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Hello TL!
Over in the SC2 Tourney forum we were having a mini-discussion in the TL Open #11 thread. You see, in the finals, there were several complaints about the casting like not having the production tab open and not showing the hitpoints of crucial units and structures at certain times. A couple other people noted that they liked not being shown everything since, in the Korean style, it added more flair and drama to the game that made it more enjoyable to watch.
What do you think, TL?
Poll: How much info should be shown in casts?Quite a bit. Production tab, important unit hitpoints, etc. (291) 71% Limited, Korean-style to add suspense and drama. (120) 29% 411 total votes Your vote: How much info should be shown in casts? (Vote): Quite a bit. Production tab, important unit hitpoints, etc.
(Vote): Limited, Korean-style to add suspense and drama.
But no, you say, there are only certain things that I want to see! Well, good sir or madam, choose which of these popular options you would like!
Poll: Production TabOn (157) 87% Off (23) 13% 180 total votes Your vote: Production Tab (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
Poll: Army TabOff (95) 63% On (55) 37% 150 total votes Your vote: Army Tab (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
Poll: Income TabOn (96) 71% Off (40) 29% 136 total votes Your vote: Income Tab (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
Poll: APM TabOff (121) 79% On (32) 21% 153 total votes Your vote: APM Tab (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
And, finally, how do you like your health bar settings?
Poll: Health BarOn when selected (127) 71% Always on (45) 25% Always off (6) 3% 178 total votes Your vote: Health Bar (Vote): Always on
(Vote): On when selected
(Vote): Always off
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Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown.
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I was actually thinking about this quite recently. I remembered this bw game of EffOrt vs Stork on Outsider where I thought EffOrt was about to die but then he suddenly exploded with like 8 ultralisks and went on to win the game. I thought it was so cool and dramatic. But the way sc2 works, with things like the production tab, it kinda ruins these kinds of moments.
Its so much less epic for a bunch of ultras to pop out and save the day if you watched their progress for like 30 seconds in the production tab.
Edit: Proofreading, i should learn to do that before I hit post. :/
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On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown.
These tools are great for analyzing a game.
But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting.
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It doesn't add suspense or drama if I can't see Health Bars / Production tabs.
It just frigging annoys me more than anything. Not having turned on health bars is the worst. Not making use of the production tab comes right after that.
Just being able to see the production tab means I can follow everything that's going on almost perfectly just from that. Income tab is important too, but just at times not permanently.
And well the situations where I'd like to see the unit tab is rare. I mean I can estimate all the infos it displays anyways. Especially when I know how high the production rate of the players is and... well I got eyes.
Edit:
On January 30 2011 08:19 scion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown. These tools are great for analyzing a game. But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting.
I really fail to see how that makes things more exciting -.-
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Casting live games are not for analysis but for entertaining the spectators. Tabs should be shown temporarily only if there no action happening anywhere, or if the information is relevant to the discussion.
Same goes with showing health/energy bars.
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On January 30 2011 08:17 Bibbit wrote:
Its so much less epic for a bunch of ultras to pop out and save the day if you watched their progress for like 30 seconds in the production tab.
It's epic the moment you notice Ultras on the production tab, and even more tense having to wait 30 seconds to see whether they will be in time/manage to save the day or not
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when you can see the health bar, it makes it even more exiting when a tense moment is all about destroying a low hp building/unit, but at the cost of risks.
which could result in a cheer/relief/boooo/awesome moment
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I have to side with turning them off here, as insightful into their play as it is, people shouldnt be able to just copy the builds from the gom vods
it has a side effect of making commentators more exciting and look more gosu
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High ground advantage and now this... I feel like we're in the first week of sc2 beta again 
Things like this should be and will always depend on the style of the caster. While Food and the harvester count are essential information, the caster can also just "tell" the audience instead of showing...
I prefer less stuff on the screen, mostly because on 8/10 streams you can't read the unitcounts anyways (in the Unit/Harvestertab) but i really appreciate it if the caster uses the production tab in "critical" situations like a push "waiting" for stim or lingspeed.
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I do like the tabs, production especially. Since that tab, along with the minimap, allows me to keep tabs on what the players are doing. Even if the observer is looking at something I'm currently not too concerned with. It's especially nice when watching zergs since you can see how many drones/combat units the player is making in reaction to what he sees.
That said I still like being completely absorbed watching some battle, then the obs pans back and it's like (hypophetical example) OMG CARRIER TRANSITON. And everyone screams like the korean fangirls we are. =) So I wouldn't mind having them hidden most of the time either. However I am going to put in my vote for using tabs Quite a bit, since I love having as comprehensive an overview of the match as I can.
Edit: forgot about healthbars, while I use them all the time when playing I prefer having them turned off when watching. Unless there's a massive battle going on, in which case it's the best thing in the world. =P
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It's all personal preference, I think it's really up to the specific caster/observer and how they feel they should handle it. My preference is a little bit of both
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On January 30 2011 08:21 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:17 Bibbit wrote:
Its so much less epic for a bunch of ultras to pop out and save the day if you watched their progress for like 30 seconds in the production tab.
