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TMD
Canada93 Posts
 )EDIT: guess I need proof for something posted here, so: http://drop.sc/284512 I just got sc2 a month ago, played BW for about a year,, I figured something was up when I noticed his scout patrolling my natural for a bit there... seen that behavior on youtube games... and when his DeathBall came, I knew we were F'd. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
When you queue up, the system tries to group people queued for that game type together into multiple games in a way that's globally optimal for everyone who's queued at the moment. This produces better results overall than just going through and making one game after another, but it also means that, particularly if you're playing during off hours for your region, you're more likely to encounter people who are way above or way below your skill level. If there were only 10 or so people queueing, for example, that's enough to make two 2v2 games, and you can see how that might lead to a diamond league player getting thrown in with some bronze league players if the skill distribution of those 10 people were a little off (say 5 high-league players and 5 low-league players.) The extra 2 people queued in my hypothetical would then have been kept around for an extra 30 seconds or whatever to find more people. Edit: You'll see less of this in the smaller game types. So, 1v1 has less of this going on than 2v2, which has less than 3v3, which has less than 4v4. However, during off hours, the matching even for 1v1 does get significantly looser so people aren't waiting forever for a game. | ||
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Myth123
Sweden2 Posts
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CaptainCharisma
New Zealand808 Posts
I got promoted to Masters 1v1 about 3 hours before the recent season lock. I didn't play any games after being promoted. I lost my placement match this season and got placed in Diamond, now facing people who placed in Masters. I thought your MMR needed to stablise in the higher league before you are promoted. How come then I get demoted immediately? I haven't lost any games since being promoted! | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
(awaiting MMRtool conclusion) | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On January 03 2013 22:51 CaptainCharisma wrote: Can someone please explain this: I got promoted to Masters 1v1 about 3 hours before the recent season lock. I didn't play any games after being promoted. I lost my placement match this season and got placed in Diamond, now facing people who placed in Masters. I thought your MMR needed to stablise in the higher league before you are promoted. How come then I get demoted immediately? I haven't lost any games since being promoted! Either the offsets changed or the outcome of the placement match put you just below the border, or both! | ||
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CaptainCharisma
New Zealand808 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On January 04 2013 01:29 CaptainCharisma wrote: Okay, thanks. If it's of any interest I went 8-5 in the new season and got promoted back to masters. This isn't the first I'm hearing of unexpected placements this season, by the way, so it's entirely possible the offsets changed again. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On January 04 2013 01:32 Excalibur_Z wrote: This isn't the first I'm hearing of unexpected placements this season, by the way, so it's entirely possible the offsets changed again. Its not mine either. Practically my entire list is of people in mid-masters or higher including 18 GMs from last season. A lot of them are in diamond this season. It doesn't last long because obviously they shoot up in MMR quickly but the fact 1700+ masters and 1600+ masters are being put in diamond should tell us something weird is up. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On January 04 2013 08:58 sCCrooked wrote: A lot of them are in diamond this season. It doesn't last long because obviously they shoot up in MMR quickly but the fact 1700+ masters and 1600+ masters are being put in diamond should tell us something weird is up. That part seems strange to me. If the offsets change and their MMR are bellow the new needed value for masters, they should not move back to masters quickly: MMR does not shoot up after a season change, only points. This would be happening if they had lost a few games on purpose (dumping their MMR) to play again after season change, but I get echoes from master players on the eu server that report the same thing (down to diamond and fast up master), without any loss to report. Some diamond players were also reporting that they had faced ex-masters and lost badly for a few games at season start when they were mid-tier diamond S5 (and never facing master players). | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On January 05 2013 00:06 Oshuy wrote: That part seems strange to me. If the offsets change and their MMR are bellow the new needed value for masters, they should not move back to masters quickly: MMR does not shoot up after a season change, only points. This would be happening if they had lost a few games on purpose (dumping their MMR) to play again after season change, but I get echoes from master players on the eu server that report the same thing (down to diamond and fast up master), without any loss to report. Some diamond players were also reporting that they had faced ex-masters and lost badly for a few games at season start when they were mid-tier diamond S5 (and never facing master players). I do have a