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I think its funny how colossi are a talked about unit that is possibly imbalanced, and how the current situation makes all other tech paths way worse than colossi ball in lategame. Now, that's solidified. I guess blizzard only wants collosi Vr ball play, templar were underused as is except for lategame.
I get that toss lategame, with many HTs and warpin and such, is "OP," but they appoached this in totally the wrong way. get rid of khaydarin? really? just increase the HT cooldown for warpin! sure, we might have like 15-20 warpgates in a macro long game, but after a round of HTs, we'd have to wait a reasonable time to warp in another round.
Also, I get that the archon toilet was kinda op, but really? Now vortex is like, pointless. if there's 1.5 seconds of immunity to the vortexed units, then cant they just snipe the mothership or get free shots at the army while toss waits? so basically, vortex is dead.
This patch will, essentially, kill the templar tech until VERY lategame, prevent the archon from ever emerging as a useful unit that people incorporate, kill the already dead mothership, etc....why?!?!?
oh, and btw, now ZvT will prolly be MORE broken since infestors are useless, terran can just stim away from the fungal missile. even if it hit them, it'd be there for all of 4 seconds. aka, take a marine to like less than half health.
There are some ok things in the patch, but I honestly don't know what blizzard is thinking with this one.
PS: so now, as a non-masters+, i can't see my win-loss ratio? why does that make any sense at all to do?
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Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
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not at all. but that would make sense and allow toss to exist, so why would bliz ever do that?
I have a strong feeling that, despite a mass blow up of "DONT DO THIS BILZZARD" it'll still go through just the same.
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On February 28 2011 07:35 IotaSC wrote:
PS: so now, as a non-masters+, i can't see my win-loss ratio? why does that make any sense at all to do?
Just be quiet and fulfil your destiny as Blizzard's sheep. :p
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On February 28 2011 07:13 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 07:06 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
Instead of making stim take longer to research why not just decrease how ridiculously good it is? Make them fire less fast and walk less fast. As it is currently, it's insane. This isn't really going to solve peoples problems with stim. Because this would destroy terran lategame in tvp. Terran CAN'T compete with toss lategame. Tanks suck, thors suck, bc's suck. We have no lategame army so we have to rely on good dropplay, ghostplay, MMM control and vikings. Please don't come with the argument "terran should use thors and bc's". You don't see it in the GSL and you won't see it anytime soon. Terrans will only win with mech when protoss makes mistakes (for example not expanding like a zerg or 4gate failing, see jinro vs mc). It's not like the best terrans are too lazy to try anything else...
GSTL, MVP Vs Squirtle. MVP made a geat use of Terran mech against protoss late game army. He lost the game but certainly not because of his army composition.
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On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote:
Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
Haha dude you just solved this, so simple...
cant honestly think of any reason that wouldnt fix this thing^^
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United Arab Emirates18 Posts
I guess I will be using DTs even more late game for drop defense and hope for the best.
They are pretty good if the terran isn't paying attention, picking up weak units/ scans and last but not least, ignoring DTs and proceeding to kill tech, especially if he dropped in a choke.
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Is terran actually weak late game, or are a lot of terrans simply not used to making it very late in the game and can't adapt. Seems most terrans end it fairly early, and calling late game weak is odd. I used to play terran and preferred going late game because I was better at that type of game.
Terran L8 game IS weak. And its no fun to play. You have to sit in your base and turtle for 15-20 minutes to get enough mech to be viable. Then your army is so immobile that you have to slow push across the map because if you get out of position, or your tanks are unseiged at the wrong time, your dead.
Your constantly worried about getting outmaneuvered because of lack of mobility. And if you do everything right, and Protoss realizes he can't beat your army, and he's going to lose his base, he goes straight for your base and your in a crazy base trade situation thats a crap shoot - and he has the more mobile army.
Thats mech in a nutshell.
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On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote:
Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that?
Occam's Razor FTW!
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On February 28 2011 07:53 mholden02 wrote:Show nested quote +Is terran actually weak late game, or are a lot of terrans simply not used to making it very late in the game and can't adapt. Seems most terrans end it fairly early, and calling late game weak is odd. I used to play terran and preferred going late game because I was better at that type of game. Terran L8 game IS weak. And its no fun to play. You have to sit in your base and turtle for 15-20 minutes to get enough mech to be viable. Then your army is so immobile that you have to slow push across the map because if you get out of position, or your tanks are unseiged at the wrong time, your dead. Your constantly worried about getting outmaneuvered because of lack of mobility. And if you do everything right, and Protoss realizes he can't beat your army, and he's going to lose his base, he goes straight for your base and your in a crazy base trade situation thats a crap shoot - and he has the more mobile army. Thats mech in a nutshell.
exactly like broodwar.... it's slow but it is effective when used properly
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I'd prefer bringing back BW's +12 starting mana, +50 total mana upgrade. That worked for a very long time - although how does the regen rate compare between SC1 and SC2?