It's epic the moment you notice Ultras on the production tab, and even more tense having to wait 30 seconds to see whether they will be in time/manage to save the day or not
Yep exactly, or imagine, the Zerg canceling the Ultras and making mass Mutalisks instead. (if he has enough eggs left and completely theoretical you know).
Or the moment you see, "darn he just canceled his Nexus... it's a TRAP! 4 gate incoming!!!"
So much more exciting.
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United Kingdom38256 Posts
Limited information for entertainment casting is superior imo due to the extra drama and suspense you can get, though I think some info like hp on units is pretty crucial at times for a sense of OMG unit x is going to get sniped!
If I want to be seeing timings and specifics of a build as it happens I'd rather check a replay.
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I usually fixate on a production tab, but I think that kind of takes away some of the suspense.
If I want to analyse exactly where a game went wrong i can always download the replay so yea spice it up a bit. Also when we dont know everything it makes us less critical of what players are doing and reminds us that players have fog of war.
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I really like it when the production tab is on, it really helps me follow the game. I think even with the production tab open there's still the so much variables and uncertainty in the game that allows for excitement.
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i would go for limited korean style...
We all want the esport to grow... The best way is to make it enjoyable for the watchers.
Bellow is TLO open spoiler .. be warned.
+ Show Spoiler +Lets give some example. Today's TLO final. . We could see both players going for DT's in one game . And it wasn't much of a suspension.
Now imagine this. Wheat concentrates commentating on what is happening on TLO ramp. Get into a discussion with Wolf on how it would be possible to break the ramp. Well wolf would be cheating by having production tab open. Now TLO makes a halucinated phoenix and go and scout. WHeat follows the phoenix with TLO vision on. We see he discovers DT shrine being warped. And go immediately for forge+cannons.This would be a nice tension for viewers to guess what would be faster DT's or the canons...
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Maybe it's just me, but suspense has nothing to do with it. I like to think about the game as it's going. Without the production/army/income tabs, it's tough to have a real sense of what's happening at any given time. I don't want to just know the limited information the observer is showing me. I'm only interested if I can get a decent idea of what's going on.
I have no interest in seeing Ultras pop out when I didn't even realize the Zerg was on hive tech...
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On January 30 2011 08:23 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I have to side with turning them off here, as insightful into their play as it is, people shouldnt be able to just copy the builds from the gom vods
it has a side effect of making commentators more exciting and look more gosu
1) You don't need the tabs at all to copy a build. That's basically a non-issue in this topic.
2) Why is copying bad? Isn't it cool to see new popular builds?
3) Wouldn't stopping the propagation of builds cause the overall "metagame" (sorry to those of you who hate that word) to slow down and cause everything to "develop" slower and therefore make some things less exciting?
Edit: I should clarify just to be sure. Yes, those tabs can make it easier, but, at the same time, I know that I've copied a few builds without them, too. If you really want to do it, you'll be able to -- at the critical moments in a build order, you're probably just seeing the bases in the cast most of the time so it's not hard to figure it all out.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2011 08:20 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:It doesn't add suspense or drama if I can't see Health Bars / Production tabs. It just frigging annoys me more than anything. Not having turned on health bars is the worst. Not making use of the production tab comes right after that. Just being able to see the production tab means I can follow everything that's going on almost perfectly just from that. Income tab is important too, but just at times not permanently. And well the situations where I'd like to see the unit tab is rare. I mean I can estimate all the infos it displays anyways. Especially when I know how high the production rate of the players is and... well I got eyes. Edit: Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:19 scion wrote:On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown. These tools are great for analyzing a game. But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting. I really fail to see how that makes things more exciting -.- Okay... Let me propose an example here: A protoss player is making a heavy groundbased push against a zerg player in the late-game. You have seen an ultralisk cavern go up and the eggs are taking a long time to morph. What is most exciting in this case: a) the production tab is open allowing the commentator to pause smoking his cigar for three seconds to remark that as the ultralisks will clearly be done in 3 seconds, the zerg is in no danger what-so-ever and will in fact be able to win the game in just about 45 seconds. He then proceeds to finish up his newspaper and hands it over to his co-caster who makes a smug remark about Obama's last speech. b) The commentators are screaming at the top of their lungs as great storms go on top oif the zerg army and the toss pushes towards the third of the zerg, and right as he begins pounding the hatchery, 10 ultras hatch simultaneously, surrounding and stomping the gateway-collosus push.
tl;dr: I hope to god you were sarcastic, but a sarcastic font sadly does not yet exist. From now on I propose that the following brackets be used when statement is sarcastic: [SA][/SA]
EDIT: Actually disregard my post, except for the part about sarcasm. This thread leaves me very confused as to what people are actually saying.
Example:
On January 30 2011 08:24 Vimsey wrote:
I usually fixate on a production tab, but I think that kind of takes away some of the suspense.
If I want to analyse exactly where a game went wrong i can always download the replay so yea spice it up a bit. Also when we dont know everything it makes us less critical of what players are doing and reminds us that players have fog of war.
What is the actual meaning of this statement?! Is this guy being ironic saying "I don't care about the game or even the minimap for that matter, I just want to see the tiny bars complete and then disappear"? Or is he really so emotionless that he lacks the ability to care about the players or the outcome of the game? Or is he just making a contradiction for the jiggles: "I like the little bars, remove them"?
