early game - but even here only in some scenarios
Later in the game however, they are utterly useless (not counting brood lords ofc). I know they are affected by upgrades, but this really doesn't make them a viable defense unit. A good example is the ultralish cavern. If you get this - you will get it for late game purposes. How will 6 broodlings EVER affect the game? It's not even enough to stop a drop (even slightly).
Well, being (only) 22yo I only played some SC1 with my bro offline and in 98 I was 9yo, so my english was nowhere near good enough to actually comprehend anything from the sc1 lore. So I have no idea if lore has something to do with this - but as far as I can tell broodlings didn't come out of Z buildings in sc1/bw... So why add this feature?
I hope you wont response with answers like: Broodlings are for cheese. The proxy hatch-cancel --> evo --> brooling/ling rush. http://www.netrigs.net/2011/01/double-proxy-evolution-chamber-rush/ I know it's possible but that's not REALLY the intention of the unit (at least I dont think so?)
Do broodlings (popping out of destroyed buildings) serve ANY real purpose besides stopped fast pools/2raxx rush (for the record it's not good against any protoss cheese). Do you actually pay for your broodlings as the T also pays for extra defense in a planetary? Should lategame buildings either NOT make broodlings - or have an option to cut (let's just say (as this is not a balance issue)) 25minerals off the cost of the building - in return you dont get broodlings? Why are broodlings even there?
Poll: What purpose does the broodling serve?
For being cute good-for-nothing units (Nothing) (198)
74%
Making baseraces more viable for Z (38)
14%
To replace the lost drone (you used to make the building) (14)
5%
For defending stimmed bio (13)
5%
Making it slightly more safe to fast expand (6)
2%
269 total votes
Your vote: What purpose does the broodling serve?
(Vote): Making it slightly more safe to fast expand (Vote): Making baseraces more viable for Z (Vote): To replace the lost drone (you used to make the building) (Vote): For defending stimmed bio (Vote): For being cute good-for-nothing units (Nothing)
For the record - I played terran from platinum all the way to masters league - where I've changed to protoss. So this is from a guy who've played very very little 1v1 Z
They're more customary than anything now. At very early stages of the game they can be useful, sure, but if a Zerg is losing buildings at that stage they're the one with bigger problems. I guess they also force Terran to pick their dropped units after they snipe a structure too.
Overall though, it just seems like an interesting Zerg feature that doesn't really change gameplay much.
The Zerg defensive structures are the Spine and Spore Crawler. They don't actually rely on Broodlings, since that would require you to have buildings die.
On March 14 2011 20:54 hmunkey wrote: They're more customary than anything now. At very early stages of the game they can be useful, sure, but if a Zerg is losing buildings at that stage they're the one with bigger problems. I guess they also force Terran to pick their dropped units after they snipe a structure too.
Overall though, it just seems like an interesting Zerg feature that doesn't really change gameplay much.
if its an interesting idea but doesnt change the gameplay then maybe they should evolve this idea so it actually becomes interesting and changes the gameplay :p as it is now its just like, fuck i lost a tech building, and 6 broodlings spawn there to be cute for a few seconds and then vanish from the game. if its just for lore then i guess its fine right now but if anyone actually thinks its a factor where u say "ok if i kill this tech buildings, i have to remember broodlings spawn from it and that might backfire". only time that thought even cross my mind is in zvz base races with ling baneling wars and like once in a zvp it crossed my mind being dt rushed he killed the tech building and i could surround it with broodlings and the queen to add the extra damage. but to be fair thats like one in time a million times that happens where the broodlings spawned actually changes something
Broodlings coming from destroyed buildings should stay alive longer to pose any sort of viable defensive help. 99% of the time they don't even get a single hit in and die on their way to the first enemy unit.
I think it's a holdover from Dustin Browder's days working for the Command and Conquer franchise.
In C&C games, destroyed or sold buildings usually spawn some leftover Riflemen and sometimes engineers or civilians. It had been a feature of all C&C games since the first Command and Conquer, and I'm not surprised to see it in SC2.
Heck, the Thor is analogous to the Mammoth Tank and the Banshee is an exact replica of the GDI Orca.
i don't know.. i find it does make a difference actually, it's pretty strong early on as you mentioned, and later on in the heat of battle, because broodlings are fast and there are several of them, as they rush toward terran armies they do draw a few tank shots and quite often some friendly fire splash on nearby marines.
and i dunno about not being enough to stop a drop, it's certainly enough to delay a dropship of marines/marauders for a short while at least? that's what i find anyway when i try to drop. you have to scoot back for a while or quickly load up the medivac and it buys time for zerg defense to come in.
overall, like you mentioned, not a huge game-changer out of the early game. just don't think too much about it, haha! it's just one of the little racial gimmicks to add flavour and variety to the game.
