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On February 26 2011 12:26 [Avarice] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:21 Uhnno wrote:
-Notifications for mules/CB/spawn larvae seem unnecessary. They add clutter and reward worse players who didn't practice multi-tasking as much as better ones, and as such the reward for being able to multi task well is reduced. Granted most people probably wouldn't have a problem with it now if it was implemented in beta (like how the whole "omg MBS" fad died down), but it still seems unnecessary, and part of me is afraid of a slippery slope where I'm playing a game that tells me, "Your Nexus is not building probes." This is all coming from a Gold/Platinum league player who constantly forgets chrono-boosts.
I don't really get why it is an unnecessary change. Many people forget to CB/mule/larva inject, even at the higher leagues. Maybe CB moreso than the other 2 mechanics, especially late game, but there is no real downside to the change. It's like adding the ingame clock a few patches back. There are other ways to measure timings, and the better players know how to (ie amount mined from the minerals/gas etc), but having a tool to aid your macro shouldn't be considered bad or unnessary. If you are already able to perfect use up your CB/inject larva/use mules, then the change shouldn't even bother you at all. If I were a player with very good mechanics, the tool would bother me quite a bit, because people who didn't spend nearly the time I did have the same advantage I do because the game is telling them to do their mechanics. It's making the macro mechanics ceiling much easier to get to, and I don't think it's good for the quality or longevity of a game when everybody can reach a certain "good" point with minimal practice.
The hypothetical situation is in this case pretty invalid. I couldn't and shouldn't care how much time the other player spend refining their mechanics. And an alert doesn't automatically make them macro better. It's like saying having sound cue's make macro easier, because it tells you when your upgrade is done. You still NEED the additional APM to actually do the macro-mechanic.
If my mechanics are better than yours, result of more practice or whatever, I would benefit even more from the CB alert than you. And as I have stated before, even top level players suffer from too much energy on their nexus. All the little things help and the quality won't suffer because you will now miss less CBs.
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Many people fail to see that the reason HT get nerf is not problem with the storm nor the amulet upgrade.
I see it is a problem with warp-in. A cool macro mechanic, got loved by Protoss player but only bring nerf after nerf after nerf to Protoss.
Need an expansion pack(additional unit or mechanic renew) to balance things out. Can't see Protoss get to a good balance wise in WoL.
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Amulet is necessary because they keep(even with the new maps) these tiny, useless maps. Protoss needs a rapid response defense unit because you can get to someone's base so fast. Protoss doesn't have a planetary fortress.
Buff to bcs and nerd to high templars makes carriers even less likely, high temps less likely, and collossus still a ridiculously overused unit that stagnates protoss play SO much. Why is there not something like immortals being immune to emp?
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On February 26 2011 12:31 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:29 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. this Not really. Zealots are the counter to Marauders, and they're out before Marauders.
Marauders lol at zealots with concussive (that incredibly cheap and quick to research ability). Zealots only counter marauders if you have a bunch of sentries (aka at least 3+) or that incredibly expensive and higher teched Charge.
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On February 26 2011 12:32 SolidusR wrote:
Jeez guys it's the PTR relax, remember when infestors had a big FG nerf coming and now it's getting buffed? Just calmly address your concerns to the appropriate forum in Bnet where the dev's may get a chance to view your logic. I for one am calling it right now that HT will get some form of Khaydarin back, and I'm sure other things will be adjusted as well.
The Fungal Growth change is a nerf for every use it currently has. More DPS, but lower duration of the stun. It does a bit more to armored, but the 8 second stun and the instant cast were the parts that made it a good, not the DPS--especially since the overall damage didn't actually change.
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On February 26 2011 12:24 tyrless wrote:
Disappointing that they are reducing diversity of tactics in order to force "balance". Zerg doesn't need more ways to do damage it needs more ways to deal with the mobility of other races, Infestors continue to get the shaft. Removing Amulet is not wise, it's appropriate as a costly lategame upgrade. Mothership becomes increasingly pointless, vortex radius is so small that only an afk bronze leaguer would let their entire army get devoured by one. Terrans are looking ok in their changes, still reeling from the awful depot-before-rax change.