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@slivaz Yeah, I agree . . . at least like that. While I enjoyed the way you wrote that and found it hilarious, it's an overexaggeration. I don't think people are that accurate on the timings yet and there is still a tension (i.e. the previous spoiler DT/cannon thing in an unnamed event/series where we could see it -- remember the clutch lift that no one expected? It wasn't just an automatic, "oh, everything will be fine").
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Actually, I've thought about this several times when watching the GSL.
My conclusion was that I think they should stick to the resources tab (mineral, gas, supply numbers) and try to stay away from the production tab as much as possible. Good observing can give the viewer information like "how close is upgrade/building X to completion?" and it just seems too revealing to have the production tab open. It basically gives up the players' exact build orders IMO.
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On January 30 2011 08:32 slivaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:20 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:It doesn't add suspense or drama if I can't see Health Bars / Production tabs. It just frigging annoys me more than anything. Not having turned on health bars is the worst. Not making use of the production tab comes right after that. Just being able to see the production tab means I can follow everything that's going on almost perfectly just from that. Income tab is important too, but just at times not permanently. And well the situations where I'd like to see the unit tab is rare. I mean I can estimate all the infos it displays anyways. Especially when I know how high the production rate of the players is and... well I got eyes. Edit: On January 30 2011 08:19 scion wrote:On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown. These tools are great for analyzing a game. But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting. I really fail to see how that makes things more exciting -.- Okay... Let me propose an example here: A protoss player is making a heavy groundbased push against a zerg player in the late-game. You have seen an ultralisk cavern go up and the eggs are taking a long time to morph. What is most exciting in this case: a) the production tab is open allowing the commentator to pause smoking his cigar for three seconds to remark that as the ultralisks will clearly be done in 3 seconds, the zerg is in no danger what-so-ever and will in fact be able to win the game in just about 45 seconds. He then proceeds to finish up his newspaper and hands it over to his co-caster who makes a smug remark about Obama's last speech. b) The commentators are screaming at the top of their lungs as great storms go on top oif the zerg army and the toss pushes towards the third of the zerg, and right as he begins pounding the hatchery, 10 ultras hatch simultaneously, surrounding and stomping the gateway-collosus push. tl;dr: I hope to god you were sarcastic, but a sarcastic font sadly does not yet exist. From now on I propose that the following brackets be used when statement is sarcastic: [SA][/SA]
A.
I mean this with absolutely no sarcasm. It isn't even close. If you're interested in watching a small portion of the total action at any given time and having no idea what the players must be thinking/planning, you can put an overlay or piece of paper over the top left of the screen. I'm watching to be impressed by the skill of the players, their decision making, and their timing. The production tab greatly enhances the viewing experience.
[That sounded a little rude after I read it. I didn't mean any offense.]
I really don't know what's exciting about your example.
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Personally don't really care, it depends on my mood.
Sometimes I just want to watch the casts as a movie, with as little on screen as possible and just enjoy it, like a sport.
Other times when I'm actually in my nerdy mood I like having all the info possible on the screen, mostly if the casters are talking about different stuff.
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I don't really like having too much information, it kinda kills the suspense.
GSL4 finals spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
It was absolutely painful to watch MKP's stim upgrade finish and then for MKP to wait 15-20 seconds outside MVP's base attacking maybe 2-3 seconds after MVP's stim upgrade finished. I had too much information, knowing that if he attacked after MVP's stim finished he would loose.
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On January 30 2011 08:38 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:32 slivaz wrote:On January 30 2011 08:20 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:It doesn't add suspense or drama if I can't see Health Bars / Production tabs. It just frigging annoys me more than anything. Not having turned on health bars is the worst. Not making use of the production tab comes right after that. Just being able to see the production tab means I can follow everything that's going on almost perfectly just from that. Income tab is important too, but just at times not permanently. And well the situations where I'd like to see the unit tab is rare. I mean I can estimate all the infos it displays anyways. Especially when I know how high the production rate of the players is and... well I got eyes. Edit: On January 30 2011 08:19 scion wrote:On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown. These tools are great for analyzing a game. But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting. I really fail to see how that makes things more exciting -.- Okay... Let me propose an example here: A protoss player is making a heavy groundbased push against a zerg player in the late-game. You have seen an ultralisk cavern go up and the eggs are taking a long time to morph. What is most exciting in this case: a) the production tab is open allowing the commentator to pause smoking his cigar for three seconds to remark that as the ultralisks will clearly be done in 3 seconds, the zerg is in no danger what-so-ever and will in fact be able to win the game in just about 45 seconds. He then proceeds to finish up his newspaper and hands it over to his co-caster who makes a smug remark about Obama's last speech. b) The commentators are screaming at the top of their lungs as great storms go on top oif the zerg army and the toss pushes towards the third of the zerg, and right as he begins pounding the hatchery, 10 ultras hatch simultaneously, surrounding and stomping the gateway-collosus push. tl;dr: I hope to god you were sarcastic, but a sarcastic font sadly does not yet exist. From now on I propose that the following brackets be used when statement is sarcastic: [SA][/SA] A. I mean this with absolutely no sarcasm. It isn't even close. If you're interested in watching a small portion of the total action at any given time and having no idea what the players must be thinking/planning, you can put an overlay or piece of paper over the top left of the screen. I'm watching to be impressed by the skill of the players, their decision making, and their timing. The production tab greatly enhances the viewing experience. [That sounded a little rude after I read it. I didn't mean any offense.] I really don't know what's exciting about your example.