Just flat out nerfing templar like this will just force colossus/stargate play. I can't believe they don't see that. Especially when they remove the one use they found for archons and the Mothership at the same time!
Protoss tier 3 is now: Colossi >>>>>>>>>> HT > Carriers/Mothership
I'm still trying to spin scenarios where templar would be preferable to colossi/stargate after this, and all I end up with is all-in DT rushes (that now can't transition to effective HTs!)
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On February 28 2011 07:35 IotaSC wrote:
I think its funny how colossi are a talked about unit that is possibly imbalanced, and how the current situation makes all other tech paths way worse than colossi ball in lategame. Now, that's solidified. I guess blizzard only wants collosi Vr ball play, templar were underused as is except for lategame.
I get that toss lategame, with many HTs and warpin and such, is "OP," but they appoached this in totally the wrong way. get rid of khaydarin? really? just increase the HT cooldown for warpin! sure, we might have like 15-20 warpgates in a macro long game, but after a round of HTs, we'd have to wait a reasonable time to warp in another round.
Also, I get that the archon toilet was kinda op, but really? Now vortex is like, pointless. if there's 1.5 seconds of immunity to the vortexed units, then cant they just snipe the mothership or get free shots at the army while toss waits? so basically, vortex is dead.
This patch will, essentially, kill the templar tech until VERY lategame, prevent the archon from ever emerging as a useful unit that people incorporate, kill the already dead mothership, etc....why?!?!?
oh, and btw, now ZvT will prolly be MORE broken since infestors are useless, terran can just stim away from the fungal missile. even if it hit them, it'd be there for all of 4 seconds. aka, take a marine to like less than half health.
There are some ok things in the patch, but I honestly don't know what blizzard is thinking with this one.
PS: so now, as a non-masters+, i can't see my win-loss ratio? why does that make any sense at all to do?
I assume you have misread the patch notes, the infestor deals the same damage but in a shorter amount of time, therefore a stim and fast damage is likely to kill the ones that were hit by the fungal before any medivacts can heal properly and may mean stimming and trying to run is a bad idea. So ZvT is likely going to evolve into more ghost play.
The Mothership nerf is to stop the over powered arcon toilet which has to go, one shoting an entire 200/200 army is broken
Warp itself is very strong, allows protoss to react to many situations on the fly, blocking holes on ramps as lings try to runby, covering drops, 4/6 gate pushing while over races have to anticipate a fight and wait the full 50 seconds for their units to spawn and then risk losing units as they try to get to a rally point. However we would think warp collosus would be over powered and thats an AOE so I would have to agree with blizz that warp storm would be similar to having a collosus anywhere you needed one and there should be some more planning from protoss in order to pull off that insane storming damage.
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On February 28 2011 07:47 macattacc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 07:38 skrzmark wrote:
Keep the amulet but make storm cost 80 energy how hard is that? Haha dude you just solved this, so simple... cant honestly think of any reason that wouldnt fix this thing^^
That's still a major nerf. Every successive storm that ht wants to cast after the first will take 10 more energy. If you keep your ht alive, that really adds up. I think the best option would be to make KA only increase the starting energy by 20 rather than 25 so the ht can't cast storm instantly. But I would also advocate a collosi nerf in conjunction with this seeing as ht are underused already. The chargelot buff seems warranted and will hopefully help retain balance.
After playing around with the new FG for awhile, it seems like a nice buff. My only concern is that it may now be so powerful vs terran infantry as to make banelings obsolete. It's no longer something intended to be used in conjunction with them, it could actually be a replacement. Perhaps keeping the missile attack and extra damage vs armoured (or even increasing this past 30%) but scrapping the faster dps and shorter stun would be a viable option.
