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SC2 Master League Information

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-24 23:29:01
January 11 2011 23:50 GMT
#1
Please use this thread for your Master League discussion.

Promotion Criteria
Master league promotion criteria is the same as any other league. If the moving average of your hidden matchmaking rating stabilizes within the confines of the Master league, you will be promoted.

Rating Change
Consistently, we are seeing that people promoted into Master league are assigned new ratings equal to 73 + spent bonus pool.

EDIT: This was confirmed to occur for all leagues, not just Master. It was simply more evident due to the mass promotions that occurred during the first day of Master league.

Relative Division Strength
All Master divisions are equal in rank. There are no division tiers as we observed in lower leagues. The Master League offset is -150 from S-Rank Diamond.

League Population
Master league is believed to be the top 2% of all active players in a region, and is believed to cut away the top 10% of Diamond league. This would put the approximate league populations at 2%/18%/20%/20%/20%/20% for active players. An active player is defined as a player who has played a certain minimum number of games per week. Going inactive does not demote you, you just no longer take up a spot in your league's percentage of the active population. The percentages are also not hard values and there is some slush involved to allow them to even out over time.

EDIT: Here's a little more on what is meant by "active players":

It's technically not a hard 2%. It's kind of complicated and our understanding of it isn't 100% thorough yet because we just learned a lot of this on Friday and there are still many questions that remain. I'll try to explain.

First, it's 2% of active players. That means that if you are within the top 2% of other players who are considered active, you are eligible to be promoted.

This raises the obvious question of "what does the system consider to be active?" Active status hinges upon your bonus pool, since the less active you are, the less bonus pool you are spending. You get 1 point of bonus pool every 112 minutes, or 90 per week, meaning 90 bonus pool is equivalent to one "bonus week." From what we understand there are several tiers of activity.

1. Active players -- Players who spend 90 or more bonus pool per week and have less than X unspent bonus pool.
2. Semi-active players -- Players who have less than X unspent bonus pool.
3. Inactive players -- Players who have X or more unspent bonus pool.

X is something that we're still trying to figure out. It could be a flat value, say 6 bonus weeks' worth, or it could be a percentage of total bonus pool accrued throughout the season. We're also unsure of whether tiers 1 and 2 are the same.

Now, back to the league populations. If you are a semi-active or inactive player and you are matched against another semi-active or inactive player, the system does not gain very much information from that because there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding each player's MMR. It gets the most information by matching you against active players. Note that the system doesn't prefer active players in searches, it just so happens that you're more likely to be matched against an active player because they play more often. If you beat the active Master-level players (which compose roughly 2% of the active population) enough that your moving average moves comfortably into the Master region, you can be promoted.

Second, it's important to know that promotion and demotion also hinges upon a certain confidence level. If you start in Bronze, for example, in order to get promoted into Silver you would have to raise that moving average a fair amount of the way into Silver to prove that you belong there. Demotion is no different.

Therefore, it doesn't inherently mean that by getting promoted that you automatically boot someone else back down to Diamond. For example, if one of the people already in Master league goes inactive, then nobody will get demoted. If, on the other hand, all the active players are still playing games but someone's moving average has fallen into around the mid-Diamond region (thereby proving to the system that that person didn't actually belong in Master league), that person would get demoted.

Hope that answers your question, I understand if that's somewhat confusing. Let me know if you have questions on it and I'll try to clarify further. =]


Supported Game Types
Master League is now available in all game types. (ED: Hotfix to add Master league to team formats has been added 2/24)

Possible Bugs
(Fixed)
+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard posted this in the 1.2 Known Issues sticky. The ramifications are not known.
Rankings are not awarding properly for Master League
We are looking into an issue with rankings and point awards in Master League and should have a resolution as soon as possible. We are again sorry for any inconvenience this has caused


There are also rumors regarding people promoted into Master league being unable to spend their bonus pool. If this has affected you, please link to your profile.

EDIT: Looks like the bonus pool problem has been fixed.
Moderator
Subterfuge
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)11 Posts
January 11 2011 23:53 GMT
#2
Im seeing people in my masters division gain 20+ pts per win and <5 or even 0 pts for losing. I myself have played only 1 game and the opponent came out as being "favored" giving me 20 pts for the win. He was a masters player with about 2400 pts (compared to my ~2300). Perhaps this is the issue that blizzard has mentioned.
Fluent in both Korean and English. 북미에서 스2 잘 하시는 한국분들 쪽지해 주세요 같이해요~
mrdx
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Vietnam1555 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 23:56:18
January 11 2011 23:55 GMT
#3
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Relative Division Strength
All Master divisions are equal in rank. There are no division tiers as we observed in lower leagues

How do you know? I thought we needed the official top 200 from Blizzard to work that out, and there hasn't been any top 200 post from Blizzard since 1.2.0.

Edit: fix quote
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
omgCRAZY
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada551 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 23:57:52
January 11 2011 23:56 GMT
#4
On January 12 2011 08:53 Subterfuge wrote:
Im seeing people in my masters division gain 20+ pts per win and <5 or even 0 pts for losing. I myself have played only 1 game and the opponent came out as being "favored" giving me 20 pts for the win. He was a masters player with about 2400 pts (compared to my ~2300). Perhaps this is the issue that blizzard has mentioned.


That is because the system is trying to get those players back to their MMR faster. After awhile it will all even out again.

EDIT: The Top 200 thing is for the GRAND Masters League. So that should not factor into this league at all.
THIS NEEDS FACE!
LagLovah
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada552 Posts
January 11 2011 23:59 GMT
#5
my bonus pool never got used for 4 games but in the 5th it did ... ? doesnt make a whole lot of sense
rSLagLovah on NA xSixLagLovah on Kr
Subterfuge
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)11 Posts
January 11 2011 23:59 GMT
#6
On January 12 2011 08:56 omgCRAZY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:53 Subterfuge wrote:
Im seeing people in my masters division gain 20+ pts per win and <5 or even 0 pts for losing. I myself have played only 1 game and the opponent came out as being "favored" giving me 20 pts for the win. He was a masters player with about 2400 pts (compared to my ~2300). Perhaps this is the issue that blizzard has mentioned.


That is because the system is trying to get those players back to their MMR faster. After awhile it will all even out again.

EDIT: The Top 200 thing is for the GRAND Masters League. So that should not factor into this league at all.


I think I know what you're saying. Bnets trying to get master league people's points to match their hidden MMR again?
Fluent in both Korean and English. 북미에서 스2 잘 하시는 한국분들 쪽지해 주세요 같이해요~
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 00:01 GMT
#7
On January 12 2011 08:55 mrdx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Relative Division Strength
All Master divisions are equal in rank. There are no division tiers as we observed in lower leagues

How do you know? I thought we needed the official top 200 from Blizzard to work that out, and there hasn't been any top 200 post from Blizzard since 1.2.0.

Edit: fix quote


Because we have promotion data from multiple sources. I personally tracked Yen, Spades, zizibeoo, and received PMs and thread replies in the 1.2 thread that corroborate that. Furthermore, we had confirmation prior to this at Blizzcon from speaking with the senior designer that Master and Grandmaster leagues would not contain any division modifiers.
Moderator
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
January 12 2011 00:02 GMT
#8
Got in and played 3 games, all lost.

I finally win one (4gate, you know) and got masters league.

1900 diamond -> 1589 Masters (700+ bonus pool)

Brood War is forever
ExO_
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States2316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 00:04:10
January 12 2011 00:03 GMT
#9
So assuming its taking everybody top 2% of the region, where (roughly) does that put the Diamond point cut-off
random user
Profile Joined December 2010
85 Posts
January 12 2011 00:07 GMT
#10
Would it be useful to keep posting new divisions are they are created, or is this something which should be obvious and/or is unnecessary?
stupidhydro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States216 Posts
January 12 2011 00:07 GMT
#11
On January 12 2011 09:03 ExO_ wrote:
So assuming its taking everybody top 2% of the region, where (roughly) does that put the Diamond point cut-off


"Master league promotion criteria is the same as any other league. If the moving average of your hidden matchmaking rating stabilizes within the confines of the Master league, you will be promoted."

Just like other promotions it doesn't depend on points but hidden ranking. I was 1250 diamond but 1.3k bonus pool but I got promoted after one game... which i assume is because my MMR is high enough and i consistently played 2.5k diamond players. I'm guessing grandmasters will be point based however.
KoKoRo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States186 Posts
January 12 2011 00:09 GMT
#12
So if we went down or up points does that mean it changed to our real points?
When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
January 12 2011 00:09 GMT
#13
So do you have to play 1 game and then you'll get promoted if youre eligible? Or can you just login and it will promote you? Sorry I'm at work I can't login.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 00:12 GMT
#14
On January 12 2011 09:07 random user wrote:
Would it be useful to keep posting new divisions are they are created, or is this something which should be obvious and/or is unnecessary?


I've been sending your division links to Shadowed so he can add them to SC2Ranks, but he thinks he has the info he needs for now. Thanks though, we appreciate it.
Moderator
shtdisturbance
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada613 Posts
January 12 2011 00:12 GMT
#15
You have to win 1 game if your eligible. I went 0-3 then won and got promoted first game winning.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
January 12 2011 00:13 GMT
#16
On January 12 2011 09:09 crms wrote:
So do you have to play 1 game and then you'll get promoted if youre eligible? Or can you just login and it will promote you? Sorry I'm at work I can't login.


from what it sounds like, you're going to need to win one game to become promoted
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 00:26:06
January 12 2011 00:17 GMT
#17
doesnt sound too hard to get it. good reason to finally start playing fo realz again.


but if the bonus poolstays and evryone is reset to ~the same rating wouldnt it mean i have a huge edge with my 600 bonus pool? promotion works on MMR, my MMR should be decently high (judging from the few games i did recently around 2700 ) so it shouldt take too long to get in leaving me with a quite some bonus pool left.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
ECA.BruTATroN
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States282 Posts
January 12 2011 00:22 GMT
#18
I have a person on my team, who has a total of 64 games played. Yes he has a good record like 50-20 but he has a 1650 bonus pool and is ranked in masters league. Also We have Ryze and noticed in his masters league he is number one and his first 10+ games he got alot of points for wins and 0 points for losses. It seems really funky
http://www.twitch.tv/brutatron
SilverPotato
Profile Joined July 2010
United States560 Posts
January 12 2011 00:23 GMT
#19
Once the reset hits there won't be 1K point scrubs in masters
"The ability to learn faster than your competitors may be the only sustainable competitive advantage." ~Arie de Geus
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
January 12 2011 00:23 GMT
#20
wait it's 2% of total players? I thought they said top 5% of diamond (which is top 1%). That would be really screwed up if true.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
sAfuRos
Profile Joined March 2009
United States743 Posts
January 12 2011 00:25 GMT
#21
I just want to suggest that there are division tiers; i was in Medivac Alamo with 2950 points, moved into masters and have 2350 points. Which is, to say, i have the same amount of points as EGiNcontroL, who had 3300 points before the transfer. I also have 500 more points than where LiquidTyler started (1850) despite being with 30 points of him in Diamond (both in S-class divisions)

So...yea. The top guy in my division has 2800 points and he's just some random guy. I'm pretty sure there are divisions based on mmr (which is why argo x-ray is a stacked division), and that mine is like a Z-Class one, lol
sAfuRos // twitch.tv/sAfuRos // contact for coaching
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
January 12 2011 00:29 GMT
#22
On January 12 2011 09:25 sAfuRos wrote:
I just want to suggest that there are division tiers; i was in Medivac Alamo with 2950 points, moved into masters and have 2350 points. Which is, to say, i have the same amount of points as EGiNcontroL, who had 3300 points before the transfer. I also have 500 more points than where LiquidTyler started (1850) despite being with 30 points of him in Diamond (both in S-class divisions)

So...yea. The top guy in my division has 2800 points and he's just some random guy. I'm pretty sure there are divisions based on mmr (which is why argo x-ray is a stacked division), and that mine is like a Z-Class one, lol


No, everyone gets leveled to the exact same ranking once bonus pool is factored in.
secret - never again
v1dom
Profile Joined August 2010
159 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 00:30:38
January 12 2011 00:29 GMT
#23
I don't think anyone's said it, but the Masters League has appeared to "reset" everyone that gets promoted into it.

It's currently starting everyone with used bonus pool + 73 points. People with bonus pool remaining will have it subtracted from their total point score.

This means anyone who has used their entire bonus pool (and assuming there aren't different classes of divisions) should enter masters at 2329, whether they had 3500 or 2600 points.

It's essentally a "reset", as everyone will start at the same place (bonus pool people will have to go through their bonus pool to be at "2329" first). Good players will go up from there, bad players will fall below it.

2329 is the new 0.
elevengaming / 4Kings - retired
rbkl
Profile Joined March 2010
772 Posts
January 12 2011 00:32 GMT
#24
http://sc2ranks.com/us/520220/kool

My bonus pool isn't spending. Anyone else having this issue? Anyone else NOT having this issue?
www.check6gaming.com // www.iugaming.com ** Indiana's Premier Gaming / Starcraft Community **
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
January 12 2011 00:32 GMT
#25
Quick question:
I won't be able to play SC2 until maybe next weekend, but I am already pretty high on the ladder. I did the math, and I was within the cutoff for masters league. If too many people get in, will I miss my chance?
(Link to my SC2Ranks Profile if you need)
133 221 333 123 111
sAfuRos
Profile Joined March 2009
United States743 Posts
January 12 2011 00:33 GMT
#26
That seems like an awful way of doing it. Like i said, people like Nony, who i was tied with, shuoldn't start 500 lower with 500 bonus pool, if before, he was equal with 500 bonus pool. It seems like a ridiculously arbitrary method of punishing people for no reason. Of course, once the bonus pool is used up, they will be ahead again, but not by nearly as much as they could have been
sAfuRos // twitch.tv/sAfuRos // contact for coaching
MacroNcheesE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States508 Posts
January 12 2011 00:34 GMT
#27
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1310062/TheGWi

Mine isn't spending either, but I've only played one game since being promoted to Masters.
Doubt is the venom that has paralyzed humanity.
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
January 12 2011 00:37 GMT
#28
ive played like 10 games so far and bonus pool was working fine before i got promoted.

http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/354297/PhiliBiRD
ssnseawolf
Profile Joined May 2010
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 00:38:41
January 12 2011 00:38 GMT
#29
I'm rank 1 diamond in random fours, won the last five or six games and still haven't gotten promoted. According to SC2ranks I'm 111th in North America.

Any team players having this problem?
lefty
Profile Joined November 2003
United States1896 Posts
January 12 2011 00:38 GMT
#30
is master league for just 1v1? or are there master leagues for other matchups?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 00:39 GMT
#31
On January 12 2011 09:32 rbkl wrote:
http://sc2ranks.com/us/520220/kool

My bonus pool isn't spending. Anyone else having this issue? Anyone else NOT having this issue?


What is your bonus pool? According to your division page, you don't have a bonus pool left.
Moderator
Floss
Profile Joined January 2011
3 Posts
January 12 2011 00:40 GMT
#32
I think it's only 1 vs 1, not team.
peachsncream
Profile Joined April 2010
United States289 Posts
January 12 2011 00:43 GMT
#33
none of these patch fixes are evident inmy games is anyone else having the same problems? I haven't vs'ed a protoss but any other bug fix or changes that don't relate to protoss are not changed in ladder.
I Micro I Micro - PLZLEAVEDUCK
sAfuRos
Profile Joined March 2009
United States743 Posts
January 12 2011 00:44 GMT
#34
There aren't really any other than the protoss changes. Except for the scv priority...so specify a bit, please? I know for sure phoenix time is down and you need 3 pylons to block a ramp, so i'm assuming the listed changes at least went through, although there might be glitches

And this isn't the thread for this, either
sAfuRos // twitch.tv/sAfuRos // contact for coaching
FrostedMiniWeet
Profile Joined July 2009
United States636 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 01:07:40
January 12 2011 01:07 GMT
#35
On January 12 2011 09:43 peachsncream wrote:
none of these patch fixes are evident inmy games is anyone else having the same problems? I haven't vs'ed a protoss but any other bug fix or changes that don't relate to protoss are not changed in ladder.


What exactly are you talking about? Are you referring to any specific changes? What "patch fix" are you expecting to be evident in your game that you do not see?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 01:11 GMT
#36
Please don't drift off topic, and keep discussion to the Master league itself.
Moderator
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
January 12 2011 01:13 GMT
#37
Just got promoted to Master's :D
Notable people in my division: EGMachine, InflowLinko
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
January 12 2011 01:17 GMT
#38
Is masters league only for 1v1?
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
aztrorisk
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States896 Posts
January 12 2011 01:18 GMT
#39
GUYS! I'm pretty sure that masters is 2% of diamond league.

check http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

only 800 people in masters so far, that means that it will be 2% of diamond and about 2500 will be in Masters in all.


Not 2% of everybody but 2% of diamond. 800 people is a reasonable number.
A lock that opens to many keys is a bad lock. A key that opens many locks is a master key.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 01:18 GMT
#40
On January 12 2011 10:17 Angelbelow wrote:
Is masters league only for 1v1?


I haven't heard whether it is or not, but people haven't been posting links to any 2v2 Master profiles... I think that's still unanswered.
Moderator
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 01:19 GMT
#41
On January 12 2011 10:18 aztrorisk wrote:
GUYS! I'm pretty sure that masters is 2% of diamond league.

check http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

only 800 people in masters so far, that means that it will be 2% of diamond and about 2500 will be in Masters in all.


Not 2% of everybody but 2% of diamond. 800 people is a reasonable number.


Master league is still being filled. New divisions are popping up all the time.
Moderator
Moa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States790 Posts
January 12 2011 01:21 GMT
#42
On January 12 2011 10:19 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 10:18 aztrorisk wrote:
GUYS! I'm pretty sure that masters is 2% of diamond league.

check http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

only 800 people in masters so far, that means that it will be 2% of diamond and about 2500 will be in Masters in all.


Not 2% of everybody but 2% of diamond. 800 people is a reasonable number.


Master league is still being filled. New divisions are popping up all the time.


I believe SC2Ranks doesn't refresh its servers fast enough to have everyone in masters currently appear in masters.
^O^
aztrorisk
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States896 Posts
January 12 2011 01:21 GMT
#43
Master league is still being filled. New divisions are popping up all the time.


Yes, I know that. However, the 2% of everybody is merely a rumor so far. As a result, I think it is best if you remove it from the OP. I'm pretty sure that the system will put about 2,500 people in diamond instead of 13000 people because blizzard said 2% of diamond. It would be unreasonable to change it to 2% of everybody.
A lock that opens to many keys is a bad lock. A key that opens many locks is a master key.
MurdeR
Profile Joined May 2004
Argentina89 Posts
January 12 2011 01:25 GMT
#44
I have two accounts, one in NA Server and another in LA Server.

In NA i was promoted right after playing my first game. I was 2100 with 600 Bonus pool and was matched almost every game against 2800 ++

In LA i was promoted when i won my second game. I was 600 points with 31-15 and like 1900 bonus pool. I was ranked with the top 50 of the server since placements.

This is making me think... points and ladder stats are not being considered to get promotion to master league? Only de hidden MMR or hidden ranking is in consideration?

My profiles:

NA http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/440652/SsTMarinito
LA http://www.sc2ranks.com/la/218783/Marinito

PD: Sorry for my bad english... really.
Comunidad Argentina de SC2: www.latingamers.net
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 01:28 GMT
#45
On January 12 2011 10:21 aztrorisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
Master league is still being filled. New divisions are popping up all the time.


Yes, I know that. However, the 2% of everybody is merely a rumor so far. As a result, I think it is best if you remove it from the OP. I'm pretty sure that the system will put about 2,500 people in diamond instead of 13000 people because blizzard said 2% of diamond. It would be unreasonable to change it to 2% of everybody.


That information comes from the SEA blog: http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/116151#blog

Q: How do I get into the Master League?

A: Only the top 2% of active players in each region will be elevated to the Master League. Because the Diamond League accounts for 20% of all active players, even the #1 ranked player in your Diamond division may not necessarily be promoted to Master League. Our automated placement system compares your player skill to that of all players in your region by way of matches played, just as we do with the Top 200, to determine eligibility.


There is conflicting information later in the post that claims 2% of Diamond league, but this has to be a typo because it contradicts what we heard the design was for Master league at Blizzcon, which was to pull the top 1-2% per region from Diamond. Because Diamond covers the top 20% of active players, the top 2% would equal the top 10% of Diamond, and that's what the Master league is.
Moderator
politik
Profile Joined September 2010
409 Posts
January 12 2011 01:31 GMT
#46
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.
Sonic114
Profile Joined August 2010
United States59 Posts
January 12 2011 01:32 GMT
#47
The bonus pool problem is fixed for me now.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 01:58:03
January 12 2011 01:36 GMT
#48
heh i went from like top 50 on NA to 470th from the point translation when bumped into Master league
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
January 12 2011 01:40 GMT
#49
So do we have an idea of the approximate cutoff is for Masters? I know it's based on MMR, but what are the lowest ratings getting promoted?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 12 2011 01:41 GMT
#50
2% of active players is hardly "everyone".

But yeah, new thread: Guys, I am stuck on diamond, what should I do? Can I 4 gate my way into Master? :D

LA server have only 1 division so far. I am hoping we won't have much more than 1, cause I am hoping to someone at diamond be able to get into top 200, so we can do more maths ^^
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 02:01:37
January 12 2011 01:43 GMT
#51
On January 12 2011 10:36 Zelniq wrote:
heh i went from like top 50 on NA to 470th from the point translation when bumped into Master league. (I believe this is because of the weird system where for some reason every bonus point you've spent is now awarded to you again when going into master league. and because i've laddered more than almost anyone I know and gained very little bonus points since release, i got very little comparing to every other inactive player)

so instead of removing what is a retarded system (bonus pool), they doubled it, cool.

thanks for punishing the most active ladderers even more

I'm pretty sure everyone gets the same amount of bonus points, you were just spending them as soon as they came in. Best check with Excalibur_Z though.

P.S. I'm in your division! Go Zerg!
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 02:15:22
January 12 2011 01:48 GMT
#52
Interesting. Haven't played a game since I got promoted, but my bonus pool when looking at my division is 91, and 82 when looking at the multiplayer 1v1 searching for game screen.

UPDATE: Lost a match, now both say 82.
ibgeekn4me
Profile Joined April 2010
United States75 Posts
January 12 2011 01:48 GMT
#53
I am almost 2600 diamond and have yet do be promoted yet, I find this odd, most games are vs 2500-2600+ folks
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 01:57:27
January 12 2011 01:49 GMT
#54
edit: nvm i understand now why i was so confused by the system
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
politik
Profile Joined September 2010
409 Posts
January 12 2011 01:53 GMT
#55
^^ This is as wrong as can be, sorry. Everyone has the same amount of bonus points no matter what.
Refreshe
Profile Joined May 2010
United States141 Posts
January 12 2011 01:53 GMT
#56
im sorry if this was already answered, but will there be a limit of how many master league divisions that will be created? I'm pretty sure there will be since it's only top 2% of players?
skindzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Chile5114 Posts
January 12 2011 01:53 GMT
#57
Had 2611 points and like 180 bonus, hand laddered in a while, won my first game, got +23 + 23 bonus and got promoted to master with 2162 points.
Its not only the rain that brings the thunder
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 01:55:44
January 12 2011 01:54 GMT
#58
haha zelniq ninja edited right when i hit "quote" ;D

ee han timin!


do i understand it right that the initial rating you get after promotion is related to bonus pool? so someone with 0 would be 2300 and someone with 600 would be 1700?
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
KezseN
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Singapore1450 Posts
January 12 2011 01:56 GMT
#59
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.


Really o.0 So if i just play like 10 games a day I'll get in masters eventually? kinda sounds dissappointing actually if you put it that way...
To Skeleton King: "Have you considered employment at Apple?"
Coramoor
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada455 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 01:59:12
January 12 2011 01:57 GMT
#60
On January 12 2011 10:31 politik wrote:
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.


i disagree with that to a degree, sure anybody could get into diamond, but masters league doesn't mean pro, it just means top players to the level of top 2%, do you really think your diamond player below the bonus pool mark, lets say 2000, is going to make the masters league without improving, right now it seems like it's around the 2600-2700 mark with bonus pool included
FuzzyLord
Profile Joined September 2010
253 Posts
January 12 2011 01:59 GMT
#61
On January 12 2011 09:23 SilverPotato wrote:
Once the reset hits there won't be 1K point scrubs in masters


Anyone know when the reset is actually gonna hit?
CheezDip
Profile Joined June 2010
126 Posts
January 12 2011 02:00 GMT
#62
On January 12 2011 10:31 politik wrote:
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.


Or even if you aren't active. I haven't been playing for the last 2 months, chilled around 1900ish with 700+ bonus. Got promoted to Masters on my first game.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
January 12 2011 02:02 GMT
#63
On January 12 2011 10:31 politik wrote:
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.

Well if the stabilized MMR requirement is based on a value generated from statistics of all players, then the people let in may be let in by a proportional MMR requirement, thus by definition not everyone can get into any league (except theoretically bronze).
Bluetea
Profile Joined August 2010
United States185 Posts
January 12 2011 02:18 GMT
#64
Hey Excalibur I have a question for you.

Is the Masters league going to be like Diamond where inactive players are able to remain in the league? Or is Masters going to push out the inactive players? Because a lot of people will get into Masters and then go afk.
All these bitches is my sons.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 02:28:44
January 12 2011 02:25 GMT
#65
On January 12 2011 11:18 Bluetea wrote:
Hey Excalibur I have a question for you.

Is the Masters league going to be like Diamond where inactive players are able to remain in the league? Or is Masters going to push out the inactive players? Because a lot of people will get into Masters and then go afk.

Oh yeah. I guess everyone could get into Master's as long as people in Master's go afk. That's of course making some assumptions, like MMR is calculated on a game-by-game basis instead of using some sort of global proportions algorithm, and that people won't be demoted for being afk. Blizzard might want to consider demoting inactive accounts when they fall below an MMR requirement, but at the moment it looks like people are only demoted or promoted after a game is played.

Edit: Or perhaps deleting inactive account's MMR, so that after say 90 days of inactivity (or whatever other value is decided) you have to go through placement matches again.
Kalingingsong
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada633 Posts
January 12 2011 02:30 GMT
#66
does the 2% cutoff mean it will be easier to get demoted? or how does that work?
Dess.JadeFalcon
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 02:30 GMT
#67
On January 12 2011 11:18 Bluetea wrote:
Hey Excalibur I have a question for you.

Is the Masters league going to be like Diamond where inactive players are able to remain in the league? Or is Masters going to push out the inactive players? Because a lot of people will get into Masters and then go afk.


You never get demoted due to inactivity, just removed from the population. So yes, you're right that people will probably get into Master then idle, since that happened with Diamond at the start.
Moderator
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 12 2011 02:31 GMT
#68
Once the Masters league settles, we can determine how much of the region is in that league.

Also, hoping that inactive Master league players will get demoted if they fall below the cutoff.
Natt
Profile Joined August 2010
France253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 02:36:23
January 12 2011 02:35 GMT
#69
nvm
Liquid_Ecstasy
Profile Joined October 2010
United States35 Posts
January 12 2011 02:36 GMT
#70
Just wondering, what kind of MMR do you need to get into the Master's League? If I'm playing 2.3k diamond's, am I near the level of the people currently in it? My guess is that the average person in it was at the 2.5k-2.6k mark, but is that correct?
Bluetea
Profile Joined August 2010
United States185 Posts
January 12 2011 02:38 GMT
#71
On January 12 2011 11:30 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 11:18 Bluetea wrote:
Hey Excalibur I have a question for you.

Is the Masters league going to be like Diamond where inactive players are able to remain in the league? Or is Masters going to push out the inactive players? Because a lot of people will get into Masters and then go afk.


You never get demoted due to inactivity, just removed from the population. So yes, you're right that people will probably get into Master then idle, since that happened with Diamond at the start.


What do you mean "removed from the population"?
All these bitches is my sons.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 02:41 GMT
#72
If you're inactive, you're no longer considered an "active player" and don't count toward those percentages.
Moderator
Xodushai
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden174 Posts
January 12 2011 02:41 GMT
#73
According to sc2ranks.com, there are 542 501 players in Europe on ladder.

542 501*0.02 = 10 492

Players around rank 10 500 in diamond Europe has about 1900 points, so if the speculation that masters league will be the top 2% of the player base is true, 1900 points and above in the European diamond league will give you a spot in masters league. This equals roughly:

10 492/39 300 = 0.267 = the top 27% of the current diamond league.

Just some quick numbers, hopefully no thinking errors! Europe is best example since patch is not yet implemented here.

This would definitely clean out most of the bad people, but it would not be a super exclusive league either. But hey, thats what future grand master league is intended for, if there ever will be one.
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
January 12 2011 02:46 GMT
#74
You have to somehow know how many of those 542 501 are active for your calculation to be correct i think.

Does Sc2ranks have away to filter active player ( lets say have played ladder 1v1 in the last month)
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
January 12 2011 02:56 GMT
#75
so practically they did reset the ladder, heh
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
January 12 2011 03:00 GMT
#76
On January 12 2011 11:56 forelmashi wrote:
so practically they did reset the ladder, heh


no, they only semi "reset" the top of diamond and put em above diamond.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
RivalryRedux
Profile Joined July 2009
United States173 Posts
January 12 2011 03:01 GMT
#77
On January 12 2011 11:41 Xodushai wrote:
According to sc2ranks.com, there are 542 501 players in Europe on ladder.

542 501*0.02 = 10 492

Players around rank 10 500 in diamond Europe has about 1900 points, so if the speculation that masters league will be the top 2% of the player base is true, 1900 points and above in the European diamond league will give you a spot in masters league. This equals roughly:

10 492/39 300 = 0.267 = the top 27% of the current diamond league.

Just some quick numbers, hopefully no thinking errors! Europe is best example since patch is not yet implemented here.