No offense taken. I just watched the OSL finals today and now I really miss the good old days :S
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On January 30 2011 08:32 slivaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:24 Vimsey wrote:
I usually fixate on a production tab, but I think that kind of takes away some of the suspense.
If I want to analyse exactly where a game went wrong i can always download the replay so yea spice it up a bit. Also when we dont know everything it makes us less critical of what players are doing and reminds us that players have fog of war. What is the actual meaning of this statement?! Is this guy being ironic saying "I don't care about the game or even the minimap for that matter, I just want to see the tiny bars complete and then disappear"? Or is he really so emotionless that he lacks the ability to care about the players or the outcome of the game? Or is he just making a contradiction for the jiggles: "I like the little bars, remove them"?
"this guy" here.
You seem to be ranting at the world, I never mentioned wanting to watch healthbars. In fact I was advocating not having as much information. Maybe you should read more carefully and worry less about misunderstood sarcasm.
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I like production tab and all the things blizzard gave us, because in GSL we don't get access to the replays so the only way we can learn from the pros are through the stream and VODs. Any information we can get like what they are producing at what time, is very helpful for the newbies as well as a the pros who just want to know what the koreans are up to. I don't think builds should be secretive and even if that's not the case, I still don't think there should be any mystery or suspense when you have the option to see what exactly they are doing.
It works both ways, no production tab, etc. brings more drama and surprise, with production tab, etc. you are better able to learn from these guys but also you can theorycraft with your friends as the moment happens to see what they may do and what the koreans train of thought is, to me that's a lot better than suspense.
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It depends:
While watch MLG I'd just like to be entertained, though I wish they wouldnt show the production tab, just to make popping collossi more dramatic.
But in little tourneys analytic casts are far more welcome.
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If there were an option for it, I would have voted for hitpoint bars on, but production tab off. That would almost look like we're seeing the game as both players see it, just with vision. Seeing hitpoints makes it so much more dynamic, as in "oh god focus the OTHER medivac, it has like 10 health" or "wow one storm would kill that entire army, great use of forcing stim" or "those colossi are all about to die if one forcefield is misplaced"... Showing the production tab is nice as far as making it easier to follow the game, but ideally whoever's controlling the camera should just watch the minimap and accomplish the same thing by knowing what they're doing. At least in tournament games -- if you're just some guy commentating a replay, feel free to put everything on.
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use of production, income, unit tabs are right up there with good commentary and not missing action as important tools for a caster to have
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Edit: I'm an idiot and hit quote instead of edit. Sorry!
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
but they should do the 1FPVOD for few seconds like in BW, this way we can apresiate how hard is to micro or macro whatever
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in 90% of the time i'd love to see the production tab. Only some times for checking the resources/income i'd like to see something else. Normally in my opinion the more we see the better it is
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On January 30 2011 08:50 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:32 slivaz wrote:On January 30 2011 08:24 Vimsey wrote:
I usually fixate on a production tab, but I think that kind of takes away some of the suspense.
If I want to analyse exactly where a game went wrong i can always download the replay so yea spice it up a bit. Also when we dont know everything it makes us less critical of what players are doing and reminds us that players have fog of war. What is the actual meaning of this statement?! Is this guy being ironic saying "I don't care about the game or even the minimap for that matter, I just want to see the tiny bars complete and then disappear"? Or is he really so emotionless that he lacks the ability to care about the players or the outcome of the game? Or is he just making a contradiction for the jiggles: "I like the little bars, remove them"? "this guy" here. You seem to be ranting at the world, I never mentioned wanting to watch healthbars. In fact I was advocating not having as much information. Maybe you should read more carefully and worry less about misunderstood sarcasm.
I wasn't taking about the health bars. I was talking about the little bars in the production tab that displays the progress of whatever item it is associated with. When an item is completed, it's associated bar disappears. You said you "usually fixate on a production tab". Full stop.
On topic: There is a particular use of the income tab I find very weird. When a player makes a drop or a harasment tactic work, killing around 20 harvesters and the commentators go "Oooh" and "What a great play!", and then proceeds to open the income tab to go "Look at those numbers! He is twenty harvesters behind!", it just seems so redundant.
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On January 30 2011 09:30 2GRe-Play- wrote:
but they should do the 1FPVOD for few seconds like in BW, this way we can apresiate how hard is to micro or macro whatever
Agreed, I love that effect when they give a 5 second cut to each players' cam in the middle of a huge battle. It really makes the game seem way more exciting.
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On January 30 2011 08:20 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:It doesn't add suspense or drama if I can't see Health Bars / Production tabs. It just frigging annoys me more than anything. Not having turned on health bars is the worst. Not making use of the production tab comes right after that. Just being able to see the production tab means I can follow everything that's going on almost perfectly just from that. Income tab is important too, but just at times not permanently. And well the situations where I'd like to see the unit tab is rare. I mean I can estimate all the infos it displays anyways. Especially when I know how high the production rate of the players is and... well I got eyes. Edit: Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:19 scion wrote:On January 30 2011 08:15 Plaxy wrote:
Blizzard gave us these great tools to use not to shy from. Every tab has its time in place to be shown. These tools are great for analyzing a game. But if you just want to sit back and enjoy the game, I think there should be some suspense factor to make it exciting. I really fail to see how that makes things more exciting -.-
Really, if you wanted to follow a game that perfectly, you can just watch replay instead of watching a cast.
