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On October 30 2012 01:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 20:34 Skirmjan wrote:On October 29 2012 19:52 Mura19 wrote:
I don't want to know why the broken ladder system is broken, I want blizzard make a change. I want fair system like Iccup. And Generalul, you totally right, i'ts just another problem with the system... your "friend" is playing against player with higher MMR than your opponents, has an higher MMR than you have, and as such is getting more points as his ladder points are rapidly running towards his high MMR. let's make a practical example: it's 1st of november, points are reset and you're placed in the same master league as the real IMMVP*; as he plays progamers, and has an incredibly high MMR, his points will rapidly rise towards it, faster than yours do (and btw, i think this is totally right and legit,otherwised points would totally be an activity meter, while this way they are at least tied to real skill, that being MMR). This happens because points are reset while MMR is not, just imagine ICCUP with a seasonal reset that keeps you in the old "letter" (say,C-) category and has a "back into form" meter, as ladder points. What really compares with ICCUP scores is the real MMR, which is hidden and pretty shaky. The league is also pretty much a % page, nothing more. being diamond means top 18%, for istance. I must say that i'm actually unsure if you're being serious tho. The ladder matchmaking is totally fine, could use some more stats and transparency, but works totally right. @ExcaliburZ i remember reading one of your post saying that actually master was enlarged, going from top 2% to top 5% or something, i remember you weren't sure about how much of an enlargement there had been back then (i wasn't registered in TL yet) is that still true? do we have more precise data? *too lazy to write in the LG It is still true, but until Blizzard releases the new target percentiles, I can't update the guide with 100% confidence. The only thing I was told was "the sc2ranks numbers are fairly accurate" but those have a lot of slush, one week Master might be 4%, the next 5%, the next 6%, so it's difficult to pinpoint.
i see, but when exactly did the master enlarge? i think i remember it was more than 2 season ago, so will blizzard release those target percentiles before hots? >.<
can you at least add a small notice "master is a larger % right now"? cause most ppl still think think it is 2%, unless you think it's better to have an old statement than an incomplete one
thanks for the answer anyway :D
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When I play SC2 and I'm favored, I feel like ''F#$% my life'' because whatever I win or loss I feel bad because I know I will won like +5 points or -20 points for loss and probably won't be a easy match. In ICCUP I feel always good because I know whatever I loss or win, the points I gain or loss will be correct for the effort I do.
Someone else feel like that when favored at SC2?
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On October 29 2012 19:52 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 05:35 Lysenko wrote:On October 28 2012 05:04 Mura19 wrote:On October 28 2012 00:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 27 2012 23:53 Mura19 wrote:
I got 567 points in 500 games played this season. In the same league I see some players with 1100 points with 50 games played. This broken ladder system don't make any sense to me... playing 450 more games and get less points than other players with the same ratio win/loss.... You're playing different calibers of players. How many games I need to play to get same points as the other guy who get 1100points with 50 game played?? 1000 games? 2000 games ? Just because this guys play againt '' different calibers of players''. Im not sure if you serious or not... He's very serious. A better player will have a higher hidden matchmaking rating and his point score will rise higher as a result. Once you are done with bonus pool, points are driven by your quality of play, not how much you play. If your points are at the level that corresponds to your matchmaking rating, you will, on average, lose as many points as you gain and thus stay in about the same place. The only way to catch up to the guy at 1100 is to improve your game and get better.Edit: All the answers are in the original post. Your questions will all be addressed when you read and understand it. I don't want to know why the broken ladder system is broken, I want blizzard make a change. I want fair system like Iccup. And Generalul, you totally right, i'ts just another problem with the system...
What? You want people to get higher rankings not by being better but by playing more? I think you're trolling.
Edit: I'm not saying that's how ICCUP worked, but you seem to be expecting to get your points up by playing more games rather than improving your skill, which would be actually broken, unlike the current system which basically works.