This would definitely clean out most of the bad people, but it would not be a super exclusive league either. But hey, thats what future grand master league is intended for, if there ever will be one.


It shouldn't work like that because promotions are based off of MMR and point totals are largely activity based. A player that has used up all of the bonus points to get 1900 would have a pretty low MMR and would likely be a borderline diamond/platinum player.
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
January 12 2011 03:02 GMT
#78
On January 12 2011 11:41 Xodushai wrote:
According to sc2ranks.com, there are 542 501 players in Europe on ladder.

542 501*0.02 = 10 492

Players around rank 10 500 in diamond Europe has about 1900 points, so if the speculation that masters league will be the top 2% of the player base is true, 1900 points and above in the European diamond league will give you a spot in masters league. This equals roughly:

10 492/39 300 = 0.267 = the top 27% of the current diamond league.

Just some quick numbers, hopefully no thinking errors! Europe is best example since patch is not yet implemented here.

This would definitely clean out most of the bad people, but it would not be a super exclusive league either. But hey, thats what future grand master league is intended for, if there ever will be one.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's that simple. You have to factor in Diamond division ranks (S, A, B, C, D, E)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830

So for example, if 1900 is the bottom of the top 2%, someone who has 1900 but is in a Code E division (1585 true rating), is not actually in that top 2%.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
January 12 2011 03:04 GMT
#79
so does anyone have a clue why i went from like rank #50-60 by points before patch, but now after promotion to master im #467 on NA? i'm also #27th on blizz's top 200 released today so i am quite confused
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Terranium
Profile Joined February 2004
Turkmenistan144 Posts
January 12 2011 03:04 GMT
#80
I've noticed something interesting. When you get promoted to Masters League, you leave behind an empty spot in your previous diamond division. That means pretty soon some of the top diamond divisions e.g. Observer Mars, Medivac Alamo etc will become virtually empty? Or will Blizzard pull in top platinum players to fill the spots?
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
January 12 2011 03:07 GMT
#81
I assume they will remain empty till the platinum players are good enough to be promoted and they will fill up these spots instead of new diamond divisions being created. They won't pull in top platinum players just like that if they have not pass the diamond MMR cutoff
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 03:09 GMT
#82
On January 12 2011 12:04 Zelniq wrote:
so does anyone have a clue why i went from like rank #50-60 by points before patch, but now after promotion to master im #467 on NA? i'm also #27th on blizz's top 200 released today so i am quite confused


Read the snapshot data, man! That Top 200 list is from yesterday at 4:30pm, before Master league went live. And if you read the OP it tells you why you have as many points as everyone else.
Moderator
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 03:13:56
January 12 2011 03:11 GMT
#83
edit: nvm i misunderstood something in OP

also I dont see what the top 200 list has anything to do with being taken before Master league went live..i thought top 200 was related to MMR which isnt effected by the new master league / your points. so like if another top 200 was taken right now i'd still be right around there
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Xodushai
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden174 Posts
January 12 2011 03:15 GMT
#84
On January 12 2011 12:02 Cambam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 11:41 Xodushai wrote:
According to sc2ranks.com, there are 542 501 players in Europe on ladder.

542 501*0.02 = 10 492

Players around rank 10 500 in diamond Europe has about 1900 points, so if the speculation that masters league will be the top 2% of the player base is true, 1900 points and above in the European diamond league will give you a spot in masters league. This equals roughly:

10 492/39 300 = 0.267 = the top 27% of the current diamond league.

Just some quick numbers, hopefully no thinking errors! Europe is best example since patch is not yet implemented here.

This would definitely clean out most of the bad people, but it would not be a super exclusive league either. But hey, thats what future grand master league is intended for, if there ever will be one.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's that simple. You have to factor in Diamond division ranks (S, A, B, C, D, E)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830

So for example, if 1900 is the bottom of the top 2%, someone who has 1900 but is in a Code E division (1585 true rating), is not actually in that top 2%.



Hm yah didn't really consider that(obviously ;P). As E is weighted +315, I guess it would be fair to say that 2215+ point players can be certain of getting in to masters, no matter division(A;S,E etc.) if the 2% statement stays true.
Coramoor
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada455 Posts
January 12 2011 03:15 GMT
#85
On January 12 2011 12:11 Zelniq wrote:
edit: nvm i misunderstood something in OP

also I dont see what the top 200 list has anything to do with being taken before Master league went live..i thought top 200 was related to MMR which isnt effected by the new master league / your points. so like if another top 200 was taken right now i'd still be right around there


according to what i remember reading from excal

is that the top 200 had nothing to do with mmr and was actually a point weight system based on the division you're placed in, and it seems that since every is being reset to 2329 - bonus pool, that the new top 200 will be point based but it will be far less obtuse
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
January 12 2011 03:17 GMT
#86
i see, ok thanks
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Drunkasaurus
Profile Joined January 2011
1 Post
January 12 2011 03:19 GMT
#87
Well Master League seems to still be in the works as far as I can see. This guy is in the same division as me and I bet he's frightened for his life:

[image loading]

Still though, Master League is Master League.

[image loading]

ooo rah.
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
January 12 2011 03:25 GMT
#88
On January 12 2011 12:19 Drunkasaurus wrote:
Well Master League seems to still be in the works as far as I can see. This guy is in the same division as me and I bet he's frightened for his life:

[image loading]

Still though, Master League is Master League.

[image loading]

ooo rah.

Or it is a smurf and he is going to fucking own you lol

Excal i couldnt read all the posts; but do you see no division modifiers as an issue for master league?
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
Bosu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3247 Posts
January 12 2011 03:25 GMT
#89
Even if masters league isn't as exclusive as many would have liked, because there are no longer tiers within the leagues divisions we can at least get a better idea of where we actually stand. The only problem is playing enough to keep up with the bonus pool.
#1 Kwanro Fan
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 03:27 GMT
#90
On January 12 2011 12:25 bkrow wrote:
Or it is a smurf and he is going to fucking own you lol

Excal i couldnt read all the posts; but do you see no division modifiers as an issue for master league?


The less obfuscated the system is, the easier it is for people to identify where they stand. There's no downside in that.
Moderator
muffley
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States280 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 03:43:25
January 12 2011 03:32 GMT
#91
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
League Population
Master league is believed to be the top 2% of all active players in a region, and is believed to cut away the top 10% of Diamond league. This would put the approximate league populations at 2%/18%/20%/20%/20%/20% for active players.

I've seen these numbers quoted by Blizzard, and then by others through that. They are wrong. The numbers look more like this:

us (as of yesterday)
number of players with 1v1 league: 669340
bronze 290913 (43.46%)
silver 120081 (17.94%)
gold 113385 (16.94%)
platinum 89941 (13.44%)
diamond 55020 (8.22%)

kr
number of players with 1v1 league: 277789
bronze 121045 (43.57%)
silver 61929 (22.29%)
gold 45650 (16.43%)
platinum 28025 (10.09%)
diamond 21140 (7.61%)

tw
number of players with 1v1 league: 93615
bronze 42314 (45.20%)
silver 19885 (21.24%)
gold 15289 (16.33%)
platinum 9641 (10.30%)
diamond 6486 (6.93%)

So like 8%/11%/16%/21%/44% without the master league.
EZjijy
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1039 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 03:34:22
January 12 2011 03:33 GMT
#92
Well this is a little weird for me. I'm not a very active 1v1 player, but because my records not too bad, I been playing top 3 diamond players winning about half of them. I got into diamond with only 1 win and my record before was only 33-20 with around 650 points and >1700 bonus. O.O

I think I lost like 50 points and 100 bonus.
A1m
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany48 Posts
January 12 2011 03:33 GMT
#93
Generally its better then without but it really feels like its too easy to get in at this point. I mean, 1900, come on, thats a joke nowadays, thats a rating everyone should be able to hit as soon he gets into diamond.

But wait, who's the lowest ranked guy who got into masters league without having a bonuspool?
www.youtube.com/A1mStarcraft
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 03:34 GMT
#94
Dang it! They said 2% of top players from each individual region, but according to SC2ranks.com this isn't the case.

On NA there were about 55100 diamond players. So, 10% of them (since all Diamond players are, for the most part considered active) would have been 5510 players. Right now there's only 1000 players in Masters. If you look at SEA, there's only 300 in Masters, and the Masters:Diamond ratio is not the same as seen in NA server.

So it seems Blizzard "manually" selected set numbers for each region.
Or SC2ranks.com is wrong.
Or Masters' League is temporarily not allowing people to be promoted in, as I should have been promoted (played again after patch 1.2, and even won). In which case I'll have to be patient until it creates more divisions?

Actually just realized, it's probably because they need to wait for another 100 or so people before they create a division, right? So yeah I'll have to be patient I guess until enough people fall into the Masters MMR region for more divisions to be created.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 03:37:44
January 12 2011 03:37 GMT
#95
On January 12 2011 12:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Dang it! They said 2% of top players from each individual region, but according to SC2ranks.com this isn't the case.

On NA there were about 55100 diamond players. So, 10% of them (since all Diamond players are, for the most part considered active) would have been 5510 players. Right now there's only 1000 players in Masters. If you look at SEA, there's only 300 in Masters, and the Masters:Diamond ratio is not the same as seen in NA server.

So it seems Blizzard "manually" selected set numbers for each region.
Or SC2ranks.com is wrong.
Or Masters' League is temporarily not allowing people to be promoted in, as I should have been promoted (played again after patch 1.2, and even won). In which case I'll have to be patient until it creates more divisions?

Actually just realized, it's probably because they need to wait for another 100 or so people before they create a division, right? So yeah I'll have to be patient I guess until enough people fall into the Masters MMR region for more divisions to be created.


patch is out for not even a day(not even online yet over here). you need to play to get promoted. give it time...
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
January 12 2011 03:41 GMT
#96
On January 12 2011 09:23 SilverPotato wrote:
Once the reset hits there won't be 1K point scrubs in masters


because everyone will be 1k?
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 03:42 GMT
#97
Yeah ok I checked and compared several friends of mine who are almost semi-pro status, and one of them who is better than the others is still in Diamond, so yeah I guess the system is waiting for more people to be "ready" to be promoted before creating divisions...

Also

I've seen these numbers quoted by Blizzard, and then by others through that. They are wrong. The numbers look more like this:


Remember, before Master League, all leagues were balanced 20% for all ACTIVE players. Meaning, yes Bronze league is actually 45% of total population on a lot of servers, but most of that Bronze League is inactive. Diamond is supposed to be pure active (it's not always of course, because there will always be a few who will be demoted soon as soon as they play a game to make way for a more active Diamond-deserving player). But otherwise, Diamond is 20% of all active players, so you can say that the amount of players in Diamond is the same amount of active players in each league.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 12 2011 03:42 GMT
#98
On January 12 2011 11:31 Azzur wrote:
Once the Masters league settles, we can determine how much of the region is in that league.

Also, hoping that inactive Master league players will get demoted if they fall below the cutoff.


The issue is that assuming there's a constant MMR cutoff (rather than percentage-based), if they go inactive after being promoted to Master League they're never going to drop below the cutoff since they're already above. Hence ladder resets with 1 "placement match" which really is just to sort out the inactive players from the leagues
Chrysalis.145
IPA
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3206 Posts
January 12 2011 03:43 GMT
#99
On January 12 2011 12:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Dang it! They said 2% of top players from each individual region, but according to SC2ranks.com this isn't the case.

On NA there were about 55100 diamond players. So, 10% of them (since all Diamond players are, for the most part considered active) would have been 5510 players. Right now there's only 1000 players in Masters. If you look at SEA, there's only 300 in Masters, and the Masters:Diamond ratio is not the same as seen in NA server.

So it seems Blizzard "manually" selected set numbers for each region.
Or SC2ranks.com is wrong.
Or Masters' League is temporarily not allowing people to be promoted in, as I should have been promoted (played again after patch 1.2, and even won). In which case I'll have to be patient until it creates more divisions?

Actually just realized, it's probably because they need to wait for another 100 or so people before they create a division, right? So yeah I'll have to be patient I guess until enough people fall into the Masters MMR region for more divisions to be created.


Played around 12 matches this evening and got promoted (NA server). My division only has like 27 people in it so I don't think waiting for 100 players necessarily has anything to do with it.
Time held me green and dying though I sang in my chains like the sea.
FuRong
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand3089 Posts
January 12 2011 03:43 GMT
#100
On January 12 2011 12:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Dang it! They said 2% of top players from each individual region, but according to SC2ranks.com this isn't the case.

On NA there were about 55100 diamond players. So, 10% of them (since all Diamond players are, for the most part considered active) would have been 5510 players. Right now there's only 1000 players in Masters. If you look at SEA, there's only 300 in Masters, and the Masters:Diamond ratio is not the same as seen in NA server.

So it seems Blizzard "manually" selected set numbers for each region.
Or SC2ranks.com is wrong.
Or Masters' League is temporarily not allowing people to be promoted in, as I should have been promoted (played again after patch 1.2, and even won). In which case I'll have to be patient until it creates more divisions?

Actually just realized, it's probably because they need to wait for another 100 or so people before they create a division, right? So yeah I'll have to be patient I guess until enough people fall into the Masters MMR region for more divisions to be created.


Not all Diamond players are active, go and look at NA Diamond with the activity filter set to "last month". You will notice that the number of pages of players drops from 542 to 271. On SEA it drops from 53 to 24. So really, only about half of all Diamond players even played a game in the last month.
Don't hate the player, hate the game
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 03:49 GMT
#101
Not all Diamond players are active, go and look at NA Diamond with the activity filter set to "last month". You will notice that the number of pages of players drops from 542 to 271. On SEA it drops from 53 to 24. So really, only about half of all Diamond players even played a game in the last month.


Wow really. Hm ok now I see why they had that 1 placement match in after ladder resets... cus you can't be demoted until you play a game, and if you've not played a game you won't be demoted right? xD

Well, we're still missing about 1400 players then. I looked at the top Diamond and some players even included the likes of QXC. So hopefully the system is just slow to promote people?
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Klamity
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States994 Posts
January 12 2011 03:56 GMT
#102
i was promoted almost immediately. this seems to be very easy to attain?
Don't believe in yourself, believe in me, who believes in you.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 04:00 GMT
#103
On January 12 2011 12:32 muffley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
League Population
Master league is believed to be the top 2% of all active players in a region, and is believed to cut away the top 10% of Diamond league. This would put the approximate league populations at 2%/18%/20%/20%/20%/20% for active players.

I've seen these numbers quoted by Blizzard, and then by others through that. They are wrong. The numbers look more like this:

us (as of yesterday)
number of players with 1v1 league: 669340
bronze 290913 (43.46%)
silver 120081 (17.94%)
gold 113385 (16.94%)
platinum 89941 (13.44%)
diamond 55020 (8.22%)

kr
number of players with 1v1 league: 277789
bronze 121045 (43.57%)
silver 61929 (22.29%)
gold 45650 (16.43%)
platinum 28025 (10.09%)
diamond 21140 (7.61%)

tw
number of players with 1v1 league: 93615
bronze 42314 (45.20%)
silver 19885 (21.24%)
gold 15289 (16.33%)
platinum 9641 (10.30%)
diamond 6486 (6.93%)

So like 8%/11%/16%/21%/44% without the master league.


Active players is the key phrase here. SC2Ranks only has data for ALL players. You'll notice that the numbers are much closer with the activity filter set to 7 days, for example.
Moderator
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 04:13:00
January 12 2011 04:04 GMT
#104
Hey can anyone explain why im always playing against favoured ppl? Its like when you first start playing...

The only explanation is your MMR is being recalculated or something? Im really not sure..

Seems like its the same thing for everyone in masters

edit: also why cant I find myself in sc2 ranks

username: Sircrayon
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 04:13 GMT
#105
Rankings are not awarding properly for Master League
We are looking into an issue with rankings and point awards in Master League and should have a resolution as soon as possible. We are again sorry for any inconvenience this has caused


Oops didn't read this, stupid me. Sorry about my previous posts haha.

@CrayonKing you should read the thread about MMR, it'll inform you a lot. Just to be brief here, it means that you are improving and possibly will be promoted if you improve enough.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
grapz
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada20 Posts
January 12 2011 04:17 GMT
#106
Is there a player cap for Masters league? If so how do new ppl enter?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 12 2011 04:27 GMT
#107
On January 12 2011 12:42 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Yeah ok I checked and compared several friends of mine who are almost semi-pro status, and one of them who is better than the others is still in Diamond, so yeah I guess the system is waiting for more people to be "ready" to be promoted before creating divisions...


A division with only 3 players hasn't been a problem before, it won't be a problem now.

Did your "pro" friends actually won a game at least?
Coramoor
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada455 Posts
January 12 2011 04:52 GMT
#108
On January 12 2011 12:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +
Not all Diamond players are active, go and look at NA Diamond with the activity filter set to "last month". You will notice that the number of pages of players drops from 542 to 271. On SEA it drops from 53 to 24. So really, only about half of all Diamond players even played a game in the last month.


Wow really. Hm ok now I see why they had that 1 placement match in after ladder resets... cus you can't be demoted until you play a game, and if you've not played a game you won't be demoted right? xD

Well, we're still missing about 1400 players then. I looked at the top Diamond and some players even included the likes of QXC. So hopefully the system is just slow to promote people?


you need to play one game at least to get placed
vnlegend
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1389 Posts
January 12 2011 05:03 GMT
#109
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in. Many 1900 diamond players are worse than plat players.

Anyway, at least this thing will get rid of the division modifiers.
Marines > everything
holy_war
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States3590 Posts
January 12 2011 05:09 GMT
#110
On January 12 2011 14:03 vnlegend wrote:
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in. Many 1900 diamond players are worse than plat players.

Anyway, at least this thing will get rid of the division modifiers.


Damnit, read the post. It depends on your MMR. There's people with 27-12 records getting into Master League.
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 12 2011 05:10 GMT
#111
On January 12 2011 14:03 vnlegend wrote:
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in. Many 1900 diamond players are worse than plat players.

Anyway, at least this thing will get rid of the division modifiers.


You're looking at it in the wrong way.

It's NOT about points, it is about MMR.

This one 1900 guy is fine, the avarege 2300 diamond will not get into master.

Don't worry, the system is fine.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 05:17 GMT
#112
A division with only 3 players hasn't been a problem before, it won't be a problem now.

Did your "pro" friends actually won a game at least?


Hm but those divisions fill up really soon don't they? So may be they do "wait" until there are 100 people ready, and then try to promote them as quickly as possible so that the division fills as if they all promoted at the same time.

Anyways yes they have, ofc . And it probably sounded nooby when i said my almost semi- pro friends, I mean really good players that are part of teams/clans that I have tried out with, that are high on the ladder (top 1000 at least on NA).

you need to play one game at least to get placed


Yea i know
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Terranium
Profile Joined February 2004
Turkmenistan144 Posts
January 12 2011 05:22 GMT
#113
Is it just me or does anyone else think the Master League star badge is fugly? It almost looks like some kind of amateur photoshop work.

Cmon Blizzard, this is the most badass league. Give it the coolest badge.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
January 12 2011 05:30 GMT
#114
On January 12 2011 14:03 vnlegend wrote:
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in.


My displayed rating was below 1200 when I got promoted to the Master league.

sorry for being a newb
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
January 12 2011 05:34 GMT
#115
On January 12 2011 14:03 vnlegend wrote:
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in. Many 1900 diamond players are worse than plat players.

Anyway, at least this thing will get rid of the division modifiers.


Learn to read, its MMR, not displayed rating. Those 1900 pt players you're talking about? They're consistently playing 2.8k players. Hence why they got promoted.
secret - never again
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
January 12 2011 05:42 GMT
#116
It's what Blizz has created ;

mindless noobies who thinks ladder point > MMR

I still don't get why master league isn't one global ranking that only shows MMR and reset every month or so. Isn't it what every player that get there wants?
Brood War is forever
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
January 12 2011 05:48 GMT
#117
On January 12 2011 14:30 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 14:03 vnlegend wrote:
Only 1900 pts gets you into Master league? That's basically a joke as any noob can get in.


My displayed rating was below 1200 when I got promoted to the Master league.

sorry for being a newb

Epic 5000th post
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
vnlegend
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1389 Posts
January 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#118
A 1200 guy with 2900mmr with like 40 games will be a joke to play against while a guy who's 2600 with 1000 games played will be a much more difficult opponent as over the course of 1000 games, you'd expect that guy to have decent builds and experience to back it up.

Aside from smurfs, most of these low-games players aren't that good and shouldn't be promoted to begin with.

At 2900 my last game was against a 1700 low # of games player who in TvT tried to 2rax marine+scv allin me. I built a bunker and he left the game. That's a master right there!
Marines > everything
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 06:06 GMT
#119
A 1200 guy with 2900mmr with like 40 games will be a joke to play against while a guy who's 2600 with 1000 games played will be a much more difficult opponent as over the course of 1000 games, you'd expect that guy to have decent builds and experience to back it up.


Not always, but generally yes I do agree with you. A silver player I played with, who had like 500+ games, felt like a 2400 ish Diamond player. But may be that was just cus his macro was good but his decision making suffered. Either way yeah xD

Also, I don't see how you can be sure that "most" of those players aren't "that good". If a player has played 50 games, and has a winrate of about 80%, that seems good enough to me. Because most likely he has been matched up with at least 2500+ diamond player, and likely around 3000 once he hits 50 ames.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 06:07:43
January 12 2011 06:06 GMT
#120
^^ truth.
This is what's going to happen. The low game players never actually 1v1 alot, they just got on today simply to get to masters. After doing so they aren't going to play 1's ever again. They simply want the icon only. Statistically, the more you play, the lower your win ratio should become. It's just math, you HAVE to lose games sometime. I also think a 2.5k player with a 400-350 ratio should be more deserving than a 1.2k w/ bonus pool with a 25-10 ratio or whatever. For all I know that 25-10 could drop to a 400-400 by the time he gets to the number of games.
The Notorious Winkles
Kaoriyu
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada276 Posts
January 12 2011 06:12 GMT
#121
This is strange, I'm 1800 rating but in ladder I always go up against 2400-2700 players. I won 4 games today and lost 4. Is my MMR not high enough?
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
January 12 2011 06:30 GMT
#122
The number doesn't translate across divisions, so likely that you are not high enough
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 06:33:12
January 12 2011 06:31 GMT
#123
grr

was gold and have a pretty high mmr, routinely playing and beating 2500 diamonds (29-9)

i thought i was gonna go straight into diamond, and then into masters, but i was promoted to platinum. my mmr still hasnt settled yet since i am winning pretty much all my games, maybe thats why

unrealistic wish but yah o wells
DooMDash
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1015 Posts
January 12 2011 07:47 GMT
#124
On January 12 2011 15:12 Kaoriyu wrote:
This is strange, I'm 1800 rating but in ladder I always go up against 2400-2700 players. I won 4 games today and lost 4. Is my MMR not high enough?

On my second account I was 1600 and my first win today got me into Masters, so likely you are not high enough.
S1 3500+ Master T. S2 1600+ Master T.
Onean
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom38 Posts
January 12 2011 07:49 GMT
#125
Does anyone know yet, whether or not master league divisions are also A-Rank/B-rank with 63x modifiers? Would be a shame if it were.
I'm not even going to dignify that with a troll.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#126
My only question is this: Will needs be constantly added or is this a locked number that Blizzard has in mind and people will constantly be shifted from Diamond to Master's.

To reiterate: will there be, for example, 5 Master's Ranked Leagues and if you no longer qualify, you will be demoted to Diamond and someone will take your spot immediately?

My question might sound like what we currently have with other leagues, but perhaps more strict or just more competitive.

Thanks.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 09:02:35
January 12 2011 08:47 GMT
#127
According to sc2ranks, there is 2078 Master league players. This seems to equate to around 10% of the active Diamonds.

EDIT: Ah, it's confirmed that it's 10% of active Diamonds. Master's league contains the top 2% of the region.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471#blog
Sky0
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States214 Posts
January 12 2011 08:59 GMT
#128
i was around 2760ish rating b4 i got promoted. i dropped to around 2330. And all the higher ranked people are ranked below me some above me
"We are not retreating, we are advancing in another direction"
KevinAce
Profile Joined May 2010
United States101 Posts
January 12 2011 09:00 GMT
#129
I was ~2800 diamond. Just played 1 game and won on 1.2. Now I'm Masters but ~2300 points.
LootMarket.com
Greyhawk
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia110 Posts
January 12 2011 09:03 GMT
#130
Hey quick question.. what does it mean if i have a 2.1k bonus pool? O_O
ShoCk-
KevinAce
Profile Joined May 2010
United States101 Posts
January 12 2011 09:14 GMT
#131
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Rating Change
Consistently, we are seeing that people promoted into Master league are assigned new ratings equal to 73 + spent bonus pool. There is no point translation as was found in lower leagues.

Any idea why Blizzard went with this approach? It's a bit strange to go from 2900 to 2300. If I'm 2300, then that means I've used up 2227 bonus pool points?

It seems as if this is basically to mitigate the power of the bonus pool since you're only getting credit once for the points (not the win + bonus pool). Am I correct?
LootMarket.com
Spidinko
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovakia1174 Posts
January 12 2011 09:23 GMT
#132
On January 12 2011 15:31 akalarry wrote:
grr

was gold and have a pretty high mmr, routinely playing and beating 2500 diamonds (29-9)

i thought i was gonna go straight into diamond, and then into masters, but i was promoted to platinum. my mmr still hasnt settled yet since i am winning pretty much all my games, maybe thats why

unrealistic wish but yah o wells

Actually, as far as I know, the system doesn't promote you into platinum when it's likely you'll end up in diamond. It waits until it's fairly certain and then it promotes you where it thinks you belong.
Teivospylol
Profile Joined September 2010
Djibouti47 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 09:26:35
January 12 2011 09:25 GMT
#133
On January 12 2011 15:06 rysecake wrote:
^^ truth.
This is what's going to happen. The low game players never actually 1v1 alot, they just got on today simply to get to masters. After doing so they aren't going to play 1's ever again. They simply want the icon only. Statistically, the more you play, the lower your win ratio should become. It's just math, you HAVE to lose games sometime. I also think a 2.5k player with a 400-350 ratio should be more deserving than a 1.2k w/ bonus pool with a 25-10 ratio or whatever. For all I know that 25-10 could drop to a 400-400 by the time he gets to the number of games.


for all you know you're actually worse than 1.2k w/ bonus pool with a 25-10 ratio and you're just whining

the system is fine, it works off MMR not ladder rating (all ladder rating means is that you've played a lot of games, it doesn't mean you're skilled at all) and you're just mad because people you think are worse than you are getting that icon ^>^

Ji
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
January 12 2011 09:26 GMT
#134
On January 12 2011 18:03 Greyhawk wrote:
Hey quick question.. what does it mean if i have a 2.1k bonus pool? O_O


It means that:
a) you haven't played much games
b) you lack the skill of reading this thread

On topic: I'm a more or less borderline EU-case (1270 points, 1200 bonus pool; matched up against 2500-2700 in my recent games). I would really appreciate it if people who got promoted in EU and are rather "low" could report their points. Although I obviously realize it's based on MMR, since this isn't visible, I'd love to know the "average points-cap" for the EU-region (bonus pool added for obvious reasons).
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
YerknYass
Profile Joined January 2011
United States33 Posts
January 12 2011 09:31 GMT
#135
I am ~2750 Diamond, have won like 5 games in a row--still no master O.O

damn you MMR!
I'm blowin' up like you thought I would, Call the crib, same numba' same hood, it's all good- B.I.G.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
January 12 2011 09:33 GMT
#136
On January 12 2011 18:26 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 18:03 Greyhawk wrote:
Hey quick question.. what does it mean if i have a 2.1k bonus pool? O_O


It means that:
a) you haven't played much games
b) you lack the skill of reading this thread

On topic: I'm a more or less borderline EU-case (1270 points, 1200 bonus pool; matched up against 2500-2700 in my recent games). I would really appreciate it if people who got promoted in EU and are rather "low" could report their points. Although I obviously realize it's based on MMR, since this isn't visible, I'd love to know the "average points-cap" for the EU-region (bonus pool added for obvious reasons).

While it's not EU, I know infinity21 got promoted with only about 1800
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
frozt_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States234 Posts
January 12 2011 09:35 GMT
#137
On January 12 2011 08:55 mrdx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Relative Division Strength
All Master divisions are equal in rank. There are no division tiers as we observed in lower leagues

How do you know? I thought we needed the official top 200 from Blizzard to work that out, and there hasn't been any top 200 post from Blizzard since 1.2.0.

Edit: fix quote

The grand master league will be the top 200, The master league is top 2% in diamond in your region. It has a lot of bugs because some people who have only 1000 points and less are getting into it. I hope they get it all sorted out though so ladder can have stable rankings
Practice and dedication reveals the greatness within a player
frozt_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States234 Posts
January 12 2011 09:38 GMT
#138
On January 12 2011 15:12 Kaoriyu wrote:
This is strange, I'm 1800 rating but in ladder I always go up against 2400-2700 players. I won 4 games today and lost 4. Is my MMR not high enough?

Im the same except 2000 and playing against 2700+, This is due to your MMR being the same level as the players who you are playing against.
Practice and dedication reveals the greatness within a player
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 09:41:37
January 12 2011 09:40 GMT
#139
On January 12 2011 18:35 frozt_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:55 mrdx wrote:
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Relative Division Strength
All Master divisions are equal in rank. There are no division tiers as we observed in lower leagues

How do you know? I thought we needed the official top 200 from Blizzard to work that out, and there hasn't been any top 200 post from Blizzard since 1.2.0.

Edit: fix quote

The grand master league will be the top 200, The master league is top 2% in diamond in your region. It has a lot of bugs because some people who have only 1000 points and less are getting into it. I hope they get it all sorted out though so ladder can have stable rankings


but those with 1k points who were promoted prolly have massive bonus pool and an MMR mich higher than their points.