Production tab really takes away the suspense in my opinion because you can see what's coming before it actually happens. Commentators are focusing on a battle and you already know what kind of unit/upgrade a player is preparing at the back.
It's "fun" to be surprised by sudden appearance of a fleet beacon in the back of the base. It's exciting to see zerg units suddenly flooding in after a battle is over.
I think this kind of limiting information suits better for casual viewers as well.
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On January 30 2011 09:45 SilverPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 09:30 2GRe-Play- wrote:
but they should do the 1FPVOD for few seconds like in BW, this way we can apresiate how hard is to micro or macro whatever Agreed, I love that effect when they give a 5 second cut to each players' cam in the middle of a huge battle. It really makes the game seem way more exciting.
Not sure why they don't do that, tbh. It's not even difficult in SC2.
1c pause 2c
--'
answer to op:
I'd prefer casters to keep resources up and have actually insight/awareness into what the players are doing. Any bronze player can tell you exactly what is happening by what's visible on the screen/production tab, but having someone who can tell you what a players strat is based on the first few minutes of the game [Artosis does this pretty well, as did IdrA when he cast with Jason Lee] is much more exciting to me.
Also in IdrA's group stage game against oGsEnsnare on XNC, knowing that 17 Ultras were going to pop a minute before they did removed any suspense from the match. There was no "Can IdrA's reinforcements crush the army before he gets rolled over?" It was just "IdrA has 17 ultras coming, the game is over."
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it's all in the choice of whoever is casting those game... just because a tab is available, doesn't mean we have to use it...
if you don't like it when casters just watch the game instead of utilizing these tools then don't watch them... or get a different caster....
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I don't mind a cast adding to the drama by not showing everything if and only if the replay is also available. Otherwise the spectators end up missing a lot of the game. Even when not hiding the casters can't show everything.
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The absolutely best thing in the world, I think, would be to somehow let people watching scroll through the casting bars at their leisure. Maybe not feasible, but it would be amazing. I hate when the production tab isn't up. in the first few days of this GSL, some of the games completely baffled me because would have no idea that, for instance, is was +2/+2 marines against +1/+0 mutalisks or that combat shields had only been finished by one person.
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The only thing I like to have sometimes open is the production tab, but thats only from a learning standpoint.
In tournaments, I like to see the action. Seeing everything else takes away from the gameplay, and ultimately lets it feel less like an epic battle and more like watching a replay to learn. When I'm watching a tournament, I want to see 2 pros duking it out and nothing else. I completely forget about strategies and just sit back and enjoy.
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If your interest is just to understand the game, then you're going to want a replay or a cast which is as close to a replay as possible (eg. production tab). But for the fans as a whole, no one has a better formula than what OGN is doing:
![[image loading]](http://c0848462.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/1070ac802e1e03c6a1bcfdb72e794a88.jpg)
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On January 30 2011 08:26 Frankon wrote: i would go for limited korean style... We all want the esport to grow... The best way is to make it enjoyable for the watchers. Bellow is TLO open spoiler .. be warned. + Show Spoiler +Lets give some example. Today's TLO final. . We could see both players going for DT's in one game . And it wasn't much of a suspension.
Now imagine this. Wheat concentrates commentating on what is happening on TLO ramp. Get into a discussion with Wolf on how it would be possible to break the ramp. Well wolf would be cheating by having production tab open. Now TLO makes a halucinated phoenix and go and scout. WHeat follows the phoenix with TLO vision on. We see he discovers DT shrine being warped. And go immediately for forge+cannons.This would be a nice tension for viewers to guess what would be faster DT's or the canons...
Damn.. this was the example I was gonna use xD
OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF. If you want to follow the game that intricately why don't you just watch a replay?
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Canada13389 Posts
I like the limited style during tournaments but a more full style when the replay is meant to teach something.
Seeing hit points at a critical time is cool but the production tab always open does kill the suspense sometimes. Seeing production during an instructional or not competitive game though is nice since it helps you to see and learn a build order in the early game and upgrade timings throughout
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Because of some comments, I'm going to add another poll in the OP that is specifically about tabs. I'm going to put in production, APM, income and army since those seem to be the popular ones. I'll also put in two options for health bars: all on or on when selected (i.e., you always see them or only see the ones on the unit(s) that the observer has selected at that time).
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seeing the unit healthbars on top of everything is a major turn off for me. I feel that its an example of when you have too much info, where the info actually replaces the actual action. Yes i may have more info over the battle with healthbars floating around, but I'm MISSING the actual battle! It just looks ugly to me imo, and I wish i could play without them on all the time, without having a disadvantage :/
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I don't care for the production tab at all since I never look at it, but I guess I can understand why some people might want. I don't like seeing the supply counts either because that can oftentimes be deceiving. It's best just to look at the screen and observe for yourself who's ahead and stuff and watch how things unfold. The only statistic that I find kind of useful to know is the number of harvesters each player has.
