Dude, its not like toss is just 1a easy mode. Maybe if you let us sit there and max a perfect ball countering your stuff, but hey, since toss is known as the stronger and more expensive units in the game, it should be clear that that general concept isnt imba. protoss maxed should by nature defeat a zerg maxed or terran maxed if the two are of fairly equal tech concepts. That's the thing, toss is VERY dicey early game in PvT and PvP what with 4gate, early pushes based on stim timing (which are less effective now, but even w/o stim early early pushes are very difficult to deal with, missing a FF is basically GG)
I understand that PvT can seem imba lategame, and maybe it is with templarwarpin w/ instant storm. But that's why I support the KA giving energy just 15-25 short of enough to storm. that way we can't just kill your army after losing ours via a few storms, AND they actually serve a purpose. Besides, since emp has a longer range than storm, i don't see it being insanely hard to deal with the templar if you use your ghosts right. Also, if you emp us, you win, especially if you hit the temps, so i don't see how toss is easy mode? Tbh, though terran requires a lot of micro and such, I feel that if anything terran is easiest to use at least in TvP due to the ability to defend well with tanks, be extremely mobile with drops (and even just outright win with a couple of hellions in the mineral line while i'm fighting your main army, or something like that). also, since EMP counters protoss in general, i fail to see how we protoss are extremely easy to play....
Zerg is not necessarily insanely more difficult, just different imo. Of course, its much harder to win a ZvT than PvT, but the race as a whole isn't like "The hardest to play hands down" It depends on your style and natural capacity for being reactionary, or for limiting the opponents options with certain play.
You know what I hate about the Khaydarin removal? No, it isn't that it will ZOMG MAKE PVT/PVZ UNWINNABLE SO HAX. It's that it's heavily nerfing the only alternative to the Colossus. I don't fucking LIKE making Colossi. I want something that's actually, you know, INTERESTING to use. HTs were interesting. Colossi were and are not. Colossi are really, really badly designed. They're like Reavers in SC:BW except they get better in large numbers and aren't something you transition out of. I hate dead-end unit comps, like BW Carriers, and I don't want it to be the only option for me as a Protoss player.
I know man, I agree with you as well. I never said it would make it unwinnable, just much more dicely. I too would like something other than only colossi, while i like the colossi or VR/colo ball method, its still nice to KNOW you can do something other than that w/o dying. lolol
It would be interesting to see some of the replays of the toss players who are criticizing the amulet removal here to see, on average, how long each of their HTs were on the map before casting a storm. I'll bet it would be more than 40 seconds the majority of the time. The only situation where amulet is crucial to a toss player is when an attack is imminent within 40 seconds. Why should toss players be guaranteed an extremely effective defense to bio within that short of a timeframe?
On another note, if I had a nickel for every exaggeration that was uttered about Starcraft 2 balance, I'd be a billionaire. For example, saying that HTs are now useless is a silly exaggeration. I'd be interested to see how many of the people now claiming that HTs are useless were saying the same thing about void rays after the first VR change.
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
As a Protoss player, I approve this message.
Getting rid of the amulet entirely is crazy. We need to wait... what, 40 seconds to be able to use a single storm without the upgrade? I'm supposed to waste all my gas and build nothing but zealots that far in advance if I *think* the Terran bio ball is going to move out?
LOL, welcome to playing Zerg!
haha yeah that is exactly how Zerg works.. all damn game. And if you guess wrong once within the first 15mins you lose the match.
The game is not intended for all of the 3 races to act the same.
It's also not intended to have them have hugely different degrees of difficulty.
If only Blizzard actually agreed with this totally rational assertion.
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
As a Protoss player, I approve this message.
Getting rid of the amulet entirely is crazy. We need to wait... what, 40 seconds to be able to use a single storm without the upgrade? I'm supposed to waste all my gas and build nothing but zealots that far in advance if I *think* the Terran bio ball is going to move out?
LOL, welcome to playing Zerg!
you can't possible compare Zerg macro to Protoss macro
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
As a Protoss player, I approve this message.
Getting rid of the amulet entirely is crazy. We need to wait... what, 40 seconds to be able to use a single storm without the upgrade? I'm supposed to waste all my gas and build nothing but zealots that far in advance if I *think* the Terran bio ball is going to move out?
LOL, welcome to playing Zerg!
you can't possible compare Zerg macro to Protoss macro
I'm not comparing them, I'm making fun of DarkPlasmaBall for comparing them.