Promotion is based on MMR and not points.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
HellfireSamurai
Profile Joined July 2010
United States9 Posts
January 12 2011 09:43 GMT
#140
Is it just me or is Blizz being very ambiguous about what the cutoff exactly is?

From the link http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471#blog:

"Q: How do I get into the Master League?

A: Only the top 2% of active players in each region will be elevated to the Master League."

OR

"Q: Will the Master League start with the launch of the patch?

A: The top 2% of players from the Diamond League..."

There's a pretty significant difference between top 2% in the region (which, as others have said, amounts to ~top 10% in Diamond), and top 2% in Diamond. Does anyone know which it is?
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
January 12 2011 09:44 GMT
#141
On January 12 2011 18:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 18:26 sleepingdog wrote:
On January 12 2011 18:03 Greyhawk wrote:
Hey quick question.. what does it mean if i have a 2.1k bonus pool? O_O


It means that:
a) you haven't played much games
b) you lack the skill of reading this thread

On topic: I'm a more or less borderline EU-case (1270 points, 1200 bonus pool; matched up against 2500-2700 in my recent games). I would really appreciate it if people who got promoted in EU and are rather "low" could report their points. Although I obviously realize it's based on MMR, since this isn't visible, I'd love to know the "average points-cap" for the EU-region (bonus pool added for obvious reasons).

While it's not EU, I know infinity21 got promoted with only about 1800


The "problem" - in my case the good thing - is, that from the people I was talking to I got the feeling that NA has been a bit more "inflated", if you want to call it that way. Of course I've nothing to back this on, just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if the cap in EU is lower points-wise.

Regardless of that, this gives me an incentive to just start laddering, after fooling around too much in custom games
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
January 12 2011 10:14 GMT
#142
I think an MMR decay system is necesarry imo. Someone who was good 4 months ago because he mastered the perfect 4 gate and got Masters League MMR doesnt mean that he is still good now. This is especially true since so many people stopped playing after they got into Diamond. There needs to be a decay system that is not too punishing to weed out this people but does not burden the top players from playing ladder. Maybe 1 game per week requirement is necesarry in order to prevent decay.

On the other hand, points are not everything either because some top pros just do not finish their bonus pool ( or their MMR is so high that they are favored against everyone and it is a struggle to even finish their bonus pool)
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
January 12 2011 10:21 GMT
#143
I don't know if this helps anyones calculations but I'm 2361 in one of the "top" rank Diamond division in terms of modifier and didn't get promoted after winning 2 matches, so I'm still in diamond. I usually get matched up against 2000-2500 elo diamond players (before the patch anyway).
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
January 12 2011 10:27 GMT
#144
Guys.. Diamond means top 7 8 % from the populations.. 10% from Diamond will mean 0,7 - 0,8 % off all players not 2%. There is a big difference. Anyhow around 1% will be Masters and this is ok like this.
Maru | Life | herO
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 10:29:07
January 12 2011 10:27 GMT
#145
On January 12 2011 19:14 dtz wrote:
I think an MMR decay system is necesarry imo. Someone who was good 4 months ago because he mastered the perfect 4 gate and got Masters League MMR doesnt mean that he is still good now. This is especially true since so many people stopped playing after they got into Diamond. There needs to be a decay system that is not too punishing to weed out this people but does not burden the top players from playing ladder. Maybe 1 game per week requirement is necesarry in order to prevent decay.

On the other hand, points are not everything either because some top pros just do not finish their bonus pool ( or their MMR is so high that they are favored against everyone and it is a struggle to even finish their bonus pool)


I don't think an MMR decay would be bad at all, even a much larger decay - because if somebody stopped playing (and if this certain somebody isn't an idiot who just cares about his icon) and wants to come back, then I'm sure he would appreciate it to have, say, 10-20 games vs lower skilled opponents, no?

I, for example, ladder very rarely and prefer custom games with people I know or stupid 2v2s, 3v3s with bronze/silver-real-life-friends. In 1v1 I'm currently on a 11-0 overall winning streak.....and even hough I played almost no ladder games recently, simply due to being on a streak I get matched up with quite good opponents, which is, how shall I put it, "quite scary". Because I like to start laddering again with the new patch and getting "even" matches with people who played about 600-800 more games than me isn't a confidence-booster in macro games.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
January 12 2011 10:31 GMT
#146
I guess master will be 2% from all region... so this means around 25-30% from who is know diamond will be master, the top 25% regarding MMR.
Maru | Life | herO
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
January 12 2011 10:32 GMT
#147
On January 12 2011 19:27 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 19:14 dtz wrote:
I think an MMR decay system is necesarry imo. Someone who was good 4 months ago because he mastered the perfect 4 gate and got Masters League MMR doesnt mean that he is still good now. This is especially true since so many people stopped playing after they got into Diamond. There needs to be a decay system that is not too punishing to weed out this people but does not burden the top players from playing ladder. Maybe 1 game per week requirement is necesarry in order to prevent decay.

On the other hand, points are not everything either because some top pros just do not finish their bonus pool ( or their MMR is so high that they are favored against everyone and it is a struggle to even finish their bonus pool)


I don't think an MMR decay would be bad at all, even a much larger decay - because if somebody stopped playing (and if this certain somebody isn't an idiot who just cares about his icon) and wants to come back, then I'm sure he would appreciate it to have, say, 10-20 games vs lower skilled opponents, no?

I, for example, ladder very rarely and prefer custom games with people I know or stupid 2v2s, 3v3s with bronze/silver-real-life-friends. In 1v1 I'm currently on a 11-0 overall winning streak.....and even hough I played almost no ladder games recently, simply due to being on a streak I get matched up with quite good opponents, which is, how shall I put it, "quite scary". Because I like to start laddering again with the new patch and getting "even" matches with people who played about 600-800 more games than me isn't a confidence-booster in macro games.



Most likely there is a time delay. Basically they increase your sigma over time and when you come back your mmr will shift rapidly in your first 4-5 games. This is already a part of the trueskill algorithm and glicko-2.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
JDeathmetal
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands81 Posts
January 12 2011 12:11 GMT
#148
hmm, still don't fully understand how this master league works, just won against a 2300 master league dude, then faced 2x 2700 diamonds lost 1 won 1 and won from a 2300 diamond, still no promotion though. Altough im certain that i have an mmr of 2600-2700 I thought that would have been enough :| ! How many games do most of you win before you get promoted?
Some people don't like metal ............... FUCK THEM!
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
January 12 2011 12:15 GMT
#149
On January 12 2011 21:11 JDeathmetal wrote:
hmm, still don't fully understand how this master league works, just won against a 2300 master league dude, then faced 2x 2700 diamonds lost 1 won 1 and won from a 2300 diamond, still no promotion though. Altough im certain that i have an mmr of 2600-2700 I thought that would have been enough :| ! How many games do most of you win before you get promoted?


If your MMR were high enough, winning 1 game would be enough.

The fact that you have played a few games and were not promoted yet means your MMR is not at the top 2 percent of active players yet.
Jieun
Profile Joined October 2010
United States247 Posts
January 12 2011 12:38 GMT
#150
Top 2% of the region is top 10% of all active diamond (.1 x .2) assuming active diamond is 20% of the region. Therefore, if you're in the top 90th percentile of diamond in you should technically be put into Masters, assuming your MMR is as good as your points.
sykBelieve
Profile Joined November 2010
22 Posts
January 12 2011 13:05 GMT
#151
If it helps the people arguing about bonus pool and being low points, here are some facts from me:

I was top 20 entire sea server for the 2 months when I played, stopped playing for 4 months and then started to play a bit on US. Not sure if they keep my MMR from each server but I started playing on US just A BIT, with about a record of 40-30 and 600 points or so..
Then I logged on today after another month of not playing ladder, played as my offrace zerg, lost 4 in a row (against three 2500+ masters league and one rank 1 2700 diamond) and won 1 as protoss after raging as my offrace lol, I think he was only diamond) and got promoted to masters league.
I had over 1600 bonus pool points but I don't think I ever get extra points from my pool, I seem to always get 20-30 points if they're favoured and 10 point or so if it's even. I still don't understand how bonus pool works.
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 13:19 GMT
#152
Has anyone heard anything about people being demoted from Masters?

I'm assuming that since there is a cap of the # of people in masters, there should be a lot of demotions.

For i.e

Just say masters can only have 1000 people, but there were 5000 people that were eligible based on their MMR.

Now just say the bottom half of that 5000 people played the first game first so they all got into masters, now the top 1000, play their game - what will happen to the bottom 1000 that got in originally? If they never play a game will they sit in masters? when would they demoted?
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
January 12 2011 13:31 GMT
#153
banhxeo : diamond is never 20% off all, never was never will is around 7,5-8%
check out this: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all, like I said.. 7.5% global.
Master will be around 1.5-2% that means 25-30% from actual diamond.
And there is no such think that : active diamond, there is just diamond
Maru | Life | herO
zDUST
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland165 Posts
January 12 2011 13:33 GMT
#154
the number of people in any division is determined by % of active players. Promotions and deotions will/should work as before. All they did was add a small division at the top...

@ anyone confused by lower rank players getting promoted over high rank diamond. It's exactly the same when a plat player with lower points gets promoted but the #9 rank with 2k points does not.
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
January 12 2011 13:49 GMT
#155
On January 12 2011 21:15 dtz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 21:11 JDeathmetal wrote:
hmm, still don't fully understand how this master league works, just won against a 2300 master league dude, then faced 2x 2700 diamonds lost 1 won 1 and won from a 2300 diamond, still no promotion though. Altough im certain that i have an mmr of 2600-2700 I thought that would have been enough :| ! How many games do most of you win before you get promoted?


If your MMR were high enough, winning 1 game would be enough.

The fact that you have played a few games and were not promoted yet means your MMR is not at the top 2 percent of active players yet.


yep it def promotes after the first win. managed to lose 3 in a row and then win 1 and was isntantly promoted.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 14:02:03
January 12 2011 14:01 GMT
#156
Got promoted after Defeat Defeat Win. Was at 2950 approx.
The legend of Darien lives on
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
January 12 2011 14:05 GMT
#157
On January 12 2011 19:27 jarod wrote:
Guys.. Diamond means top 7 8 % from the populations.. 10% from Diamond will mean 0,7 - 0,8 % off all players not 2%. There is a big difference. Anyhow around 1% will be Masters and this is ok like this.


No. Diamond is the top 20% (-masters league) from all active players.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
QuixoticO
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands810 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 14:15:27
January 12 2011 14:13 GMT
#158
On January 12 2011 23:05 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 19:27 jarod wrote:
Guys.. Diamond means top 7 8 % from the populations.. 10% from Diamond will mean 0,7 - 0,8 % off all players not 2%. There is a big difference. Anyhow around 1% will be Masters and this is ok like this.


No. Diamond is the top 20% (-masters league) from all active players.


You sure ?

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

It's far from top 20% and how does the system count in active or inactive accounts.....
"Suum Cuique" - Cicero
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
January 12 2011 14:59 GMT
#159
So according to sc2ranks I am ranked #4,305 in the region, 8.12%. If I get this down to 2% I should get promoted? It's nice having incentives to play harder, as stupid as that is.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
January 12 2011 14:59 GMT
#160
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 12 2011 23:05 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 19:27 jarod wrote:
Guys.. Diamond means top 7 8 % from the populations.. 10% from Diamond will mean 0,7 - 0,8 % off all players not 2%. There is a big difference. Anyhow around 1% will be Masters and this is ok like this.


No. Diamond is the top 20% (-masters league) from all active players.


You sure ?

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

It's far from top 20% and how does the system count in active or inactive accounts...


The system cannot count inactive or active accounts or even if it is counting this doesn't affect anything. And btw.. where do you see this, give a link, that diamond is top 20%.. I give a really good link with the 7-8%, please prove that diamond is top 20%...
Maru | Life | herO
serA
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
42 Posts
January 12 2011 15:13 GMT
#161
I really know its a hassle sometimes to read every page and all the conversations, but sometimes people look like total idiots for the things they post because they dont. It has been iterated countless times.

-it is 2% of the ENTIRE regions (diamond may only be 8% on sc2ranks. but it is ACTIVE players) (think about all the bronze players that are inactive compared to the more active/competitive diamond player hence the huge difference between 8% total to 20% active in diamond and 40% total to 20% active in bronze)

someone confirmed that aronud 2,000 players are in masters league. that means that it is roughly around 2% or 10% of diamond (like the above poster said, .20(20%indiamond) x .1(10%ofdiamond) = .02(2%overall)

I think it is more like 2500 people get into masters but it only has been 1 day so people still havent played etc. so it looks about right. I think on threads like this, you should really read through all the conversations because it really sheds light on everything and prevents people from looking really dumb by stating something that has been proven wrong the page right before it ^^. Cheers.
serA
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
42 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 15:19:12
January 12 2011 15:16 GMT
#162
On January 12 2011 23:59 jarod wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 12 2011 23:05 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 19:27 jarod wrote:
Guys.. Diamond means top 7 8 % from the populations.. 10% from Diamond will mean 0,7 - 0,8 % off all players not 2%. There is a big difference. Anyhow around 1% will be Masters and this is ok like this.


No. Diamond is the top 20% (-masters league) from all active players.


You sure ?

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

It's far from top 20% and how does the system count in active or inactive accounts...


The system cannot count inactive or active accounts or even if it is counting this doesn't affect anything. And btw.. where do you see this, give a link, that diamond is top 20%.. I give a really good link with the 7-8%, please prove that diamond is top 20%...


filter sc2ranks.....for the past 7 days active.....youll get a good decent number....please stop trying to argue whats been proven wrong several times in the thread -0-

edit: who knows what kind of system blizzard uses but i think sc2ranks counts people as active even if they play 1 game. so it shows the very last game they played. I think there was a system before where people who played 5 games? got beta keys? maybe im wrong but blizzard might use another system. so who knows.
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/us/1/all/7

may not be perfect. but random bronze players play games every once in awhile so its almost impossible to keep a perfect ratio.
zDUST
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland165 Posts
January 12 2011 15:17 GMT
#163
here's the link for each division being 20% active players..

http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1690172#blog

Q: How do I get into the Master League?
A: Only the top 2% of active players in each region will be elevated to the Master League. Because the Diamond League accounts for 20% of all active players, even the #1 ranked player in your Diamond division may not necessarily be promoted to Master League. Our automated placement system compares your player skill to that of all players in your region by way of matches played, just as we do with the Top 200, to determine eligibility.
Coulthard
Profile Joined September 2005
Greece3359 Posts
January 12 2011 15:20 GMT
#164
I just got promoted to masters league after going 1-4 with like 60 games overall.So 2% you wish,master league is just the new diamond. After a few more patches we are going to have like 10 different categories when they could simply remove the bonus pool ladder is so weird
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
January 12 2011 15:24 GMT
#165
On January 13 2011 00:13 serA wrote:
I really know its a hassle sometimes to read every page and all the conversations, but sometimes people look like total idiots for the things they post because they dont. It has been iterated countless times.

-it is 2% of the ENTIRE regions (diamond may only be 8% on sc2ranks. but it is ACTIVE players) (think about all the bronze players that are inactive compared to the more active/competitive diamond player hence the huge difference between 8% total to 20% active in diamond and 40% total to 20% active in bronze)

someone confirmed that aronud 2,000 players are in masters league. that means that it is roughly around 2% or 10% of diamond (like the above poster said, .20(20%indiamond) x .1(10%ofdiamond) = .02(2%overall)

I think it is more like 2500 people get into masters but it only has been 1 day so people still havent played etc. so it looks about right. I think on threads like this, you should really read through all the conversations because it really sheds light on everything and prevents people from looking really dumb by stating something that has been proven wrong the page right before it ^^. Cheers.


Okay so why does it specifically say top 2% in your active region on the Blizzard announcement? They are misleading?

Q: How do I get into the Master League?

A: Only the top 2% of active players in each region will be elevated to the Master League. Because the Diamond League accounts for 20% of all active players, even the #1 ranked player in your Diamond division may not necessarily be promoted to Master League. Our automated placement system compares your player skill to that of all players in your region by way of matches played, just as we do with the Top 200, to determine eligibility.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
SeakayKu
Profile Joined October 2010
United States128 Posts
January 12 2011 15:25 GMT
#166
2993 diamond @ defiler foxtrot, bonus pool at 10
qued, versus even opponent
won the game, gave me +12 for winning and +10 bonus
promoted into master league at 2351 points
no bonus pool
won another game, +22 points, now sitting at 2373
is this helpful?
It's an Art and I hope I can see beautifully fought matches.
Lipski
Profile Joined October 2010
Poland373 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 15:36:02
January 12 2011 15:32 GMT
#167
i just HAVE to post this.
i just got promoted to masters league, and im in division with TLO and Socke and ClouD.
I AM THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE
"i'll just train hard and win the next one"
iamcup
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland58 Posts
January 12 2011 15:38 GMT
#168
I just played one game and got promoted to masters has that happened to anyone else?
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 15:40 GMT
#169
On January 13 2011 00:38 iamcup wrote:
I just played one game and got promoted to masters has that happened to anyone else?


LOL are you being serious? I really suggest you reading one of posts before asking a question like this
MGHova
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada274 Posts
January 12 2011 15:55 GMT
#170
Great job excaliber thanks for always doing this .

I went from 2826 diamond s class to 2306 masters. I dropped from 2950 in one night before the patch. Not sure if that effected my masters points...... Actually if I'm not mistaken is it your points that determine your points in masters and just mmr to get into masters league.
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
January 12 2011 15:55 GMT
#171
On January 12 2011 18:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 18:26 sleepingdog wrote:
On January 12 2011 18:03 Greyhawk wrote:
Hey quick question.. what does it mean if i have a 2.1k bonus pool? O_O


It means that:
a) you haven't played much games
b) you lack the skill of reading this thread

On topic: I'm a more or less borderline EU-case (1270 points, 1200 bonus pool; matched up against 2500-2700 in my recent games). I would really appreciate it if people who got promoted in EU and are rather "low" could report their points. Although I obviously realize it's based on MMR, since this isn't visible, I'd love to know the "average points-cap" for the EU-region (bonus pool added for obvious reasons).

While it's not EU, I know infinity21 got promoted with only about 1800

I also had 1.1k+ bonus pool lol
Official Entusman #21
Nokarot
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 16:33:13
January 12 2011 16:23 GMT
#172
Yeahhhh.. I'm on the US, haven't played in months. My bonus pool has 1500 unspent. I just played one singular game and got promoted to Masters. Rest assured, I am not in the top 2% of America.

92nd place (out of 89) in Hellion Tango!

+ Show Spoiler [Screenshot] +
[image loading]
beep beep boop
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 16:45:26
January 12 2011 16:34 GMT
#173
I am the saddest player in the world: 2.7k on the Eu server and didn't promote... shall I hang myself with an ethernet wire, or swallow a mouse cut into pieces?
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
January 12 2011 16:46 GMT
#174
I was 1750 diamond with 1k bonus and i promoted winning a game and have 1327 points atm
skipdog172
Profile Joined June 2010
United States331 Posts
January 12 2011 16:50 GMT
#175
On January 12 2011 10:31 politik wrote:
Masters league is basically the new diamond, anyone can get in. (If you are active) Very disappointing.


What are you talking about? Stop with the elitism. I haven't seen anybody post who isn't deserving of Master League. I'm a 2200 diamond who has been working hard on improving, and I won't get in "just by being active". I have to improve my game a lot. I'm so sick of comments like this.
skipdog172
Profile Joined June 2010
United States331 Posts
January 12 2011 16:52 GMT
#176
On January 13 2011 00:20 Coulthard wrote:
I just got promoted to masters league after going 1-4 with like 60 games overall.So 2% you wish,master league is just the new diamond. After a few more patches we are going to have like 10 different categories when they could simply remove the bonus pool ladder is so weird


Clearly your hidden MMR is probably in the 2700+ range. Promotion isn't based on winrate and it doesn't care how many games you've played. It cares about your hidden MMR and 60 games is enough to show the system that you are on even footing with players in the 2700+ diamond range and thus deserve the promotion.
politik
Profile Joined September 2010
409 Posts
January 12 2011 17:06 GMT
#177
On January 13 2011 01:50 skipdog172 wrote:

What are you talking about? Stop with the elitism. I haven't seen anybody post who isn't deserving of Master League. I'm a 2200 diamond who has been working hard on improving, and I won't get in "just by being active". I have to improve my game a lot. I'm so sick of comments like this.


Lol elitist, I wish. I consider myself very mediocre at this game, especially solo. I thought master's league would be elite players, semipro or just below. If someone like me can get into master's it means nothing at all.
cHaNg-sTa
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1058 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 17:08:44
January 12 2011 17:07 GMT
#178
Someone with 1200 points who hasn't played in awhile got promoted to Masters... this is just dumb.
Jaedong <3 HOOK'EM HORNS!
vizir
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland154 Posts
January 12 2011 17:21 GMT
#179
On January 13 2011 02:06 politik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 01:50 skipdog172 wrote:

What are you talking about? Stop with the elitism. I haven't seen anybody post who isn't deserving of Master League. I'm a 2200 diamond who has been working hard on improving, and I won't get in "just by being active". I have to improve my game a lot. I'm so sick of comments like this.


Lol elitist, I wish. I consider myself very mediocre at this game, especially solo. I thought master's league would be elite players, semipro or just below. If someone like me can get into master's it means nothing at all.


yeaah.. kinda same feelings here. It would've been cooler if you actually had to know how to play in order to get into Master. I haven't been playing much sc2 lately and thought it would be nice new goal to try get into Master league. Lost 3 games, won 1, got promoted to Master --> back to WoW. No skills needed.
Jin
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Canada439 Posts
January 12 2011 17:22 GMT
#180
1500 diamond.... 1k or 2k+ bonus pool, havent played in a long time, got in with masters with 1 game
^-^v
skipdog172
Profile Joined June 2010
United States331 Posts
January 12 2011 17:23 GMT
#181
On January 13 2011 02:06 politik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 01:50 skipdog172 wrote:

What are you talking about? Stop with the elitism. I haven't seen anybody post who isn't deserving of Master League. I'm a 2200 diamond who has been working hard on improving, and I won't get in "just by being active". I have to improve my game a lot. I'm so sick of comments like this.


Lol elitist, I wish. I consider myself very mediocre at this game, especially solo. I thought master's league would be elite players, semipro or just below. If someone like me can get into master's it means nothing at all.


Ok, so you have an ELO of 2700+ and you consider yourself bad. That's fine. I'm just sick of the "ANYBODY CAN GET INTO MASTER LEAGUE IF YOU ARE ACTIVE" crap. No, not anybody can get to that ELO. I just don't understand why some of you want to belittle the Master League. We get that there is a gap between the top top players and 2700 elo, but that does not make getting to 2700 elo easy. You clearly want Master League to be top 200 or something like that, but that really alienates a lot of players. I just hate the whole attitude of "if you aren't top 200, you are a horrible player". Yes, compared to those top pros, all of us are pretty horrible. I just don't see a point in trying to belittling other people's accomplishment in making Master League and trying to point out that it doesn't mean anything. It just seems rude and unnecessary.
politik
Profile Joined September 2010
409 Posts
January 12 2011 17:37 GMT
#182
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 12 2011 17:38 GMT
#183
Do you have to win to get promoted or just play?
Apologize.
CASLsoju
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada253 Posts
January 12 2011 17:40 GMT
#184
On January 13 2011 02:37 politik wrote:
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.


Starcraft isn't something governed by talent. It's practice, pure practice.
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
January 12 2011 17:42 GMT
#185
On January 13 2011 02:37 politik wrote:
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.


no it wont. ppl keep their mmr and the one placement is merely a activity check.


the master league does exactly what it should. create a league for the top 2%(or wahtever the real number now is) . thats what it does and nothing more. and at some point well have the gradnmasters for the top 200.


i do think too that im pretty crappy at this game and i didnt even play for 2 months until last week. but im in masters and a shitton of people apparently cant get in there.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
politik
Profile Joined September 2010
409 Posts
January 12 2011 17:42 GMT
#186
On January 13 2011 02:40 eveo wrote:

Starcraft isn't something governed by talent. It's practice, pure practice.


This is what untalented people say as an excuse. "Oh that guy tries so hard, that's why he's better than me."
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 17:45 GMT
#187
On January 13 2011 02:40 eveo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 02:37 politik wrote:
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.


Starcraft isn't something governed by talent. It's practice, pure practice.



??? How do you figure...According to your logic if you have 1000 people playing sc2 for the same amount of hours every single day, they will all be the same skill level at the end of the day...
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
January 12 2011 17:45 GMT
#188
On January 13 2011 02:42 politik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 02:40 eveo wrote:

Starcraft isn't something governed by talent. It's practice, pure practice.


This is what untalented people say as an excuse. "Oh that guy tries so hard, that's why he's better than me."


Talent, or the lack there of, can be overcome through sheer practice and determination. It's when talent and determination combine that you get something ridiculous like Flash or JD.
Moderator
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 17:47:20
January 12 2011 17:47 GMT
#189
...
Moderator
Boundless
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada588 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 17:59:01
January 12 2011 17:57 GMT
#190
Untrue. It's been empirically shown that in sport, the only time where talent creates divergence from the pack is at the very very top level (also the very bottom level, but I don't think we're talking about that in this thread).

The way it's explained is this: In something like Starcraft, at the mid-diamond (2400-2500) level, every player is relatively equal in the sense that they have no professional coaching, no Star-specific physical training, and a lot of other things that make them mediocre compared to top diamond (3200+) players. Since talent requires cultivation by proper coaching and proper practice, the relative talents of the mid-diamond players don't play a role in their performance. The ones that practice harder and more effectively will get better, even if they have relatively little talent.

At the top level (and I'm talking Korean team house top) EVERY player is well coached, most of them train physically and mentally specifically to perform better in Starcraft, and have a very strict practice routine. When everyone has those fundamental bases of top sport performance, the thing that can create divergence between the players is what people label as talent.

Example: Let's say we took Ret and put him in the same house as Jaedong. They both did the same physical training and stuck to the same diet. Let's also say that Ret practiced the same amount as Jaedong. (Noone can ever match the pure amount of practice that man does, but let's stipulate that Ret could.) If they played 20 games, Jaedong would win all 20. He has an unbelievable talent, something that others cannot match even if they could match his work ethic.

Ben Hogan (one of the most legendary golfers of the past) said that there are only three ways to beat someone. You outwork them, you out-think them, or you intimidate them. That's very very true for the vast majority of players in any sport, but it does not apply at the tip-top level. Given two players with the same training regimen and thought process, the scales will tip in favour of the one who has more talent.
"Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." - Romans 6:14
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 12 2011 18:14 GMT
#191
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?
YokaY
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States108 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 18:19:45
January 12 2011 18:19 GMT
#192
The masters league system is pretty ingenious thinking from blizzard.

A lot of players are complaining about how easy it is to get into masters league, but I don't think the point is for elite players to be in a league on their own. Grandmasters will serve this purpose.

Instead, they put the players that don't care about fluff and division modifiers in a league. This way they can actually see where they stand.
At the same time the players that are more casual get to keep their feeling of accomplishment.

It's a great move. Now saying, "I'm xxxx points masters" will be more revealing, instead of wondering if they are in an a,b,c,d-rated division.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 18:20:49
January 12 2011 18:20 GMT
#193
10% of the total amount of divisions currently in Diamond should be about how many masters league divisions would be created..
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
QuixoticO
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands810 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 18:27:44
January 12 2011 18:26 GMT
#194
On January 13 2011 02:37 politik wrote:
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.


Well guess what NOT EVERYONE WILL BE ABLE TO GET IN. Everyone in this thread is acting like top 2% is something easy to achieve. If that isn't hard enough to get in for you keep on trying for the Grand Master League/Top 200.
"Suum Cuique" - Cicero
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 18:29 GMT
#195
Anyone hear of anyone being demoted from masters?
Starstuff
Profile Joined January 2009
Croatia60 Posts
January 12 2011 18:30 GMT
#196
Sorry if it was already mentioned here, i couldnt read the whole thing but, does bonus pool rise in masters? in about 6hrs not one point returned on my acc.
Always remember that you are unique... Just like everyone else.
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 18:32:24
January 12 2011 18:31 GMT
#197
TBH it sounds like people have a better chance of getting into masters if they are inactive as we have seen a bunch of 1200 - 2000 players get in who have insane high bonus pools. So like if I had just stopped playing 1500 I wonder if I would have been invited to masters league as oppose to continue playing up to 2400 and get no promotion, also I bet that guy who posted who said hes 2700+ and got no promotion doesn't have a big bonus pool.
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 18:34 GMT
#198
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.
Moderator
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 18:37 GMT
#199
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.


Why would it trikle out? because the amount of active players decreas? therefores 2% of population decreases?
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 12 2011 18:42 GMT
#200
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.
Jpk
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11 Posts
January 12 2011 18:47 GMT
#201
On January 13 2011 01:34 Macpo wrote:
I am the saddest player in the world: 2.7k on the Eu server and didn't promote... shall I hang myself with an ethernet wire, or swallow a mouse cut into pieces?


Mouse cut into pieces imo
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 18:50:04
January 12 2011 18:49 GMT
#202
I'm currently 2344 point Diamond with 289 bonus pool. I'm now rank 4 Diamond, I was rank 12 2 days ago and the highest rated player in my division was 2850 points, 8 players have advanced from above me.

So I'd say I'm just below the cutoff for now.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Jpk
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11 Posts
January 12 2011 18:52 GMT
#203
Its not about points its about MMR.
Shadowed
Profile Joined August 2010
United States679 Posts
January 12 2011 18:53 GMT
#204
On January 13 2011 03:37 CrayonKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.


Why would it trikle out? because the amount of active players decreas? therefores 2% of population decreases?


In theory you would hit the limit of people in a league. It's supposed to be 2%, but who knows with Blizzard. Will see in a few days I'd imagine.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 19:00 GMT
#205
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.
Moderator
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 12 2011 19:00 GMT
#206
On January 13 2011 03:52 Jpk wrote:
Its not about points its about MMR.