I don't care about hp bars either. The only time I would even consider seeing them is during a battle where micro is crucial such as blink stalkers, but even then, I don't mind just watching without the hp bars and seeing what happens.
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I simply cannot watch cast games when the casters ask rhetorical questions when the answer is on their screen or would be on their screen with one of the information tabs open. In the final game which is described in the opening post I would have turned off the game had it not ended at that point in time.
To me, watching the game without that information available at critical moments is like watching American football if you were never able to know the down and distance. I'm not able to follow the game nor understand why the players are doing what they are doing when key information isn't being shown. I don't feel more tension because I do not know everything. I feel frustration when I am denied knowing why a strategy is or is not being used.
Imagine watching American football if it was cut so you would just see the ball snapped and a play occur but you wouldn't know what down it was nor how far it was to the first down. I suspect it would be like watching some obvious action and tension but not really understanding what is going on. That is how I felt today. I can't watch that.
How that played out today, spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +In the final game DuckloadRa attacked into TLO's expansion. DuckloadRa had a force of Stalkers, Zealots and Sentries. One bunker was in front for TLO and he was scrapping together random troops. Hitpoints on the bunker were not shown at anypoint in time. Duckload threw down some forcefields around the bunker. However, there was still a decent space for SCVs and mules to repair. The SCVs and mules went to the bunker. The bunker was engaged. The bunker was obviously on fire. Then DuckloadRa just stopped attacking it. He started trying to walk by the bunker into the main.
What the ****.
It was on fire.
Was it almost dead?
Were the SCVs and Mules repairing it too fast?
What was inside the bunker?
Was the bunker empty?
Could he have finished it off with one more shot?
I would have known the answer to these questions had hitpoints been on.
If casters don't show relevant information at relevant times I cannot watch. I watched the Broodwar finals today. I had never watched a professional Brood War game before. At times during battles the camera would cut to faces in the crowd. Once it cut away at a critical moment when a unit was one shot away from dying and was being pursued. The game hung on this moment and the camera cut to the crowd. I turned it off. That frustration is what I felt watching the TSL today. Information that let me follow what was occurring was being denied.
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The polls are now up! If you haven't seen the OP in awhile, go back and make your voice heard!
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On January 30 2011 11:09 Smurphy wrote:I simply cannot watch cast games when the casters ask rhetorical questions when the answer is on their screen or would be on their screen with one of the information tabs open. In the final game which is described in the opening post I would have turned off the game had it not ended at that point in time. To me, watching the game without that information available at critical moments is like watching American football if you were never able to know the down and distance. I'm not able to follow the game nor understand why the players are doing what they are doing when key information isn't being shown. I don't feel more tension because I do not know everything. I feel frustration when I am denied knowing why a strategy is or is not being used. Imagine watching American football if it was cut so you would just see the ball snapped and a play occur but you wouldn't know what down it was nor how far it was to the first down. I suspect it would be like watching some obvious action and tension but not really understanding what is going on. That is how I felt today. I can't watch that. How that played out today, spoilers + Show Spoiler +In the final game DuckloadRa attacked into TLO's expansion. DuckloadRa had a force of Stalkers, Zealots and Sentries. One bunker was in front for TLO and he was scrapping together random troops. Hitpoints on the bunker were not shown at anypoint in time. Duckload threw down some forcefields around the bunker. However, there was still a decent space for SCVs and mules to repair. The SCVs and mules went to the bunker. The bunker was engaged. The bunker was obviously on fire. Then DuckloadRa just stopped attacking it. He started trying to walk by the bunker into the main.
What the ****.
It was on fire.
Was it almost dead?
Were the SCVs and Mules repairing it too fast?
What was inside the bunker?
Was the bunker empty?
Could he have finished it off with one more shot?
I would have known the answer to these questions had hitpoints been on. If casters don't show relevant information at relevant times I cannot watch. I watched the Broodwar finals today. I had never watched a professional Brood War game before. At times during battles the camera would cut to faces in the crowd. Once it cut away at a critical moment when a unit was one shot away from dying and was being pursued. The game hung on this moment and the camera cut to the crowd. I turned it off. That frustration is what I felt watching the TSL today. Information that let me follow what was occurring was being denied.
Your football analogy is excellent. I'm also really big on being able to see the lines, yards, downs, etc.
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I just want them to cycle through them at a mild pace. Keep coming back to the production and army tabs as home base and make sure to click on each player frequently so we can quickly see supply, unit upgrades and the like.
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Slowly cycling through important tabs like production and unit count, and income sometimes, is important.
No reason at all to have none of them ever showing. That's just annoying, and you can't really watch the ebb and flow of the game as well.
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Personally, I like the Korean style of commentating.
I'm reminded of an instance where Stork(?) was playing against Hiya(?) about a month ago where Stork warpped in a stargate. Kim Carrier began yelling "CARRIER CARRIER CARRIER" really loudly for a while, getting everyone all excited. However, we got Arbiters instead, thus adding a huge LOL factor.