While they don't serve any major role in the game, broodlings are helpful in situation of very early pressure, they help a ton when you want to get a surround/good flanking. The thing is they come into play only when you're kind of fucked up, i.e. you're seeing your hatch going down for sure so better pull back your glings, wait for the hatch to get killed and then try to flank with your zerglings from the back while broodlings are assaulting the front. This is a cute move but when you're doing it you're often already in a bad spot.
Overall this is not very useful but add a little bit to zerg's gameplay and has drive some players to be very creative with them, but yes, besides early games they have little purpose.
i honestly have no idea but very very late game i guess getting a few extra evos for defence would be funny but spines will always be better so really nothing
On March 14 2011 20:54 hmunkey wrote: They're more customary than anything now. At very early stages of the game they can be useful, sure, but if a Zerg is losing buildings at that stage they're the one with bigger problems. I guess they also force Terran to pick their dropped units after they snipe a structure too.
Overall though, it just seems like an interesting Zerg feature that doesn't really change gameplay much.
if its an interesting idea but doesnt change the gameplay then maybe they should evolve this idea so it actually becomes interesting and changes the gameplay :p as it is now its just like, fuck i lost a tech building, and 6 broodlings spawn there to be cute for a few seconds and then vanish from the game. if its just for lore then i guess its fine right now but if anyone actually thinks its a factor where u say "ok if i kill this tech buildings, i have to remember broodlings spawn from it and that might backfire". only time that thought even cross my mind is in zvz base races with ling baneling wars and like once in a zvp it crossed my mind being dt rushed he killed the tech building and i could surround it with broodlings and the queen to add the extra damage. but to be fair thats like one in time a million times that happens where the broodlings spawned actually changes something
If you saw Up/Down matches today MarineKingPrime actually was killing off Leenocks natural with a marine rush, but as he saw eggs (with lings) being morphed he actually waited killing the hatch untill the lings popped and were killed - as else he should deal with lings and broods. But still, I can't see how this should actually count as a defense.
And nobody adressed my question around if you're actually "paying" for the broods as extra defense?
A common technique in ZvZ is to block the opponents gas with an evolution chamber. Rush for ling speed and just when/if the opponent takes down the evo chamber you attack with your speedlings + broodlings. I have never seen it in high level games, but in high, 2800+, Diamond it is quite common. If you don't go for the ling rush you can kill 1 drone with micro when he takes you evo chamber down at a later stage.
On March 14 2011 20:52 Mentalizor wrote: I'm not looking for this: I hope you wont response with answers like: Broodlings are for cheese.
And you replied this:
On March 14 2011 21:19 Tef wrote: A common technique in ZvZ is to block the opponents gas with an evolution chamber. Rush for ling speed and just when/if the opponent takes down the evo chamber you attack with your speedlings + broodlings. I have never seen it in high level games, but in high, 2800+, Diamond it is quite common. If you don't go for the ling rush you can kill 1 drone with micro when he takes you evo chamber down at a later stage.
Also, I think Broodlings can be useful in rare, clutch situations by taking out key units.
This was evident in a TLO vs White-Ra match back from the beta:
TLO and White-Ra engage in a base trade, and White-Ra happens to suffer major damage against TLO's broodlings, even losing a key Immortal against them.
Also, don't forget the epic MasterAsia vs TT1 stalemate where TT1's Zealot had to time out killing off MasterAsia's buildings to avoid getting killed by all the Broodlings at once.
I think Broodlings are quite effective against small numbers of unsupported units during the late game, especially against drops and small harassment forces. It might suck to lose a hatchery to a few marines and maybe a few tanks, though it'll be a bonus if those marines and perhaps even a tank dies to the Broodlings due to negligent micro.
I highly doubt you are "paying" for Broodlings to get in your structures. If the option to not have them was added, it would just be.. equally pointless and add complexity somewhere it doesn't need to be (how would they even implement that into the interface?). It's honestly a pointless question though, it's like asking "Do Terran builds cost 25 more minerals than they should because they can lift off?".
The effects of them are blatantly obvious and minuscule. You're looking wayyyyyy too deep into this. There simply is no answer aside from "It adds another unique element to Zerg".
On March 14 2011 21:19 Tef wrote: A common technique in ZvZ is to block the opponents gas with an evolution chamber. Rush for ling speed and just when/if the opponent takes down the evo chamber you attack with your speedlings + broodlings. I have never seen it in high level games, but in high, 2800+, Diamond it is quite common. If you don't go for the ling rush you can kill 1 drone with micro when he takes you evo chamber down at a later stage.
No offense But really...
Except it's not really cheese whatsoever... Just something that might seem a bit unorthodox but actually works for little cost. It blocks gas forcing them to either long distance mine or take the other gas offsetting the cost. Also they have to run drones when the evo chamber dies or risk losing a drone or some lings.
I would like to see Spine Crawlers also spawn Broodlings when they're killed. It would make it a bit easier to defend as Zerg, especially early on, as the Spine Crawlers would be more formidable.