But I normally play vs 2700-3000 players and have only 300 games played, I'd imagine my MMR to be higher than the points if anything.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
optical630
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom768 Posts
January 12 2011 19:11 GMT
#207
my friend at 1800 got promoted


its MMR not ladder points that'll get u into masters, so win more than you lose and you'll get there
Zeri
Profile Joined March 2010
United States773 Posts
January 12 2011 19:12 GMT
#208
On January 13 2011 01:34 Macpo wrote:
I am the saddest player in the world: 2.7k on the Eu server and didn't promote... shall I hang myself with an ethernet wire, or swallow a mouse cut into pieces?



Hah I'm the same. 2700 point and 2 people below me in my division got promoted. but I went 0-5 when I logged on yesterday.


oops.
You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.
Moonquake
Profile Joined April 2010
United States36 Posts
January 12 2011 19:13 GMT
#209
Yeah I just got promoted from around 1000 points. Now I'm at the bottom of my master's with a giant bonus pool
IPA
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3206 Posts
January 12 2011 19:21 GMT
#210
Was ranked #2 in my shitty Diamond division last night -- got promoted after going 7-2 at 2765 pts (0 bonus pool).

I am now ranked 33rd in Master division Ehlna Chi at 2331 pts (no games played since promotion). So I lost 434 points and I had no bonus pool. Not sure if that info is helpful Excalibur, but just wanted to throw it out there.

ppgBubbles and NrGMalice in my division. :D
Time held me green and dying though I sang in my chains like the sea.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 12 2011 19:21 GMT
#211
On January 13 2011 04:11 optical630 wrote:
my friend at 1800 got promoted


its MMR not ladder points that'll get u into masters, so win more than you lose and you'll get there

I'm 184-155, 54.2% ratio. I've gone 5-0 today, still no promotion. =S

Aah, the first 4 games were against 2500-2700 diamonds, but the fifth one was against a master. Sighity sigh, maybe I just need to win more against masters. Though this guy in Masters is 144-133, way worse ratio than me. >< Sigh I'm irritated.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Bluetea
Profile Joined August 2010
United States185 Posts
January 12 2011 19:22 GMT
#212
I keep getting matched up against Master league players and winning, yet no promotion. I guess I don't understand the promotion system.
All these bitches is my sons.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
January 12 2011 19:24 GMT
#213
On January 13 2011 04:21 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:11 optical630 wrote:
my friend at 1800 got promoted


its MMR not ladder points that'll get u into masters, so win more than you lose and you'll get there

I'm 184-155, 54.2% ratio. I've gone 5-0 today, still no promotion. =S

Aah, the first 4 games were against 2500-2700 diamonds, but the fifth one was against a master. Sighity sigh, maybe I just need to win more against masters. Though this guy in Masters is 144-133, way worse ratio than me. >< Sigh I'm irritated.

You'll be always master in my eyes buddy!:D
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 12 2011 19:30 GMT
#214
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)
Zacsafus
Profile Joined May 2010
England255 Posts
January 12 2011 19:31 GMT
#215
2.7k on EU not premoted yet despite going 5-2 i guess ill just have to duke it out some more, its really wierd that im smashing the faces of 2300 masters players yet im slightly favored and in diamond still D:

The waiting game begins! Master by the weekend ftw!
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
January 12 2011 19:39 GMT
#216
On January 13 2011 04:21 IPA wrote:
Was ranked #2 in my shitty Diamond division last night -- got promoted after going 7-2 at 2765 pts (0 bonus pool).

I am now ranked 33rd in Master division Ehlna Chi at 2331 pts (no games played since promotion). So I lost 434 points and I had no bonus pool. Not sure if that info is helpful Excalibur, but just wanted to throw it out there.

ppgBubbles and NrGMalice in my division. :D


Biggest reason why Master League is AWESOME right here.

Went from being #2 and having no hope of ever hitting #1 (he was ~300-400pts ahead of me at any given time) to ~35 in Master. My division once again matters to me, and I can look at my rank to see if I am improving on a daily basis.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 19:44 GMT
#217
On January 13 2011 04:30 decaf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)


I'm not suggesting that pros would all be lumped into a single or pair of Master divisions. I'm saying their points will increase more rapidly than other players, and that will be more evident because there are no division tiers in Master league obfuscating things. The only reason so many well-known players were grouped together in the same 2-3 Diamond divisions (which were all not coincidentally S-Rank) is because they were able to rise to the highest tier of Diamond.
Moderator
vnlegend
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1389 Posts
January 12 2011 19:48 GMT
#218
Well this is weird. I had 2905 pts in Diamond league, my division had +189 point modifier. I played one game, won like 24+ pts and got promoted and now I only have 2270 pts.
Marines > everything
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#219
On January 13 2011 04:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:30 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)


I'm not suggesting that pros would all be lumped into a single or pair of Master divisions. I'm saying their points will increase more rapidly than other players, and that will be more evident because there are no division tiers in Master league obfuscating things. The only reason so many well-known players were grouped together in the same 2-3 Diamond divisions (which were all not coincidentally S-Rank) is because they were able to rise to the highest tier of Diamond.


Since you can't get moved from one division to another, isn't the reason a lot of pros got into the same division because they were more likely to be the first ones to be promoted to diamond? I didn't get to diamond until a month after the game came out when all of the pros were already in a full diamond division. I could have gone 2000-0 and I still wouldn't have gotten put in one of their divisions, right?
Apologize.
Goolpsy
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark301 Posts
January 12 2011 19:51 GMT
#220
I was 2395 point Diamond with (379 bonus pool), After promotion: 1971 (368 bp) does this correspond to what everyone else is experiencing?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 19:52 GMT
#221
On January 13 2011 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:30 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)


I'm not suggesting that pros would all be lumped into a single or pair of Master divisions. I'm saying their points will increase more rapidly than other players, and that will be more evident because there are no division tiers in Master league obfuscating things. The only reason so many well-known players were grouped together in the same 2-3 Diamond divisions (which were all not coincidentally S-Rank) is because they were able to rise to the highest tier of Diamond.


Since you can't get moved from one division to another, isn't the reason a lot of pros got into the same division because they were more likely to be the first ones to be promoted to diamond? I didn't get to diamond until a month after the game came out when all of the pros were already in a full diamond division. I could have gone 2000-0 and I still wouldn't have gotten put in one of their divisions, right?


Divisions cap out so that's immaterial, but you would have been put in a Diamond division of equal rank if you were playing at their level. Ret did, lalush did, Nazgul did, all those guys joined the NA server late but ended up in S-Rank divisions.
Moderator
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 12 2011 20:01 GMT
#222
On January 13 2011 04:52 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:30 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)


I'm not suggesting that pros would all be lumped into a single or pair of Master divisions. I'm saying their points will increase more rapidly than other players, and that will be more evident because there are no division tiers in Master league obfuscating things. The only reason so many well-known players were grouped together in the same 2-3 Diamond divisions (which were all not coincidentally S-Rank) is because they were able to rise to the highest tier of Diamond.


Since you can't get moved from one division to another, isn't the reason a lot of pros got into the same division because they were more likely to be the first ones to be promoted to diamond? I didn't get to diamond until a month after the game came out when all of the pros were already in a full diamond division. I could have gone 2000-0 and I still wouldn't have gotten put in one of their divisions, right?


Divisions cap out so that's immaterial, but you would have been put in a Diamond division of equal rank if you were playing at their level. Ret did, lalush did, Nazgul did, all those guys joined the NA server late but ended up in S-Rank divisions.


What I don't understand is that you get put into your diamond division like 30 games in. Let's say I play 30 games, get put into a bad division, and then I let HuK play on my account (or I just get really, really good all of a sudden which isn't impossible). He's going to be stuck in a terrible division forever isn't he?
Apologize.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 20:07 GMT
#223
On January 13 2011 05:01 Neo.NEt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 04:52 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:30 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 04:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:42 decaf wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 13 2011 03:14 decaf wrote:
Do you already know how many masters leagues there are going to be for each region, excalibur?


Divisions, you mean? It's going to depend on how many players resume playing as a result of the patch. I'd estimate 16-20 divisions to start on the NA server, then slowly trickling out from there as either more Master players go inactive or more players in the lower leagues come back from inactive status.

Yeah divisions.. didn't get much to sleep for days now..

There are already 25 divisions for the US (if you check sc2ranks) and 16 for the EU, but I kinda don't think that's gonna be as high as it will get, but the ratio (25 : 16) will remain the same. It's cool to have a league only including so few divisions.
But I think even the masters league needs modifiers and it may very well have, because I'm in the same division as mondragon and a friend of mine (who's better than me) is in the same division as WhiteRa and another one (who's better too) got Madfrog. So there might be a modifier, dunno though.


I'm still not seeing any evidence of modifiers for Master league, they still seem to be popping up only one division at a time (sc2ranks isn't the most accurate source for this because divisions aren't all updated simultaneously). Inevitably what we'll see is those very good players start separating themselves from the pack, just as what happened with Diamond league only to a more obvious degree.


I don't see the pros seperating from the non-pros division-wise. I don't know how it looks like in NA but in the EU the pros are WAY more spread out now. They used to be in like 2 division, now there are 0-3 pros per division (most commonly there will be one well-known pro per division)


I'm not suggesting that pros would all be lumped into a single or pair of Master divisions. I'm saying their points will increase more rapidly than other players, and that will be more evident because there are no division tiers in Master league obfuscating things. The only reason so many well-known players were grouped together in the same 2-3 Diamond divisions (which were all not coincidentally S-Rank) is because they were able to rise to the highest tier of Diamond.


Since you can't get moved from one division to another, isn't the reason a lot of pros got into the same division because they were more likely to be the first ones to be promoted to diamond? I didn't get to diamond until a month after the game came out when all of the pros were already in a full diamond division. I could have gone 2000-0 and I still wouldn't have gotten put in one of their divisions, right?


Divisions cap out so that's immaterial, but you would have been put in a Diamond division of equal rank if you were playing at their level. Ret did, lalush did, Nazgul did, all those guys joined the NA server late but ended up in S-Rank divisions.


What I don't understand is that you get put into your diamond division like 30 games in. Let's say I play 30 games, get put into a bad division, and then I let HuK play on my account (or I just get really, really good all of a sudden which isn't impossible). He's going to be stuck in a terrible division forever isn't he?


Yes. Generally speaking though, by most measurements, skill doesn't dramatically improve like that. In the events that it does (say you discover a new strategy) then you would be promoted into a completely different league instead. I don't know if they anticipated players who were good enough to get into Diamond improving enough to be matched against the highest end of Diamond, so that may be yet another reason for the Master league.
Moderator
fdsdfg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1251 Posts
January 12 2011 20:14 GMT
#224
I'm a pretty consistent 2600 Diamond player with no bonus pool, and I get about a 50% win rate against people my level.. meaning my MMR and points are properly aligned.

I've played like 12 games since 1.2 with no promotion to Masters, I wonder if I'm just below the cutoff or something?
aka Siyko
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 12 2011 20:14 GMT
#225
Exacalibur,

What do you think is going to happen as master league progress, for i.e 1month from now.

Will a lot of people be demoted back to diamond?

How i figure is that right now is very early, so just for simplicity sake, say there is 1000 spots available in masters but 2000 people acceptable (based on MMR). If the bottom 1000 of the 2000 all palyed 1 game and won they would all be in masters.

Now if the top 1000 players play a game, would the bottom half all be demoted?
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
January 12 2011 20:15 GMT
#226
I don't understand how a 1400 rated player can get promoted to masters.... Can someone explain this to me? Sure his record was good but still.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
ArtemisKnives
Profile Joined March 2010
United States210 Posts
January 12 2011 20:17 GMT
#227
I played 1 game and got promoted. I was a 1000 rated Diamond protoss. Now I'm a 700 rated Master Protoss. My bonus pool was 1700 at the time of promotion.

The guy I beat to get promoted was #1 in his league 2800 diamond terran who shortly after I won, won his next game and was promoted as well.
Masters/GM S1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 Macro Toss // twitch.tv/artemisknives [1080p stream]
TheDna
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany577 Posts
January 12 2011 20:19 GMT
#228
The Masterleague is the biggest fail of all times.
It should be a league where only pros and semi-pros are with some very very talented none-pros.

Prepatch there was a super good Diamond league with 80% of all the euro pros. Now all of them got split into Masterleagues mixed with 99.9% nonames. Really stupid....
Bonkarooni
Profile Joined October 2010
United States383 Posts
January 12 2011 20:19 GMT
#229
On January 13 2011 05:15 GreEny K wrote:
I don't understand how a 1400 rated player can get promoted to masters.... Can someone explain this to me? Sure his record was good but still.


They have explained it several times throughout this post, if you would just read the replies. MMR, not actual rating, is what promotes you.
SlapMySalami
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1060 Posts
January 12 2011 20:20 GMT
#230
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
An active player is defined as a player who has not played a certain minimum number of games per week.



is this right? if so i do not understand.. i would think this is the definition of an INACTIVE player
marineking will u huk my bigtt1 ilu
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
January 12 2011 20:22 GMT
#231
Greeny et al, points don't matter. It is the MMR that determines promotion/demotion, and this number is hidden.

If at release I played and was a 800 point diamond, then quit and started to play again just now, I would probably be playing 3000+ diamonds because my MMR is that high. My points wouldn't matter in this case, that is the effect of bonus pool. MMR and division points are two standards of measuring a player, it just so happens that one we can see and the other we can't.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
January 12 2011 20:23 GMT
#232
On January 13 2011 04:00 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 03:52 Jpk wrote:
Its not about points its about MMR.

But I normally play vs 2700-3000 players and have only 300 games played, I'd imagine my MMR to be higher than the points if anything.


This is more-or-less happening to me as well. MMR seems to have been left unchanged.
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 20:24 GMT
#233
On January 13 2011 05:20 SlapMySalami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 08:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
An active player is defined as a player who has not played a certain minimum number of games per week.



is this right? if so i do not understand.. i would think this is the definition of an INACTIVE player


haha. You are defined as someone who has not corrected my post, and I therefore did not fix it.
Moderator
skipdog172
Profile Joined June 2010
United States331 Posts
January 12 2011 20:31 GMT
#234
On January 13 2011 05:19 TheDna wrote:
The Masterleague is the biggest fail of all times.
It should be a league where only pros and semi-pros are with some very very talented none-pros.

Prepatch there was a super good Diamond league with 80% of all the euro pros. Now all of them got split into Masterleagues mixed with 99.9% nonames. Really stupid....


Do you realize that a Grand Master League is coming as well? It seems to describe what you want(a top 200 league basically).

What does it matter if they are in different divisions? I didn't even realize people cared about divisions in the slightest bit. They have no impact on anything. What does it matter if lots of the top top players are divided between a few divisions rather than ALL divisions? I guess I don't understand why divisions matter at all or why you think it is stupid...

Barty
Profile Joined December 2010
France64 Posts
January 12 2011 20:33 GMT
#235
Got promoted on my 2 accounts :
first one has 60 games played, 800 points, facing mostly 2900ish players and placed in a reasonably good division, I played 1 game vs. a 2400 Master, won it (was very very very close), got promoted.
Second account : 2000 points with about 200 games, 600 bonus pool left, i played 5 games and got promoted.
Sounds like MMR is working wonder for me.
In God We Trush
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 20:33 GMT
#236
On January 13 2011 05:31 skipdog172 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 05:19 TheDna wrote:
The Masterleague is the biggest fail of all times.
It should be a league where only pros and semi-pros are with some very very talented none-pros.

Prepatch there was a super good Diamond league with 80% of all the euro pros. Now all of them got split into Masterleagues mixed with 99.9% nonames. Really stupid....


Do you realize that a Grand Master League is coming as well? It seems to describe what you want(a top 200 league basically).

What does it matter if they are in different divisions? I didn't even realize people cared about divisions in the slightest bit. They have no impact on anything. What does it matter if lots of the top top players are divided between a few divisions rather than ALL divisions? I guess I don't understand why divisions matter at all or why you think it is stupid...



Yeah. The points are actually legitimately comparable between Master divisions. You only have to go as far as SC2Ranks to view a complete list of Master players and their points in one compiled list.
Moderator
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
January 12 2011 20:37 GMT
#237
Prepatch there was a super good Diamond league with 80% of all the euro pros. Now all of them got split into Masterleagues mixed with 99.9% nonames. Really stupid...


I don't get why it matters. The divisions don't mean anything, it isn't like you compete against only people from your division, or there is something gained by being first place in it. The highest MMR players still play the other highest MMR players. Aside from just being able to quickly look at one division to see comparative points(which you can just go on sc2ranks to look at) I don't see how it matters.

Maybe since they removed the modifiers across the masters divisions points might mean a bit more to some degree, but really until they just start showing people's MMRs the whole points/divisions thing is dumb and doesn't mean anything really.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
January 12 2011 20:41 GMT
#238
On January 13 2011 05:22 tehemperorer wrote:
Greeny et al, points don't matter. It is the MMR that determines promotion/demotion, and this number is hidden.

If at release I played and was a 800 point diamond, then quit and started to play again just now, I would probably be playing 3000+ diamonds because my MMR is that high. My points wouldn't matter in this case, that is the effect of bonus pool. MMR and division points are two standards of measuring a player, it just so happens that one we can see and the other we can't.


aha, well that blows. Im at 2400 beating 2900 players and then ill lose to an 1800 player so I doubt im going anywhere.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
January 12 2011 20:45 GMT
#239
every single person is favored against me now, and others have similar problems. I guess this already has been posted, but still, +1 then
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
TheOnlyOne
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany155 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 20:52:49
January 12 2011 20:51 GMT
#240
Why they didnt put in Grand master aswell ?

Isnt it "that" big difference to simply take the Top 200 and make it happen ?

*Seems to be a waste of time to not release Grand Master aswell.

**But ok; give the System a month and it should at least "balance" out somehow.

***Currently i feel like the peops i played in Master are way worser than the ones i played in Diamant a week before ...
Beside that pretty much everyone is "favoured" all the time no matter what i gain around +20 points and lose -0 ; so far it seems completly unexplainable compared to existing systems in "non" master.
But this part is what i think might fix itself in the next month ; otherwise they must fix it asap
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 20:54:56
January 12 2011 20:53 GMT
#241
Hmmm I'd say it'll be around 2700-2750 points(including your bonus pool) that should be enough for Masters, might differ for regions other than EU and keep in mind my division is probably the worst on EU.

I'm 2471 points with 208 pool without promotion so you probably need more than that.



Also, I'd just use points + bonus pool as an alternative to MMR, I doubt it's too different unless you're like 150-0 or alternatively like 2500-2500(or would have before masters came out).


On January 13 2011 05:45 Geo.Rion wrote:
every single person is favored against me now, and others have similar problems. I guess this already has been posted, but still, +1 then

Its comparing your actual points to their MMR, their MMR is probably like 2700-3500 and your points are like 2400 so it's going to be favored for a while.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
January 12 2011 20:59 GMT
#242
On January 13 2011 05:41 GreEny K wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 05:22 tehemperorer wrote:
Greeny et al, points don't matter. It is the MMR that determines promotion/demotion, and this number is hidden.

If at release I played and was a 800 point diamond, then quit and started to play again just now, I would probably be playing 3000+ diamonds because my MMR is that high. My points wouldn't matter in this case, that is the effect of bonus pool. MMR and division points are two standards of measuring a player, it just so happens that one we can see and the other we can't.


aha, well that blows. Im at 2400 beating 2900 players and then ill lose to an 1800 player so I doubt im going anywhere.

But the points you get or lose are based on MMR, not point totals. You might have gotten a +9 for beating that 2900 player because his MMR was on the slide, where you might have lost only 6 points from the 1800 player because his MMR was so high but hasn't been playing much.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong (Excalibur_Z... no mention about Curtana? Durindal?) players that play each other can still show that both are favored against the other
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
January 12 2011 21:01 GMT
#243
I played 7 games today. I lost the first 6 and won the last, after which i got promoted.
And in my opinion the master league is fine as it is. No division modifiers will make points much more compareable, as long as you take unused bonus points into account. But thats not a big deal. Blizzard has to get rid of the bugs, though.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
January 12 2011 21:11 GMT
#244
On January 13 2011 03:26 Nyxs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 02:37 politik wrote:
Wow, people like you are the reason the ladder system is so stupid and convoluted. The whole point of a "master" league is that NOT EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET IN. Not everyone is created equal, some have more talent that others. The very top tier should take both talent and hard work, and people should be proud to attain that level.

That being said, once there is a ladder reset, hopefully it will become much harder to get into higher leagues since the player pool will be reduced by like 90%.


Well guess what NOT EVERYONE WILL BE ABLE TO GET IN. Everyone in this thread is acting like top 2% is something easy to achieve. If that isn't hard enough to get in for you keep on trying for the Grand Master League/Top 200.


It doesn't matter. They're complaining it isn't a league with only the most reknown players like Ret or HuK. Even Top 200 probably won't be enough for them where there are plenty of no-name-players. It has to be an All-Star roster!

W/E difference of perception than reality. If you go to a site where all the players are really good then it seems like everyone is getting in.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Butcherski
Profile Joined April 2010
Poland446 Posts
January 12 2011 21:17 GMT
#245
Was a 2500 player with ~250 bonus pool, getting matched vs 3k's constantly. Played one game today and was immediately promoted. Whats the point ?
"Well Tasteless, i once met a three-toed sloth with good marauder control " - Artosis
IPS.Mardow.
Profile Joined November 2009
Germany713 Posts
January 12 2011 21:20 GMT
#246
I won 1 game and got Master League -_____________-
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
January 12 2011 21:32 GMT
#247
On January 13 2011 05:15 GreEny K wrote:
I don't understand how a 1400 rated player can get promoted to masters.... Can someone explain this to me? Sure his record was good but still.

MMR, that is to to be said.

On the contrary I didnt understant why playing occasionally people ranked 1-10 diamond I was sitting at rank 60. This masters league is a great idea.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 12 2011 21:34 GMT
#248
On January 13 2011 06:17 Butcherski wrote:
Was a 2500 player with ~250 bonus pool, getting matched vs 3k's constantly. Played one game today and was immediately promoted. Whats the point ?

2493 points with 197 bonus pool, not promoted so... yeah, narrowing it down. ^_^
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
January 12 2011 21:34 GMT
#249
Blizzard just doesn't get it, I guess.

The difference between the top 2% of players in a region and the top 200 is Huge! The difference is larger than the entire other 98%.

And anyone that has ever played competitively and been in the top 20/200 in the world in their respective game will know this. It's not even debatable.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
January 12 2011 21:36 GMT
#250
On January 13 2011 05:53 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm I'd say it'll be around 2700-2750 points(including your bonus pool) that should be enough for Masters, might differ for regions other than EU and keep in mind my division is probably the worst on EU.

I'm 2471 points with 208 pool without promotion so you probably need more than that.



Also, I'd just use points + bonus pool as an alternative to MMR, I doubt it's too different unless you're like 150-0 or alternatively like 2500-2500(or would have before masters came out).


Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 05:45 Geo.Rion wrote:
every single person is favored against me now, and others have similar problems. I guess this already has been posted, but still, +1 then

Its comparing your actual points to their MMR, their MMR is probably like 2700-3500 and your points are like 2400 so it's going to be favored for a while.

nope, i played fellow masters leaguers and check their profile, literally it's like this +16 to +25 if WIN -3 to -8 if LOSS and that's what i have too
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
January 12 2011 21:55 GMT
#251
On January 13 2011 06:20 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
I won 1 game and got Master League -_____________-


Same. I had about 29xx points.
133 221 333 123 111
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 22:00:04
January 12 2011 21:59 GMT
#252
On January 13 2011 06:34 danl9rm wrote:
Blizzard just doesn't get it, I guess.

The difference between the top 2% of players in a region and the top 200 is Huge! The difference is larger than the entire other 98%.

And anyone that has ever played competitively and been in the top 20/200 in the world in their respective game will know this. It's not even debatable.


and your point is? grand master league will come which will be top200. masters never intended to seperate the pros from the highish diamonds. its meant to seperate the highish diamonds from the baddy diamonds. and if the assumptions are true give the competive ones a somewhat decent ladder with comparable ranks
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 22:05 GMT
#253
On January 13 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 05:41 GreEny K wrote:
On January 13 2011 05:22 tehemperorer wrote:
Greeny et al, points don't matter. It is the MMR that determines promotion/demotion, and this number is hidden.

If at release I played and was a 800 point diamond, then quit and started to play again just now, I would probably be playing 3000+ diamonds because my MMR is that high. My points wouldn't matter in this case, that is the effect of bonus pool. MMR and division points are two standards of measuring a player, it just so happens that one we can see and the other we can't.


aha, well that blows. Im at 2400 beating 2900 players and then ill lose to an 1800 player so I doubt im going anywhere.

But the points you get or lose are based on MMR, not point totals. You might have gotten a +9 for beating that 2900 player because his MMR was on the slide, where you might have lost only 6 points from the 1800 player because his MMR was so high but hasn't been playing much.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong (Excalibur_Z... no mention about Curtana? Durindal?) players that play each other can still show that both are favored against the other


Yes that's correct. I don't know what you mean about Curtana and Durindal though?
Moderator
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
January 12 2011 22:23 GMT
#254
I think its been stated 100 times already but since we've all seen the question repeatedly pop up.

MASTERS LEAGUE PROMOTION IS BASED ON MMR. DO NOT USE YOUR LADDER POINTS RANKING AS AN INDICATOR.
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 22:26 GMT
#255
^^ truth.
This is what's going to happen. The low game players never actually 1v1 alot, they just got on today simply to get to masters. After doing so they aren't going to play 1's ever again. They simply want the icon only. Statistically, the more you play, the lower your win ratio should become. It's just math, you HAVE to lose games sometime. I also think a 2.5k player with a 400-350 ratio should be more deserving than a 1.2k w/ bonus pool with a 25-10 ratio or whatever. For all I know that 25-10 could drop to a 400-400 by the time he gets to the number of games.


Unless I missed your point, win rate does not directly factor into how high your MMR is. When your win rate starts to level off, your MMR will be able to know where you are at finally.

Let's use the example you used... if the 25-10 ratio player keeps playing, sure he will level off sometimes, but the skill level where he will level off at will be much higher than the other player, who is already almost 50/50 and is probably fighting other 2.5k players.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 12 2011 22:29 GMT
#256
On January 13 2011 06:36 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 05:53 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm I'd say it'll be around 2700-2750 points(including your bonus pool) that should be enough for Masters, might differ for regions other than EU and keep in mind my division is probably the worst on EU.

I'm 2471 points with 208 pool without promotion so you probably need more than that.



Also, I'd just use points + bonus pool as an alternative to MMR, I doubt it's too different unless you're like 150-0 or alternatively like 2500-2500(or would have before masters came out).


On January 13 2011 05:45 Geo.Rion wrote:
every single person is favored against me now, and others have similar problems. I guess this already has been posted, but still, +1 then

Its comparing your actual points to their MMR, their MMR is probably like 2700-3500 and your points are like 2400 so it's going to be favored for a while.

nope, i played fellow masters leaguers and check their profile, literally it's like this +16 to +25 if WIN -3 to -8 if LOSS and that's what i have too

Because you both have less points than your opponents have MMR, so both have the opponent as favored.


2531 points, 173 bonus pool, no promotion. T_T Maybe I'll get there tomorrow.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Zacsafus
Profile Joined May 2010
England255 Posts
January 12 2011 22:32 GMT
#257
I keep playing master league players and beating them but still no promotion :S beaten like 4 now but i have lost to other diamonds in between, generally protoss -.- but anyways its beginning to really annoy me now lol.

Im 2700 or there abouts but ive only got like 40 more wins than losses, any1 else know what their win % was when they were promoted and what kind of oppoenents they were facing D:
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 12 2011 22:41 GMT
#258
Well guess what NOT EVERYONE WILL BE ABLE TO GET IN. Everyone in this thread is acting like top 2% is something easy to achieve. If that isn't hard enough to get in for you keep on trying for the Grand Master League/Top 200.


Perhaps it's because most of us know we are in the top 2%, and therefore came here to learn more. Surely you aren't implying that "most" of us equally represents all skill levels across the board?
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
SeraKuDA
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada343 Posts
January 12 2011 22:43 GMT
#259
I was 2450ish with a win percentage of only about 52%.
Got into masters, and only dropped to like 2300 pts or so..
g.o-
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada33 Posts
January 12 2011 22:47 GMT
#260
On January 13 2011 07:32 Zacsafus wrote:
I keep playing master league players and beating them but still no promotion :S beaten like 4 now but i have lost to other diamonds in between, generally protoss -.- but anyways its beginning to really annoy me now lol.

Im 2700 or there abouts but ive only got like 40 more wins than losses, any1 else know what their win % was when they were promoted and what kind of oppoenents they were facing D:


From what I understand, win % and league points have NOTHING to do with your promotion. As stated here several times, your MMR is what triggers your promotion. You may have 2700 points but that doesn't mean your MMR is high enough for promotion, yet. Even if you've been playing vs masters level players, your MMR takes time to build and is probably adjusted every X games by bnet. For example, your hidden MMR might be at 180 and the criteria for masters promotion is 200. Yes you have beaten masters level players but you've also lost to players in diamond, this probably affects the calculation of points after say, 15 games where it determines your new MMR. Some people have stated that they've played only 1 game to get promoted, this was also my case. In this scenario I think that these players are well above the 200 mark used in my previous example, thus the promotion is immediate after the first win. All I have to suggest to you is to keep playing games as that is the only way to increase your hidden MMR which decides your eligibility.

Btw, my win rate was 53% when I got promoted, doesn't mean a thing.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 12 2011 22:57 GMT
#261
On January 13 2011 07:47 g.o- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:32 Zacsafus wrote:
I keep playing master league players and beating them but still no promotion :S beaten like 4 now but i have lost to other diamonds in between, generally protoss -.- but anyways its beginning to really annoy me now lol.