Yeah, I'm warming up to it a bit for the simple fact that TvP early stim timing pushes are just a touch less potent/early. That's a big deal for my PvT, and it will make 2gate robo colossi play more effective. but honestly, i wanted to see MORE options for templar and archon play, not elimination of the #1 usefulness of archons + motherships, and a nerf to the templar. I think that while the 40 seconds wait isn't HORRIBLE, it certainly doesn't increase the braching off from colossi as the single most important and used tech path of toss.
All in all, after thinking about it for a while, I feel that this WILL make PvT lategame more balanced, though possibly a little difficult for Protoss in PvT midishlate game.
My biggest problems, tbh, are with the changes to zerg's infestors (i feel they detract from the usefulness and purpose of them) and, most of all, the removal of FREAKIN WIN LOSS RATIOS from sub-masters. WHY? I just don't get it, we need it arguably even more, I can't think of one reason why they should bother to do that, or why it would be good. Can we still review our games, and see in the match history the ones we won/lost? Any thoughts on why blizzard did that? Now I feel the need to get to masters ASAP, and i'm still working on diamond D:
Actually, the people in Blizzard's SC2 balance aren't dumb. Do you guys think they haven't already thought of most of the possibilities discussed in this thread? The PTR is used to test or check if what they changed in the game will yield what they are actually targeting for (which is in short balance). Therefore, most likely, only the results from games played in PTR will be of importance to blizzard. So it's best if we just play games (in PTR) and just adjust and adapt to the resources we have at the moment.
Storms should probably have a higher radius, but deal less damage, or for more time. Not only would that make them somewhat better (read: give more survability) to bio, and solve a couple of problems, but would make them look powerful. As it is now, they look so small that could be mistaken by those twirls people do on their cups when cooling a drink with a spoon. It feels nothing but fearsome, except for the damage. In that regard BW storm is a bit better, though the graphics are lacking. I also agree with most people about colossus being boring.
Actually from what it seems most people find both bio and colossus somewhat boring, while mech and storm play more exciting. Hopefully Blizzard pays attention to this trend and does something to capitalize on it.
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
Haha dude you just solved this, so simple... cant honestly think of any reason that wouldnt fix this thing^^
That's still a major nerf. Every successive storm that ht wants to cast after the first will take 10 more energy. If you keep your ht alive, that really adds up. I think the best option would be to make KA only increase the starting energy by 20 rather than 25 so the ht can't cast storm instantly. But I would also advocate a collosi nerf in conjunction with this seeing as ht are underused already. The chargelot buff seems warranted and will hopefully help retain balance. \
I think a tier 3 nerf is warranted but a wg buff is needed. I like what they did to the charglots. They should have the stalker attack upgrade be +1 dmg and +1 vs armored. So they wont be op in the early game and you can get upgrades and not just make them cannon fodder.
Actually, the people in Blizzard's SC2 balance aren't dumb. Do you guys think they haven't already thought of most of the possibilities discussed in this thread?
Nah, I think they might not be all that... clever. Game design that features units standing around being useless for 44 seconds = not good.
On February 28 2011 10:40 Zeiryuu wrote: Actually, the people in Blizzard's SC2 balance aren't dumb. Do you guys think they haven't already thought of most of the possibilities discussed in this thread? The PTR is used to test or check if what they changed in the game will yield what they are actually targeting for (which is in short balance). Therefore, most likely, only the results from games played in PTR will be of importance to blizzard. So it's best if we just play games (in PTR) and just adjust and adapt to the resources we have at the moment.
Considering the current state of the game i think they are mongoloids.
I can only hope that the chargelot buff is good enough for zealot sentry stalker WG heavy play to become doable in the late game (i say that's totally fair to make gateway units hold their own thright the whole, just like marines and marauders never really become just cannon fodder or "the frontline" perse. I think, if the chargelot buff will truly make up for the HT nerf when PvT vs bio MMM, it will be actually a lot more fun to play due to a need for a nice FF army split and line to hold the front from kiting the zealots. I guess i'll just start playing on the PTR, and look forward to the future and small hopes that i can somehow still see the games i've won and lost, or at least my running average of wins over losses. thats a critical part of the game and ladder that is really, the worst part of the entire patch imo, along with maybe the weird drop-buff smokescreen changes on meta and other maps.