However, there's a slight problem; GOMTV does not have Korean commentators, and thus, having them try to cast it Korean style (e.g. hidden tabs) does little for drama. What I wish we could get is first-person camera; it's always astounding to watch 250+ apm players do their thing.
So I say keep them production, supply, resource, and income tabs. However, we really do need better quality streams if we decide to keep the tabs; half the time I can't even read the them because the quality is so bad.
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On January 30 2011 09:43 slivaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 08:50 Vimsey wrote:On January 30 2011 08:32 slivaz wrote:On January 30 2011 08:24 Vimsey wrote:
I usually fixate on a production tab, but I think that kind of takes away some of the suspense.
If I want to analyse exactly where a game went wrong i can always download the replay so yea spice it up a bit. Also when we dont know everything it makes us less critical of what players are doing and reminds us that players have fog of war. What is the actual meaning of this statement?! Is this guy being ironic saying "I don't care about the game or even the minimap for that matter, I just want to see the tiny bars complete and then disappear"? Or is he really so emotionless that he lacks the ability to care about the players or the outcome of the game? Or is he just making a contradiction for the jiggles: "I like the little bars, remove them"? "this guy" here. You seem to be ranting at the world, I never mentioned wanting to watch healthbars. In fact I was advocating not having as much information. Maybe you should read more carefully and worry less about misunderstood sarcasm. I wasn't taking about the health bars. I was talking about the little bars in the production tab that displays the progress of whatever item it is associated with. When an item is completed, it's associated bar disappears. You said you "usually fixate on a production tab". Full stop. On topic: There is a particular use of the income tab I find very weird. When a player makes a drop or a harasment tactic work, killing around 20 harvesters and the commentators go "Oooh" and "What a great play!", and then proceeds to open the income tab to go "Look at those numbers! He is twenty harvesters behind!", it just seems so redundant.
I can tell you stopped reading after I said "I usually fixate". There is no full stop after I said that I finished the sentence by saying "but I think that kind of takes away some of the surprise". I also dont think its a good thing that I fixate on it at all. Fixate is not generally a positive word at all (for example you seem to have fixated on the first part of my opening sentence) so I dont know why you drew the conclusion you did from that. Also watching the production bar doesnt necessarily mean you are watching the little bars fill up.
Anyway on topic again: Yes although sometimes you think a player would be behind from a drop but then thats more because they havent told you how ahead he was before it.
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ive always had a love hate thing going with the health bars, especially in zerg matchups, because you want to see hp obviously when thers a fight going down, but when lings are swarming all over the place the mass of hp bars really kills the scene
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It's annoying not getting the information you want in real time to see how the game is going. When casters don't keep the production tab open, I feel like they're incompetent.
Hiding information doesn't increase flair. For example, not showing some drop coming on the minimap does not increase excitement. It just increases rage, because competent viewers actually watch the minimap as well, and see that kind of thing.
Also, showing HP bars emphasizes the micro of the players, or the lack thereof.
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There's a difference between not knowing when someone's ultras are coming out and not knowing that a drop has occurred.
HP bars may emphasize the micro of the players, but it's harder to see what is going on, and that would be a big problem.
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production tab is the most important imo and ppl show that one a lot. i only like to see the army tab to see supply counts (in the moments when the obs won't deselect one player's units/structures).
i don't think healthbars should be on, but i really wish observers would flash them at the appropriate times to give more info.
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One thing I hate is not showing most of the tabs and switching them up at least once in awhile.
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On January 30 2011 11:09 Smurphy wrote:
To me, watching the game without that information available at critical moments is like watching American football if you were never able to know the down and distance. I'm not able to follow the game nor understand why the players are doing what they are doing when key information isn't being shown. I don't feel more tension because I do not know everything. I feel frustration when I am denied knowing why a strategy is or is not being used.
Imagine watching American football if it was cut so you would just see the ball snapped and a play occur but you wouldn't know what down it was nor how far it was to the first down. I suspect it would be like watching some obvious action and tension but not really understanding what is going on. That is how I felt today. I can't watch that.
Then imagine watching american football this way. You see distance, speed of runner and the defence range and their speed (sry im not american football fan so bear with wrong words). All that data shown from the beginning of the action will point out that there is no way of preventing the score...
Will you enjoy watching it then?
Ok now for some more familiar sport... soccer.
Penalty kick. Imagine a supercomputer analysing the data from couple of cameras. Like the projected power of shoot, the elevation, ball curve. And all of this updated and displayed live. Not to mention the probable reaction of the goal keeper.
Will you still find it entertaining by knowing in 1-5 second before it happen a outcome?
Sometimes less information is better for viewers.
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People in this forum would most likely want to learn/copy/fail mimic the builds pros do. Therefore we as a group would like to have these analysis on. But what we don't often look at, it's like watching an American football game with playbook displayed on screen. Or watch a baseball game with pitch-by-pitch constantly on the overlay. So please consider spectator value of e-sports.
