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On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most."
Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
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On March 15 2011 05:48 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 15:41 NicolBolas wrote:On March 14 2011 15:09 ToyotomiXD wrote:On March 14 2011 14:51 NicolBolas wrote:On March 13 2011 22:03 Mentymion wrote:Here are some reasons why the Patch 1.3 PTR is completley garbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
- It will be the third patch which ignores the Reaper again since Patch 1.1.2. The unit is practically dead cuz of 4 mayor changes such as the Supply Depot Requirement for the Barracks, the Factory Requirement for the Nitro packs Upgrade, the Roach range buff from 3 to 4 and the additionally 5 secs. to build from the Patch 1.1.0 and Blizzard doesn't even care to slightley buff the unit.
- We get another useless build time change for the Bunker. We had a 40 sec. build time at the start of the Beta, 30 sec. during Beta Patch 6 to the end, 35 sec. with the first mayor balance change in Patch 1.1.0 since release and now we will get 40 secs. again which probably won't change anything. Instead of looking on the "Salvage Ability" for bunkers which might be the problem cuz you always get your money back even when your bunker rush fails, Blizzard decides to leave that out and simply increase the build time again.
- Increasing Movement speed from 1.406 to 1.875 for Battlecruisers might be a good change but it's interesting to see that the Battlecruiser get so much attention compared to the Carrier. We had a slight dmg nerf on the Ground weapons during the Patch 1.1.0 and build time decreases for the BC and the Fusion Core during the Beta, fine. Do you actually remember when we had our last Carrier balance change ? Not ? Well the reason is easy. There was none since the start of the Beta. The Carrier is not underpowered but heavily underused and each patch without an effort to change that is a pain in the ass.
- The 3 different Protoss Tech trees will be kinda none existent in the higher level of play if the Khaydarin Amulet and Vortex change really appear in Patch 1.3. As a Protoss player myself I completley agree that Warp-In Storms are to strong but simply removing the upgrade for HT's is so damn silly and Blizzard doesn't even try to redesign those Energy Upgrades but that leads to a another fundamental problem. The whole Templar Tech turns into shit. HT's and DT's were already underused and this change makes it even worse. The Vortex Archon combination is dead. The Mothership has probably lost his best weapon and this unit was also heavily underused. It seems like every P involved Matchup will turn into a War of the Worls with pure Colossi domination and btw. the only thing which had the right to be removed was the Dark Shrine and nothing else.
- Redesigning Fungal Growth instead of Neural Parasite. If you ask a High Level Zerg player about these two abilitys you will always get the same answer. We saw Fungal Growth in the GSL, the ability has potential, it's not like the Spell is totally useless but where the fuck do I see NP in the GSL or high level games? The Spell is probably the worst in the game right now and Blizzard......yeah they buff Fungal Growth -_-
- Ignoring Hydras again and thats really dumb cuz every other change will help out Non-Hydra play. Infestors will take over the DPS role and PvZ turns into Colossi madness anyway so why should we play Hydras anymore ?
- EMP change will have no impact. It rather seems like a joke that EMP finally gets a nerf, after the HT's get nerfed into Oblivion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize.....the patch is complete bullshit! Balancing the game is not about getting the most units working. Buffing Reaper will not balance the game. Buffer NP will not balance the game. Making Carriers better will not balance the game. Making Hydras better will not balance the game. Balance patches are about balance. Buffing something has a very good chance of breaking the game, making balance worse. Making balance worse is the opposite of the purpose of a balance patch. There is more then one way to balance the game, look at how their predecessors balanced starcraft 1. No content was removed, only numbers were changed. This current theme that they have going on seems to be based on pure laziness. Instead of going through all that effort to get storms just right, in terms of damage, range, radius, the actual unit that uses it ect. they simply take the easy path and cut it from the game. ... laziness? I hope you're kidding. There was no effort put into getting storms "just right" in SC1. The range, radius, unit that uses it, etc, were the same from the day that SC1 shipped. The jewel upgrade never had its properties changed from the day SC1 shipped. The only things that ever changed about storm in SC1 were the damage and duration of effect. Blizzard has put forth more time and effort in designing and balancing SC2 than they ever put into SC1. Also, they did not cut Psi Storm from the game. They dropped the Amulet upgrade; that's a far cry from cutting Psi Storm from the game. On March 14 2011 15:28 sk` wrote:On March 14 2011 14:39 Blisse wrote:On March 14 2011 14:36 sk` wrote:
If the problem is insta-storms then shouldn't Bliz just make the Amulet's effect only +20 or +15 starting?