This is my main problem with these fixes. They're nerfing the wrong things and reducing the diversity of tactics. It's not that balance changes shouldn't happen with all of the things they changed, but they just changed them wrong. "hey, archon toilet is broken, let's just make mother ship completely useless." "hey, warped in storm-ready HTs could maybe be too strong, let's just make toss go Colossi every game." Maybe at the end balance is achieved, but I'd much rather play a slightly imbalanced game with many viable options versus a balanced game where each race does two builds.
Also yeah, my thoughts on the mule/CB/spawn larvae notification were more knee-jerk reaction than anything else now that I actually think about it. Sorry about that.
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On February 26 2011 12:00 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 11:59 SaetZero wrote:
@ht nerf:
unless this means HT start with 75 energy, this in my eyes just screams the following situation
BlizzardEmployeeA: "Know what unit is sweet? Colossus"
BlizzardEmployeeB: "So sweet everyone uses them?"
BlizzardEmployeeC: "Nah... some people prefer templar."
BlizzardEmployeeA: "...We can fix that."
>< I laughed for 10 minutes straight.
And your HTs still didn't have enough energy to cast storm
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On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell.
A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200.
Ghosts also cost 100 min extra
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On February 26 2011 12:23 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:20 AmaZing wrote:
An alert has been added when MULEs expire.
# An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.
# An alert has been added when the Spawn Larva buff expires.
hahahahaha the joke has begun. Hey lets take mechanics out of the game altogether, that would be a great idea Eh, who even needs alerts? Spawn Larva eventually becomes ingrained as muscle memory, you aren't going to notice the alert when something important is going on. And if you actually want to Chronoboost something non-stop, it isn't that hard at all, most people already know the timings in their head, I doubt the alert will even do anything (if it is the same as all the other alerts, being some small icon on the top left hand side of your screen, which I never ever notice)
I believe that since spawn larva will be an alert, you should be able to use space bar to cycle through bases and inject. Granted you could've done the same thing with backspace, but if your timings are off you may not go to the right base. Although I'd say it's definitely unnecessary, I could see this really helping newer players take advantage of the Z macro ability, not so much because it'll remind them to do it, but moreso because it'll give them a slightly easier way to do what they were going to do anyway without having to get bogged down to much in getting their hotkeys set up as a noob.
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On February 26 2011 12:30 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:20 AmaZing wrote:
An alert has been added when MULEs expire.
# An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.
# An alert has been added when the Spawn Larva buff expires.
hahahahaha the joke has begun. Hey lets take mechanics out of the game altogether, that would be a great idea Yeah, beside the HT nerf this is the most ridiculous thing ever. Auto-mining, MBS, clever rally point, one infinity group. And now this? Blizzard has been telling us that they want to make SC2 a great E-sport, and it seems that their balance team just want to take out every last things that make a master seperate from the mass. Guess what next time, may be the game will start to make units for you so that your minerals is never gonna surpass 200. Macro god anyone :D
Do you seriously think players with 300apm right now are doing everything? I just can't understand why some players think what makes a strategy game player good is babysitting his mineral line.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2011 12:32 SolidusR wrote:
Jeez guys it's the PTR relax, remember when infestors had a big FG nerf coming and now it's getting buffed? Just calmly address your concerns to the appropriate forum in Bnet where the dev's may get a chance to view your logic. I for one am calling it right now that HT will get some form of Khaydarin back, and I'm sure other things will be adjusted as well.
I actually think it's a huge fungal nerf.
The advantage to fungal was that it stalled your enemy. They either had to sit it out (while taking minor damage) or split their forces.
Now it'll do a tiny bit more damage to armored units (46.8 total?), but will have half the stalling effect.
Even worse, it's dodgable. Yay for stim kiting fungal growth!
Wanted infestors to grab those phoenix and stop them from harassing you? They might get away now!
Nobody cared about the damage, that isn't what fungal was good for. It's not a zerg psi storm, it's a root, and half the root time and possibly avoiding it is a huge fungal nerf.