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I'm not voting since the choices are all in black and white, I think the casters would do well to check Army and Income every now and then and comment on it like when someone takes a fastexpand, instead of just saying player A fastexpanded and got superior income, actually showing the income difference. Aswell as looking at the army tab to make sure you catch both players entire armies, so you don't miss stuff. Production is pretty much the casters job anyway so i definitly say ney to any need of showing it, all it will cause is people complaining like "he missed that" and generaly bringing more attention to what hte casters misses and I don't see this to be a good thing. Could be fun to check the apm time to time aswell. (It's not important but pretty neat)
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On January 30 2011 22:48 Frankon wrote:
Then imagine watching american football this way. You see distance, speed of runner and the defence range and their speed (sry im not american football fan so bear with wrong words). All that data shown from the beginning of the action will point out that there is no way of preventing the score...
Will you enjoy watching it then?
Ok now for some more familiar sport... soccer.
Penalty kick. Imagine a supercomputer analysing the data from couple of cameras. Like the projected power of shoot, the elevation, ball curve. And all of this updated and displayed live. Not to mention the probable reaction of the goal keeper.
Will you still find it entertaining by knowing in 1-5 second before it happen a outcome?
Sometimes less information is better for viewers.
I don't agree that production tabs and the like are the equivalent of those kind of statistics. Those show what will happen while SC2 is only showing what is happening and add statistics beyond what people would normally know.
Not showing the production tab for example is like only showing half the field on TV, even though the players and the spectators at the stadium can see the whole field. Production gives context to what players are doing and adds anticipation and suspense rather than just the surprise of hiding information.
The best solution would be a spectator mode so people can choose on their own what to see, but until then hiding information takes away more emotion than it adds.
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Imo they were most necessary when they weren't shown all the time and the camera missed important stuff going on because Tasteless had to control both the camera and comment on the things happening.
When someone else started moving the camera around he started quite bad, but once he got used to it and knew how to handle everything and what to look for he shows key tech structures and important upgrades and stuff like that almost all the time at very good (fast) timings. I think it's highly situational if production tab should be shown or shouldn't be shown, because it depends on the observer. If the observer doesn't miss key things and knows what the audience has to see (without feeling betrayed) and what might be a cool tool to build up some suspense and surprise elements then it's fine to hide the tabs. If he's not comfortable or good at doing that they should always show the tabs.
Health Bars should be on.
Income tab is pretty useless in Terran matchups because of mules, if they saved up 3 or 4 mules after a fight the income seems MUCH higher although it's only a short duration. Worker count should be referred to quite often though.
That's my opinion.
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Even the best observer can't watch everything. Even if they could no one wants to see the observer check if that building in the corner is a supply depot or a fusion core.
Even though I support as much information as possible, health bars can obstruct so much that I don't think they should be on by default, not even all pros have them on. They should be used to illustrate how much damage is taken at certain times, not all the time since its easy to turn them on when needed. Selecting the units also shows the same information without taking up space on the screen.
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Canada1637 Posts
I don't really see how people can argue its better for the spectator to have less information, sure the health bars can be abit intrusive but I mean, I'd rather be aware that 12 ultralisks are in production and be thinking Holy Shit, how much damage can this Terran do before these ultras get out and crush his army? Instead of basically having no idea what's going on.
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All tabs are fine to show, except the Unit Tabs. It's really bad showing the audience who has more supply/larger army value, since the viewrs focus too much on that, and not what they see on the screen. It really just doesn't make it as exciting. Show other tabs if you're talking about them. Leave it on production tab.
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On January 31 2011 04:33 Adebisi wrote:
I don't really see how people can argue its better for the spectator to have less information, sure the health bars can be abit intrusive but I mean, I'd rather be aware that 12 ultralisks are in production and be thinking Holy Shit, how much damage can this Terran do before these ultras get out and crush his army? Instead of basically having no idea what's going on.
imagine the same situation but this time you dont know 12 ultras are making.
"X might lose the game, Y is stomping all over his nat! guess we... OMG 12 ULTRAS COMING FOR THE RESCUE CLEANING UP THE WHOLE ARMY! WHATS GONNA HAPPEN NOW?!?!?"
tons of excitement.
both has advantages and disadvantages. i dont prefer any , both ahs to be well done and it totally depends on the situation and personal taste.
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I didn't realize the "Korean style" gave less information. From what I've seen, the Korean observer makes great use of the tabs. They have the APM tab in the beginning, they show the army/resources/income tabs at the right times, and the production tab most other times. They show certain players' vision whenever it's important whether someone saw a key tech building or if a dropship flew by. I feel like I understand whatever point the Korean commentators are trying to make without knowing any Korean at all just by watching the tabs.
The Korean observers also have a pretty decent minimap awareness, and don't miss as much as some of the other commentators out there.
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Production Tab on is really zzzzz
On January 31 2011 04:59 Leeto wrote:
I didn't realize the "Korean style" gave less information. From what I've seen, the Korean observer makes great use of the tabs. They have the APM tab in the beginning, they show the army/resources/income tabs at the right times, and the production tab most other times. They show certain players' vision whenever it's important whether someone saw a key tech building or if a dropship flew by. I feel like I understand whatever point the Korean commentators are trying to make without knowing any Korean at all just by watching the tabs.
The Korean observers also have a pretty decent minimap awareness, and don't miss as much as some of the other commentators out there.
Korean style is referrer to korean sc:bw stream/obsing.
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the issue is more like certain casters are kinda bad at sc2 to the point they dont have enough apm/minimap awareness/overall sc2 knowledge to keep with the flow of the game
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EPT