In the early game as T, if you push a Z base and over-stim with all your units in the red, you have to sometimes be careful about destroying buildings your units are standing next to, broodlings are actually strong enough to kill them oO
imo i just see them as "design" basicly just to make the building look cool when it dies i dont think it effects the game what so ever unless its master asia vs tt1
On March 14 2011 21:10 eviltomahawk wrote: I think it's a holdover from Dustin Browder's days working for the Command and Conquer franchise.
In C&C games, destroyed or sold buildings usually spawn some leftover Riflemen and sometimes engineers or civilians. It had been a feature of all C&C games since the first Command and Conquer, and I'm not surprised to see it in SC2.
Heck, the Thor is analogous to the Mammoth Tank and the Banshee is an exact replica of the GDI Orca.
They add on an extra two minutes to a win for any game where my 2-rax bunker rush works. Besides that, yeah, I've never once thought "man if they hadn't had broodlings that game would have ended differently."
On March 14 2011 21:10 eviltomahawk wrote: I think it's a holdover from Dustin Browder's days working for the Command and Conquer franchise.
In C&C games, destroyed or sold buildings usually spawn some leftover Riflemen and sometimes engineers or civilians. It had been a feature of all C&C games since the first Command and Conquer, and I'm not surprised to see it in SC2.
Heck, the Thor is analogous to the Mammoth Tank and the Banshee is an exact replica of the GDI Orca.
On March 14 2011 21:05 Flaunt wrote: So I guess I'm the only zerg player who loves it when the broodlings are being hit by siege tanks while running towards the marines O.O....
The discussion is about how useless broodlords are coming out of a building, unless you somehow get a completed offensive evo chamber down right in front of their push or something? Obviously broodlords are different
Replace broodlings with banelings, problem solved.
j/k
But I seriously think they are there just for flavor, not to affect gameplay. I really don't see a problem with them the way they are. I'd much rather see them fix actual issues, like the fact that colossi rape every zerg ground unit or the fact that the hydralisk does far less dps than two stimmed marines but costs 50 gas more and has less utility.
They're not supposed to be a Zerg PF, Terrans need the PF in many cases because their army ist often immobile and slow, thanks to the siege tanks. Counterattacking would be really easy otherwise.
Why do we have to find a use to it? It's cool, it's harmless to balance, keep it. You can't compare it to a PF, really that sounds like disguised balance discussion.
Think about how easy it is to walk into a zerg base and kill something. They're supposed to be a menacing race of swarmy aliens. At the very least, if you kill something, it should explode into a million broodlings and try to murder you.
I thought it was a great addition, even if they don't serve much purpose ingame.
It does give zerg a slight advantage in the odd base-trading situation though.
Well against zerg they can actually kill several zerglings...
I believe when they were designing they tried to do several things with broodlings, like have the queen be able to spawn them for emergency defense and things like that. The building death thing was probably the thing that worked the best. Maybe they'll try to do more with them in HotS but maybe not. I would suggest maybe some sort of broodling upgrade but that kind of random building upgrade seems too terran to me.
Comparing to PF is a little silly though. I mean the planetary requires a ton of money and even some tech...
It would be cool if there was an upgrade that allowed buildings to spawn broodlings whenever it was under attack. I think one of the reasons that zerg hasn't been doing as well as expected on these big new maps is because of how easy it is to take out their expansions compared to the planetary fortress and warp in.
I think I remember a game in the GSL which turned into a elimination race and one player had mutas so he targeted the marines with the broodlings from the buildings he was killing off. I thought that was pretty cool but this game took place on Kulas Ravine so it is a really old game.
On March 14 2011 21:19 Tef wrote: A common technique in ZvZ is to block the opponents gas with an evolution chamber. Rush for ling speed and just when/if the opponent takes down the evo chamber you attack with your speedlings + broodlings. I have never seen it in high level games, but in high, 2800+, Diamond it is quite common. If you don't go for the ling rush you can kill 1 drone with micro when he takes you evo chamber down at a later stage.
No offense But really...
I don't think that is only for cheese. I gas block very often, even though the broodling situation is more related to cheese, but you can still force the opponent to pull his workers for a few seconds. I still think it should be brought up.
terran and protoss town halls never die, and zerg town halls have no chance of living if they ever come under attack. i think it's fair to give zerg a few limited-life zerglings as a little consolation prize.
On March 14 2011 21:10 eviltomahawk wrote: I think it's a holdover from Dustin Browder's days working for the Command and Conquer franchise.
In C&C games, destroyed or sold buildings usually spawn some leftover Riflemen and sometimes engineers or civilians. It had been a feature of all C&C games since the first Command and Conquer, and I'm not surprised to see it in SC2.
Heck, the Thor is analogous to the Mammoth Tank and the Banshee is an exact replica of the GDI Orca.