I approve of the terran changes for the most part. Bunker build time is 'meh'. It'll nerf 2 rax bunker rushes vs. zerg, so that's nice. Battlecruisers needed the buff, so I approve of that. I still think defensive structures should be an expenditure, so I think salvage should be nerfed a little bit. Bunkers that aren't destroyed being essentially free is kind of silly. Not a big deal though. The fungal change, vortex change, and the amulet change are all TERRIBLE though.
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Havn't played extensively with this patch, just like everyone else, so i don't know how good or bad it is yet. However, my opinion based on whats going on in my head is that the amulet gone is strange. I don't really think anyone thought that it was truely OP, especially since Collossi were used way more and were more effective. I'm not mad at this change, but it just seems weird to be further encouraged to go collossi. I was hoping for a collosus nerf and some other buff to the race to compensate.
The vortex nerf..... Well i can see how some of the things you can do with it were not intended, so i guess i understand. Its just weird again to see a unit that is so rarely used get a nerf.
Marine stim time increase. I think this is good. Whether it is enough, i don't know. Perhaps this timing window will be critical for balance, perhaps not. Either way, its a step in the right direction.
I can't comment on the infestor changes except for the increase in health. They were way too fragile before.
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On February 26 2011 12:33 Skillz_Man wrote:
So much hate. I like the patch. As a protoss I'm very pleased with all the changes besides removing the fun things to see like an Archon toilet.
Not exactly sure what the Fungal ability will look like now. Remember guys this is a PTR!
Have you ever gotten anything other than Colossi in PvT?!
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Well, so much for 2base chargelot HT.
Bio+Vikings gonna be a bitch to deal with.
More general protoss nerf qq ect.
From a non-biased POV though, this will fix a few things people were having problems with. I don't really understand the fungal duration time. I thought the point was the time stuff stayed immobile, not the damage it deals.
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On February 26 2011 12:34 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:31 KonohaFlash wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. this Not really. Zealots are the counter to Marauders, and they're out before Marauders. Marauders lol at zealots with concussive (that incredibly cheap and quick to research ability). Zealots only counter marauders if you have a bunch of sentries (aka at least 3+) or that incredibly expensive and higher teched Charge.
yeah i always found it funny that I think even on the site itself, the Blizzard site. The Zealots are considered counters for Marauders. It is like, sure they are. If 1) The Terran does not upgrade concussive shot and 2) The Terran goes afk and does not move his or her units. And even then, with concussive shot, it is plausible to beat them.
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so guys with acces to the PTR, are the marco alerts just a text message? or does it come with sound?
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On February 26 2011 12:35 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:32 SolidusR wrote:
Jeez guys it's the PTR relax, remember when infestors had a big FG nerf coming and now it's getting buffed? Just calmly address your concerns to the appropriate forum in Bnet where the dev's may get a chance to view your logic. I for one am calling it right now that HT will get some form of Khaydarin back, and I'm sure other things will be adjusted as well. I actually think it's a huge fungal nerf. The advantage to fungal was that it stalled your enemy. They either had to sit it out (while taking minor damage) or split their forces. Now it'll do a tiny bit more damage to armored units (46.8 total?), but will have half the stalling effect. Even worse, it's dodgable. Yay for stim kiting fungal growth! Wanted infestors to grab those phoenix and stop them from harassing you? They might get away now! Nobody cared about the damage, that isn't what fungal was good for. It's not a zerg psi storm, it's a root, and half the root time and possibly avoiding it is a huge fungal nerf.
it deals its damage twice as fast though, which is why most ppl are considering it a buff.
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On February 26 2011 12:36 Sra wrote:
so guys with acces to the PTR, are the marco alerts just a text message? or does it come with sound?
Just a little icon on the side, like when your building completes. THATS IT./
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Until I try it out, I'm going to have to go with fungal being buffed, not nerfed. But I could be wrong :D
Depends I guess a little bit on how fast the projectile is.
Also: ouch @ no more amulet. fucking nuts.
And also who cares about the little helper on the side telling you when larva done. Seems like it would only help bronze-gold leagues. Maybe a little higher.
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On February 26 2011 12:35 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell. A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200. Ghosts also cost 100 min extra
STOP THE PRESSES! A unit at the top of the tech tree can go really well against tier 1 units!
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EPT