Im 2700 or there abouts but ive only got like 40 more wins than losses, any1 else know what their win % was when they were promoted and what kind of oppoenents they were facing D:


From what I understand, win % and league points have NOTHING to do with your promotion. As stated here several times, your MMR is what triggers your promotion. You may have 2700 points but that doesn't mean your MMR is high enough for promotion, yet. Even if you've been playing vs masters level players, your MMR takes time to build and is probably adjusted every X games by bnet. For example, your hidden MMR might be at 180 and the criteria for masters promotion is 200. Yes you have beaten masters level players but you've also lost to players in diamond, this probably affects the calculation of points after say, 15 games where it determines your new MMR. Some people have stated that they've played only 1 game to get promoted, this was also my case. In this scenario I think that these players are well above the 200 mark used in my previous example, thus the promotion is immediate after the first win. All I have to suggest to you is to keep playing games as that is the only way to increase your hidden MMR which decides your eligibility.

Btw, my win rate was 53% when I got promoted, doesn't mean a thing.


Moving average. It doesn't check your MMR in intervals, it checks your moving average after every game to determine your eligibility.
Moderator
g.o-
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada33 Posts
January 12 2011 23:02 GMT
#262
On January 13 2011 07:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:47 g.o- wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:32 Zacsafus wrote:
I keep playing master league players and beating them but still no promotion :S beaten like 4 now but i have lost to other diamonds in between, generally protoss -.- but anyways its beginning to really annoy me now lol.

Im 2700 or there abouts but ive only got like 40 more wins than losses, any1 else know what their win % was when they were promoted and what kind of oppoenents they were facing D:


From what I understand, win % and league points have NOTHING to do with your promotion. As stated here several times, your MMR is what triggers your promotion. You may have 2700 points but that doesn't mean your MMR is high enough for promotion, yet. Even if you've been playing vs masters level players, your MMR takes time to build and is probably adjusted every X games by bnet. For example, your hidden MMR might be at 180 and the criteria for masters promotion is 200. Yes you have beaten masters level players but you've also lost to players in diamond, this probably affects the calculation of points after say, 15 games where it determines your new MMR. Some people have stated that they've played only 1 game to get promoted, this was also my case. In this scenario I think that these players are well above the 200 mark used in my previous example, thus the promotion is immediate after the first win. All I have to suggest to you is to keep playing games as that is the only way to increase your hidden MMR which decides your eligibility.

Btw, my win rate was 53% when I got promoted, doesn't mean a thing.


Moving average. It doesn't check your MMR in intervals, it checks your moving average after every game to determine your eligibility.


Oh cool, guess I had the wrong perception all along, but none the less the same concept applies.
QuixoticO
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands810 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 23:33:44
January 12 2011 23:31 GMT
#263
On January 13 2011 06:34 danl9rm wrote:
Blizzard just doesn't get it, I guess.

The difference between the top 2% of players in a region and the top 200 is Huge! The difference is larger than the entire other 98%.

And anyone that has ever played competitively and been in the top 20/200 in the world in their respective game will know this. It's not even debatable.


The skill curve goes up so fast once you reach the top players it would always end up this way unless you use a different system. There will always be Grand Master League for the top 200 and having a Master League beneath that which currently has 2.5k players on NA doesn't sound too bad if you take in consideration how large the player pool is for NA.
"Suum Cuique" - Cicero
KillerDucky
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States498 Posts
January 12 2011 23:39 GMT
#264
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471#blog
"Q: Will the Master League start with the launch of the patch?
A: The top 2% of players from the Diamond League (as determined by our system) will be promoted to the Master league starting with patch 1.2. As with all promotions, Master League placement can only occur after winning a match."

This is strange since people promote after losing all the time. Maybe it's related to their definition of "active" -- it could be that you have to win at least 1 game in the past ~7 or whatever days. And also I guess everyone was reset to inactive status when a new patch came out. So now you have to reactivate by winning a game, and then it sees you are high enough for Master's and puts you there.

That could also explain why these stats:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/7
Don't line up to 2/18/20/20/20/20 -- Bronze players are more likely to have only lost a few games in the last 7 days (no wins), so they are still not counted as active, but sc2ranks does count them as active.
MarineKingPrime Forever!
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 12 2011 23:44 GMT
#265
I would just like to point out that it looks like the match making system is trying to create divisions with a win percentage of 53% in average.

That's why it doesn't create the divisions in succession.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 23:45:26
January 12 2011 23:45 GMT
#266
On January 13 2011 08:39 KillerDucky wrote:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471#blog
"Q: Will the Master League start with the launch of the patch?
A: The top 2% of players from the Diamond League (as determined by our system) will be promoted to the Master league starting with patch 1.2. As with all promotions, Master League placement can only occur after winning a match."

This is strange since people promote after losing all the time. Maybe it's related to their definition of "active" -- it could be that you have to win at least 1 game in the past ~7 or whatever days. And also I guess everyone was reset to inactive status when a new patch came out. So now you have to reactivate by winning a game, and then it sees you are high enough for Master's and puts you there.

That could also explain why these stats:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/7
Don't line up to 2/18/20/20/20/20 -- Bronze players are more likely to have only lost a few games in the last 7 days (no wins), so they are still not counted as active, but sc2ranks does count them as active.

I dont think it's meant as immidiately after winning. I think it means it as you have to win a game to be promoted. Same as we had demuslim being stuck in platinum with a million points because u have to lose a game within the "moving average" batch to be promoted as well.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
SolC361
Profile Joined July 2010
United States184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 23:59:42
January 12 2011 23:57 GMT
#267
Just got promoted from 2781 (0 bonus pool) diamond to 2342 master (0 bonus pool) after going 18 wins - 15 losses (~2750 -> 2781) with a 4-win streak at the end since 1.2, so I think for those who don't get in after 1 game this is around the minimum cutoff?
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 13 2011 00:05 GMT
#268
Excalibur, any idea on the domain used to calculate MMR moving averages? (eg how many games back does it look)
Chrysalis.145
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 13 2011 00:07 GMT
#269
You can't even try to calculate a cutoff if you don't take into consideration the diamond division tier, there are at least 6 tiers on NA server, so 2700 could mean 3000 or 2400, depending what rank are your diamond division.

It's like trying to tell a platinum guy how many points he needs to get into diamond. I've never seen someone telling a platinum that he need to be 2400+ in platinum to be promoted into diamond. What do they all say?? You need to beat other platinum and also some diamond, right? Well, At launch time there was no one at Master League, so it would be impossible, but right now, that's going to be the case for diamond players that want to get promotion to master. The same thing as bronze <-> silver, silver <-> gold etc.
SolC361
Profile Joined July 2010
United States184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 00:15:02
January 13 2011 00:13 GMT
#270
On January 13 2011 09:07 SDream wrote:
You can't even try to calculate a cutoff if you don't take into consideration the diamond division tier, there are at least 6 tiers on NA server, so 2700 could mean 3000 or 2400, depending what rank are your diamond division.

It's like trying to tell a platinum guy how many points he needs to get into diamond. I've never seen someone telling a platinum that he need to be 2400+ in platinum to be promoted into diamond. What do they all say?? You need to beat other platinum and also some diamond, right? Well, At launch time there was no one at Master League, so it would be impossible, but right now, that's going to be the case for diamond players that want to get promotion to master. The same thing as bronze <-> silver, silver <-> gold etc.

Forgot about that, my bad. My division had a +350 modifier (E class). Also, of the 33 games I played, about 10 were against Master leaguers and my stat against them was 3 - 7 or so, < 50% for sure.
SolC361
Profile Joined July 2010
United States184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 00:15:45
January 13 2011 00:15 GMT
#271
Double post, sorry.
hpTheGreat
Profile Joined August 2010
United States173 Posts
January 13 2011 00:27 GMT
#272
It seems like everyone i play against in master league is favored. I lose 2-5 points and gain 15-20 . This is very common throughout my buddy list or anyone's record i check in master league. Did you guys figure this out?

We all started around 2300-2400 yesterday. some people are already at 3k+ ...
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 13 2011 00:34 GMT
#273
On January 13 2011 09:27 hpTheGreat wrote:
It seems like everyone i play against in master league is favored. I lose 2-5 points and gain 15-20 . This is very common throughout my buddy list or anyone's record i check in master league. Did you guys figure this out?

We all started around 2300-2400 yesterday. some people are already at 3k+ ...


People that were promoted into master league has had their points reset to 73 + spent bonus pool.

That's why some players lost up to 800 points, others only lost 130 etc.

This reset means everyone has LESS points than they should have, so yes, everyone will be favored till your points match your MMR once again.
SpiDaH
Profile Joined March 2010
France198 Posts
January 13 2011 00:50 GMT
#274
Ok so I'm at 1k3 with 1k2 bonus pool. I play on EU against mostly Masters / diamond 2k6 to 2k9 players. I've played like 12 games today with like 50% ratio I think. Any chance ill get to masters any time soon if I keep going like that or am I just going to have a tough run up to 2k8 diamond myself and then be stuck because masters will be filled ?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 13 2011 00:57 GMT
#275
lol, that's platinum <-> diamond "why am I not getting promoted?" all over again ^^
SpiDaH
Profile Joined March 2010
France198 Posts
January 13 2011 00:59 GMT
#276
On January 13 2011 09:57 SDream wrote:
lol, that's platinum <-> diamond "why am I not getting promoted?" all over again ^^


Yeah I just realized that, sorry my post does sound kinda retarded in that regard
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10324 Posts
January 13 2011 01:02 GMT
#277
This is strange since people promote after losing all the time. Maybe it's related to their definition of "active" -- it could be that you have to win at least 1 game in the past ~7 or whatever days. And also I guess everyone was reset to inactive status when a new patch came out. So now you have to reactivate by winning a game, and then it sees you are high enough for Master's and puts you there.


More likely they didn't mean win literally, they probably just meant that you have to win games (play games) in general in order to be promoted. Which is obvious. Also they're obviously wrong/inaccurate because they said "like all" other promotions, which is false because you can be promoted with a loss as your most recent match.

Ok so I'm at 1k3 with 1k2 bonus pool. I play on EU against mostly Masters / diamond 2k6 to 2k9 players. I've played like 12 games today with like 50% ratio I think. Any chance ill get to masters any time soon if I keep going like that or am I just going to have a tough run up to 2k8 diamond myself and then be stuck because masters will be filled ?


It's just like any league... once you get good enough someone will be demoted and you will take his place. I'd say you definitely belong in Masters, the system can be slow to promote sometimes.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
hpTheGreat
Profile Joined August 2010
United States173 Posts
January 13 2011 01:06 GMT
#278
On January 13 2011 09:34 SDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 09:27 hpTheGreat wrote:
It seems like everyone i play against in master league is favored. I lose 2-5 points and gain 15-20 . This is very common throughout my buddy list or anyone's record i check in master league. Did you guys figure this out?

We all started around 2300-2400 yesterday. some people are already at 3k+ ...


People that were promoted into master league has had their points reset to 73 + spent bonus pool.

That's why some players lost up to 800 points, others only lost 130 etc.

This reset means everyone has LESS points than they should have, so yes, everyone will be favored till your points match your MMR once again.


Thanks for the reply. Makes sense.
sNatch
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
January 13 2011 01:16 GMT
#279
Ugh, I knew i should have used up my bonus pool before 1.2. Oh well.

Maybe I missed it in this thread, but does anyone know why there are some people with records like 18-10 in the Master League? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/366499/1/GiR/
shammythefox
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom286 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 01:25:10
January 13 2011 01:19 GMT
#280
I don't know how naive this question is but does anyone have a scope of just what MMR you're looking at to get in? I'm guessing you can tell your MMR pretty accurately from what the highest point players you consistently face are (playing lower than that is irrelevant, as theyre likely in a similair situation whereby their MMR exceeds their points)
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
January 13 2011 01:20 GMT
#281
On January 13 2011 07:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:47 g.o- wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:32 Zacsafus wrote:
I keep playing master league players and beating them but still no promotion :S beaten like 4 now but i have lost to other diamonds in between, generally protoss -.- but anyways its beginning to really annoy me now lol.

Im 2700 or there abouts but ive only got like 40 more wins than losses, any1 else know what their win % was when they were promoted and what kind of oppoenents they were facing D:


From what I understand, win % and league points have NOTHING to do with your promotion. As stated here several times, your MMR is what triggers your promotion. You may have 2700 points but that doesn't mean your MMR is high enough for promotion, yet. Even if you've been playing vs masters level players, your MMR takes time to build and is probably adjusted every X games by bnet. For example, your hidden MMR might be at 180 and the criteria for masters promotion is 200. Yes you have beaten masters level players but you've also lost to players in diamond, this probably affects the calculation of points after say, 15 games where it determines your new MMR. Some people have stated that they've played only 1 game to get promoted, this was also my case. In this scenario I think that these players are well above the 200 mark used in my previous example, thus the promotion is immediate after the first win. All I have to suggest to you is to keep playing games as that is the only way to increase your hidden MMR which decides your eligibility.

Btw, my win rate was 53% when I got promoted, doesn't mean a thing.


Moving average. It doesn't check your MMR in intervals, it checks your moving average after every game to determine your eligibility.



Anyone know the interval of the moving average?
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
January 13 2011 01:31 GMT
#282
I was 2556 Diamond, won 1 game and was instantly promoted to Masters league at 2298 points, Corsair November division. My 1 game was against a Master's league player.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 01:44 GMT
#283
On January 13 2011 10:16 sNatch wrote:
Ugh, I knew i should have used up my bonus pool before 1.2. Oh well.

Maybe I missed it in this thread, but does anyone know why there are some people with records like 18-10 in the Master League? It just doesn't make any sense to me.


I spelled it out plain as day in the OP. The next person to ask about why some people are promoted and not others is going to get warned. Consider this a forewarning.
Moderator
Kaoriyu
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada276 Posts
January 13 2011 06:45 GMT
#284
Well I finally made it into masters league by starting out at 1500 rating and playing 35 games today and yesterday. My MMR was around 2.6-2.7k diamond and as I won more games I started going up against 2k-2.2k Masters. Just pointing it out there so that people can have an idea on how many games it can take.
weltraumMonster
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany62 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 09:29:43
January 13 2011 07:26 GMT
#285
Why is there no masters league for e.g. 3v3 random ?
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
January 13 2011 08:51 GMT
#286
On January 13 2011 15:45 Kaoriyu wrote:
Well I finally made it into masters league by starting out at 1500 rating and playing 35 games today and yesterday. My MMR was around 2.6-2.7k diamond and as I won more games I started going up against 2k-2.2k Masters. Just pointing it out there so that people can have an idea on how many games it can take.


You dont know your MMR, *sigh*. Also your points mean nothing to us as long as you dont tell us your division modifier. I had 2,2k points without any bonus points. After losing 6 games, the 7th which i won promoted me. i was A-class diamond.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 10:26:02
January 13 2011 10:08 GMT
#287
I'm sorry if this has been addressed in the thread, I only read the first 2 pages, but the 2% number seems really strange. I basically stopped laddering 4 weeks ago at ~2300, so yesterday when I started to ladder again I was at 2300 with a 400 bonus pool. I lost the first 3 games horribly, but won the 4th just now and was instantly promoted to master league. I don't see how I can be within the top 2% of players, especially seeing as my MMR should have dropped since I've mostly been losing lately. Unless it's filling up the master's league with the top 2% that are playing right now? In which case I'll be demoted once everyone better than me starts laddering again?

idk, I guess I should be happy I got promoted, but I really don't feel like I deserve it right now, I'm playing horribly.

edit: now i was just slightly favoured against a 2.7k. hm, apparently my mmr's higher than i thought.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 13 2011 11:59 GMT
#288
(Obviously) Little Known Facts:
There is no masters for: 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4.
You get into masters based on your MMR and not your points (or games played).
If you lose to people that are better than you (favored), your MMR wont most likely be affected.
The average 2700-2800 points player has the required MMR to get into masters, but that doesn't mean if you have 3k points you will get into it for sure (but it's more likely) and you can't get into masters if you have only 1k points (but it's more likely).

You should find that information in Excalibur's posts anyways..
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
January 13 2011 12:12 GMT
#289
lol I'm glad there's no master's league for 4v4... that just sounds straight up retarded if anyone thinks 4v4 is serious at the top level.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Siwa
Profile Joined August 2010
91 Posts
January 13 2011 12:24 GMT
#290
I'm aiming for the upcoming Grandmaster League.

It would be SO kewl if it only has one division - Top 100 of the region and nothing else.
Boundless
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada588 Posts
January 13 2011 13:05 GMT
#291
Yeah, I think the Grandmaster league should be almost impossible to get into for us mere mortals.

I personally haven't hit Master yet, but I will. Right now I'm about 2600 diamond, but I know that my MMR is lower since I've used my entire bonus pool. Need to work out my TvP! =D
"Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." - Romans 6:14
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 13 2011 13:11 GMT
#292
Has anyone been demoted from masters? lol Im sure NA server is reaching it cap and as more players begin to play, some people should be getting demoted
onasteak
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom12 Posts
January 13 2011 15:51 GMT
#293
i was 1243 with 1265 in my bonus pool, lost 2 and won 1 and got promoted into master's with 1085 points now. if that information helps!
Knutzi
Profile Joined July 2009
Norway664 Posts
January 13 2011 16:30 GMT
#294
are they just throwing every single diamond player into masters until its capped?
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
January 13 2011 16:43 GMT
#295
2450 and Not promoted yet. I feel like I'm within 200 pts or so.
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 17:00:00
January 13 2011 16:53 GMT
#296
To excalibur:

Is there a way to find out now if my division (Scourge Rho) is highly rated? There are a few reasons why I suspect this:

1. It seems that you cannot be promoted into Scourge Rho with a poor win/loss ratio. It's still not full, even though it's not that new. I think your w/l has to be at least 65% to get into this division, or be playing very good opponents. I myself promoted into it only after going up against 2.2k+ diamonds a month ago. I could tell their MMR was high.

2. A few people have disappeared into masters, I believe. The current guy at the top is only ~2.1k post masters. Hm...

3. I just played against a 1.5k diamond, myself being 570~ (55th in my league before the game), and only received 6 points for a win. Of course, points are no indicator blah blah blah, but this time it may have some significance: He's ranked 26th out of 97, has >200 games played to my 50, and the top guy in his league is 2.6k+ without being masters.

Perhaps you can draw some conclusions from this? More input from other players?

Because, I might just try for masters based on this info...I previously considered it very unlikely for me to get in quickly therefore not worth my time and effort.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
zDUST
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland165 Posts
January 13 2011 17:07 GMT
#297
On January 13 2011 21:24 Siwa wrote:
I'm aiming for the upcoming Grandmaster League.

It would be SO kewl if it only has one division - Top 100 of the region and nothing else.


even better... ONE division, top 200, viewable to everyone!
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
January 13 2011 17:09 GMT
#298
On January 13 2011 10:31 tehemperorer wrote:
I was 2556 Diamond, won 1 game and was instantly promoted to Masters league at 2298 points, Corsair November division. My 1 game was against a Master's league player.

Exactly the same happened for me.
And the guy in Masters League really wasn't strong, considering that i wasn't playing my main race.
Funky!
TeMiL
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Peru545 Posts
January 13 2011 17:14 GMT
#299
On January 13 2011 20:59 decaf wrote:
if you have 3k points you will get into it for sure (but it's more likely) and you can't get into masters if you have only 1k points (but it's more likely).



i suppose that sc2ranks is not working yet cause in master league if you go to the last page 69, i can find master players below 1000 points. what happen on that?

User was warned for this post
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 17:24 GMT
#300
On January 14 2011 01:53 shadymmj wrote:
To excalibur:

Is there a way to find out now if my division (Scourge Rho) is highly rated? There are a few reasons why I suspect this:

1. It seems that you cannot be promoted into Scourge Rho with a poor win/loss ratio. It's still not full, even though it's not that new. I think your w/l has to be at least 65% to get into this division, or be playing very good opponents. I myself promoted into it only after going up against 2.2k+ diamonds a month ago. I could tell their MMR was high.

2. A few people have disappeared into masters, I believe. The current guy at the top is only ~2.1k post masters. Hm...

3. I just played against a 1.5k diamond, myself being 570~ (55th in my league before the game), and only received 6 points for a win. Of course, points are no indicator blah blah blah, but this time it may have some significance: He's ranked 26th out of 97, has >200 games played to my 50, and the top guy in his league is 2.6k+ without being masters.

Perhaps you can draw some conclusions from this? More input from other players?

Because, I might just try for masters based on this info...I previously considered it very unlikely for me to get in quickly therefore not worth my time and effort.


Unfortunately there's no concrete info that can be gathered from that. Without the Top 200 or a significant amount of promotion data, we can't determine division tiers.

If you want to know whether you stand a chance of being promoted into Master league, though, I'd say there are probably enough players in Master such that you'll have to start playing against people who have already been promoted before you yourself can get promoted.
Moderator
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
January 13 2011 17:27 GMT
#301
Right now the statistics on sc2ranks seems to suggest that master's league is top 5% of diamond, not top 10%. It's at the top .4% overall.

Has it been confirmed what the cutoff % of diamond is? I'm just curious.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 17:54 GMT
#302
On January 14 2011 02:27 BlasiuS wrote:
Right now the statistics on sc2ranks seems to suggest that master's league is top 5% of diamond, not top 10%. It's at the top .4% overall.

Has it been confirmed what the cutoff % of diamond is? I'm just curious.


The answer varies depending on your search criteria =)

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/us/1/all/7 (7 day activity filter)

2.2% (2,711)

No activity filter:

0.4% (2,504)
Moderator
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 19:20:12
January 13 2011 19:16 GMT
#303
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

It's also funny to see SeleCT below me in points (I know points don't mean much ... just saying ). There are also 4-5 top 200 players in my division, so I'm curious what happens to my division once the Grand Masters league starts.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
January 13 2011 19:20 GMT
#304
On January 14 2011 04:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

that might be because everyone who gets promoted to master league starts out at the same rating?
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
January 13 2011 19:22 GMT
#305
On January 14 2011 04:20 Sfydjklm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 04:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

that might be because everyone who gets promoted to master league starts out at the same rating?


Is this the current theory? I was under the impression that the MMR didn't change, only the displayed points (which got equalized across the board). But I'm finding that I'm playing players who I feel are clearly not as good as my previous competition.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 19:26 GMT
#306
On January 14 2011 04:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

It's also funny to see SeleCT below me in points (I know points don't mean much ... just saying ). There are also 4-5 top 200 players in my division, so I'm curious what happens to my division once the Grand Masters league starts.


What leagues were those players in? MMR supposedly remained the same. I mean, it could definitely be what we were hearing before, which is that a lot of players are either still getting adjusted to patch changes or playing more recklessly with cheese builds trying to get points quickly, or there could be some change to matchmaking.
Moderator
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
January 13 2011 19:30 GMT
#307
Same for me, playing awful noobs since I'm in master, there HAS to be something with MMR, and it would be logic as points where reset ! If not, it would be unfair to good players.
The legend of Darien lives on
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 19:37:35
January 13 2011 19:35 GMT
#308
9 were already masters, 1 was a diamond. The diamond zerg and I chatted as he was losing, and he said he was being matched up with masters but kept losing (loss to me was his fourth in a row), so he thinks the system was trying to promote him. I haven't checked back to see if he eventually got into masters.

I wonder if the matchmaking is being manipulated by the system to facilitate the convergence of the displayed points to the MMR.
KillerDucky
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States498 Posts
January 13 2011 19:37 GMT
#309
Regarding the points acceleration until your points get near your MMR (i.e. both players favored), you can see some players are close and their points acceleration is slowing down. For example:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2178533/1/PiQLiQ/matches#filter=solo

PiQLiQ is ~3300 points now and is starting to lose ~10 points per loss. Probably he close but still not quite to his MMR. When he gets there those 10 points per loss will be more like 15+ points per loss, but it will take longer to get there now that he's close.

If you are a lower-level Master's player you should see this start to happen at somewhere lower than ~3000.


MarineKingPrime Forever!
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
January 13 2011 19:38 GMT
#310
On January 14 2011 04:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 04:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

It's also funny to see SeleCT below me in points (I know points don't mean much ... just saying ). There are also 4-5 top 200 players in my division, so I'm curious what happens to my division once the Grand Masters league starts.


What leagues were those players in? MMR supposedly remained the same. I mean, it could definitely be what we were hearing before, which is that a lot of players are either still getting adjusted to patch changes or playing more recklessly with cheese builds trying to get points quickly, or there could be some change to matchmaking.

a lot of players seemed to come back from a break for this patch tbh. I've played a lot of players who's name i recognized and considered good and who played very poorly.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
cHaNg-sTa
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1058 Posts
January 13 2011 19:40 GMT
#311
On January 14 2011 04:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I'm finding the matchmaking for masters is a bit "off" right now. I'm not trying to boast, but I've played 10 matches since being promoted and have gone 9-1 (the one loss was due to stupid error on my part), and each of these matches haven't been competitive or close ... even the ones that my opponents were favored. Prior to the patch, my matches were a lot more competitive. I'm not sure what the system is doing.

It's also funny to see SeleCT below me in points (I know points don't mean much ... just saying ). There are also 4-5 top 200 players in my division, so I'm curious what happens to my division once the Grand Masters league starts.


I feel the same way. Opponents started out pretty lackluster in comparison to the players I've been playing before the promotion. It's starting to slowly even out but it's still kinda strange.
Jaedong <3 HOOK'EM HORNS!
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 20:14:33
January 13 2011 20:13 GMT
#312
My gut feeling is the system is fudging points-awarding to converge the MMR with the displayed points so it settles closer to what we had prior to the new league. I think I'll get "easy" matchups - a good number of which the system considers my opponents favored - until I reach a displayed point total closer to where I was (at least relative to other players).

I'm not a fan of what they did here. I prefer competitive 50/50 matches over lopsided win streaks. I'm sure my opponents aren't happy about it either
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 20:14 GMT
#313
On January 14 2011 05:13 whoopadeedoo wrote:
My gut feeling is the system is fudging matchup point awarding to converge the MMR with the displayed points so it settles closer to what we had prior to the new league. I think I'll get "easy" matchups - a good number of which the system considers my opponents favored - until I reach a displayed point total closer to where I was (at least relative to other players).

I'm not a fan of what they did here. I prefer competitive 50/50 matches over lopsided win streaks. I'm sure my opponents are happy about it either


In any event, things will straighten themselves out over time. Once that convergence happens we should be seeing more accurate skill rankings.
Moderator
thOr6136
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Slovenia1775 Posts
January 13 2011 20:29 GMT
#314
Hm guys, i went for like 550 points up in 3 days still no promotion, i cant believe my mmr is/was so low. Now i am playing players from masters league... hope to get promoted soon
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 13 2011 21:12 GMT
#315
Alright,
it seems like everyone is favored aginst each other. It says favored, you win and get 20 points, the opponent loses like 5, it's weird. The matchmaking system is really being fucked up now and you can't tell who's good and who's not, since the points dont give away any information right now.

I lost like 12 games and won 5 games against dudes who all have been favored or slightly favored thus far. I'm gonna keep on despite doing really, really badly right now (bye bye 58% win percentage). The matchmaking is working randomly right now and I'm one of the lower masters leage players so I gotta fight better ones all the time (who are favored against me too ofc). I think those who can play the game well should be owning on the ladder right now.
Avenok
Profile Joined February 2010
United States34 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-13 21:21:54
January 13 2011 21:12 GMT
#316
I did some searching on sc2ranks for 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 Master's League and there are no divisions currently. Does anyone know if Master's League is 1v1 bracket exclusive?

I don't think Blizzard said anything about this in any of their posts/comments. If someone can confirm this, it might be a good idea to add that Master's League is unobtainable in any bracket but 1v1 to the OP.

Here is Blizzard's Master's League blog post: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471#blog
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
January 13 2011 21:18 GMT
#317
On January 14 2011 06:12 Avenok wrote:
I did some searching on sc2ranks for 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 Master's League and there are no divisions currently. Does anyone know if Master's League is 1v1 bracket exclusive?

I don't think Blizzard said anything about this in any of their posts/comments. If someone can confirm this, it might be a good idea to add that Master's League is unobtainable in any bracket but 1v1 to the OP.


So far is seems to only be for 1v1. No one has anything in 2v2 or above yet. I doubt they will either.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Boundless
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada588 Posts
January 13 2011 21:20 GMT
#318
Master league is for 1v1 only. I don't see how they could possibly do it for team games and not be laughed at.
"Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." - Romans 6:14
OsC
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada542 Posts
January 13 2011 22:01 GMT
#319
how does the conversion of pts work?

i was over 3.2k in diamond, now that im in masters i started off at 2205 in masters

User was warned for this post
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 13 2011 22:08 GMT
#320
On January 14 2011 06:20 Boundless wrote:
Master league is for 1v1 only. I don't see how they could possibly do it for team games and not be laughed at.


I don't see why not. I think there could certainly be a top 2% of competitive 2v2 play, at the very least. I can understand why there wouldn't be a Top 200 for team brackets, but there should be a Master league.
Moderator
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
January 13 2011 22:11 GMT
#321
MMR has remained about the same for me, it seemed a little off right after I was promoted but it seemed to stabilize rather well and quickly. far as i can tell it all seems to be working well.. just have to wait for the higher skill players to rise above.
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
January 13 2011 22:17 GMT
#322
On January 13 2011 08:31 Nyxs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 06:34 danl9rm wrote:
Blizzard just doesn't get it, I guess.

The difference between the top 2% of players in a region and the top 200 is Huge! The difference is larger than the entire other 98%.

And anyone that has ever played competitively and been in the top 20/200 in the world in their respective game will know this. It's not even debatable.


The skill curve goes up so fast once you reach the top players it would always end up this way unless you use a different system. There will always be Grand Master League for the top 200 and having a Master League beneath that which currently has 2.5k players on NA doesn't sound too bad if you take in consideration how large the player pool is for NA.


Ya, I guess you're right.

