EPTSC2 Master League Information - Page 22
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jarod
Romania766 Posts
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:48 WhiteDog wrote: Seriously, it's absolutly random to get promoted. No, it's not. There is some analysis of the ladder you can do to link MMR and points/bonus pool but no one can be sure of it. If you don't get promoted, it's because your MMR isn't high enough and the second (or game) that you will hit the correct MMR, you'll be master. It is also incorrect to think that a player who has a 200-150 record has a higher MMR than a 200-175. It's sad but It is what Blizzard has done with their ladder. Lots of speculations, lots of question, no real answers. Even top 200 is determined by points so it favours players who plays alot. You can be ranked #1 and still not be favored vs someone, which is sad. What I would do is to put master league top 1000 and all in one division, no bonus pool. It would be more representative this way. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote: Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings? Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote: Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions. i think how it exactly works would none understand anyways but it would be nice if there would be some basic informations about | ||
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
not sure if gona get promoted at this rate | ||
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Eeryck
United States184 Posts
On January 15 2011 15:57 Eeryck wrote: It seems like the point normalization would have occurred much more quickly naturally if they just used their standard promotion method. S-rank loses say 73 and all the rest lose 73 plus diamond division modifier. I understand how the removal of the obfuscation works and agree that it is the right thing to do, but the reset and re-earn seems pretty drastic for basically doing what the system will do anyway. I guess once people get a demotion out of masters or combined masters and diamond players make the top 200 in LA it may show some more interesting things. Just found their method thought provoking. SDream/Excal: So it seems that all promotions are unspent bonus pool +73 across all leagues? SDream I saw this in your post on tracking promotion points, but is that it, pretty much confirmed and dead? This would kill the idea of reverse engineering a continuous ladder right? Since every time you are promoted you would be playing to have convergence between displayed ranking and MMR. This also is messing with my head about division tiers, they are obviously "real" in the sense that it was repeatedly seen by multiple people and utilized to gain some information. I know it is less relevant now with Masters league, still curious. With this information it seems like the ladder is made up of (numbers of sub-leagues chosen arbitrarily) say 2-bronze, 1-silver, 1gold, 2-platinum, 6-diamond, 1-masters = 13 or more leagues with a different MMR requirement for each one. However, once you cross into a new major division there is no additional promotions between the minor leagues in each major division. Perhaps that is how they keep their promotions "conservative" | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
On January 18 2011 01:07 Zorkmid wrote: That would explain why they publish the top 200 without any sort of numeric ranking I suppose. I feel like the system is very good, earlier on the ladder it seemed like it was "roll or get rolled" but over time I've had much more competitive games. IIRC the top 200 is by points, you can proof-check by looking at sc2ranks. The matchmaking system is indeed really really good, probably the best I've ever seen. On January 18 2011 01:25 snicp wrote: 2517 diamond here, 1st in my diamond division, games going up and down (sometimes lose streaks sometimes win streaks, sometimes just win lose win lose) not sure if gona get promoted at this rate Depends on your opponent MMR, the only way to know would be to check if you opponent were masters and see if they were favored and whatso. Check opponent match history and see if the've been matched vs diamond or masters. It sucks but it's they only way. | ||
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kYem
United Kingdom412 Posts
On January 17 2011 23:51 ilmman wrote: please please i think the master league was created so people in TL who keeps saying "im a 2000+ diamond" just set their theorycraft to be legitimate, now realize that anything they have to contribute will easily be proven worthless. Now they can't get into this league and they are going nuts about it because yer... muahahah I dont really think it matters much, what i'm looking foward to is grand master league. Coz there is a lot of low level players in master... so only "Grand Master" will mean something. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 17 2011 23:37 Amber[LighT] wrote: Though it seems everyones MMR is consistent across divisions within the masters league from what I'm gathering? And the size of the masters league shouldn't grow more than 2%. The only way it would "grow" is in size of players, but that would mean that the overall player base across every division and every league would have to increase. The 2% in masters league would never increase, just how much 2% actually means. It's not that random. You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Your hidden MMR was not high enough to get added to masters league. Most people had to play 1 match to get promoted because they already met the requirements. You were probably lacking points so the system didn't promote you. It's not like diamond where players were getting promoted left and right. Yeah it's not that random, but the player have no clue about how far he is from getting promoted, so it's the same. | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On January 18 2011 01:38 Eeryck wrote: SDream/Excal: So it seems that all promotions are unspent bonus pool +73 across all leagues? SDream I saw this in your post on tracking promotion points, but is that it, pretty much confirmed and dead? This would kill the idea of reverse engineering a continuous ladder right? Since every time you are promoted you would be playing to have convergence between displayed ranking and MMR. This also is messing with my head about division tiers, they are obviously "real" in the sense that it was repeatedly seen by multiple people and utilized to gain some information. I know it is less relevant now with Masters league, still curious. With this information it seems like the ladder is made up of (numbers of sub-leagues chosen arbitrarily) say 2-bronze, 1-silver, 1gold, 2-platinum, 6-diamond, 1-masters = 13 or more leagues with a different MMR requirement for each one. However, once you cross into a new major division there is no additional promotions between the minor leagues in each major division. Perhaps that is how they keep their promotions "conservative" Yeah, that seems to be what we're seeing. It really does throw a wrench into what we're trying to do, but we're still looking to get as much information as possible to try and find some patterns. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
I know it is based off a hidden MMR, but I'm wondering if you could estimate it based on your "region rank" and then how close you are to the top 2% in your region. I'm asking because I have no idea how sc2ranks calculates your region rank, if it is purely based off points then I guess it would be irrelevant, are they taking "division modifiers" into consideration or anything else? | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On January 18 2011 03:11 Treemonkeys wrote: So is sc2ranks.com accurate enough to estimate how close you are to masters league? I know it is based off a hidden MMR, but I'm wondering if you could estimate it based on your "region rank" and then how close you are to the top 2% in your region. I'm asking because I have no idea how sc2ranks calculates your region rank, if it is purely based off points then I guess it would be irrelevant, are they taking "division modifiers" into consideration or anything else? It's only displayed points. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On January 18 2011 01:58 kYem wrote: I dont really think it matters much, what i'm looking foward to is grand master league. Coz there is a lot of low level players in master... so only "Grand Master" will mean something. unless you can also go there with just buying a new account like many many current master league players | ||
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ChrysaliS_
United States261 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On January 18 2011 04:26 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Any idea on the range of the moving average used for promotion (number of games)? My guess would be 22, given that this used to be the minimum number of games to get promoted into diamond after placement (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). That's not true anymore. People have been placed initially into Diamond after 1.2. Also, Vanick got promoted after his 10th game from Bronze to Silver. The interval may be 5 or so? | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote: Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions. I actually think it's for a much more simple reason. In wow arena, getting a high MMR ranking means you can earn more points per week which can be used to purchase gear. wow arena is not actually competitive at the lower tiers and like 99% of people do it for fun as a side for when they aren't raiding. Displaying MMR lets them know how they are doing competitively since there are no divisions. SC2 has no motivation for gaining points other than prestige. You can't purchase new stuff or anything and points are simply for prestige. Because of this, the only possible reward is an arbitrary points system and a tier system. They don't want you to know your MMR so that you don't get discouraged since there are no other rewards. As far as balance goes, I believe at blizzcon that they said that the balance is specifically designed for the highest tier so that can't be a reason to not display MMR at all. The points system also encourages people to mass games which otherwise, if you were winning at a 50% win rate, you would be discouraged to do. | ||
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
So, yes, the promotion system is not logically-oriented. | ||
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