On February 28 2011 11:09 Lexpar wrote: I can't get on to PTR... Does anyone have a video of what the new fungal missile looks like? Like how fast it moves. Thanks!
Doesn't show units dodging, but gives an impression of the speed.
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
Haha dude you just solved this, so simple... cant honestly think of any reason that wouldnt fix this thing^^
That's still a major nerf. Every successive storm that ht wants to cast after the first will take 10 more energy. If you keep your ht alive, that really adds up. I think the best option would be to make KA only increase the starting energy by 20 rather than 25 so the ht can't cast storm instantly. But I would also advocate a collosi nerf in conjunction with this seeing as ht are underused already. The chargelot buff seems warranted and will hopefully help retain balance.
After playing around with the new FG for awhile, it seems like a nice buff. My only concern is that it may now be so powerful vs terran infantry as to make banelings obsolete. It's no longer something intended to be used in conjunction with them, it could actually be a replacement. Perhaps keeping the missile attack and extra damage vs armoured (or even increasing this past 30%) but scrapping the faster dps and shorter stun would be a viable option.
Yeah but, do people actually keep the templars after they storm during a battle? no they morph them into archons, This is just so they can't warp in and instantly storm after they do to change the tide of the battle the enemy has the time for the 5 energy to build up to try and deal more damage to the protoss player, before they can storm.
I'd love to save templar if it were possible. It simply isn't. They are the slowest ground unit in the game. They aren't going to survive when you retreat. Storm only has 6 range, so you pretty much guarantee that templar are going to be in the line of fire.
On February 28 2011 11:09 Lexpar wrote: I can't get on to PTR... Does anyone have a video of what the new fungal missile looks like? Like how fast it moves. Thanks!
Doesn't show units dodging, but gives an impression of the speed. + Show Spoiler +
You know what I really want... I want fungal growth to be timed instead of a projectile. You cast FG (they should probably make the radius bigger in this case), and the ground glows / changes visually where the FG would hit, so you can move your forces away within a certain time. ZvT would be so cool... It'd be like lurker/ling again!
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
Haha dude you just solved this, so simple... cant honestly think of any reason that wouldnt fix this thing^^
That's still a major nerf. Every successive storm that ht wants to cast after the first will take 10 more energy. If you keep your ht alive, that really adds up. I think the best option would be to make KA only increase the starting energy by 20 rather than 25 so the ht can't cast storm instantly. But I would also advocate a collosi nerf in conjunction with this seeing as ht are underused already. The chargelot buff seems warranted and will hopefully help retain balance.
After playing around with the new FG for awhile, it seems like a nice buff. My only concern is that it may now be so powerful vs terran infantry as to make banelings obsolete. It's no longer something intended to be used in conjunction with them, it could actually be a replacement. Perhaps keeping the missile attack and extra damage vs armoured (or even increasing this past 30%) but scrapping the faster dps and shorter stun would be a viable option.
Yeah but, do people actually keep the templars after they storm during a battle? no they morph them into archons, This is just so they can't warp in and instantly storm after they do to change the tide of the battle the enemy has the time for the 5 energy to build up to try and deal more damage to the protoss player, before they can storm.
I'd love to save templar if it were possible. It simply isn't. They are the slowest ground unit in the game. They aren't going to survive when you retreat. Storm only has 6 range, so you pretty much guarantee that templar are going to be in the line of fire.
That's entirely beside his point. He's saying they cant warp in, cast, then instantly morph into an archon--as in, P base is getting wrecked, you warp in 4 templar, cast a bunch of storms, then instantly have 2 meaty archons to take care of what's left. Basically, the nerf discourages floating.
On February 28 2011 11:09 Lexpar wrote: I can't get on to PTR... Does anyone have a video of what the new fungal missile looks like? Like how fast it moves. Thanks!
On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote: Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
As a Protoss player, I approve this message.
Getting rid of the amulet entirely is crazy. We need to wait... what, 40 seconds to be able to use a single storm without the upgrade? I'm supposed to waste all my gas and build nothing but zealots that far in advance if I *think* the Terran bio ball is going to move out?
LOL, welcome to playing Zerg!
you can't possible compare Zerg macro to Protoss macro
that was a fair comparison.
zerg needs to build an army as soon as they see a army coming towards them, so according to what that guy said, its pretty similar. not in terms of macro, but how you need to prepare for an attack
EPT