I thought about making a thread about this too, they seem to serve no real purpose other than being a bit cool. zerg could benefit of a buff to this lil mechanic, what do you think it could be?
In a base race broodlings are so goddamn imbalanced. If you have low amounts of units you basically lose your army trying to kill their base.
Also, when you are about to lose your hatchery, you can wait for the broodlings to spawn out of the destroyed building before engaging, giving you a temporary edge.
On March 14 2011 23:31 Wiwiweb wrote: Why do we have to find a use to it? It's cool, it's harmless to balance, keep it. You can't compare it to a PF, really that sounds like disguised balance discussion.
If you REALLY read the OP what I said was - The terran can pay to have his buildings defend, like the PF. I did NOT say that broodlings are as powerful or should in any other way be compared. The only thing I asked in this context was: Do you pay for your broodlings - like a terran pay for his PF?
I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but Catz has the ZvP close distance strategy where he puts a hatch / evo chamber on the enemy ramp, so that he can't wall off with a zealot. So basically when the evo dies he attacks with lings and broodlings.
Other than that, this question is like asking why the M.U.L.E. can't attack. Ït just is.
On March 15 2011 00:45 Euronyme wrote: I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but Catz has the ZvP close distance strategy where he puts a hatch / evo chamber on the enemy ramp, so that he can't wall off with a zealot. So basically when the evo dies he attacks with lings and broodlings.
Other than that, this question is like asking why the M.U.L.E. can't attack. Ït just is.
M.U.L.E.S can't attack since it doesn't cost supply. You could have macro games going 200/200 on both sides - but the T could make mass OC and call down extra units instantly to the battlefield.This is nothing like that issue
Why not have them? I think they are pretty cute. Fruitdealer used broodlords + lings to surround and kill a bunker in the gsl finals to break the attack that killed his hatchery, he won that game and thus they had their role.
To me that's awesome and it's like the infested terran of starcraft 1, a cool thing to have in a game (rather cute in this case) that you will make a difference oh so rarely.
Protoss buildings regenerate their shields, terran buildings can be healed. Before patch 1.2 or 1.1 Zerg buildings had way lower hitpoints compared to P and T. To even this out, there were broodlings.
At least that's what I always thought. And I thought that after the buff to Z buildings, Blizzard just left them in, because they thought it'd be weird to take them out suddenly.
Maybe it's because generally, a Zerg's base will be much more open to attack when compared to Terran or Protoss bases? This also makes sense, even more so if you consider that they benefit from upgrades.
broodlings have saved so many zergs their as, they delay an opponent from killing your base and give you time to prepare a defense, they are the counterpart to toss shields on buildings or the repair ability of a terran. And sturdiness was never the intention of zergs, so this is just perfect for this race. And Lore wise perfect as the building is alive.
And you pay for the broodling defense since a toss will have to pay for his shields or a terran for the armor plating on their buildings ^^.(though you don't really pay for it as its a free gift like repair or shields) If you want anything upgradeable there is a cool game that just got an expansion out hehe.
And Mules are perfect tanks alongside with autoturrets, but as turrets don't get attack upgrades, and cost 50 energie i think 3/3 infested marines would win a 200 supply battle ravens+CC vs infestors .
Anyway funny thread but used to those if they concern zerg
On March 15 2011 00:45 Euronyme wrote: I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but Catz has the ZvP close distance strategy where he puts a hatch / evo chamber on the enemy ramp, so that he can't wall off with a zealot. So basically when the evo dies he attacks with lings and broodlings.
Other than that, this question is like asking why the M.U.L.E. can't attack. Ït just is.
M.U.L.E.S can't attack since it doesn't cost supply. You could have macro games going 200/200 on both sides - but the T could make mass OC and call down extra units instantly to the battlefield.This is nothing like that issue
They can still fill that exact same roll as meat shields, because what else would they do? You could use them right now as forcefields if you put them on hold position or whatever. There are some things in any game that don't fill much of a roll unless it's a very very extreme condition. For instance the carrier - only used against full mech terrans, and only if you know it's not scouted; motherships - only used against zerg for kiwikaki style of play; battlecruisers - only used in late game TvT when you have air control. Broodlings are for early game cheeses to get a little extra attack power, IE either the ramp evo or the gas evo.
like mentioned above already they have their purpose especially agasint slow low hp units like non-stim Marines, zerglings.. they can give u the little edge u need to win the fight
and btw. why no zerg ever tried to make a "250"/200 army with mass evo chambers in the middle of the map =) mb works with mass air =). hide ur broodlords behind them and if they kill ur chambers u have one extra BL for a few sec =)
On March 14 2011 20:54 hmunkey wrote: They're more customary than anything now. At very early stages of the game they can be useful, sure, but if a Zerg is losing buildings at that stage they're the one with bigger problems. I guess they also force Terran to pick their dropped units after they snipe a structure too.