Removing it is like removing a chunk of SC-lore. Then we have to consider that it's not instant Psi Storms they believe to be the problem. Thoughts on what might be? Well... if it is only instant storms then my solution is ideal; however... there are other ways to solve that too. ex. Templars can't be warped, etc. Hard to say what their objective is on this. Not being able to warp-in Templar also means not being able to do warp-in Feedbacks where required. That's a very heavy-handed approach to balancing. Also, having a Gateway unit that can't be warped-in is a big kludge. It'd be like having Vikings get upgraded like Factory units just because it has a ground form. Blizzard's solution is exactly what it needs to be: targeted at the problem and solves exactly and only that. They felt that warp-in Storms were too good, that they were the main reason why TvP was imbalanced late-game. So they took it out. Removing the upgrade is more likely to actually solve the problem than simply nerfing the upgrade a bit. After all, there isn't that much difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. By forcing them to wait a full 25 energy units, it's much more capable of making everything work. Actually, there's a huge difference between instant storms and storms 5 seconds later. And who's to say that they can't nerf KA to make storm 10 seconds later instead of 5 seconds later? That too would solve the problem of warp-in storms yet provide a nice bonus to HT energy that's worth being researched. I too feel that cutting out content such as upgrades is the wrong way to go, and it's really annoying to see stuff getting taken out constantly, especially since blizzard seemed to hint that they wouldn't really be adding new multiplayer units in the expansions. So far, Protoss has lost 2 upgrades now (VR speed, KA), and if the trend of REMOVING stuff in balance patches continues, who knows how many more upgrades for any race will be removed (yeah, slipperly slope, blah blah, and I'll gladly eat my words if Blizzard actually adds in a NEW upgrade in a balance patch, but I doubt it). All you get from REMOVING upgrades is simplifying the game, which is terrible.
That's utter nonsense. Removing stuff does not mean only simplifying the game. And it doesn't even mean that.
Removing an overpowered upgrade does exactly and only that: it removes an overpowered upgrade. Whether this makes the game simpler or not depends on what that upgrade did and how players play with it gone.
Take the KA removal under discussion. Removing it makes it harder to use HTs. You can't just warp-in storms anymore; you have to plan ahead. If you want to use storms defensively, you now must have built the HT ahead of time. This created added complexity for the Protoss to deal with.
In turn, it creates complexity for other races. EMP is now a useful weapon against HTs, whereas before, it couldn't really be used to stop them once KA hit the field. They could always warp-in storms. Now they can't. Zerg no longer have to fear warp-in storms; if they drop you somewhere and an HT isn't already built, then that drop is more likely to succeed.
The only way you can call that simplification is if you think that HTs will simply be abandoned wholesale because of this change.
Also, Blizzard didn't "seemed to hint" any such thing. Saying that they won't "just" be adding new units directly implies that they will be adding new units. The inability of some people to read the word "just" does not change this fact.
Protoss may have lost Flux Vanes, but they also gained a stronger and more useful Void Ray overall. That's a win in my book; if removing an upgrade allows them to make a unit better, so be it.
On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
But it's not equivalent to killing it.
If I kill your HT, you will have lost that HT, certainly. But you will also have gained 2 food with which to build other things. Yes, that's not much of a tradeoff, which is why people prefer that their units live. However, you still gain something out of it.