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On February 28 2011 07:53 mholden02 wrote:Show nested quote +Is terran actually weak late game, or are a lot of terrans simply not used to making it very late in the game and can't adapt. Seems most terrans end it fairly early, and calling late game weak is odd. I used to play terran and preferred going late game because I was better at that type of game. Terran L8 game IS weak. And its no fun to play. You have to sit in your base and turtle for 15-20 minutes to get enough mech to be viable. Then your army is so immobile that you have to slow push across the map because if you get out of position, or your tanks are unseiged at the wrong time, your dead. Your constantly worried about getting outmaneuvered because of lack of mobility. And if you do everything right, and Protoss realizes he can't beat your army, and he's going to lose his base, he goes straight for your base and your in a crazy base trade situation thats a crap shoot - and he has the more mobile army. Thats mech in a nutshell.
Honestly no terran should talk to a protoss about being immobile. Our army cannot split up strom beginning to end. Obviously toss is more immobile than terran. At least you can drop your mech.
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Yeah, we should just get rid of warpgates. Toss should probably have to deal with terran earlygame by walling off with cannons. The fundamental toss mechanic that defines them and makes them not crap should be gone. while we're at it, we should just remove toss from the game?
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GSTL, MVP Vs Squirtle. MVP made a geat use of Terran mech against protoss late game army. He lost the game but certainly not because of his army composition.
Thats your example of successful Terran mech? The best Terran in the world getting crushed Late game with the very composition u claim is "Good."
The only successful Tank play I've seen vs Protoss at GSL was Jinro vs MC on Lost Temple. And that was close positions, and was essentially Steps of War style play from that close. When the distance between bases is greater than that, about every other map, Mech's immobility becomes increasingly detrimental and easily outmaneuvered.
While mech has the firepower to handle late game Protoss, it does not have the mobility. Colossus can walk cliffs and Templar can be warped anywhere there's a pylon. A bio mech composition is the likely solution, but then Terran never reaches the critical amount of tanks necessary to defeat the Protoss late game composition.
When Terrans manage to have the superior late game army Protoss simply goes around the tank ball, counter attacks and a base trade ensues. This leads to crazy games, ala TvT (Nada vs MarineKing) and victory is certainly not assured.
So Terrans are being logical sticking with bio, even tho its not very good late game - the alternative is worse.
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hmmm don't wanna be hating on the amulet tweak before i've seen it, but i'm a little cynical about the change if it's to stop HT 'drops' with storm.
isn't stimmed marauders a far easier drop to pull off, and can take out the whole command centre, not just unmicroed workers. GSL (on the bigger maps) seem to see so many drops from Terran, none from Protoss...?
(yes, this is a thinly veiled whine  )
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make storm actually fucking take skill to use instead of nerfing it imo
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On February 28 2011 07:53 mholden02 wrote:Show nested quote +Is terran actually weak late game, or are a lot of terrans simply not used to making it very late in the game and can't adapt. Seems most terrans end it fairly early, and calling late game weak is odd. I used to play terran and preferred going late game because I was better at that type of game. Terran L8 game IS weak. And its no fun to play. You have to sit in your base and turtle for 15-20 minutes to get enough mech to be viable. Then your army is so immobile that you have to slow push across the map because if you get out of position, or your tanks are unseiged at the wrong time, your dead. Your constantly worried about getting outmaneuvered because of lack of mobility. And if you do everything right, and Protoss realizes he can't beat your army, and he's going to lose his base, he goes straight for your base and your in a crazy base trade situation thats a crap shoot - and he has the more mobile army. Thats mech in a nutshell.
Actually terran late game is super strong if the terran player knows how to do it properly. Watch GSL tvz on the new bigger maps and look terrans are winning in late game! I know tvp terran was weak late game vs toss but I'm pretty sure with this patch tvp late game is going to be alot more doable for terrans late game.
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you should really watch artosis games for the Code A qualifer and then try to tell toss with a straight face that mech isnt good late game against toss. The guy openened banshees and and kept Artosis from moving out, but artosis does a great job of minimizing the harass and expands like normal and goes HT and once he scouts the thors, he started going mass archon/ voidray, well when he ran into the terran, he had 10+ thors marines and ghosts and pretty much emped everything and the thors manhandled the rest while he lost maybe 1 or 2 thors.
2nd game guy does the same thing and artosis goes mass immortal and once again the terran emped everything and lost 1-2 thors while toss lost his entire maxed out army. Dont tell me terran late game sucks, because ghost/thor/marine/bansee is a deadly mix.
Nobody here is saying go mech, because obviously it takes a long time for mech to come out, however when terrans get the third base up and going transitioning from bio to mech is VERY strong, with PF and turrets at each expo it becomes very hard for toss toe take out a expo without you getting in postion to attack. Obs are easily sniped with ravens/scans and pdd is damn close to being OP against toss, as it pretty much makes our best damage dealer against air useless.
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EPT