Overall though, it just seems like an interesting Zerg feature that doesn't really change gameplay much.
if its an interesting idea but doesnt change the gameplay then maybe they should evolve this idea so it actually becomes interesting and changes the gameplay :p as it is now its just like, fuck i lost a tech building, and 6 broodlings spawn there to be cute for a few seconds and then vanish from the game. if its just for lore then i guess its fine right now but if anyone actually thinks its a factor where u say "ok if i kill this tech buildings, i have to remember broodlings spawn from it and that might backfire". only time that thought even cross my mind is in zvz base races with ling baneling wars and like once in a zvp it crossed my mind being dt rushed he killed the tech building and i could surround it with broodlings and the queen to add the extra damage. but to be fair thats like one in time a million times that happens where the broodlings spawned actually changes something
If you saw Up/Down matches today MarineKingPrime actually was killing off Leenocks natural with a marine rush, but as he saw eggs (with lings) being morphed he actually waited killing the hatch untill the lings popped and were killed - as else he should deal with lings and broods. But still, I can't see how this should actually count as a defense.
And nobody adressed my question around if you're actually "paying" for the broods as extra defense?
Can you not post GSL spoilers from earlier today on the front page? Seriously? ...
And as for Broodlings, they're mostly useless. There are situations where they can help defend the area right around them if you time it perfectly, but these are so few and far between that you really can't view them as anything more than cute little bugs.
Every so often, when my base is being sieged by a terran, my counter offensive comes right as he kills one of my tech buildings or evos and the broodlings absorb key damage as my zerglings clean up the rest. Considering I would've lost the building anyway, this is a nice feature of zerg that you can somewhat use to your advantage in a tight spot. It makes the zerg feel more annoying and insectlike too.
Broodlings buy a couple seconds of DPS deflection from an enemy force in your base. That's about it. Also, wicked annoying for dt rushes where detection comes into play.
It'd be really nice if they added some more realistic function to broodlings. atm they do not much more than extreme late-game base trade situations, where every unit counts, and broodlings can tip the tide.
As a terran player I find broodlings extremely good when i'm pushing with marines + tanks and not (m)any medivacs, with the splash dammage of the tanks on my marines I think twice before killing zergs buildings or wait that my marines are far, it gives more time to the zerg and if I don't do this I lose hp/units. It may look minor but that's things that count at high level.
There not completely useless, one game i was hit with a marine siege tank all in, i saved my drones, but when i lost my natural the tanks shot the brood lings killing his own marines. My roaches cleaned up the tanks and i eventually made my way to win the game.
This was about at the 3300 master level so its not like were complete noobs aswell.
I actually had a zerg player let me to kill his third then flanked with lings/blings when the broodlings popped, I couldn't micro away and my force was decimated. I lost that game.
I believe that broodlings are meant to delay attacks enough for the Zerg to produce units using larva inject. What I mean is that due to larva inject, Zerg produces units in waves. If you are at the point where buildings are dying there is a good chance you have very few units, or at least not enough. Broodlings delay the attack from advancing (making units retreat momentarily) which in turn makes your larva inject stronger.
Think of this situation. 20 marines and a medivac are attacking your front and kill a hatchery. You have 10 zerglings which you morph into ~4 banelings. You have 12 or so zerglings being produced (8 from larva inject, 1-2 from larva at your main, and maybe some from the stray larva at your lost hatchery). The broodlings may be what buys you enough time to morph those banelings, let the zerglings finish, and defend.
This is my thoughts on why broodlings are there. Yeah sure it is situational, but it can still be useful.
Its purpose is for base-trading, if a player just a-moves throughout the empty zerg base it will take significant damage from the broodlings. It also adds a lot of hp to a zerg base if its a base-trade scenario which gives zerg some time.
Ive used them to pick off weaker units as well in early-mid game when my opponent is macroing and not paying attention.
And after a bunker rush succeeds in killing off a hatchery sometimes zerg players will use those extra broodlings to overwhelm the bunker that way they can plant the hatch at the natural right away.
Would I rather have the ability to lift off my buildings? fuck yeah, but it just adds another layer of diversity to the game. (:
Zerg buildings have always been the most vulnerable, so I guess Blizzard thought giving them broodlings would make them stronger, which is totally illogical, because if you are losing buildings, you are already pretty fucked.
A better solution would be to have a few broodlings come out for every 100 life the building loses, or just allow carapace to upgrade building armor.
This game.. It made me laugh and therefore it has a purpose ^^
Seriously tho i think their main reason is just to be there cause its a little cool... nothing game changing, but no point taking them away either. In rare causes they have their uses! As the match above shows.
Broodlings are one of those things that help differentiate Zerg from the other races. They also make for some very interesting games. You can even micro the little guys! I saw a game once where broodlings took out the Protoss's last 2 Zealots! It forced a draw even though the Zerg player had no units whatsoever. In my opinion, it's just a fun and different feature of the Zerg which make for a fun display or change of events every once in a while.
