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On January 30 2011 11:09 Smurphy wrote:
To me, watching the game without that information available at critical moments is like watching American football if you were never able to know the down and distance. I'm not able to follow the game nor understand why the players are doing what they are doing when key information isn't being shown. I don't feel more tension because I do not know everything. I feel frustration when I am denied knowing why a strategy is or is not being used.
Imagine watching American football if it was cut so you would just see the ball snapped and a play occur but you wouldn't know what down it was nor how far it was to the first down. I suspect it would be like watching some obvious action and tension but not really understanding what is going on. That is how I felt today. I can't watch that.
Then imagine watching american football this way. You see distance, speed of runner and the defence range and their speed (sry im not american football fan so bear with wrong words). All that data shown from the beginning of the action will point out that there is no way of preventing the score...
Will you enjoy watching it then?
Ok now for some more familiar sport... soccer.
Penalty kick. Imagine a supercomputer analysing the data from couple of cameras. Like the projected power of shoot, the elevation, ball curve. And all of this updated and displayed live. Not to mention the probable reaction of the goal keeper.
Will you still find it entertaining by knowing in 1-5 second before it happen a outcome?
Sometimes less information is better for viewers.
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People in this forum would most likely want to learn/copy/fail mimic the builds pros do. Therefore we as a group would like to have these analysis on. But what we don't often look at, it's like watching an American football game with playbook displayed on screen. Or watch a baseball game with pitch-by-pitch constantly on the overlay. So please consider spectator value of e-sports.
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I'm not voting since the choices are all in black and white, I think the casters would do well to check Army and Income every now and then and comment on it like when someone takes a fastexpand, instead of just saying player A fastexpanded and got superior income, actually showing the income difference. Aswell as looking at the army tab to make sure you catch both players entire armies, so you don't miss stuff. Production is pretty much the casters job anyway so i definitly say ney to any need of showing it, all it will cause is people complaining like "he missed that" and generaly bringing more attention to what hte casters misses and I don't see this to be a good thing. Could be fun to check the apm time to time aswell. (It's not important but pretty neat)
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On January 30 2011 22:48 Frankon wrote:
Then imagine watching american football this way. You see distance, speed of runner and the defence range and their speed (sry im not american football fan so bear with wrong words). All that data shown from the beginning of the action will point out that there is no way of preventing the score...
Will you enjoy watching it then?
Ok now for some more familiar sport... soccer.
Penalty kick. Imagine a supercomputer analysing the data from couple of cameras. Like the projected power of shoot, the elevation, ball curve. And all of this updated and displayed live. Not to mention the probable reaction of the goal keeper.
Will you still find it entertaining by knowing in 1-5 second before it happen a outcome?
Sometimes less information is better for viewers.
I don't agree that production tabs and the like are the equivalent of those kind of statistics. Those show what will happen while SC2 is only showing what is happening and add statistics beyond what people would normally know.
Not showing the production tab for example is like only showing half the field on TV, even though the players and the spectators at the stadium can see the whole field. Production gives context to what players are doing and adds anticipation and suspense rather than just the surprise of hiding information.
The best solution would be a spectator mode so people can choose on their own what to see, but until then hiding information takes away more emotion than it adds.
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Imo they were most necessary when they weren't shown all the time and the camera missed important stuff going on because Tasteless had to control both the camera and comment on the things happening.
When someone else started moving the camera around he started quite bad, but once he got used to it and knew how to handle everything and what to look for he shows key tech structures and important upgrades and stuff like that almost all the time at very good (fast) timings. I think it's highly situational if production tab should be shown or shouldn't be shown, because it depends on the observer. If the observer doesn't miss key things and knows what the audience has to see (without feeling betrayed) and what might be a cool tool to build up some suspense and surprise elements then it's fine to hide the tabs. If he's not comfortable or good at doing that they should always show the tabs.
Health Bars should be on.
Income tab is pretty useless in Terran matchups because of mules, if they saved up 3 or 4 mules after a fight the income seems MUCH higher although it's only a short duration. Worker count should be referred to quite often though.
That's my opinion.
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Even the best observer can't watch everything. Even if they could no one wants to see the observer check if that building in the corner is a supply depot or a fusion core.
Even though I support as much information as possible, health bars can obstruct so much that I don't think they should be on by default, not even all pros have them on. They should be used to illustrate how much damage is taken at certain times, not all the time since its easy to turn them on when needed. Selecting the units also shows the same information without taking up space on the screen.
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Canada1637 Posts
I don't really see how people can argue its better for the spectator to have less information, sure the health bars can be abit intrusive but I mean, I'd rather be aware that 12 ultralisks are in production and be thinking Holy Shit, how much damage can this Terran do before these ultras get out and crush his army? Instead of basically having no idea what's going on.
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All tabs are fine to show, except the Unit Tabs. It's really bad showing the audience who has more supply/larger army value, since the viewrs focus too much on that, and not what they see on the screen. It really just doesn't make it as exciting. Show other tabs if you're talking about them. Leave it on production tab.
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On January 31 2011 04:33 Adebisi wrote:
I don't really see how people can argue its better for the spectator to have less information, sure the health bars can be abit intrusive but I mean, I'd rather be aware that 12 ultralisks are in production and be thinking Holy Shit, how much damage can this Terran do before these ultras get out and crush his army? Instead of basically having no idea what's going on.
imagine the same situation but this time you dont know 12 ultras are making.
"X might lose the game, Y is stomping all over his nat! guess we... OMG 12 ULTRAS COMING FOR THE RESCUE CLEANING UP THE WHOLE ARMY! WHATS GONNA HAPPEN NOW?!?!?"
tons of excitement.
both has advantages and disadvantages. i dont prefer any , both ahs to be well done and it totally depends on the situation and personal taste.
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I didn't realize the "Korean style" gave less information. From what I've seen, the Korean observer makes great use of the tabs. They have the APM tab in the beginning, they show the army/resources/income tabs at the right times, and the production tab most other times. They show certain players' vision whenever it's important whether someone saw a key tech building or if a dropship flew by. I feel like I understand whatever point the Korean commentators are trying to make without knowing any Korean at all just by watching the tabs.
The Korean observers also have a pretty decent minimap awareness, and don't miss as much as some of the other commentators out there.
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Production Tab on is really zzzzz
On January 31 2011 04:59 Leeto wrote:
I didn't realize the "Korean style" gave less information. From what I've seen, the Korean observer makes great use of the tabs. They have the APM tab in the beginning, they show the army/resources/income tabs at the right times, and the production tab most other times. They show certain players' vision whenever it's important whether someone saw a key tech building or if a dropship flew by. I feel like I understand whatever point the Korean commentators are trying to make without knowing any Korean at all just by watching the tabs.
The Korean observers also have a pretty decent minimap awareness, and don't miss as much as some of the other commentators out there.
Korean style is referrer to korean sc:bw stream/obsing.
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the issue is more like certain casters are kinda bad at sc2 to the point they dont have enough apm/minimap awareness/overall sc2 knowledge to keep with the flow of the game
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EPT