If I drain a HT's energy, that HT is now almost entirely useless. But it also is still taking up 2 food. So in some ways, it's worse than being dead; you lose the unit, but you still don't have the food back. Yes, if you wait for it to gain its energy back (assuming your opponent allows it, which they shouldn't), then it's better.
But overall, particularly in the late game where money is (relatively) cheaper than time (the time to regen energy), the meager cost of an HT is worth far less than having 2 food attached to a useful unit. That's why Protoss merge HTs into Archons when they're empty rather than having them sit around being useless.
Ghosts with zero energy can still shoot something. They can even call down a nuke. The most you can do with an HT is build an Archon.
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Just a quick thing to point out. Ghosts do have snipe which can in fact kill an HT pretty effectively. It's not always optimal at times, but it is there. And no, it's not as glorious as Feedback, but don't make it sound like the Ghost is defenseless against Feedback.
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One question: if a High Templar is in a Warp Prism, and the Prism is EMP'd, does the HT lose its energy? I don't think so, but I haven't tried it. If so, that might be a good way to shepherd HTs around.
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they should make teching to templar a lot easier/quicker so that you can get them out earlier to conserve energy. maybe reduce build time of templar archives or reduce the amount of minerals it takes to build / research storm
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I recall hearing about how corruptors were gaining bonus against armored as trade off for losing bonus against massives.
Anyone know where that is if it even exists at all?
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fungle is going to be more deadlier than psionic storms.
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On March 16 2011 16:29 ktimekiller wrote:
I recall hearing about how corruptors were gaining bonus against armored as trade off for losing bonus against massives.
Anyone know where that is if it even exists at all?
It was in the "rumored changes that are being thought about by Blizzard" list that came out some time before the real 1.3 PTR deal. One of the few items on that list that didn't make it for the PTR. So, it probably won't happen.
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On March 16 2011 16:33 dde wrote:
fungle is going to be more deadlier than psionic storms.
"More deadlier"? Perhaps. FG dishes out damage to a 77% greater area than Storm (radius of 2 vs 1.5). More deadly, indeed.
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On March 16 2011 15:39 NicolBolas wrote:
One question: if a High Templar is in a Warp Prism, and the Prism is EMP'd, does the HT lose its energy? I don't think so, but I haven't tried it. If so, that might be a good way to shepherd HTs around.
didnt work that way in bw, so im assuming it doesnt in this either
infact it was quite common to put templar in shuttles vs terran, just to make sure roaming vultures didnt rape them or vessels emp them
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On March 16 2011 15:16 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Your completely neglecting the fact that feedback is one unit and emp is an aoe that knocks out shields and energy.. Emp does so much more damage its not even funny.
EMP never ever killed a unit; Feedback already has. The point is that a Ghost is pretty useless without energy and half-dead after a Feedback anyways while two Templars can still merge into an Archon and be useful after a few seconds.
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As a protoss player it feels like looking at the end of "the Return of the Jedi". Luke watches as the ghost of Anakin joins the ghosts of Yoda and Obi-wan, before going back to the party with the living. (just insert colossus, HT, mothership and carrier for the roles...) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S2auEHR4rg&NR=1).
I dont care to talk about the racial balance now. But balancing of units really makes me sad. The game would be so much better, if all the units would be a realistic choice. The easy way out to balance will eventyally lead to each race having one unit - easy to balance, boring as hell. I'm sure it wont get that bad, but P late game is more than half-way there allready. This patch has some good things also, but overall I'd prefer no new patch at all to thisone. How hard can it be to give a little buff to all the units we never ever see?
Get ready to see colossus in every single PvAnybody game that goes long.
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I think some change to the templar was necessary but the complete removal of the amulet? Many people have suggested changes such as giving storm a cool down upon warp in, reducing the amount KA gives you, or making KA make templar regenerate energy faster.
But what about since KA is gone undoing one of the previous nerfs to storm that occurred in alpha. I'm sure instant storms were a problem then too. Which was part of the reason for nerf in storm.