For any zerg player who has problems scouting, listen up. As state mentioned on the first page, I use them to scout. Vs terran if you send an early drone and build a evo chamber in the middle of there base, you can scout their build and you are guaranteed to see it. When your evo chamber finishes, you can see 0, 1, or 2 gases and when your evo chamber dies you get 6 that you can scout every corner of there base. If they wait until the evo chamber is gone, that's 2 minutes that they can't build their tech. Map/spawns depend what order you build these.
Vs protoss you can send the drone later, due to the fact if you click their minerals you run right by the zealot. If you want to you can do it earlier and block their cybernetics core placement(some toss will think this is some ramp bust cheese and end up going into 4 gate, which is a free win) If you opt not to do this just build it in vision range of the gas, and once again you are guaranteed to see a stargate or twilight council. If he is 4 gating he can't start the 4th gate until your broodlings are gone. about 60% of my games are won just off of this broodling scout style, so i highly recommend more zerg players doing it.
OP wrote: "I played terran from platinum all the way to masters league " OP also wrote: "a PF which a terran will have to pay a pretty penny to get (550/150) "
You might want to check those numbers, Mr. former Master's League Terran homeboy.
Broodlings are supposed to add a bit more of that Zerg flavour to Zerg, that's all.
Why do Zerg require creep? Why do Protoss require pylon power? Why do protoss buildings stop functioning with out pylons? Why can Terrans lift off? Why do Zerg buildings spawn broodlings.
IF SC1 had broodlings spawn when a building died, no one would question it in SCII.
It adds an extra level of defense for the already underdeveloped Zerg.
I play Terran and I rush Zerg with 2rax pretty often. Basically, the broodlings make me think twice before I attack zerg tech with a small group of just marines. When I have like 8 rines with half health, broodlings are actually very annoying. They draw fire, they attack, and they block my pathing.
it could actually serve a purpuse seeing as it's harder for a zerg to build new buildings in a base trade ending of a game, only fair if it atleast hurts to kill the zerg buildings.
They're just a cool animation, basically, which just happens to do small damage. Consider terran buildings exploding and looking cool, zerg's also explode but have a unit in there.
Personally i think at least 1 broodling should come from every zerg structure. It's not like zerg has many buildings anyway, and it would let us know where Mr. Drone goes off to.
I'd definitely like to see them become at least a little more viable in the base-race scenario. Right now, you kill a Zeg building then run away for a second and none of your units even took any damage.
Zerg do not have to build as many buildings as the other two races. They have an all in one production facility and once you make a single requisite building, all its units can be made from that production facility. Therefore, killing a Zerg building can be far more debilitating then killing a Terran or Protoss building, even with a great Sim City.
I think the broodlings are a way to stall or finish off a harassing or attacking force for Zerg to have a larger response time window and provide some kind of "auto-punish" for an enemy attempting to kill a zerg building.
On March 15 2011 04:49 Stiver wrote: It's racial identity.
Why do Zerg require creep? Why do Protoss require pylon power? Why do protoss buildings stop functioning with out pylons? Why can Terrans lift off? Why do Zerg buildings spawn broodlings.
IF SC1 had broodlings spawn when a building died, no one would question it in SCII.
It adds an extra level of defense for the already underdeveloped Zerg.
I don't think so. Every other thing you names actually affects how the game works (like pylon power and creep) whereas the broodlings don't except once every 1000 games (like the TT1 Master Asia game).
I think it's more like saying, why do zealots psi-blades glow? It probably was meant to be an extra element of defense, but it functions purely aesthetically.
On March 15 2011 04:49 Stiver wrote: It's racial identity.
Why do Zerg require creep? Why do Protoss require pylon power? Why do protoss buildings stop functioning with out pylons? Why can Terrans lift off? Why do Zerg buildings spawn broodlings.
IF SC1 had broodlings spawn when a building died, no one would question it in SCII.
It adds an extra level of defense for the already underdeveloped Zerg.
I don't think so. Every other thing you names actually affects how the game works (like pylon power and creep) whereas the broodlings don't except once every 1000 games (like the TT1 Master Asia game).
I think it's more like saying, why do zealots psi-blades glow? It probably was meant to be an extra element of defense, but it functions purely aesthetically.
Early game they can have an effect of on an overaggressive enemy that tries to snipe a zerg building early with too few forces to back it up. But later on the value diminishes as Zerg can spend more larva on attacking units then droning up (which they do in the early game unless they are rushing). Broodlings could form an early buffer for early Zerg economic builds?
I've seen them used before in a TvZ where as soon as the Hatchery popped he ran his banelings/lings towards the tanks. The back rows of tanks wasted shots killing the nearest target (broodlings) while the lings and banelings got into melee range safely.