couple of theories on this but they don't really hold water. Maybe I can just put these ideas out there to spark some discussion: Theory #1: The prior redistribution was redone and therefore the offsets changed. This is nothing new, and it's happened several times before. What it doesn't explain necessarily is how people are getting back up to their original league after being placed in a lower league. Everything is anecdotal until we see some hard statistics like the new population distribution from SC2Ranks. MMR only cares about the relative distance between two players and that's how it determines the skill difference. For example, let's say Master requires 2000 MMR (just hypothetical values). You have two players at 2050 and 2150, above the Master boundary. The gap between the two players is 100 and assuming the better player wins 60% of the time (or whatever that gap corresponds to), that gap will stay at 100. Now, if the Master boundary were moved up to 2200, both of those players would drop down into Diamond, but as long as they're playing only each other they won't go up or down because that gap will remain constant. Maybe it's just that some of the less serious players are playing their Day 1 Season games and losing, allowing the more veteran players to climb back up fairly easily? Theory #2: There was a global MMR "soft-reduction" similar to the "minimum MMR" point-earnings phenomenon. I'll explain that a little bit. When you have 0 points and your opponent has an MMR equivalent to <=0 points in your league, you earn points as if their MMR were equivalent to some minimum nonzero value, previously that was around 73. Therefore, it's actually harder to get stuck at 0 points because your points are being influenced back up toward 73. The reason for this is because after everybody gets placed, they want everyone's points to go up a little bit as an incentive to play. What if they introduced something similar, but for MMR rather than just points? That is, what if you're still being matched against the same MMR opponents as before, but there's some 100-MMR buffer in place that makes you appear to be lower? Let's use the same values as before: Master is 2000, you're 2050. With this buffer you would appear to be 1950 and therefore Diamond, but you're still matched primarily against 2050 opponents (who would also appear to be 1950 and therefore Diamond) and you each earn MMR as though you were a 1950 battling a 2050. If you lose then you'd be a 2025 who appears to be a 1950 still, and if you won you'd be a 2050 who appears to be a 1980. If the buffer gets eaten up by you losing, then the new placement was correct. But, if the buffer gets eaten up by you winning, then you get promoted anyway which feels good. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
Good indicator the offsets did not change  But i hear about strange promotions. Will look into data in few days when i have several k games. EDIT: nevermind first complain about big shift rolled in.... | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On January 05 2013 03:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: I do have a couple of theories on this but they don't really hold water. Maybe I can just put these ideas out there to spark some discussion: Theory #1: The prior redistribution was redone and therefore the offsets changed. This is nothing new, and it's happened several times before. What it doesn't explain necessarily is how people are getting back up to their original league after being placed in a lower league. Everything is anecdotal until we see some hard statistics like the new population distribution from SC2Ranks. MMR only cares about the relative distance between two players and that's how it determines the skill difference. For example, let's say Master requires 2000 MMR (just hypothetical values). You have two players at 2050 and 2150, above the Master boundary. The gap between the two players is 100 and assuming the better player wins 60% of the time (or whatever that gap corresponds to), that gap will stay at 100. Now, if the Master boundary were moved up to 2200, both of those players would drop down into Diamond, but as long as they're playing only each other they won't go up or down because that gap will remain constant. Maybe it's just that some of the less serious players are playing their Day 1 Season games and losing, allowing the more veteran players to climb back up fairly easily? Theory #2: There was a global MMR "soft-reduction" similar to the "minimum MMR" point-earnings phenomenon. I'll explain that a little bit. When you have 0 points and your opponent has an MMR equivalent to <=0 points in your league, you earn points as if their MMR were equivalent to some minimum nonzero value, previously that was around 73. Therefore, it's actually harder to get stuck at 0 points because your points are being influenced back up toward 73. The reason for this is because after everybody gets placed, they want everyone's points to go up a little bit as an incentive to play. What if they introduced something similar, but for MMR rather than just points? That is, what if you're still being matched against the same MMR opponents as before, but there's some 100-MMR buffer in place that makes you appear to be lower? Let's use the same values as before: Master is 2000, you're 2050. With this buffer you would appear to be 1950 and therefore Diamond, but you're still matched primarily against 2050 opponents (who would also appear to be 1950 and therefore Diamond) and you each earn MMR as though you were a 1950 battling a 2050. If you lose then you'd be a 2025 who appears to be a 1950 still, and