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Ex, with the removal of the division tiers, what do you expect is the impact on the "almost-guaranteed promotion" point value for bonus-adjusted points?
I started in gold this season, quickly made it to high plat, and have been sitting at about 519 points. Subtract 239 bonus so 280 adjusted -- I'm wondering if (due to the division removal) the numbers are reduced for almost-guaranteed league promotion; in this case for Plat to Diamond it would be the 435 - 189 = 246. I do play against mainly high-plat to mid/high diamond, so I think I'm close regardless.
Just wondering your interpretation of this change.
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On October 30 2012 04:35 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 19:52 Mura19 wrote:On October 28 2012 05:35 Lysenko wrote:On October 28 2012 05:04 Mura19 wrote:On October 28 2012 00:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 27 2012 23:53 Mura19 wrote:
I got 567 points in 500 games played this season. In the same league I see some players with 1100 points with 50 games played. This broken ladder system don't make any sense to me... playing 450 more games and get less points than other players with the same ratio win/loss.... You're playing different calibers of players. How many games I need to play to get same points as the other guy who get 1100points with 50 game played?? 1000 games? 2000 games ? Just because this guys play againt '' different calibers of players''. Im not sure if you serious or not... He's very serious. A better player will have a higher hidden matchmaking rating and his point score will rise higher as a result. Once you are done with bonus pool, points are driven by your quality of play, not how much you play. If your points are at the level that corresponds to your matchmaking rating, you will, on average, lose as many points as you gain and thus stay in about the same place. The only way to catch up to the guy at 1100 is to improve your game and get better.Edit: All the answers are in the original post. Your questions will all be addressed when you read and understand it. I don't want to know why the broken ladder system is broken, I want blizzard make a change. I want fair system like Iccup. And Generalul, you totally right, i'ts just another problem with the system... What? You want people to get higher rankings not by being better but by playing more? I think you're trolling. Edit: I'm not saying that's how ICCUP worked, but you seem to be expecting to get your points up by playing more games rather than improving your skill, which would be actually broken, unlike the current system which basically works.
You don't understand anything what I'm saying... I only say that not normal to get the same points than other guy played 1000 games more than you with the same ratio win/loss.
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United States12235 Posts
On October 30 2012 06:31 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 04:35 Lysenko wrote:On October 29 2012 19:52 Mura19 wrote:On October 28 2012 05:35 Lysenko wrote:On October 28 2012 05:04 Mura19 wrote:On October 28 2012 00:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 27 2012 23:53 Mura19 wrote:
I got 567 points in 500 games played this season. In the same league I see some players with 1100 points with 50 games played. This broken ladder system don't make any sense to me... playing 450 more games and get less points than other players with the same ratio win/loss.... You're playing different calibers of players. How many games I need to play to get same points as the other guy who get 1100points with 50 game played?? 1000 games? 2000 games ? Just because this guys play againt '' different calibers of players''. Im not sure if you serious or not... He's very serious. A better player will have a higher hidden matchmaking rating and his point score will rise higher as a result. Once you are done with bonus pool, points are driven by your quality of play, not how much you play. If your points are at the level that corresponds to your matchmaking rating, you will, on average, lose as many points as you gain and thus stay in about the same place. The only way to catch up to the guy at 1100 is to improve your game and get better.Edit: All the answers are in the original post. Your questions will all be addressed when you read and understand it. I don't want to know why the broken ladder system is broken, I want blizzard make a change. I want fair system like Iccup. And Generalul, you totally right, i'ts just another problem with the system... What? You want people to get higher rankings not by being better but by playing more? I think you're trolling. Edit: I'm not saying that's how ICCUP worked, but you seem to be expecting to get your points up by playing more games rather than improving your skill, which would be actually broken, unlike the current system which basically works. You don't understand anything what I'm saying... I only say that not normal to get the same points than other guy played 1000 games more than you with the same ratio win/loss.