It was on the third at Metalopolis and his Hatch was being sieged by a few forward tanks with a big bunch of them behind (surrounded by marines). It worked surprisingly well, as the lings and banelings cleaned up the assault at the cost of a hatchery.
Hmmm.... Seeing as I never played BW I don't know much about lore, but I just always saw them as part of the game. The only uses I've seen are when I believe CatZ did the Evo-Chamber bomb, where he makes a hatch then cancels it and puts down a evo and when it dies he uses the broodlings to attack probes, zealots, and all sorts of stuff.
They're are pretty much worthless, there isn't really a point to having them in the game, but since they are already in the game I don't really mind their existence I guess.
As far as lore is concerned I guess the idea is that if a zerg building is essentially a living thing that something alive should come out of it maybe? Guess that's not really lore but the possible reasoning behind it happening.
On March 14 2011 21:10 eviltomahawk wrote: I think it's a holdover from Dustin Browder's days working for the Command and Conquer franchise.
In C&C games, destroyed or sold buildings usually spawn some leftover Riflemen and sometimes engineers or civilians. It had been a feature of all C&C games since the first Command and Conquer, and I'm not surprised to see it in SC2.
Heck, the Thor is analogous to the Mammoth Tank and the Banshee is an exact replica of the GDI Orca.
QFT
I was a big CnC player, and SC2 has a lot of familiar elements. Heck being able to select as many units as you want, was solely a CnC thing back in the day.
for being cute. Obviously. Even looking for a purpose in the broodlings is kinda odd. Blizzard is cool because some things got into the game which are just cool and can influence a game in 1/100 games.
I think they can help a little bit more in ZvZ against zergling based attacks and can lower his ling count so you can maybe counter attack more efficiently. But for the most part in the other match ups you're right they are probably more use full being called cute, as sadly they cannot help me not die to a protoss 1 gas 4 gate .
What if the structures would release the broodlings when there's an enemy in sight? That could be viable, helping Zerg defend better (not sure if needed). Or make it an upgrade : X mineral X gaz, add a bunch of broodlings to each structure...
Otherwise, i have to agree, broodlings are rarely good. Losing a structure to release some meaningless broodlings...
On March 14 2011 21:19 Tef wrote: A common technique in ZvZ is to block the opponents gas with an evolution chamber. Rush for ling speed and just when/if the opponent takes down the evo chamber you attack with your speedlings + broodlings. I have never seen it in high level games, but in high, 2800+, Diamond it is quite common. If you don't go for the ling rush you can kill 1 drone with micro when he takes you evo chamber down at a later stage.
A common response to this is to just not kill the evo chamber and all-in the opponent, collecting your freewin.
On March 15 2011 07:55 Quixxotik wrote: Broodlings = Reaper = Mothership
Extreme niche situations where they are integral to one side's victory.
Well, I wouldn't really say this. Reapers were super strong (yes, some would say too strong) and the mothership (even though expensive and down the least chosen tech path) serves a purpose and can be a gamechanger - honestly for good or worse - it will most likely be THE game changer.
Broodlings are the exact opposite. Where motherships are rarely seen but once created gamechangers - broodlings are often seen - with little to nothing achieved.
Broodlings are just a cool feature for zerg to have. They serve only the purpose to be visually appeasing, nothing more. I don't rely on them for anything as a zerg player but I would never vote to have them removed.
A cool thought came to mind: What if the number of broodlings spawned from destroyed buildings increased when zerg teched to lair and hive? Or what if Zerg had a cheap upgrade that increased the number of broodlings spawned or lengthen their lifespan, or both? Brood lord would need to be considered for balance with these implementations. Just a cool thought I had.
In some cases, Broodlings make a difference. They prevent you from haphazardly a-moving into a Zerg base, even if only slightly. When I'm attacking a Zerg base, I take great care not to kill two tech buildings at the same time, especially in the early game (say with stimmed marines). If I have Marines that have been stimmed down to red health, it's too easy to lose a few Marines to the sheer number of Broodlings that are produced, and that makes my remaining Marines that much easier for the Zerg to clean up, potentially impacting the additional Drone or other kills I could have. I imagine there are some situations like MorroW described where it's possible to use them as cannon fodder, giving cover to your units when you know you're going to lose a tech building anyway.
Didnt really read many responses, so dont no if this has been said.
Blizzard does a good job trying to keep the races different. If we just look at worker battles (as a general show of how the races are different)
SCV's gain no health BUT can be repaired fully at an extremly fast rate. Drones can regain all there health, but do it slow and metholidically Probes can regain some of there health relativly quickly.
The same is true for the buildings.
Terran - Can be repaired and lifted off. Zerg - spawn broodlings /slow FULL regen Protoss - Regen half health relativly quickly.
You may argue you would prefer a different races skill set / a diff race skill set is better but w.e there different and it would be hard to make them to much different.