if you won you'd be a 2050 who appears to be a 1980. If the buffer gets eaten up by you losing, then the new placement was correct. But, if the buffer gets eaten up by you winning, then you get promoted anyway which feels good. Just responding to your first theory, sc2 ranks currently shows 1,068 people in masters link There used to be 13,409 masters on NA. source This would indicate a nearly 90%++ reduction in the amount of masters on the NA server. I don't know if this is true for other servers or not, but going from over 13,000 masters to barely over 1,000 seems strange. I know its very early and some might not be playing their matches just yet but this is a HUGE reduction nonetheless even if you take that into consideration. I also have to report there's a massive amount of long-time masters players who were in excess of 1000 points just last season who can't seem to get promoted back to masters easily. Some are able to do it in 8-10 games. Others have more than 40 played already and can't get promoted back. The MMR and points ratings of these players varies greatly and some very low masters last season are back in masters while ones above 1600 and even 1700 pionts are still in diamond after playing a fairly large volume for 1 day. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
BTW: sc2ranks use bots. They need a while until they tracked all accounts. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415516833?page=8#153 TL;DR is that it's apparently working as intended, but it seems a little more than a "small adjustment" from what I've seen. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:19 Defenestrator wrote: Blizzard's official response: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7415516833?page=8#153 TL;DR is that it's apparently working as intended, but it seems a little more than a "small adjustment" from what I've seen. Responses like what he gave are what really piss me off and deter me from talking to Blizzard. That P.O.S. statement looked like it was a computer-generated "official" response. It lacked depth, explanation or any sort of "human" element. 6 of the top 8 in my diamond division were more than 700 or 1000 points master last season. 5 of those 6 were masters for more than 4 seasons consecutively. This whole "Let's mess with the system and watch them scurry around trying to figure out what went wrong" thing is getting very old and annoying. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:53 sCCrooked wrote: Responses like what he gave are what really piss me off and deter me from talking to Blizzard. That P.O.S. statement looked like it was a computer-generated "official" response. It lacked depth, explanation or any sort of "human" element. 6 of the top 8 in my diamond division were more than 700 or 1000 points master last season. 5 of those 6 were masters for more than 4 seasons consecutively. This whole "Let's mess with the system and watch them scurry around trying to figure out what went wrong" thing is getting very old and annoying. The translation is that they changed the offsets, but they probably don't want to delve too deeply into the nitty-gritty mechanics. At the very least we know that the Master border is raised significantly, probably also the Diamond one raised up, and probably not enough information about the rest. | ||
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TDC
United States197 Posts
On January 03 2013 22:51 CaptainCharisma wrote: Can someone please explain this: I got promoted to Masters 1v1 about 3 hours before the recent season lock. I didn't play any games after being promoted. I lost my placement match this season and got placed in Diamond, now facing people who placed in Masters. I thought your MMR needed to stablise in the higher league before you are promoted. How come then I get demoted immediately? I haven't lost any games since being promoted! Yea I was #18 Master league player until the new season started, won the placement match, and was placed into diamond. I did quickly went 7-3 and was promoted soon enough. Although in Blizzard's defense, I think I lost about 60% of the games on the last day of ladder. | ||
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
The important fact is that the MMR is still working as always, so you are still facing the players around your skill level, so it's all fair. The leagues work with percentiles in "mind" (system?), so it's not about you, it's about where do you stand when facing everyone else. So, top 200, top 2%, top 20%. It's a competition and competitions are tough, because it doesn't matter how good or bad you are, it matters how good the best and the worst are and where you stand in the crowd. That said, being master or not won't tell the truth about you and anyone. I liked that they did it, several bronzes and silvers were promoted and are happy now and less masters might force some people to understand that it IS IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to be at master or even diamond, platinum, whatever. The system requires 20% of the people to be bronze, even if they were all Flash clones, 20% of them would be bronzes. I think that the next step is an educational step. It's okay to be bronze, silver, diamond, let's stop the prejudice and let's enjoy the game (instead of simple dreaming of being the best and stressing that you are falling behind and suddenly what you say won't matter etc). The community might need to evolve to accept this simple truth that exists in a competitive environment. | ||
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ZanXala
Sweden26 Posts
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