To me, it just made more sense to have something less than 2.5k but obviously more than 200. Like, top 1000 for master league. That way, there was some semblance of a gradual ladder, instead it seems that you have top 200 for grandmaster, and then the next 2.3k which comprises a ton of different levels of skill, much more than bronze to silver to gold and platinum, even. That's all I was saying. It's a bit misleading.

But, you're right, it's really an inescapable scenario.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
Pharaun
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany150 Posts
January 13 2011 22:27 GMT
#323
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...
It has to start somewhere. - It has to start sometime. - What better place than here. - What better time than now?!!!! -All hell can't stop us now
Heckran
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia11 Posts
January 13 2011 23:05 GMT
#324
Is Master League only for 1v1? Or is it also for 2v2, etc.
RukKus
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
January 13 2011 23:27 GMT
#325
Just my opinion,

I feel the Masters League is going to be a bit chaotic for the next few days, perhaps even weeks, as the system re-organizes MMR and places people at the level they should be. I also feel Blizzard implemented Master's League before the Ladder Reset in order to work out any kinks/discrepancies, such as any errors that might occur in point rewards. They did this now so that when the ladder resets and people are placed in leagues it would be more accurate and there would be no major errors.

Wise move in my opinion, but as expected BNet is having a hard time placing people against equal match. Watching lots of pro streams where they are in the top of Master's League, BNet pairs them against "Favored" opponents which they steamroll and still manage to get 23 points from. Then again that might be because they are boosting their points to appropriately reflect their MMR.

Don't Panic.
Micro... Kill Kill! Macro ... Build Build! ... Micro ... Kill Kill! Macro ... Build Build... Stim...RAAAAAGE!
Shadowed
Profile Joined August 2010
United States679 Posts
January 13 2011 23:33 GMT
#326
On January 14 2011 07:27 Pharaun wrote:
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...


MMR is not being reset, people who were in Masters league will (likely) be placed back into it quite quickly.
GreatFall
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1061 Posts
January 14 2011 00:17 GMT
#327
Nice writeup as usual Excalibur_z. Thanks for the info.
Inventor of the 'Burning Tide' technique to quickly getting Outmatched Crusher achivement :D
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 05:43:41
January 14 2011 05:41 GMT
#328
Would it be a good idea to merge this topic with the division analysis so that we can see who can potentially get into masters? Anyway, more funny news...600 pt diamond (me) goes up against rank 1 diamond toss with 2.6k pts, this guy obviously no noob with about 500 games played.

+11 pts for a win - even match.

Maybe masters is in sight? But can you be demoted from masters without playing? Some ROOT folks are still diamond...

http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/us/diamond/1/all/pointratio

Hazard a guess that Huk would be masters if he so much as played a game. So will new Master divisions be created to accomodate these players?

edit: looks like it. a new guy is at the bottom with a sub 50% win ratio: 28-29.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
MOOG
Profile Joined October 2010
United States188 Posts
January 14 2011 05:58 GMT
#329
For what its worth, Huk is in master league in korea. i saw on his stream that hes masters rank 1.
To Do: 1. finish the rest of my practice league matches 2. win GSL
clayn
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany444 Posts
January 14 2011 06:05 GMT
#330
as far is i know strelok is still in diamond, lulz
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
January 14 2011 07:35 GMT
#331
On January 14 2011 14:41 shadymmj wrote:
Would it be a good idea to merge this topic with the division analysis so that we can see who can potentially get into masters? Anyway, more funny news...600 pt diamond (me) goes up against rank 1 diamond toss with 2.6k pts, this guy obviously no noob with about 500 games played.

+11 pts for a win - even match.

Maybe masters is in sight? But can you be demoted from masters without playing? Some ROOT folks are still diamond...

http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/us/diamond/1/all/pointratio

Hazard a guess that Huk would be masters if he so much as played a game. So will new Master divisions be created to accomodate these players?

edit: looks like it. a new guy is at the bottom with a sub 50% win ratio: 28-29.



Don't fool yourself, those players haven't won a 1v1 since patch came out, and thus unpromoteable
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
January 14 2011 07:44 GMT
#332
Obviously, but once they start playing they'll win and get promoted. At this stage I doubt they even care, because frankly the name "Huk" is 10x better than a Master league badge.

Ah, anyway, I've resigned myself to staying in diamond after hitting 56 games and going 7-5 against the 2.5k range. Many people are spamming games now to get into masters, so the required MMR is going to increase. I think it's more or less shooting yourself in the foot if you're not on the verge of being promoted when you go 50-50 and spam games. Worse when those eligible, but still diamond players just decide to win one game. Can you beat them out before they occupy your slot and raise the MMR ceiling?
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
January 14 2011 07:52 GMT
#333
On January 12 2011 09:32 GenesisX wrote:
Quick question:
I won't be able to play SC2 until maybe next weekend, but I am already pretty high on the ladder. I did the math, and I was within the cutoff for masters league. If too many people get in, will I miss my chance?
(Link to my SC2Ranks Profile if you need)


how do u figure out where the cutoff for masters is?
Pharaun
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany150 Posts
January 14 2011 09:51 GMT
#334
On January 14 2011 08:33 Shadowed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 07:27 Pharaun wrote:
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...


MMR is not being reset, people who were in Masters league will (likely) be placed back into it quite quickly.



u mad?

before: 10 000 Diamonds ->10% ->1000 masters
after: 5000 diamonds (cause many inactive) -> 500 masters
It has to start somewhere. - It has to start sometime. - What better place than here. - What better time than now?!!!! -All hell can't stop us now
cchuntem
Profile Joined December 2010
51 Posts
January 14 2011 10:00 GMT
#335
On January 14 2011 15:05 clayn wrote:
as far is i know strelok is still in diamond, lulz


All his recent matches are Custom. He has >3400 points and 65% wrl - of course he belongs to Masters.
cchuntem
Profile Joined December 2010
51 Posts
January 14 2011 10:04 GMT
#336
On January 14 2011 18:51 Pharaun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 08:33 Shadowed wrote:
On January 14 2011 07:27 Pharaun wrote:
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...


MMR is not being reset, people who were in Masters league will (likely) be placed back into it quite quickly.



u mad?

before: 10 000 Diamonds ->10% ->1000 masters
after: 5000 diamonds (cause many inactive) -> 500 masters


I think most of inactive players most likely will play just enough games to get back to the Diamond.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 10:12:38
January 14 2011 10:10 GMT
#337
On January 14 2011 07:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 06:20 Boundless wrote:
Master league is for 1v1 only. I don't see how they could possibly do it for team games and not be laughed at.


I don't see why not. I think there could certainly be a top 2% of competitive 2v2 play, at the very least. I can understand why there wouldn't be a Top 200 for team brackets, but there should be a Master league.


Think so too - not that would it make me super-proud being 2v2 master, but I mean, technically master is "just" another league, not like grandmaster where only "the" top200 would get into.
Just because the name is "master" doesn't mean there shouldn't be a league for the top 2% of 2v2 players. I don't understand why Blizz wouldn't do this, I mean, it can't be "that" much work to adapt the algorythm?
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
cchuntem
Profile Joined December 2010
51 Posts
January 14 2011 10:21 GMT
#338
On January 14 2011 19:10 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 07:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 14 2011 06:20 Boundless wrote:
Master league is for 1v1 only. I don't see how they could possibly do it for team games and not be laughed at.


I don't see why not. I think there could certainly be a top 2% of competitive 2v2 play, at the very least. I can understand why there wouldn't be a Top 200 for team brackets, but there should be a Master league.


Think so too - not that would it make me super-proud being 2v2 master, but I mean, technically master is "just" another league, not like grandmaster where only "the" top200 would get into.
Just because the name is "master" doesn't mean there shouldn't be a league for the top 2% of 2v2 players. I don't understand why Blizz wouldn't do this, I mean, it can't be "that" much work to adapt the algorythm?


Probably, technically there are no any problems to make it, but well, it doesn't make much sense, I think:

1. There is much more of a random element in team games.
2. Team games are not balanced as good as 1v1 (and never will probably).
3. Serious competition is going only in 1v1 games.

But meh, I wouldn't hate it either if Blizz have implemented Masters for team games.
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
January 14 2011 10:25 GMT
#339
On January 14 2011 19:04 cchuntem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 18:51 Pharaun wrote:
On January 14 2011 08:33 Shadowed wrote:
On January 14 2011 07:27 Pharaun wrote:
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...


MMR is not being reset, people who were in Masters league will (likely) be placed back into it quite quickly.



u mad?

before: 10 000 Diamonds ->10% ->1000 masters
after: 5000 diamonds (cause many inactive) -> 500 masters


I think most of inactive players most likely will play just enough games to get back to the Diamond.


There are actually so many inactive players who played 1 game just to get their Masters icon and went back to inactivity. So yea, i agree. Reset most likely will have minimal effect.
Zog
Profile Joined September 2010
57 Posts
January 14 2011 10:36 GMT
#340
On January 14 2011 18:51 Pharaun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 08:33 Shadowed wrote:
On January 14 2011 07:27 Pharaun wrote:
when the ladder is reset, there should be a lot less ppl in the master league...


MMR is not being reset, people who were in Masters league will (likely) be placed back into it quite quickly.



u mad?

before: 10 000 Diamonds ->10% ->1000 masters
after: 5000 diamonds (cause many inactive) -> 500 masters


If you looked at Excalibur's posts, you would have seen that promotion is only calculated relatively to active players. So a reset won't change anything in the long run.

I'm amazed at the number of people who make so many mistakes on ladder mechanics.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 14 2011 10:41 GMT
#341
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?

User was warned for this post
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
cchuntem
Profile Joined December 2010
51 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 11:01:36
January 14 2011 11:01 GMT
#342
On January 14 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?


Just read Excalibur_Z posts with ladder analysis. About uncertainty factor and moving average and everything else. Maybe your uncertainty factor is too high for now and maybe you've lost some games to high Diamond recently and your moving average not in the boundaries of Masters and maybe something else.
Mikau
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands1446 Posts
January 14 2011 11:09 GMT
#343
On January 14 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?

The system in itself is fine, it's just that ladder points are so deceptive and it's hard to guess your MMR from it.
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 14 2011 11:17 GMT
#344
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr

sNatch
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
January 14 2011 11:43 GMT
#345
PapaSmurf is in my league!
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/366499/1/GiR/
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
January 14 2011 11:46 GMT
#346
W. T. F. the last one has 15,000 league games played. Holy MFing pants!

If he played 10 games an hour (that's really pushing it) he would have to play for 10 hours a day.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Mr Tambourine Man
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands190 Posts
January 14 2011 11:47 GMT
#347
On January 14 2011 20:17 Alphasquad wrote:
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr



These seem like pretty easy examples.
PapaSmurf: well.. I'm guessing it is a smurf account. His win/loss rate is great. Jusdt kept on being matched against stronger opponents till he started losing some against probably master level players.

BattelKruizr: He has obviously been massing games in the uglyugly type of way to get the achievements/pictures/decals but has after that been playing normal and I'm guessing that his win/loss rate from the last 100 games or so is probably pretty good.

What is there not to understand?
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
January 14 2011 12:35 GMT
#348
On January 14 2011 20:47 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 20:17 Alphasquad wrote:
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr



These seem like pretty easy examples.
PapaSmurf: well.. I'm guessing it is a smurf account. His win/loss rate is great. Jusdt kept on being matched against stronger opponents till he started losing some against probably master level players.

BattelKruizr: He has obviously been massing games in the uglyugly type of way to get the achievements/pictures/decals but has after that been playing normal and I'm guessing that his win/loss rate from the last 100 games or so is probably pretty good.

What is there not to understand?


To be honest, I needed a min to figure out how BattelKruizr could be master myself. If you look at his "points"-progress in SC2-ranks you see it spiking up, which means either he had indeed been throwing games before to make it easier to get icons with mass-gaming, or he simply has gotten considerably better in the last time...maybe getting reps analyzed or dunno. According to SC2-ranks his points were 2763 before promotion, so even though points don't matter, this definitely is above the observed "lower points threshold" of people who got promoted and used up all of their bonus pool.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
SpoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1542 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 12:59:24
January 14 2011 12:54 GMT
#349
Last ladder game before the other day was like a month ago, had about 1973 rating in diamond with like 600 bonus or something.

Played 1 ladder game and got promoted to Master and my rating went to like 1550 and like 783 bonus now. I started in rank 15 and moved down to like 70 (cause I never played more than the 1 game).

+ Show Spoiler +
I beat a protoss as zerg on jungle basin, pretty sure blizzard insta promoted me for that LOLOLOL
A man is what he thinks about all day long.
err
Profile Joined July 2010
54 Posts
January 14 2011 13:03 GMT
#350
Didn't a harvester rusher get into the NA top 200? I think the system is pretty messed up, at least show MMR, leagues/points are so deceptive.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 13:18:39
January 14 2011 13:12 GMT
#351
On January 14 2011 20:09 Mikau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?

The system in itself is fine, it's just that ladder points are so deceptive and it's hard to guess your MMR from it.

Well, i only play 2500+ diamond player. Played 3 1v1 since the new patch, against 1 2700 diamond and 2 master league and won all three.

Im sorry, the system is bad, why not using a system like warcraft 3, with level... Way less complex, and everybody is satisfied cauz when you got one lvl, you're so happy you can show it to the world and masturbate like hell.

Everything seems way too much theoric in this ladder system, like bad and useless science. The only way to get point is... to play. Loosing doesn't even matter anymore. In my opinion, it even spoil all the stress there is in laddering.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
CrayonKing
Profile Joined August 2010
Cambodia124 Posts
January 14 2011 13:20 GMT
#352
Has anyone been demoted yet? Or heard of anyone who has
Mikau
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands1446 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 13:27:32
January 14 2011 13:25 GMT
#353
On January 14 2011 22:12 WhiteDog wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 14 2011 20:09 Mikau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?

The system in itself is fine, it's just that ladder points are so deceptive and it's hard to guess your MMR from it.

Well, i only play 2500+ diamond player. Played 3 1v1 since the new patch, against 1 2700 diamond and 2 master league and won all three.

Im sorry, the system is bad, why not using a system like warcraft 3, with level... Way less complex, and everybody is satisfied cauz when you got one lvl, you're so happy you can show it to the world and masturbate like hell.

Everything seems way too much theoric in this ladder system, like bad and useless science. The only way to get point is... to play. Loosing doesn't even matter anymore. In my opinion, it even spoil all the stress there is in laddering.



You just supported my point. Mass gaming doesn't help your MMR one bit if you don't actually improve. Yes you'll get more points, but your MMR will stay roughly the same. As I said, the system itself isn't bad, it's just that we get conflicting and incomplete information. We can only judge our own point values and they're meaningless. We can't really know what our MMR and uncertainty factor are like (we can make educated guesses though) and that's what all the top200/ladder promotions are based on.

In short, if you only care about your point total then yes mass laddering is the way to go. Yóú might care about your points though, to the 'pro' scene it's irrelevant and MMR is what matters, something you can't just increase by massing games.
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 14 2011 14:05 GMT
#354
On January 14 2011 20:47 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 20:17 Alphasquad wrote:
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr



These seem like pretty easy examples.
PapaSmurf: well.. I'm guessing it is a smurf account. His win/loss rate is great. Jusdt kept on being matched against stronger opponents till he started losing some against probably master level players.

BattelKruizr: He has obviously been massing games in the uglyugly type of way to get the achievements/pictures/decals but has after that been playing normal and I'm guessing that his win/loss rate from the last 100 games or so is probably pretty good.

What is there not to understand?


ofc its a smurf acc but it just shows that all you would need is a new account and i honestly dont think this win/loss rate is so great and what im more worrying about is that a lot of people got new accounts to make it master and im quite sure that not everybody of those will belong there and then they might stop playing to prevent being demoted

so in my logic this means if only 2 % of players can be in master league the inactive players are blocking these spots and others cannot be promoted (correct me if im wrong)

in the other case the mass gaming or lets better say the mass loosing must have led to a horrible mmr if you ask me and i dont see how it could rise so huge with such a bad win/loss ratio in combination with such a huge amount of games played
Warlock-X
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada37 Posts
January 14 2011 14:28 GMT
#355
On January 14 2011 23:05 Alphasquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 20:47 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:
On January 14 2011 20:17 Alphasquad wrote:
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr



These seem like pretty easy examples.
PapaSmurf: well.. I'm guessing it is a smurf account. His win/loss rate is great. Jusdt kept on being matched against stronger opponents till he started losing some against probably master level players.

BattelKruizr: He has obviously been massing games in the uglyugly type of way to get the achievements/pictures/decals but has after that been playing normal and I'm guessing that his win/loss rate from the last 100 games or so is probably pretty good.

What is there not to understand?


ofc its a smurf acc but it just shows that all you would need is a new account and i honestly dont think this win/loss rate is so great and what im more worrying about is that a lot of people got new accounts to make it master and im quite sure that not everybody of those will belong there and then they might stop playing to prevent being demoted

so in my logic this means if only 2 % of players can be in master league the inactive players are blocking these spots and others cannot be promoted (correct me if im wrong)

in the other case the mass gaming or lets better say the mass loosing must have led to a horrible mmr if you ask me and i dont see how it could rise so huge with such a bad win/loss ratio in combination with such a huge amount of games played



What does win/loss or number of games have to do with anything?
Say I make a new account and play only the top10 NA players and go 25-25 do I not deserve to be in masters league? It's not how much you win, it's who you win against that matters.

Why would a person who goes 100-10 vs platinum players be better then someone who goes 25-25 vs Top 10.
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 14 2011 14:54 GMT
#356
On January 14 2011 23:28 Warlock-X wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 23:05 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 14 2011 20:47 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:
On January 14 2011 20:17 Alphasquad wrote:
lately i have been checking the members of the master league and i seriously cant understand how mmr works anymore - 2 examples where i cannot understand why the mmr would be high enough (sorry if you are one of these two) for master

http://sc2ranks.com/us/2529484/PapaSmurf
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1788532/BattelKruizr



These seem like pretty easy examples.
PapaSmurf: well.. I'm guessing it is a smurf account. His win/loss rate is great. Jusdt kept on being matched against stronger opponents till he started losing some against probably master level players.

BattelKruizr: He has obviously been massing games in the uglyugly type of way to get the achievements/pictures/decals but has after that been playing normal and I'm guessing that his win/loss rate from the last 100 games or so is probably pretty good.

What is there not to understand?


ofc its a smurf acc but it just shows that all you would need is a new account and i honestly dont think this win/loss rate is so great and what im more worrying about is that a lot of people got new accounts to make it master and im quite sure that not everybody of those will belong there and then they might stop playing to prevent being demoted

so in my logic this means if only 2 % of players can be in master league the inactive players are blocking these spots and others cannot be promoted (correct me if im wrong)

in the other case the mass gaming or lets better say the mass loosing must have led to a horrible mmr if you ask me and i dont see how it could rise so huge with such a bad win/loss ratio in combination with such a huge amount of games played



What does win/loss or number of games have to do with anything?
Say I make a new account and play only the top10 NA players and go 25-25 do I not deserve to be in masters league? It's not how much you win, it's who you win against that matters.

Why would a person who goes 100-10 vs platinum players be better then someone who goes 25-25 vs Top 10.


i highly doubt that with a win percentage below 50% your mmr will be high enough to face the top10 NA players - you are talking about a scenario where you are already there

as far as i understood the system you will face stronger players if your win/loss ratio becomes too good in the current range as well as the quality of your opponents will decrease if you are continually loosing in current range and with more games played the more stable becomes the mmr and therefore doesnt change quickly



Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 15:35:21
January 14 2011 15:34 GMT
#357
Do you need to win to be promoted? I've ready most of this thread and didn't see this anywhere.

I played one game just to see if I get promoted, I lost, and didn't get promoted. I'm 72-49 (59.5%) with like 1350 points and like 1300 in bonus pool (I know it's based on MMR, but I have to figure MMR has some correlation with points bonus pool, win %, etc. so I threw them in there). I usually play 2500-2650 kids on the ladder but obviously I don't know their MMR. I don't know my division modifier, but I'm pretty sure it's god awful. We had like 1 guy who was 3000, and 1350 was enough to put me at like 30 ish. Do I have a prayer of getting in to masters if I win?

I don't know how they figure the "moving average" thing but I've won 17 of my last 20 (lost 2 of my last 4). Maybe that will help? Guess we'll see after work
Apologize.
stiknork
Profile Joined August 2007
United States128 Posts
January 14 2011 16:03 GMT
#358
Are they going to reset ladder? Points are a total joke now since the bug and will be until it's reset or rolled back.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 14 2011 16:08 GMT
#359
On January 15 2011 01:03 stiknork wrote:
Are they going to reset ladder? Points are a total joke now since the bug and will be until it's reset or rolled back.


What bug is that exactly?
Moderator
stiknork
Profile Joined August 2007
United States128 Posts
January 14 2011 16:12 GMT
#360
On January 15 2011 01:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:

What bug is that exactly?



From your OP:

Rankings are not awarding properly for Master League
We are looking into an issue with rankings and point awards in Master League and should have a resolution as soon as possible. We are again sorry for any inconvenience this has caused


I assume this is referring to the bug that has everyone favored against everyone? Because that's what I'm talking about. Not sure if it's still the case, but many players have at least gained an easy +700-900 points from it.
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
January 14 2011 16:14 GMT
#361
http://www.sc2ranks.com/kr/1164779/IMLosirA

losira never loses more than 5 points for a loss. Sometimes he loses 2. Who is he playing, Flash?
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 14 2011 16:18 GMT
#362
On January 15 2011 01:12 stiknork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:

What bug is that exactly?



From your OP:

Show nested quote +
Rankings are not awarding properly for Master League
We are looking into an issue with rankings and point awards in Master League and should have a resolution as soon as possible. We are again sorry for any inconvenience this has caused


I assume this is referring to the bug that has everyone favored against everyone? Because that's what I'm talking about. Not sure if it's still the case, but many players have at least gained an easy +700-900 points from it.


That was fixed within hours, and the bug was that Master league players were unable to spend their bonus pool after promotion.

It's not a bug that everyone in Master shows the other person as Favored. That will keep happening until those players have points that approach their MMR, and the time at which it will end will differ for everyone.
Moderator
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 16:20:57
January 14 2011 16:18 GMT
#363
On January 14 2011 22:25 Mikau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 22:12 WhiteDog wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 14 2011 20:09 Mikau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the system is a bit shitty.
I am at 2300 diamond with like 160-120 stats and I see 2100 or 2200 diamond with 260-240 going directly into master league.
How does that make sense?

The system in itself is fine, it's just that ladder points are so deceptive and it's hard to guess your MMR from it.

Well, i only play 2500+ diamond player. Played 3 1v1 since the new patch, against 1 2700 diamond and 2 master league and won all three.

Im sorry, the system is bad, why not using a system like warcraft 3, with level... Way less complex, and everybody is satisfied cauz when you got one lvl, you're so happy you can show it to the world and masturbate like hell.

Everything seems way too much theoric in this ladder system, like bad and useless science. The only way to get point is... to play. Loosing doesn't even matter anymore. In my opinion, it even spoil all the stress there is in laddering.



You just supported my point. Mass gaming doesn't help your MMR one bit if you don't actually improve. Yes you'll get more points, but your MMR will stay roughly the same. As I said, the system itself isn't bad, it's just that we get conflicting and incomplete information. We can only judge our own point values and they're meaningless. We can't really know what our MMR and uncertainty factor are like (we can make educated guesses though) and that's what all the top200/ladder promotions are based on.

In short, if you only care about your point total then yes mass laddering is the way to go. Yóú might care about your points though, to the 'pro' scene it's irrelevant and MMR is what matters, something you can't just increase by massing games.

yeah sorry maybe my post were misleading, but I never thought you were wrong in anything except when you said that this system is good.
It's bad because you are constantly kept in the dark about your true level/position and what you need to achieve to go into a better division.
For exemple, when you were like lvl 40 with 1 game left to go level 41 in warcraft3, the game were very tense (well they could be), cauz a loss would also mean that you would need 2 or even 3 win to level up to 41.
Now it's like "ok i'm gonna ladder, ho i lost X points, let's make another game".
There is no goal, and without a goal damn the game is way less fun in my opinion. For exemple, i was ranked 12 in my division (???) with 2300 points! I am now ranked 8... Well you know what? It doesn't feel like i m a top 8 AT ALL!

Going to master league would have been a fine goal, except you don't know shit about how far you are from it.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
stiknork
Profile Joined August 2007
United States128 Posts
January 14 2011 16:22 GMT
#364
On January 15 2011 01:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:
It's not a bug that everyone in Master shows the other person as Favored. That will keep happening until those players have points that approach their MMR, and the time at which it will end will differ for everyone.


I see, so the MMR/Points ratio and MMR didn't change with the jump to Masters league, so for people who had 3.5k points before the system is still feeling like they "should" have 3.5k points MMR wise and is favoring everyone consequently?

I guess I don't understand this stuff that much! Thanks for the clarification.
Eeryck
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States184 Posts
January 14 2011 16:39 GMT
#365
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.
?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 16:55:40
January 14 2011 16:53 GMT
#366
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:

1) I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

2) It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


1) Maybe they were testing the reset. That is what will happen to everyone after reset, though the bonus pool will be way lower, everyone will start equal, but with different (the same as now) MMR. Everyone will be favored against everyone till they stabilizes into their points/MMR correlaction, whatever it is...

2) Top 200 have some unknown prerequisites as well, so maybe the system won't give a place in top 200 for people with less than 100 games.

It could actually have lots of prerequisites, something like this:

1) Non-banned and other obvious things ->

2) Top 2000 Points. ->

3) Top 200 MMR. ->

4) Sort by points. ->

Done.

OR

1) Non-banneds

2) Top 500 MMR

3) Sort by points (top 200)

Done.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 17:25:33
January 14 2011 17:25 GMT
#367
Are we really sure that all Master Divisions are equal? It could be that most that got in so far had similar MMR so that it looks that way. In a few weeks maybe people with slightly lower MMR will fill up some new Master Division and have a different division modifier?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 14 2011 17:32 GMT
#368
On January 15 2011 02:25 MockHamill wrote:
Are we really sure that all Master Divisions are equal? It could be that most that got in so far had similar MMR so that it looks that way. In a few weeks maybe people with slightly lower MMR will fill up some new Master Division and have a different division modifier?


I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that they wouldn't all be equal. There are so many players in Master league now I think we can confirm this to be the case.
Moderator
Eeryck
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-14 17:38:19
January 14 2011 17:35 GMT
#369
On January 15 2011 01:53 SDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:

1) I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

2) It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


1) Maybe they were testing the reset. That is what will happen to everyone after reset, though the bonus pool will be way lower, everyone will start equal, but with different (the same as now) MMR. Everyone will be favored against everyone till they stabilizes into their points/MMR correlaction, whatever it is...


This seems reasonable, but I still wonder why pick a method that appears to give a rate of gaining points disadvantage to those that come to the league later?

On January 15 2011 01:53 SDream wrote:
2) Top 200 have some unknown prerequisites as well, so maybe the system won't give a place in top 200 for people with less than 100 games.

It could actually have lots of prerequisites, something like this:

1) Non-banned and other obvious things ->

2) Top 2000 Points. ->

3) Top 200 MMR. ->

4) Sort by points. ->

Done.

OR

1) Non-banneds

2) Top 500 MMR

3) Sort by points (top 200)

Done.


Sure, I gave a quick and simple repost because I was thinking about activity and Masters league and the discussion on the Top 200 and the hidden requirements.

It just seems like the change should give some insight. Groups of people rarely change things on a whim. Of course simple answers have a tendency to be correct so ladder reset could very well be the only reason.
?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 14 2011 17:38 GMT
#370
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


Hm, I think the intent of the point normalization was to satisfy the top-end players who feel they don't need to be coddled with regard to their actual standing. That's something that people on TL (who, make no mistake about it, are far better than the average Bnetter) have been clamoring for since launch. As time passes, we'll invariably see the best players rise to the top of the ladder and be able to compare them on SC2Ranks without having to worry about division offsets or other such obfuscation. Points become far more meaningful in Master league for this reason.
Moderator
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
January 14 2011 19:05 GMT
#371
On January 15 2011 02:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


Hm, I think the intent of the point normalization was to satisfy the top-end players who feel they don't need to be coddled with regard to their actual standing. That's something that people on TL (who, make no mistake about it, are far better than the average Bnetter) have been clamoring for since launch. As time passes, we'll invariably see the best players rise to the top of the ladder and be able to compare them on SC2Ranks without having to worry about division offsets or other such obfuscation. Points become far more meaningful in Master league for this reason.


Of course, they're completely useless until everyone's played the 100+ games it takes to return your points to your MMR. The reset to 2300 was kind of silly. If a player's MMR was 3500, he can rock paper scissors his way back to 3500. Moreover, he can only win 20 points per game (fewer as his points get closer to his MMR), so it will take 60+ wins until his points are relevant again. Even if he wins at a high %, that's a lot of games to play. You can't really blame players with 1000+ points of surplus MMR for using rock paper scissors as a short-cut.
Eeryck
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States184 Posts
January 15 2011 06:57 GMT
#372
On January 15 2011 02:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


Hm, I think the intent of the point normalization was to satisfy the top-end players who feel they don't need to be coddled with regard to their actual standing. That's something that people on TL (who, make no mistake about it, are far better than the average Bnetter) have been clamoring for since launch. As time passes, we'll invariably see the best players rise to the top of the ladder and be able to compare them on SC2Ranks without having to worry about division offsets or other such obfuscation. Points become far more meaningful in Master league for this reason.


It seems like the point normalization would have occurred much more quickly naturally if they just used their standard promotion method. S-rank loses say 73 and all the rest lose 73 plus diamond division modifier.

I understand how the removal of the obfuscation works and agree that it is the right thing to do, but the reset and re-earn seems pretty drastic for basically doing what the system will do anyway.