EDIT:
A cool thought came to mind: What if the number of broodlings spawned from destroyed buildings increased when zerg teched to lair and hive? Or what if Zerg had a cheap upgrade that increased the number of broodlings spawned or lengthen their lifespan, or both? Brood lord would need to be considered for balance with these implementations. Just a cool thought I had.
The problem with broodlings IMO is that they are obviously for a defensive purpose, but only come out of tech buildings. If in the early game you lose something that spawns broodlings, chances are you're fucked. Eg. you lose a spawning pool to an early rush.
Think about how many buildings you are going to have that will spawn broodlings as zerg, at most 1 of each tech building and a few hatches, its not very many, it would be way more useful if say, zerg had to build supply depots and ur base was littered lots of supply buildings that can't be quickly sniped by 1 stim drop or something, but this isn't the case.
They really need to make spore/spine crawlers spawn broodlings, and increase the amount of broodlings spawned from tech structures, the 6 or 8 (can't remember) that come out of a spire are hardly any deterant to killing said spire but if it was like 25 or something, it might be a different story, forces armies to retreat a bit after killing zerg buildings which is fair imo as zerg simply don't have as many buildings as the other races and hence their bases get rolled over extremely fast. Increasing broodling spawns would help this situation a little. Just my $0.02
blizzard probably felt like it fit in with zerg lore so just included it. broodlings from building deaths are pretty much close to useless except vs zerglings(wtf) and vs sieged tanks
I used to wonder about this too, and I eventually settled for:
When battles boil down to low numbers of units, and somehow 1-2 marines or lings manage to take down a building, the broodlings will take down those attacking units as a sort of punishment
As I've watched streams, perhaps broodlings were designed to act as a very brief meatshield for reinforcing units (with proper timing of course)
there are so many stratagies in mid game, early game even late game that you can use broodlings. the 72% that answered useless here are some tips 1) slow tank pushes? why lose lings and army value, if they are creeping towards you, with good creep spread you can throw down 2-3+ evo chambers break them, use broodlings to push out at tank taking initial damage while you surround with lings. For 75 Minerals late game, doing damage to tanks/marines and you get to get rid of some supply for some units? If your macro is good why not? 2) as catz showed with his early evo chamber rush with lings it can be quite effective since you can block the cybercore and and the broodlings can kill the zealot, big game hitright there 3) oh snap early push and im running out of larva? You can place down spines yes but depending on the map you can block off areas with evo chambers use them to slow down units. for 75 minerals gawd so good
even super late game you can plop down 6 evo chambers, which will=36 broodlings(usuall with atleast 2 damage upgrade/2 defence) these can be baller things.
On March 15 2011 10:36 MadCatZ wrote: For 75 Minerals late game, doing damage to tanks/marines and you get to get rid of some supply for some units? If your macro is good why not?
You also lose the drone for 50min.
That said, I usually get 2 very early evo chambers to block ramps and force the enemy into spines. Together with queens this is a very powerful defense and allows you to drone really hard. And I like heavy upgrading with zerg anyway. And it also allows you to quickly throw down spores against any cloak or air play. But I don't get them for the broodlings, just as a wall.
I think the amount of broodlings coming out of the buildings should be proportional to the building cost. Every 25 resource cost means a pair of broodlings. E.g. an evo chamber gets 6 for 3*25. A hatchery gets 24 for 12*25, an ultralisk cavern gets 28 for 6*25+8*25 resource cost. A hive gives you 100. A greater spire 72.
That way a lot of the zerg early pressure problems could be solved, because it gets pretty costly to do real damage to them killing an early hatch. And late game you also have to consider maybe going more air to clean out zerg bases.
On March 15 2011 10:36 MadCatZ wrote: For 75 Minerals late game, doing damage to tanks/marines and you get to get rid of some supply for some units? If your macro is good why not?
no point except being anoying swarming crap that slows me down a bit?
Dont see the point of it besides it coming out of a Bwood loard -.-, i mean they are annoying as hell whn they suround you and your blink has a bit of cooldown
I really think that broodlings are primarily meant to be "cool". You kill a zerg building of any real importance, and you get attacked for it. Cool. Early game it can be really helpful, but as has been aid late game it becomes pretty null. 6 Broodlings mean nothing to 50 marines on stims.
I do believe there is one "functional" purpose throughout the whole game though: to deter tech sniping, if only slightly. Tech sniping can REALLY put the hurt on a zerg, and the knowledge that even if I succeed there is a good shot I'm going to lose units for it forces me to be more cautious. It isn't huge, but its there.
Logically, its for the drone. Tactically, since zerg buildings are weaker, it gives zergs, especially early game, a chance to hold off the attack, expecially tanks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100823182525/starcraft/images/thumb/8/85/Broodling_SC2_Rend1.jpg/200px-Broodling_SC2_Rend1.jpg)
But really...
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