MMR is not representative of win ratio, I thought we'd explained that well enough by now. You need to look at that guy's opponent history in addition to his match history, then it will make more sense why he's earning more points than you despite a similar win percentage. He's playing people who are better than you which means he's earning more points than you.
This season was also a short one (a little over 6 weeks) which means the bonus pool is smaller at around 552. Your 567 points -- or 15 adjusted points -- are barely treading water. You must be playing people around the Diamond-Master border while that other guy is playing mid-high Master opponents with his 550+ adjusted points.
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On October 30 2012 06:31 Mura19 wrote:
You don't understand anything what I'm saying... I only say that not normal to get the same points than other guy played 1000 games more than you with the same ratio win/loss.
Win/loss ratio is meaningless until you get to the extreme high end of master league, where there simply aren't enough players on at any given time to get you a game with someone of equal skill. Matchmaking tries as hard as it possibly can to get your likelihood of a win or a loss to 50%.
The reason that win/loss ratio meant something in ICCUP is twofold:
First, when the ladder resets (which happens frequently) everyone starts at the bottom, so better players will win a lot more games getting up to their level.
Second, you pick your own opponents, so better players most likely tend to pick players at their level or lower because there are more of them around.
Both of these factors mean that win/loss ratio goes up steadily with a player's skill.
Blizzard, instead, went for a system that tries its best to match you vs. opponents of equal skill (which is measured by their statistical estimate of how likely you are to beat each other. Equal skill = 50% chance of a win, 50% chance of a loss for any given game.) The vast majority of players have win/loss ratios around 50/50.
This is certainly the fairest way to make matches, because it spreads the wins and losses around as evenly as possible. It means that win/loss ratio doesn't mean anything, though, until you're in the extreme high or low end of the ladder where the system usually just can't find you a very good match.
You and the 1000+ point guy at #1 may have similar wins and losses, but because the system knows you're worse than him, it matches you against worse opponents and gives you points in such a way that you can't ever catch up.
Once again, the only way to catch up is to improve how well you're playing. You're not catching up because you're not playing as well. Or, to put it another way, if he were playing the people you were, he would beat them a lot more than you do. If you were playing the people he was, you'd lose a lot more.
Automated matchmaking and ladder resets retaining your matchmaking rating mean that win/loss just isn't a useful number. But that's fine, it means the automated matchmaking is doing its job of ensuring maximum fairness for everybody.
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On October 30 2012 01:38 Mura19 wrote:
When I play SC2 and I'm favored, I feel like ''F#$% my life'' because whatever I win or loss I feel bad because I know I will won like +5 points or -20 points for loss and probably won't be a easy match. In ICCUP I feel always good because I know whatever I loss or win, the points I gain or loss will be correct for the effort I do.
Someone else feel like that when favored at SC2?
No. Simply because this thing is meaningless. I stopped caring about that like 2 months after the release of sc2. And so should you. If you see yourself favored, that means blizz is simply trying to adjust your level to where you truely belongs. It's accurate enough, so i don't get why you'd be upset really.
Tbh I've almost never paid attention to that. I was always concerned about their race than anything else really.
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When does the gm league start this season?
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I am really confused. I have played 85 games this season, and I have won 63 of them that gives an win percentage at 74%. I have 787 points. But I am still not promoted, I thought that i would have been in Master league by now.. Does someone have an answer to this?
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On November 08 2012 05:53 AyaaLa wrote:
I am really confused. I have played 85 games this season, and I have won 63 of them that gives an win percentage at 74%. I have 787 points. But I am still not promoted, I thought that i would have been in Master league by now.. Does someone have an answer to this?
If you're in Diamond league I'm guessing you have been promoted already, since sc2ranks has nobody close to 787 points on EU in Diamond.