I guess once people get a demotion out of masters or combined masters and diamond players make the top 200 in LA it may show some more interesting things. Just found their method thought provoking.
?
Meldrath
Profile Joined June 2010
United States620 Posts
January 15 2011 20:09 GMT
#373
2550 points with no bonus pool and a good win/loss ratio nearing 56% I suppose i havent received a promotion yet becuase My mmr puts me against 2500 diamond players...and not against a "master" yet? When the league came out I was so hyped I went on a 6 game win streak thinking promotion any minute now! lol
slap me I must be dreaming another "imba" arugment! fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!
Sigmur
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland497 Posts
January 15 2011 20:28 GMT
#374
On January 16 2011 05:09 Meldrath wrote:
2550 points with no bonus pool and a good win/loss ratio nearing 56% I suppose i havent received a promotion yet becuase My mmr puts me against 2500 diamond players...and not against a "master" yet? When the league came out I was so hyped I went on a 6 game win streak thinking promotion any minute now! lol

Dude relax, just play more games, and hopefully you'll advance
I'm 2750 on EU and still in diamond, but it is just more motivating to play since i'm not in masters league yet ^^
Nevy
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada169 Posts
January 16 2011 00:34 GMT
#375
So if only the top 2% of diamond gets into masters, does that mean eventually the master's league will get full? No one else could enter unless people get demoted?
Penecks
Profile Joined August 2010
United States600 Posts
January 16 2011 00:55 GMT
#376
On January 16 2011 09:34 Nevy wrote:
So if only the top 2% of diamond gets into masters, does that mean eventually the master's league will get full? No one else could enter unless people get demoted?

It's probably just a rough percentage, also assuming more people indeed get into master's league (which would mean raising their MMR), additional players will move into diamond since they will no longer be fighting those players that have moved up via MMR increase. So the ratios will stay similar I believe.
straight poppin
Dice17
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
January 16 2011 04:46 GMT
#377
Could someone please explain to me how when I looked at sc2 ranks there are ppl that have negative percentile and why I am 150 points up today and still haven't reached masters. I know its an mmr thing but it just doesnt seem that realistic
GamaBear #1 Fan! Sen fighting~
Strivers
Profile Joined November 2010
United States358 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 05:36:04
January 16 2011 05:33 GMT
#378
I was promoted to Masters after going 1-3, with the win as my last game. I was 1947 Diamond and dropped to 1810 Masters with the same ~600 bonus pool.

Thinking back it seems the hidden rating is pretty accurate as I remember playing many Rank 1 players during Diamond. This was after taking long breaks of not playing and I was wondering why I was not getting much points for beating them. So my MMR barely went up (+8 points for beating a Rank 1?) but my hidden rating must have.

I know some players who messed up their practice games and stayed in Silver league with 120-5 records jumped to 3100 in Diamond but lost a lot of MMR when promoted to Masters and now are back down to 2300 so this is definitely a closer step to accurate player skills based on their games. GJ Blizz.
These little dudes really like the blue stuff..
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
January 16 2011 05:39 GMT
#379
I had to ladder from 2400 to 2650 diamond, but then it did not seed me at the bottom but @ rank 14...from which i conclude that if u were not in the 1st batch to fill the master league the system will wait longer to seed you into master league.
Like making very very sure you are too good to ever drop to diamond again ^^

I even had a 9 game win streak and did not get promoted, took me a loss and 3 more winsto get there.....
my loss ( cannon rushed my hatch ) was from a rank 12 master league guy so i guess with a 10 game win streak i would have made it too...
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 16 2011 05:52 GMT
#380
On January 16 2011 14:33 Strivers wrote:
I was promoted to Masters after going 1-3, with the win as my last game. I was 1947 Diamond and dropped to 1810 Masters with the same ~600 bonus pool.

Thinking back it seems the hidden rating is pretty accurate as I remember playing many Rank 1 players during Diamond. This was after taking long breaks of not playing and I was wondering why I was not getting much points for beating them. So my MMR barely went up (+8 points for beating a Rank 1?) but my hidden rating must have.

I know some players who messed up their practice games and stayed in Silver league with 120-5 records jumped to 3100 in Diamond but lost a lot of MMR when promoted to Masters and now are back down to 2300 so this is definitely a closer step to accurate player skills based on their games. GJ Blizz.


I think you're confusing terms here. MMR is the hidden skill rating. We refer to the displayed rating as "rating" or "points". You never lose MMR due to promotion.
Moderator
sunsetkid
Profile Joined December 2010
6 Posts
January 16 2011 08:23 GMT
#381
i don't play all that much, but i like the statistics that sc2 churns out.
from my observations. it seems like the displayed points+bonus pool is a reasonably good correlation to getting masters league. those fellas in my division who got promoted last week were generally 2650+ pointers or more after accounting for bonus. i have a D-rank acct in NA and only 2400+(17W, 9L) if i add bonus, since I haven't played for mths.

Going by this, I would need about 10-15 straight wins to hit master. I'm not going to try because isn't very likely I can do that as of now. But give it a few months, I'm sure the number of master divisions will increase, the same way the diamond divisions increased bit by bit.

3-4 mths back, the percentage of 1v1 diamond players according to sc2ranks used to be about 5 percent. its now 7. same for the 3v3 and 4v4s---i remember them having 3-4 percent diamonds. now both are hitting 10 percent.

my main acct is in SEA, so i do count the divisions. when master league first came out, there were 2 on the first day. then another 1 the day after. now there are 4. i'm sure, no doubt, there will be a fifth in time to come.

the vast majority of people who play get promoted in league way more often than getting demoted(its hard to find someone who has been demoted more often than promoted around) and so, i'm sure, that to make people continue playing the game, blizzard will continue promoting people.

in conclusion: fret not if you're in diamond and haven't made masters league. there will be more places and divisions along the way!
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 16 2011 08:41 GMT
#382
How many of you are diamond players and play against master league guys consistently? 3 of the last 4 games I played were against master leaguers (I went 2-1 in those games, and lost to the diamond guy). Curiously enough, one of the master leaguers was "even" against me and the diamond guy was "slightly favored". Hopefully playing master league guys on a regular basis is a sign of promotion...
Apologize.
adi1133
Profile Joined June 2010
Romania109 Posts
January 16 2011 09:29 GMT
#383
any news on when grandmasters league will be active ?
Old School > New School
woozie
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden53 Posts
January 16 2011 10:12 GMT
#384
On January 16 2011 18:29 adi1133 wrote:
any news on when grandmasters league will be active ?

Not as far as I know. I bet blizzard will post this on their website when that happens, though.
thOr6136
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Slovenia1775 Posts
January 16 2011 10:36 GMT
#385
On January 16 2011 17:41 Neo.NEt wrote:
How many of you are diamond players and play against master league guys consistently? 3 of the last 4 games I played were against master leaguers (I went 2-1 in those games, and lost to the diamond guy). Curiously enough, one of the master leaguers was "even" against me and the diamond guy was "slightly favored". Hopefully playing master league guys on a regular basis is a sign of promotion...


yes, it is, it was same with me, after few more games, like 3-4 (i won them all) i got promoted. So just keep playing and winning
Matiz_pl
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland163 Posts
January 16 2011 12:57 GMT
#386
I don't understand one thing about the masters league, since I have been promoted, I keep getting 20 points for the win and like 3-5 for loss. I've checked accounts of my friends and even some top players, like haypro. It looks like everyone in the league is favoured over another guy in master league. What I mean is: When I faced my friend nukestrike before 1.2 he was slightly favoured over me, now if we play each other, then bnet shows to me that I was favoured over him AND bnet shows for him that he was favoured over me. It clearly doesn't make sense, anyone to explain this? Do you experience the similiar thing?
"Competitive gaming consists of one and only one rule. You use what wins. " - FuumaMonou
Brett
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Australia3820 Posts
January 16 2011 12:59 GMT
#387
Is masters league exclusive to 1v1?
Meldrath
Profile Joined June 2010
United States620 Posts
January 16 2011 13:02 GMT
#388
I wouldnt think it would be.... you would assume you could have masters 2v2 and 3v3 just like you could have diamond.. no reason not to be able to really.
slap me I must be dreaming another "imba" arugment! fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!
Meldrath
Profile Joined June 2010
United States620 Posts
January 16 2011 13:05 GMT
#389
On January 16 2011 17:23 sunsetkid wrote:
i don't play all that much, but i like the statistics that sc2 churns out.
from my observations. it seems like the displayed points+bonus pool is a reasonably good correlation to getting masters league. those fellas in my division who got promoted last week were generally 2650+ pointers or more after accounting for bonus. i have a D-rank acct in NA and only 2400+(17W, 9L) if i add bonus, since I haven't played for mths.

Going by this, I would need about 10-15 straight wins to hit master. I'm not going to try because isn't very likely I can do that as of now. But give it a few months, I'm sure the number of master divisions will increase, the same way the diamond divisions increased bit by bit.

3-4 mths back, the percentage of 1v1 diamond players according to sc2ranks used to be about 5 percent. its now 7. same for the 3v3 and 4v4s---i remember them having 3-4 percent diamonds. now both are hitting 10 percent.

my main acct is in SEA, so i do count the divisions. when master league first came out, there were 2 on the first day. then another 1 the day after. now there are 4. i'm sure, no doubt, there will be a fifth in time to come.

the vast majority of people who play get promoted in league way more often than getting demoted(its hard to find someone who has been demoted more often than promoted around) and so, i'm sure, that to make people continue playing the game, blizzard will continue promoting people.

in conclusion: fret not if you're in diamond and haven't made masters league. there will be more places and divisions along the way!
What if the 2% is a hard cap that cannot flex with the number of people qualified and requires someone to fall off in order for someone new to fill the void?
slap me I must be dreaming another "imba" arugment! fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!
Nevy
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada169 Posts
January 16 2011 17:42 GMT
#390
On January 16 2011 22:05 Meldrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2011 17:23 sunsetkid wrote:
i don't play all that much, but i like the statistics that sc2 churns out.
from my observations. it seems like the displayed points+bonus pool is a reasonably good correlation to getting masters league. those fellas in my division who got promoted last week were generally 2650+ pointers or more after accounting for bonus. i have a D-rank acct in NA and only 2400+(17W, 9L) if i add bonus, since I haven't played for mths.

Going by this, I would need about 10-15 straight wins to hit master. I'm not going to try because isn't very likely I can do that as of now. But give it a few months, I'm sure the number of master divisions will increase, the same way the diamond divisions increased bit by bit.

3-4 mths back, the percentage of 1v1 diamond players according to sc2ranks used to be about 5 percent. its now 7. same for the 3v3 and 4v4s---i remember them having 3-4 percent diamonds. now both are hitting 10 percent.

my main acct is in SEA, so i do count the divisions. when master league first came out, there were 2 on the first day. then another 1 the day after. now there are 4. i'm sure, no doubt, there will be a fifth in time to come.

the vast majority of people who play get promoted in league way more often than getting demoted(its hard to find someone who has been demoted more often than promoted around) and so, i'm sure, that to make people continue playing the game, blizzard will continue promoting people.

in conclusion: fret not if you're in diamond and haven't made masters league. there will be more places and divisions along the way!
What if the 2% is a hard cap that cannot flex with the number of people qualified and requires someone to fall off in order for someone new to fill the void?


This is somewhat what I was wondering as well. There are 3822 people in Masters so far in NA according to sc2ranks.com. Let's see if that number increases over time.
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
January 16 2011 17:48 GMT
#391
On January 16 2011 21:57 Matiz_pl wrote:
I don't understand one thing about the masters league, since I have been promoted, I keep getting 20 points for the win and like 3-5 for loss. I've checked accounts of my friends and even some top players, like haypro. It looks like everyone in the league is favoured over another guy in master league. What I mean is: When I faced my friend nukestrike before 1.2 he was slightly favoured over me, now if we play each other, then bnet shows to me that I was favoured over him AND bnet shows for him that he was favoured over me. It clearly doesn't make sense, anyone to explain this? Do you experience the similiar thing?


Because of the pont reset, many players' points are way below their MMR right now. Since being favoured is calculated by comparing your amount of points with your opponents' MMR, two players with much higher MMR than points will both be favoured versus each other.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 16 2011 17:50 GMT
#392
On January 16 2011 21:57 Matiz_pl wrote:
I don't understand one thing about the masters league, since I have been promoted, I keep getting 20 points for the win and like 3-5 for loss. I've checked accounts of my friends and even some top players, like haypro. It looks like everyone in the league is favoured over another guy in master league. What I mean is: When I faced my friend nukestrike before 1.2 he was slightly favoured over me, now if we play each other, then bnet shows to me that I was favoured over him AND bnet shows for him that he was favoured over me. It clearly doesn't make sense, anyone to explain this? Do you experience the similiar thing?

This happens because the Master league reset the players' ratings back to around 2300 pts. Currently, a lot of Master league players' MMR is much higher than that. The amount of pts awarded/deducted for win/loss is based on the player's pts vs the opponent's MMR. Thus, because the player's pts is a lot lower than it should be, they will get 20 for the win and only lose 3-5 until their pts more closely converges to their MMR.
Megaman
Profile Joined August 2010
United States19 Posts
January 16 2011 20:22 GMT
#393
Yeah Brett Master's league is exclusive to 1on1. There is no 2on2 3on3 4on4 master's division or players at this time.

Also, as a separate aside to the people posting something along the lines of "Why am I not in master's yet?", you're not good enough. It's not like the algorithm selected you to stay out. When/if you are good enough, you will get in. Most of the people posting that question barely play and want to do 2 matches and get in master's league and go brag about it so it is good that they don't get in anyway.

As a last bit to add, this league has been wonderful. Discussion about diamond this and diamond that is gone, and those who are in master's league and mention it are good enough that I am glad to hear their discussion. Win/win.

You done good Blizzard.
Rachnar
Profile Joined October 2010
France1526 Posts
January 16 2011 20:25 GMT
#394
yep i agree, sometimes in early stages of tourneys still play against diamond, and you clearly see and feel the difference between master league and diamond players
"What if it's a triple DK ?" "Then we cry" "Prepare your handkerchief then ..."
Doomblaze
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1292 Posts
January 16 2011 21:02 GMT
#395
On January 15 2011 01:18 WhiteDog wrote:

Going to master league would have been a fine goal, except you don't know shit about how far you are from it.


You do know shit about how far you are from it, its not hard at all to figure out.
Look at who youre playing against, if you're winning against everybody in diamond who youre playing against and going even, or more than even, with people in masters, you will get promoted.
Thats how it works for every other league, theres no reason for masters to be different.

In the beginning of masters, people who were higher than a certain mmr got promoted instantly, because they needed to fill up divisions, same as how diamond used to be.
In Mushi we trust
N0cturnal
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom40 Posts
January 16 2011 21:09 GMT
#396
something is fucked. My bud got into master from 2k diamond after less than 5 games. He is NOT an sc2 master by any means.

Bonus pool fail?
For Aiur!
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
January 16 2011 21:15 GMT
#397
On January 17 2011 02:50 Azzur wrote:
This happens because the Master league reset the players' ratings back to around 2300 pts.

What happens is that your points are reset to your spent bonus points +73. This happens for all leagues and for both promotion and demotion, and it has been like this from the beginning. It's strange that nobody has discovered it until now.
YourMom
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania565 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 21:17:41
January 16 2011 21:17 GMT
#398
On January 17 2011 06:09 N0cturnal wrote:
something is fucked. My bud got into master from 2k diamond after less than 5 games. He is NOT an sc2 master by any means.

Bonus pool fail?


nothing is fucked. bonus pool has nothing to do with his promotion.
I'm very good at making carriers.
MelnaisKrauklis
Profile Joined September 2010
101 Posts
January 16 2011 21:18 GMT
#399
On January 17 2011 06:09 N0cturnal wrote:
something is fucked. My bud got into master from 2k diamond after less than 5 games. He is NOT an sc2 master by any means.

Bonus pool fail?


Its not connected to bonus pool in any way. Please read OP.

(jealous) =]
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 16 2011 21:30 GMT
#400
On January 17 2011 05:22 Megaman wrote:
Yeah Brett Master's league is exclusive to 1on1. There is no 2on2 3on3 4on4 master's division or players at this time.

Also, as a separate aside to the people posting something along the lines of "Why am I not in master's yet?", you're not good enough. It's not like the algorithm selected you to stay out. When/if you are good enough, you will get in. Most of the people posting that question barely play and want to do 2 matches and get in master's league and go brag about it so it is good that they don't get in anyway.

As a last bit to add, this league has been wonderful. Discussion about diamond this and diamond that is gone, and those who are in master's league and mention it are good enough that I am glad to hear their discussion. Win/win.

You done good Blizzard.


i personally could live with being not good enough to be promoted into masters league but there are so many examples where i simply cannot understand why some others were actually promoted or lets say i cant understand how their mmr could ever be better than mine

this also wont change until blizz makes your mmr visible or even better explain how mmr generates

Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 00:02 GMT
#401
On January 17 2011 06:15 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 02:50 Azzur wrote:
This happens because the Master league reset the players' ratings back to around 2300 pts.

What happens is that your points are reset to your spent bonus points +73. This happens for all leagues and for both promotion and demotion, and it has been like this from the beginning. It's strange that nobody has discovered it until now.


In our defense, it wasn't very obvious until everyone started getting tied for points after promotion into the Master league. Outside of a few people, nobody really tracked their bonus pool consumption so this made it very mysterious. Nevertheless, we're going to see what exactly we can gain from tracking promotions using a tool that Vanick is developing.
Moderator
DooMDash
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1015 Posts
January 17 2011 00:11 GMT
#402
Question : Does your bonus pool disappear when you get into Master League?
S1 3500+ Master T. S2 1600+ Master T.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 01:54 GMT
#403
On January 17 2011 09:11 DooMDash wrote:
Question : Does your bonus pool disappear when you get into Master League?


No. Master league is really no different from any other league.
Moderator
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
January 17 2011 01:57 GMT
#404
How long did it take you guys to hit diamond? I've won 13/15 of my past 15 games, and they were all vs masters or top diamond. Still not getting promoted.
sunsetkid
Profile Joined December 2010
6 Posts
January 17 2011 04:16 GMT
#405
On January 16 2011 09:34 Nevy wrote:
So if only the top 2% of diamond gets into masters, does that mean eventually the master's league will get full? No one else could enter unless people get demoted?



i'm of the opinion that the number of masters league players will increase over time, the same way diamond increased. lets count it as the days pass by
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44118 Posts
January 17 2011 04:24 GMT
#406
My little brother plays non-stop (he's ~2800 Diamond) and he still hasn't been promoted to Master yet, even though he's been on a really good winning streak since the patch came out and he's considerably higher than many of the Master people he's played against (in both points and in W/L ratio).

He's very frustrated that he hasn't been moved up, since the highest level players are supposed to be moved up and he sees many players who are much lower than him being moved up. It's not that he thinks he's the best; it's just that he sees a lot of worse players already in the Master league.

I just told him to keep playing, since the promotion is probably just as random as the lower league promotions. I didn't think the Master league would be any more straightforward to be promoted to than any other league. High Diamond is currently the equivalent of Masters anyway, right?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
January 17 2011 04:27 GMT
#407
I could probably get into Masters if I laddered a week or so (I'm not good enough to one day it lol) but then I feel like I betrayed my name..... decisions decisions...

Thanks for the cool info though ! Awesome thread!
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 04:27 GMT
#408
On January 17 2011 13:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My little brother plays non-stop (he's ~2800 Diamond) and he still hasn't been promoted to Master yet, even though he's been on a really good winning streak since the patch came out and he's considerably higher than many of the Master people he's played against (in both points and in W/L ratio).

He's very frustrated that he hasn't been moved up, since the highest level players are supposed to be moved up and he sees many players who are much lower than him being moved up. It's not that he thinks he's the best; it's just that he sees a lot of worse players already in the Master league.

I just told him to keep playing, since the promotion is probably just as random as the lower league promotions. I didn't think the Master league would be any more straightforward to be promoted to than any other league. High Diamond is currently the equivalent of Masters anyway, right?


Did you read the thread at all? Do you understand how the system works at all? Points determine nothing with regard to promotion.
Moderator
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 17 2011 04:41 GMT
#409
On January 17 2011 06:15 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 02:50 Azzur wrote:
This happens because the Master league reset the players' ratings back to around 2300 pts.

What happens is that your points are reset to your spent bonus points +73. This happens for all leagues and for both promotion and demotion, and it has been like this from the beginning. It's strange that nobody has discovered it until now.

I was aware of this, but I just said 2300 but didn't mention the qualifier that all bonus pool pts are spent.
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
January 17 2011 05:18 GMT
#410
On January 17 2011 13:27 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 13:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My little brother plays non-stop (he's ~2800 Diamond) and he still hasn't been promoted to Master yet, even though he's been on a really good winning streak since the patch came out and he's considerably higher than many of the Master people he's played against (in both points and in W/L ratio).

He's very frustrated that he hasn't been moved up, since the highest level players are supposed to be moved up and he sees many players who are much lower than him being moved up. It's not that he thinks he's the best; it's just that he sees a lot of worse players already in the Master league.

I just told him to keep playing, since the promotion is probably just as random as the lower league promotions. I didn't think the Master league would be any more straightforward to be promoted to than any other league. High Diamond is currently the equivalent of Masters anyway, right?


Did you read the thread at all? Do you understand how the system works at all? Points determine nothing with regard to promotion.

the pts in masters is real mmr or theres still a hidden rating ?
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 17 2011 06:29 GMT
#411
On January 17 2011 14:18 desrow wrote:
the pts in masters is real mmr or theres still a hidden rating ?


No in masters your points will still be inflated by bonus pool. Your matchmaking is still hidden in masters, just as with every other league.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Grendel
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium126 Posts
January 17 2011 09:16 GMT
#412
Well, i've read now multiple times that someone who gets promoted loses all his points (except bonus pool) but will then gain more points with his wins until it reflects his MMR.

But, I was 2800-2900 diamond before promotion, and after promotion into Masters i only get about 10-11 points per win and more often lose more per win (12-13pts). I know this is probably on purpose, but is this the same with every Diamond player of approximately my rank before promotion?
Because this basically means I lose more points than I win if I play on a 50//50 win loss base (which is annoying, and making it hard to gain ranks on ladder.).

It just seems so 'unfair' (although I know it's not) with already a 3,3k pt player in my league.
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
January 17 2011 09:20 GMT
#413
You win and lose based on your mmr and rating relative to the opponents mmr.

If you are gaining little and losing much, you are facing lower mmr players than yourself.
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
January 17 2011 09:28 GMT
#414
On January 15 2011 01:12 stiknork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:08 Excalibur_Z wrote:

What bug is that exactly?



From your OP:

Show nested quote +
Rankings are not awarding properly for Master League
We are looking into an issue with rankings and point awards in Master League and should have a resolution as soon as possible. We are again sorry for any inconvenience this has caused


I assume this is referring to the bug that has everyone favored against everyone? Because that's what I'm talking about. Not sure if it's still the case, but many players have at least gained an easy +700-900 points from it.

Not the case anymore. I got even and me slightly favoured etc. And it said it was fixed in OP too.

@Excalibur
The favoured / even etc status of a match depends on my MMR vs my opponents shown points right?
My opponent yesterday was a 2600 rated Master and I was favoured over him. This means that my MMR is higher than 2600 Master rating right?

I was inactive for 10 weeks or so (thx wow ) thus my bonus pool before promotion was quite high and now I'm at 1500 Master with 1k bonus pool points or so.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Comma20
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia138 Posts
January 17 2011 10:58 GMT
#415
This is why you're not in Masters, if you think you should be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-17 13:59:47
January 17 2011 13:48 GMT
#416
On January 17 2011 06:02 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 01:18 WhiteDog wrote:

Going to master league would have been a fine goal, except you don't know shit about how far you are from it.


You do know shit about how far you are from it, its not hard at all to figure out.
Look at who youre playing against, if you're winning against everybody in diamond who youre playing against and going even, or more than even, with people in masters, you will get promoted.
Thats how it works for every other league, theres no reason for masters to be different.

In the beginning of masters, people who were higher than a certain mmr got promoted instantly, because they needed to fill up divisions, same as how diamond used to be.

Seriously, it's absolutly random to get promoted. I got promoted after playing 7 games after patch, all win, against master player and diamond. I don't why i got promoted after my 7th win.
I know it's easy to give explanation to this league system, but obviously it is not rewarding when you play, you don't know when you get promoted (why this game and not that one? Why today and not yesterday ?). It's very frustrating and I don't see many players, and especially the low tier player, keeping playing in this kind of ladder system.

I think, what most you must understand is the "timing" question. For exemple, a 2000 diamond with say 250-200 and got promoted while a 200-170 2700 diamond is still struggling to get into master league is easy to explain: because the 2000 diamond player was innactive and got his 2000 diamond way back when 2000 diamond was actually a very good rating. His MMR is the same as a 2800-2900 diamond who kept playing.
That's why many people think the bonus pool have something to do with the promotion: it indicate that this player was inactive since a long time, so it's an indicator in a weird way. A 2000 diamond with 1500 bonus pool mean he was 2000 diamond 1 or 2 month ago!
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-17 14:34:51
January 17 2011 14:30 GMT
#417
+ Show Spoiler +

This is why you're not in Masters, if you think you should be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority


Like this )


Ok, we all talk here about promotion.. I`m still in Diamond, but I have a question.. why is nobody get demoted, or why so less. For example in you get into diamond with letes say 30-10, and after that you lose an your stats will look like 35-30 you shoudl get demoted to platinum. If nobody gets demoted.. in a future far away all will be in the highest league... or the majority. Ok.. my question : do you guys know anybody who got demoted?, for example... why there is still in diamond a player with 47-48% win rate?
Maru | Life | herO
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-17 14:40:26
January 17 2011 14:37 GMT
#418
On January 17 2011 15:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 14:18 desrow wrote:
the pts in masters is real mmr or theres still a hidden rating ?


No in masters your points will still be inflated by bonus pool. Your matchmaking is still hidden in masters, just as with every other league.


Though it seems everyones MMR is consistent across divisions within the masters league from what I'm gathering?

On January 17 2011 13:16 sunsetkid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2011 09:34 Nevy wrote:
So if only the top 2% of diamond gets into masters, does that mean eventually the master's league will get full? No one else could enter unless people get demoted?



i'm of the opinion that the number of masters league players will increase over time, the same way diamond increased. lets count it as the days pass by



And the size of the masters league shouldn't grow more than 2%. The only way it would "grow" is in size of players, but that would mean that the overall player base across every division and every league would have to increase. The 2% in masters league would never increase, just how much 2% actually means.

On January 17 2011 22:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 06:02 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
On January 15 2011 01:18 WhiteDog wrote:

Going to master league would have been a fine goal, except you don't know shit about how far you are from it.


You do know shit about how far you are from it, its not hard at all to figure out.
Look at who youre playing against, if you're winning against everybody in diamond who youre playing against and going even, or more than even, with people in masters, you will get promoted.
Thats how it works for every other league, theres no reason for masters to be different.

In the beginning of masters, people who were higher than a certain mmr got promoted instantly, because they needed to fill up divisions, same as how diamond used to be.

Seriously, it's absolutly random to get promoted. I got promoted after playing 7 games after patch, all win, against master player and diamond. I don't why i got promoted after my 7th win.
I know it's easy to give explanation to this league system, but obviously it is not rewarding when you play, you don't know when you get promoted (why this game and not that one? Why today and not yesterday ?). It's very frustrating and I don't see many players, and especially the low tier player, keeping playing in this kind of ladder system.

I think, what most you must understand is the "timing" question. For exemple, a 2000 diamond with say 250-200 and got promoted while a 200-170 2700 diamond is still struggling to get into master league is easy to explain: because the 2000 diamond player was innactive and got his 2000 diamond way back when 2000 diamond was actually a very good rating. His MMR is the same as a 2800-2900 diamond who kept playing.
That's why many people think the bonus pool have something to do with the promotion: it indicate that this player was inactive since a long time, so it's an indicator in a weird way. A 2000 diamond with 1500 bonus pool mean he was 2000 diamond 1 or 2 month ago!



It's not that random. You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Your hidden MMR was not high enough to get added to masters league. Most people had to play 1 match to get promoted because they already met the requirements. You were probably lacking points so the system didn't promote you. It's not like diamond where players were getting promoted left and right.
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-17 14:44:30
January 17 2011 14:43 GMT
#419
On January 17 2011 13:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My little brother plays non-stop (he's ~2800 Diamond) and he still hasn't been promoted to Master yet, even though he's been on a really good winning streak since the patch came out and he's considerably higher than many of the Master people he's played against (in both points and in W/L ratio).

He's very frustrated that he hasn't been moved up, since the highest level players are supposed to be moved up and he sees many players who are much lower than him being moved up. It's not that he thinks he's the best; it's just that he sees a lot of worse players already in the Master league.

I just told him to keep playing, since the promotion is probably just as random as the lower league promotions. I didn't think the Master league would be any more straightforward to be promoted to than any other league. High Diamond is currently the equivalent of Masters anyway, right?


It was said in Blizzcon (I think) that the promotion system is conservative. Or in other words, it won't promote you until it is absolutely sure you can handle the next league. When you get placed on ladder for first time it's easier to get promoted (or demoted) since the system isn't very accurate with low number of played games.

This means that you have to raise your hidden MMR to match the levels of current masters, or into the range that Blizz accepts into masters. It may take a long while to raise your MMR to these levels. Even then briefly getting into that range isn't enough, you need to stay there for a while.

I maintained over 60% win ratio for over 70 matches before I got promoted from platinum to diamond. It takes a while. Winning streaks help with getting promoted but even then you have to be prepeared for a long, long journey.
ilmman
Profile Joined September 2010
364 Posts
January 17 2011 14:51 GMT
#420
please please i think the master league was created so people in TL who keeps saying "im a 2000+ diamond" just set their theorycraft to be legitimate, now realize that anything they have to contribute will easily be proven worthless. Now they can't get into this league and they are going nuts about it because yer... muahahah
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
January 17 2011 14:54 GMT
#421
not necessarily, i am 2k + diamond and i know I am not yet ready for master, after the patch i have something like 9 win strike, 9 defeats, 8 wins, 6 defeats... so I am fluctuating, not stable at all, is ok for me for know to stay in diamond.
Maru | Life | herO
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
January 17 2011 15:30 GMT
#422
On January 17 2011 22:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Seriously, it's absolutly random to get promoted.