On a side note please stop saying the ghost nerf was supposed to help the HT. The ghost nerf most likely had the sentry in mind. It does help HT even if it is uncommon for them to have 150+ energy. That one time you happen to engage the terran with a ghost with very high energy it could be battle changing meaning the difference between you losing the battle or not.
Also what about this Say you have 2-3 templar with 200 energy and like 6 at ~75. Use the 200 energy ones for feed back because they can still eliminate 2 ghosts from the battle.
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The problem lies with warpgates more than KA. I wish they never put warpgates in the game.
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I've always wondered that it seems like it would be easy to balance.. if the problem lies within the warpgates themselves. (and help out PvP at the same time.)
Make the warpgate have a maximum range. As it stands right now you build your first couple of gates at your ramp or you natural choke after that you put them wherever it would be convenient to have a 3x3 building you can even spread them out to your other bases so the enemy never has a chance to kill them all simultaneously. I mean it doesn't matter where they are you can train the units wherever you want.
No other research from any other race is as essential as warpgate in every one of there MUs. Not even stim and zergling speed because it is possible to play without those upgrades
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Ahem, hold on there Dr. Phil, my suggestion was to restrict HTs to build only from Gateways (and not Warp Gates) to remove Warp-In Storms and keep KA, NOT to remove Warp Gates. WGs are a great step forward from BW. To suggest their removal is like asking to remove Larva Inject and Reactors.
Plus (as I already posted) I'd like to see a reversion of Immortals being built back at the Gateway (w/ Twilight Council and no Warp-In either) to compensate for early mass armored enemy builds while at the same time increase the complexity of Toss macro by requiring to mix up Gateways and Warp Gates.
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What's the status of PTR right now? I haven't been able to log on in a while (EU). Is it just me?
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On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it?
This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing.
Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
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On March 18 2011 02:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it? This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing. Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
What are you talking about? Ghosts w/o energy are still useful. They do ridiculous damage vs light (= zealots). HTs w/o energy can morph into an archon, which gets kited by MM aaaaaaall daaaaaay looooooong, without doing any damage.
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On March 18 2011 02:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 15:29 Fwiffo wrote:On March 16 2011 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 15:38 Noli wrote:
Looks good with most recent update. Insta cast just because I don't have to relearn how to FG properly.
Ghost EMP taking off 100 seems smart since most units either won't have 100 or are like BCs and require more than 100 energy so just a nice polish to EMP not really a nerf since it's pretty much just as effective without completely taking yamato ect out of play. To me it seems like a one-sided view on the whole thing. Lets look at two scenarios: 1. Ghost EMPs a few High Templars: "Shit! We cant psi storm anymore, lets merge into Archons." 2. High Templar Feedbacks a Ghost: "Urgh ... me dead ..." Does this seem fair if EMP only removes 100 energy while Feedback still has the power to kill units? Personally I would love to have one thing added to Feedback as well: "Feedback can not kill a unit, only reduce it to 1 hp at most." Do you (and everyone who thinks like you) understand that rendering a unit useless (reduce enough energy such that it can't cast) is effectively equivalent to killing it? This is quite dumb of you to say, feedback a ghost, it is dead or useless, emp a HT, makes an archon. If hts have full energy and they get hit with emp, they can still storm, if sentries have full energy (which they generaly do if they have sentry expands) and you emp them, they still have half of their forcefields, and thats only the ones you hit, which still leaves a ridiculous amount of ffs which changes the game dramatically. I wish they would actually do something helpful without nerfing the exact same subject again basically neutralizing the entire thing. Also dde is right, fungals are going to be outrageously good now, the zergs will never attack and just use fg to kill every marine in 4-8 seconds as terran tries to push.
You could argue queuing two snipes onto a HT is basically the same as the Ghost being able to use Feedback on the unit. Though I tend to agree that this seems like a myopic (hehe) decision by Blizzard and a band-aid fix.
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EPT