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United States12235 Posts
On November 08 2012 07:03 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:53 AyaaLa wrote:
I am really confused. I have played 85 games this season, and I have won 63 of them that gives an win percentage at 74%. I have 787 points. But I am still not promoted, I thought that i would have been in Master league by now.. Does someone have an answer to this? If you're in Diamond league I'm guessing you have been promoted already, since sc2ranks has nobody close to 787 points on EU in Diamond.
Nah, this is his profile:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1114684/1/AyaLaa/ladder/109087#current-rank
787 points with 63 wins and 85 games played (presumably all 1v1).
SC2ranks has him a little out of date here at 563 points: http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1114684/AyaLaa
I don't have an EU account so I can't look at your opponent history in detail, so I suggest doing that on your own. If you've been playing against Master-level opponents for a while then it's probably inevitable.
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Okey thanks. I have been beating mid-high masters 60% of the time so I thought it was a bit weird.
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Burned again by assuming sc2ranks is up to date!! :D When will I learn.
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On November 08 2012 08:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 07:03 Lysenko wrote:On November 08 2012 05:53 AyaaLa wrote:
I am really confused. I have played 85 games this season, and I have won 63 of them that gives an win percentage at 74%. I have 787 points. But I am still not promoted, I thought that i would have been in Master league by now.. Does someone have an answer to this? If you're in Diamond league I'm guessing you have been promoted already, since sc2ranks has nobody close to 787 points on EU in Diamond. Nah, this is his profile: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1114684/1/AyaLaa/ladder/109087#current-rank787 points with 63 wins and 85 games played (presumably all 1v1). SC2ranks has him a little out of date here at 563 points: http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1114684/AyaLaaI don't have an EU account so I can't look at your opponent history in detail, so I suggest doing that on your own. If you've been playing against Master-level opponents for a while then it's probably inevitable.
I did take a quick look at his in-game profile. At least for 40 last matches he has been exclusively been matched against master players (randomly checked some 10 to 20 opponents). At the moment his typical opponents seem to be around 300 to 350 adjusted point master players. He has been in master MMR range for some time at least based on his opponents.
He is winning most of his matches (record for last 40 matches was 38-2). I wonder if his account is being leveled or he is not the original owner as this is not normal level rise based on the history of that account.
But Blizzard somehow changed the stabilization criteria for promotions/demotions last season. E.g. there were lots of reports how accounts, which MMR's were tanked, were not demoted. Maybe he is not stabile enough for promotion as he almost only wins & his MMR is skyrocketing up. Excalibur_z: have you heard any details about these changes?
It would be interesting to know how high the MMR tool would rate him at the moment...
Edit: After our discussion here Ayalaa lost 4 in a row and won the fifth game and was promoted to master (64 wins - 26 loses) on 2012-11-09.
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United States12235 Posts
I asked about that a couple of months ago when Season 9 went live but didn't receive a response. In any event, that "overshoot" rule is probably gone, but of course it's difficult to determine whether it's actually gone or if there's just some other factor at work (like "knowing" when you're throwing games or getting free wins).
AyaLaa, I would advise trying out the MMR Tool just to see what it says. The values won't be perfect because breakpoints can change at the start of a new season, but fortunately the MMR values themselves are mostly irrelevant when the actual goal of the test is to see whether he's stabilizing or continuing to rise.
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On November 08 2012 05:53 AyaaLa wrote:
I am really confused. I have played 85 games this season, and I have won 63 of them that gives an win percentage at 74%. I have 787 points. But I am still not promoted, I thought that i would have been in Master league by now.. Does someone have an answer to this?
There are a lot of things that could factor into this, but it sounds like a spot in Grandmasters isn't open.
GM isn't something that is easy to obtain, effort-wise. You need to devote a lot of time into games. Check your sc2ranks, if you are not #1 masters in your region then you probably won't get GM for some time.
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He's trying to get promoted from diamond to masters I think.
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Is anyone aware of the new ladder offsets now that tiers are removed? I haven't seen them anywhere but I assume if the old ones were figured out it should be possible for new ones too.
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EPT