No, it's not.

There is some analysis of the ladder you can do to link MMR and points/bonus pool but no one can be sure of it. If you don't get promoted, it's because your MMR isn't high enough and the second (or game) that you will hit the correct MMR, you'll be master.

It is also incorrect to think that a player who has a 200-150 record has a higher MMR than a 200-175.

It's sad but It is what Blizzard has done with their ladder. Lots of speculations, lots of question, no real answers. Even top 200 is determined by points so it favours players who plays alot. You can be ranked #1 and still not be favored vs someone, which is sad.

What I would do is to put master league top 1000 and all in one division, no bonus pool. It would be more representative this way.
Brood War is forever
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
January 17 2011 15:32 GMT
#423
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 15:51 GMT
#424
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.
Moderator
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
January 17 2011 16:07 GMT
#425
That would explain why they publish the top 200 without any sort of numeric ranking I suppose. I feel like the system is very good, earlier on the ladder it seemed like it was "roll or get rolled" but over time I've had much more competitive games.
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 17 2011 16:11 GMT
#426
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.


i think how it exactly works would none understand anyways but it would be nice if there would be some basic informations about
Ratel
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada184 Posts
January 17 2011 16:25 GMT
#427
2517 diamond here, 1st in my diamond division, games going up and down (sometimes lose streaks sometimes win streaks, sometimes just win lose win lose)
not sure if gona get promoted at this rate
Eeryck
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States184 Posts
January 17 2011 16:38 GMT
#428
On January 15 2011 15:57 Eeryck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 02:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


Hm, I think the intent of the point normalization was to satisfy the top-end players who feel they don't need to be coddled with regard to their actual standing. That's something that people on TL (who, make no mistake about it, are far better than the average Bnetter) have been clamoring for since launch. As time passes, we'll invariably see the best players rise to the top of the ladder and be able to compare them on SC2Ranks without having to worry about division offsets or other such obfuscation. Points become far more meaningful in Master league for this reason.


It seems like the point normalization would have occurred much more quickly naturally if they just used their standard promotion method. S-rank loses say 73 and all the rest lose 73 plus diamond division modifier.

I understand how the removal of the obfuscation works and agree that it is the right thing to do, but the reset and re-earn seems pretty drastic for basically doing what the system will do anyway.

I guess once people get a demotion out of masters or combined masters and diamond players make the top 200 in LA it may show some more interesting things. Just found their method thought provoking.


SDream/Excal:

So it seems that all promotions are unspent bonus pool +73 across all leagues? SDream I saw this in your post on tracking promotion points, but is that it, pretty much confirmed and dead?

This would kill the idea of reverse engineering a continuous ladder right? Since every time you are promoted you would be playing to have convergence between displayed ranking and MMR.

This also is messing with my head about division tiers, they are obviously "real" in the sense that it was repeatedly seen by multiple people and utilized to gain some information. I know it is less relevant now with Masters league, still curious.

With this information it seems like the ladder is made up of (numbers of sub-leagues chosen arbitrarily) say 2-bronze, 1-silver, 1gold, 2-platinum, 6-diamond, 1-masters = 13 or more leagues with a different MMR requirement for each one. However, once you cross into a new major division there is no additional promotions between the minor leagues in each major division. Perhaps that is how they keep their promotions "conservative"
?
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
January 17 2011 16:41 GMT
#429
On January 18 2011 01:07 Zorkmid wrote:
That would explain why they publish the top 200 without any sort of numeric ranking I suppose. I feel like the system is very good, earlier on the ladder it seemed like it was "roll or get rolled" but over time I've had much more competitive games.


IIRC the top 200 is by points, you can proof-check by looking at sc2ranks.

The matchmaking system is indeed really really good, probably the best I've ever seen.




On January 18 2011 01:25 snicp wrote:
2517 diamond here, 1st in my diamond division, games going up and down (sometimes lose streaks sometimes win streaks, sometimes just win lose win lose)
not sure if gona get promoted at this rate


Depends on your opponent MMR, the only way to know would be to check if you opponent were masters and see if they were favored and whatso. Check opponent match history and see if the've been matched vs diamond or masters. It sucks but it's they only way.
Brood War is forever
kYem
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom412 Posts
January 17 2011 16:58 GMT
#430
On January 17 2011 23:51 ilmman wrote:
please please i think the master league was created so people in TL who keeps saying "im a 2000+ diamond" just set their theorycraft to be legitimate, now realize that anything they have to contribute will easily be proven worthless. Now they can't get into this league and they are going nuts about it because yer... muahahah


I dont really think it matters much, what i'm looking foward to is grand master league. Coz there is a lot of low level players in master... so only "Grand Master" will mean something.
Hell
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 17 2011 17:09 GMT
#431
On January 17 2011 23:37 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 15:29 hunts wrote:
On January 17 2011 14:18 desrow wrote:
the pts in masters is real mmr or theres still a hidden rating ?


No in masters your points will still be inflated by bonus pool. Your matchmaking is still hidden in masters, just as with every other league.


Though it seems everyones MMR is consistent across divisions within the masters league from what I'm gathering?

Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 13:16 sunsetkid wrote:
On January 16 2011 09:34 Nevy wrote:
So if only the top 2% of diamond gets into masters, does that mean eventually the master's league will get full? No one else could enter unless people get demoted?



i'm of the opinion that the number of masters league players will increase over time, the same way diamond increased. lets count it as the days pass by



And the size of the masters league shouldn't grow more than 2%. The only way it would "grow" is in size of players, but that would mean that the overall player base across every division and every league would have to increase. The 2% in masters league would never increase, just how much 2% actually means.

Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 22:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 17 2011 06:02 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
On January 15 2011 01:18 WhiteDog wrote:

Going to master league would have been a fine goal, except you don't know shit about how far you are from it.


You do know shit about how far you are from it, its not hard at all to figure out.
Look at who youre playing against, if you're winning against everybody in diamond who youre playing against and going even, or more than even, with people in masters, you will get promoted.
Thats how it works for every other league, theres no reason for masters to be different.

In the beginning of masters, people who were higher than a certain mmr got promoted instantly, because they needed to fill up divisions, same as how diamond used to be.

Seriously, it's absolutly random to get promoted. I got promoted after playing 7 games after patch, all win, against master player and diamond. I don't why i got promoted after my 7th win.
I know it's easy to give explanation to this league system, but obviously it is not rewarding when you play, you don't know when you get promoted (why this game and not that one? Why today and not yesterday ?). It's very frustrating and I don't see many players, and especially the low tier player, keeping playing in this kind of ladder system.

I think, what most you must understand is the "timing" question. For exemple, a 2000 diamond with say 250-200 and got promoted while a 200-170 2700 diamond is still struggling to get into master league is easy to explain: because the 2000 diamond player was innactive and got his 2000 diamond way back when 2000 diamond was actually a very good rating. His MMR is the same as a 2800-2900 diamond who kept playing.
That's why many people think the bonus pool have something to do with the promotion: it indicate that this player was inactive since a long time, so it's an indicator in a weird way. A 2000 diamond with 1500 bonus pool mean he was 2000 diamond 1 or 2 month ago!



It's not that random. You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Your hidden MMR was not high enough to get added to masters league. Most people had to play 1 match to get promoted because they already met the requirements. You were probably lacking points so the system didn't promote you. It's not like diamond where players were getting promoted left and right.

Yeah it's not that random, but the player have no clue about how far he is from getting promoted, so it's the same.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Zacsafus
Profile Joined May 2010
England255 Posts
January 17 2011 17:28 GMT
#432
almost 2800 diamond and still no premotion, even tho most of the masters players i face seem to be of a poorer quality than some of the high diamonds... i think they should have had a number of games requisit so that only active people get in, for example there are alot of people who went like 17 for 1 and then didnt play until masters was out, then won 1 game and now are just not playing again.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 17:46 GMT
#433
On January 18 2011 01:38 Eeryck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2011 15:57 Eeryck wrote:
On January 15 2011 02:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 15 2011 01:39 Eeryck wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Blizzard chose to "normalize" be starting all master league players with a default points of "spent bonus pool +73"

It seems to me that if they would have just deducted points based on existing division modifier + masters offset the same "normalization" would have occurred. Just a bit more slowly.

While MMR convergence is happening quickly now (for active players) because of most displayed ratings being lower than MMR, after things stabilize people who are promoted later (or less active) into masters league will take much longer to converge to their MMR with this method.

I wonder why Blizzard decided that this is their preferred method?

It also makes me thing about the top 200 calculation speculations that they are first chosen by MMR then sorted by points. There are obviously high MMR low activity players and if the top 200 speculation is correct then they are getting sorted out by not having played enough games even though they could be top 200 if you looked at their MMR in a vacuum (of course if they played a lot more games they would most likely have a lower MMR).

I wonder if this decision is to give them some method to demote non-active master league players?

I can't speculate any other reason for the change in promotion mechanic.


Hm, I think the intent of the point normalization was to satisfy the top-end players who feel they don't need to be coddled with regard to their actual standing. That's something that people on TL (who, make no mistake about it, are far better than the average Bnetter) have been clamoring for since launch. As time passes, we'll invariably see the best players rise to the top of the ladder and be able to compare them on SC2Ranks without having to worry about division offsets or other such obfuscation. Points become far more meaningful in Master league for this reason.


It seems like the point normalization would have occurred much more quickly naturally if they just used their standard promotion method. S-rank loses say 73 and all the rest lose 73 plus diamond division modifier.

I understand how the removal of the obfuscation works and agree that it is the right thing to do, but the reset and re-earn seems pretty drastic for basically doing what the system will do anyway.

I guess once people get a demotion out of masters or combined masters and diamond players make the top 200 in LA it may show some more interesting things. Just found their method thought provoking.


SDream/Excal:

So it seems that all promotions are unspent bonus pool +73 across all leagues? SDream I saw this in your post on tracking promotion points, but is that it, pretty much confirmed and dead?

This would kill the idea of reverse engineering a continuous ladder right? Since every time you are promoted you would be playing to have convergence between displayed ranking and MMR.

This also is messing with my head about division tiers, they are obviously "real" in the sense that it was repeatedly seen by multiple people and utilized to gain some information. I know it is less relevant now with Masters league, still curious.

With this information it seems like the ladder is made up of (numbers of sub-leagues chosen arbitrarily) say 2-bronze, 1-silver, 1gold, 2-platinum, 6-diamond, 1-masters = 13 or more leagues with a different MMR requirement for each one. However, once you cross into a new major division there is no additional promotions between the minor leagues in each major division. Perhaps that is how they keep their promotions "conservative"


Yeah, that seems to be what we're seeing. It really does throw a wrench into what we're trying to do, but we're still looking to get as much information as possible to try and find some patterns.
Moderator
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
January 17 2011 18:11 GMT
#434
So is sc2ranks.com accurate enough to estimate how close you are to masters league?

I know it is based off a hidden MMR, but I'm wondering if you could estimate it based on your "region rank" and then how close you are to the top 2% in your region. I'm asking because I have no idea how sc2ranks calculates your region rank, if it is purely based off points then I guess it would be irrelevant, are they taking "division modifiers" into consideration or anything else?
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 18:28 GMT
#435
On January 18 2011 03:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
So is sc2ranks.com accurate enough to estimate how close you are to masters league?

I know it is based off a hidden MMR, but I'm wondering if you could estimate it based on your "region rank" and then how close you are to the top 2% in your region. I'm asking because I have no idea how sc2ranks calculates your region rank, if it is purely based off points then I guess it would be irrelevant, are they taking "division modifiers" into consideration or anything else?


It's only displayed points.
Moderator
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 17 2011 19:14 GMT
#436
On January 18 2011 01:58 kYem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2011 23:51 ilmman wrote:
please please i think the master league was created so people in TL who keeps saying "im a 2000+ diamond" just set their theorycraft to be legitimate, now realize that anything they have to contribute will easily be proven worthless. Now they can't get into this league and they are going nuts about it because yer... muahahah


I dont really think it matters much, what i'm looking foward to is grand master league. Coz there is a lot of low level players in master... so only "Grand Master" will mean something.


unless you can also go there with just buying a new account like many many current master league players
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 17 2011 19:26 GMT
#437
Any idea on the range of the moving average used for promotion (number of games)? My guess would be 22, given that this used to be the minimum number of games to get promoted into diamond after placement (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).
Chrysalis.145
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 17 2011 19:34 GMT
#438
On January 18 2011 04:26 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Any idea on the range of the moving average used for promotion (number of games)? My guess would be 22, given that this used to be the minimum number of games to get promoted into diamond after placement (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).


That's not true anymore. People have been placed initially into Diamond after 1.2. Also, Vanick got promoted after his 10th game from Bronze to Silver. The interval may be 5 or so?
Moderator
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
January 17 2011 19:43 GMT
#439
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.



I actually think it's for a much more simple reason. In wow arena, getting a high MMR ranking means you can earn more points per week which can be used to purchase gear. wow arena is not actually competitive at the lower tiers and like 99% of people do it for fun as a side for when they aren't raiding. Displaying MMR lets them know how they are doing competitively since there are no divisions.


SC2 has no motivation for gaining points other than prestige. You can't purchase new stuff or anything and points are simply for prestige. Because of this, the only possible reward is an arbitrary points system and a tier system. They don't want you to know your MMR so that you don't get discouraged since there are no other rewards.

As far as balance goes, I believe at blizzcon that they said that the balance is specifically designed for the highest tier so that can't be a reason to not display MMR at all.

The points system also encourages people to mass games which otherwise, if you were winning at a 50% win rate, you would be discouraged to do.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Crashburn
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States476 Posts
January 17 2011 19:49 GMT
#440
I know someone who was promoted to master's league -- he's around 2200 in visible points, but he just rattled off a 6-game win streak against all platinum players. In fact, he's been playing almost exclusively platinums for going on a month now. Meanwhile, I'm about 2100 but I play mostly 2600+ players.

So, yes, the promotion system is not logically-oriented.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 17 2011 22:49 GMT
#441
On January 18 2011 04:49 ThorIsHere wrote:
I know someone who was promoted to master's league -- he's around 2200 in visible points, but he just rattled off a 6-game win streak against all platinum players. In fact, he's been playing almost exclusively platinums for going on a month now. Meanwhile, I'm about 2100 but I play mostly 2600+ players.

So, yes, the promotion system is not logically-oriented.


I have doubts that he's been playing mostly plats.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
KillerDucky
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States498 Posts
January 17 2011 23:29 GMT
#442
Just noting some statistics on the league distribution, Blizzard has said it is 2/18/20/20/20 of active players. Here is what sc2ranks has without an activity filter:

http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/us/1/all
Masters   0.6% (  4,050)	
Diamond 7.6% ( 51,754)
Platinum 13.3% ( 90,239)
Gold 16.8% (114,210)
Silver 17.9% (121,544)
Bronze 43.7% (296,338)

And here it is with a 7 day filter:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/us/1/all/7
Masters   3.0% ( 4,010)	
Diamond 13.0% (17,389)
Platinum 11.7% (15,578)
Gold 13.3% (17,709)
Silver 16.8% (22,340)
Bronze 42.2% (56,328)

So this gets us a bit closer but still a huge % of ppl are Bronze. Probably the difference is in the definition of "active". I don't know exactly what sc2ranks uses, but I did see if you play a team game, it includes you in this list which is really only for 1v1. Not sure about custom games.

When there is a full ladder reset we should see these numbers line up closer.
MarineKingPrime Forever!
Crashburn
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States476 Posts
January 17 2011 23:36 GMT
#443
On January 18 2011 07:49 Dionyseus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 04:49 ThorIsHere wrote:
I know someone who was promoted to master's league -- he's around 2200 in visible points, but he just rattled off a 6-game win streak against all platinum players. In fact, he's been playing almost exclusively platinums for going on a month now. Meanwhile, I'm about 2100 but I play mostly 2600+ players.

So, yes, the promotion system is not logically-oriented.


I have doubts that he's been playing mostly plats.


I made a video of it and made a thread here for it, unfortunately the TL mods felt that MMR-type discussions had been done so they deleted it.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 18 2011 00:28 GMT
#444
On January 18 2011 08:36 ThorIsHere wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 07:49 Dionyseus wrote:
On January 18 2011 04:49 ThorIsHere wrote:
I know someone who was promoted to master's league -- he's around 2200 in visible points, but he just rattled off a 6-game win streak against all platinum players. In fact, he's been playing almost exclusively platinums for going on a month now. Meanwhile, I'm about 2100 but I play mostly 2600+ players.

So, yes, the promotion system is not logically-oriented.


I have doubts that he's been playing mostly plats.


I made a video of it and made a thread here for it, unfortunately the TL mods felt that MMR-type discussions had been done so they deleted it.


What's his character name?
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 18 2011 11:31 GMT
#445
On January 18 2011 04:43 darmousseh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.



I actually think it's for a much more simple reason. In wow arena, getting a high MMR ranking means you can earn more points per week which can be used to purchase gear. wow arena is not actually competitive at the lower tiers and like 99% of people do it for fun as a side for when they aren't raiding. Displaying MMR lets them know how they are doing competitively since there are no divisions.


SC2 has no motivation for gaining points other than prestige. You can't purchase new stuff or anything and points are simply for prestige. Because of this, the only possible reward is an arbitrary points system and a tier system. They don't want you to know your MMR so that you don't get discouraged since there are no other rewards.

As far as balance goes, I believe at blizzcon that they said that the balance is specifically designed for the highest tier so that can't be a reason to not display MMR at all.

The points system also encourages people to mass games which otherwise, if you were winning at a 50% win rate, you would be discouraged to do.

Exactly on point in my opinion. That's why Warcraft 3 laddering system was so much better: the level that you had compensate and give you a reward when you play.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 18 2011 20:03 GMT
#446
On January 18 2011 20:31 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 04:43 darmousseh wrote:
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.



I actually think it's for a much more simple reason. In wow arena, getting a high MMR ranking means you can earn more points per week which can be used to purchase gear. wow arena is not actually competitive at the lower tiers and like 99% of people do it for fun as a side for when they aren't raiding. Displaying MMR lets them know how they are doing competitively since there are no divisions.


SC2 has no motivation for gaining points other than prestige. You can't purchase new stuff or anything and points are simply for prestige. Because of this, the only possible reward is an arbitrary points system and a tier system. They don't want you to know your MMR so that you don't get discouraged since there are no other rewards.

As far as balance goes, I believe at blizzcon that they said that the balance is specifically designed for the highest tier so that can't be a reason to not display MMR at all.

The points system also encourages people to mass games which otherwise, if you were winning at a 50% win rate, you would be discouraged to do.

Exactly on point in my opinion. That's why Warcraft 3 laddering system was so much better: the level that you had compensate and give you a reward when you play.


SC2 is a little different in that rather than actually having to grind up to where you need to be, it's more analogous to being promoted to your assigned level in a fraction of the required amount of games. That is, we've seen people in Master league with as few as 40 games played, whereas 40 games played in War3's system even with an ELL of 100 would only get you to like level 10.
Moderator
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
January 18 2011 20:09 GMT
#447
Is it at the point yet where to be promoted to masters league you will be playing master's league players? I'm still playing 2400+ diamond and have fought only a couple master's league
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 20:58:31
January 18 2011 20:44 GMT
#448
On January 19 2011 05:09 confusedcrib wrote:
Is it at the point yet where to be promoted to masters league you will be playing master's league players? I'm still playing 2400+ diamond and have fought only a couple master's league


I'm like 1600 with like 1350 in my bonus pool. I've played about 16 games since the patch, about 9 were against master leaguers and like 7 were against diamond people. I'm like 5-4 against the master leaguers and haven't been promoted yet so if you aren't playing mostly master leaguers I'd guess they probably won't promote you. Obviously I don't know, which is why I said probably.

Should mention my division is god awful so the division modifier probably isn't helping...
Apologize.
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 22:39:08
January 18 2011 22:37 GMT
#449
so uh.... what?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2058907

new top 200 seems totally random, clearly not based on points anymore assuming master divisions have no tiers, but unless mmr changed with promotions it seems pretty unlikely that it's based on mmr either... unless there's some kind of mmr decay that would explain why some very high level players who maybe haven't laddered much lately are so low? i have no idea.

e: look at select, #41 with a ridiculous ratio and he's #8 in the US by points according to sc2ranks. maybe they just totally screwed up.
Zerker
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada201 Posts
January 18 2011 22:50 GMT
#450
On January 19 2011 07:37 god deezy yo wrote:
so uh.... what?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2058907

new top 200 seems totally random, clearly not based on points anymore assuming master divisions have no tiers, but unless mmr changed with promotions it seems pretty unlikely that it's based on mmr either... unless there's some kind of mmr decay that would explain why some very high level players who maybe haven't laddered much lately are so low? i have no idea.

e: look at select, #41 with a ridiculous ratio and he's #8 in the US by points according to sc2ranks. maybe they just totally screwed up.


The list is completely inaccurate if you look at it and say "it's based on MMR" or if you look at it and say "Oh, it's based on points". So the question we got to ask ourselves is this.

If the top 200 isn't based on MMR or Points, What secret formula do they use to get the top 200 list?
Zerker
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada201 Posts
January 18 2011 23:13 GMT
#451
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?
Serendipityx
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States595 Posts
January 18 2011 23:18 GMT
#452
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


The top 200 list is generated a few days earlier than the actual release date of the list on tuesdays though.
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
January 18 2011 23:20 GMT
#453
On January 19 2011 08:18 ChaosTriggeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


The top 200 list is generated a few days earlier than the actual release date of the list on tuesdays though.


says it was generated at 1:30 PST today which is less than 2 hours ago
StateSC2
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)621 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 23:22:30
January 18 2011 23:21 GMT
#454
Yeah, this is confusing me too. Blizzard decided to troll us? ^.^??||

On January 19 2011 08:20 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:18 ChaosTriggeR wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


The top 200 list is generated a few days earlier than the actual release date of the list on tuesdays though.


says it was generated at 1:30 PST today which is less than 2 hours ago


I don't think I've ever been past Avilo.
Fireblast!: "This guy is pointless and wonderful"
Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
January 18 2011 23:22 GMT
#455
It has nothing to do with w:l either seeing how avilo has 73% ratio while tqstate has 54%

Wtf did blizz just do.
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
Vehemus
Profile Joined November 2010
United States586 Posts
January 18 2011 23:23 GMT
#456
On January 19 2011 08:20 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:18 ChaosTriggeR wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


The top 200 list is generated a few days earlier than the actual release date of the list on tuesdays though.


says it was generated at 1:30 PST today which is less than 2 hours ago


Many of the players W/L records listed on the top 200 match their current W/L so this is not outdated or old data being used.

That being said, I have no idea how the hell they arrived at this list but I'm trying to find out. It doesn't appear to have anything to do with unspent bonus pool either.
This space for rent.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 18 2011 23:26 GMT
#457
On January 18 2011 20:31 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2011 04:43 darmousseh wrote:
On January 18 2011 00:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 18 2011 00:32 Zorkmid wrote:
Any idea why Blizzard wouldn't just publish the match making rating? They don't want to hurt our feelings?


Probably because the league system hinges on machine learning. This system, though similar in structure to WoW Arena, relies much more on accurate data due to the individual leagues and how Blizzard chooses to utilize its data for balance purposes. For example, we saw at Blizzcon how they parse race balance by league and aim for equal balance for each league. If MMR was visible, it could potentially throw off numbers and affect player behavior ("oh the Diamond MMR requirement is 2400 so once you hit 2400 MMR go 50-50 for a while until you get promoted!") which could in turn affect statistics that they rely upon for balance decisions.



I actually think it's for a much more simple reason. In wow arena, getting a high MMR ranking means you can earn more points per week which can be used to purchase gear. wow arena is not actually competitive at the lower tiers and like 99% of people do it for fun as a side for when they aren't raiding. Displaying MMR lets them know how they are doing competitively since there are no divisions.


SC2 has no motivation for gaining points other than prestige. You can't purchase new stuff or anything and points are simply for prestige. Because of this, the only possible reward is an arbitrary points system and a tier system. They don't want you to know your MMR so that you don't get discouraged since there are no other rewards.

As far as balance goes, I believe at blizzcon that they said that the balance is specifically designed for the highest tier so that can't be a reason to not display MMR at all.

The points system also encourages people to mass games which otherwise, if you were winning at a 50% win rate, you would be discouraged to do.

Exactly on point in my opinion. That's why Warcraft 3 laddering system was so much better: the level that you had compensate and give you a reward when you play.


Don't make me remind you how much people hated the WC3 ladder system. Your level in WC3 was irrelevant because you could mass games to gain levels, so the only thing that mattered to people was your ratio.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
January 18 2011 23:28 GMT
#458
I think they should implement a system as transparent as the WoW arena one.

MMR was displaced, no division split, etc
random user
Profile Joined December 2010
85 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 23:31:23
January 18 2011 23:28 GMT
#459
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


It's because everyone was reset to the same number when they were promoted to masters (and by the way is a presage of what is to come with the ladder reset.)

Before master's, everyone had played enough games that their MMR was similar to their points (accounting for division offsets). But now someone could have a very high MMR but not have played enough games to get their actual points to their MMR yet. Evidence for this would be if they are still gaining 20+ points per win and only losing 2-5 per loss. As they come closer to their MMR the wins/losses per game will converge closer to 12.

And right now it's impossible to look at total games played, because we don't know how many of those games were before they were promoted to masters and how many were after.

Edit: just looked at TQState and it looks like mostly he's getting normal points, so IDK maybe I'm wrong.
KillerPlague
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1386 Posts
January 18 2011 23:30 GMT
#460
my MMR used to be high enough to make masters (i know because all of my friends in my range made masters in 1 game), but i have not played a 1v1 in 4 weeks. are they still creating masters divisions, or is are they done creating new masters divisions? so when i start playing again can i make masters or do i have to wait for someone to get demoted?
Side 1: Why no dominant players with 90% win ratio Side 2: Nerf Side 1
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 18 2011 23:32 GMT
#461
On January 19 2011 08:28 random user wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


It's because everyone was reset to the same number when they were promoted to masters (and by the way is a presage of what is to come with the ladder reset.)

Before master's, everyone had played enough games that their MMR was similar to their points (accounting for division offsets). But now someone could have a very high MMR but not have played enough games to get their actual points to their MMR yet. Evidence for this would be if they are still gaining 20+ points per win and only losing 2-5 per loss. As they come closer to their MMR the wins/losses per game will converge closer to 12.

And right now it's impossible to look at total games played, because we don't know how many of those games were before they were promoted to masters and how many were after.

Edit: just looked at TQState and it looks like mostly he's getting normal points, so IDK maybe I'm wrong.



If you have the same client as that player you can look up their profile and look through their match history and manually count their games after the patch.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
JDM.s2000
Profile Joined September 2010
United States122 Posts
January 18 2011 23:32 GMT
#462
how is the TOP 200 CALCULATED now
Zerker
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada201 Posts
January 18 2011 23:33 GMT
#463
On January 19 2011 08:28 random user wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:13 Zerker wrote:
Master Division Nahaan Lima
Avilo - 3297 Points, Rank 50 Top 200

Master Division Nahaan Lima
TQState - 3084 Points, Rank 2 Top 200

After seeing this type of data it's unclear to how they generated this list.

They're in the same division yet the person with 200 less points is ranked 2nd on the list. How do we begin to understand something like this?


It's because everyone was reset to the same number when they were promoted to masters (and by the way is a presage of what is to come with the ladder reset.)

Before master's, everyone had played enough games that their MMR was similar to their points (accounting for division offsets). But now someone could have a very high MMR but not have played enough games to get their actual points to their MMR yet. Evidence for this would be if they are still gaining 20+ points per win and only losing 2-5 per loss. As they come closer to their MMR the wins/losses per game will converge closer to 12.

And right now it's impossible to look at total games played, because we don't know how many of those games were before they were promoted to masters and how many were after.

Edit: just looked at TQState and it looks like mostly he's getting normal points, so IDK maybe I'm wrong.


no, they have clearly screwed up on this list they generated somehow.
Vehemus
Profile Joined November 2010
United States586 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 23:37:46
January 18 2011 23:37 GMT
#464
Looking more at this list, REQRookie is 12th on the North American servers according to Blizzard.

But he's 15th in his own division and around 250th in total number of points. He also has a win percentage of under 52%. He has 3 bonus pool. His MMR seems to have returned to pre-patch status as he is winning and losing between 10 and 15 points in almost all of his ladder games.

edit: Not that his MMR has changed, but that his points have caught up to his MMR.
This space for rent.
StateSC2
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)621 Posts
January 18 2011 23:40 GMT
#465
On January 19 2011 08:37 Vehemus wrote:
Looking more at this list, REQRookie is 12th on the North American servers according to Blizzard.

But he's 15th in his own division and around 250th in total number of points. He also has a win percentage of under 52%. He has 3 bonus pool. His MMR seems to have returned to pre-patch status as he is winning and losing between 10 and 15 points in almost all of his ladder games.

edit: Not that his MMR has changed, but that his points have caught up to his MMR.


Rookie's always been a good player. A while ago, he went on tilt and threw a lot of games. His stats are going to be misleading.
Fireblast!: "This guy is pointless and wonderful"
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
January 18 2011 23:40 GMT
#466
On January 19 2011 08:37 Vehemus wrote:
Looking more at this list, REQRookie is 12th on the North American servers according to Blizzard.

But he's 15th in his own division and around 250th in total number of points. He also has a win percentage of under 52%. He has 3 bonus pool. His MMR seems to have returned to pre-patch status as he is winning and losing between 10 and 15 points in almost all of his ladder games.

edit: Not that his MMR has changed, but that his points have caught up to his MMR.


yeah only lord knows how i got #12. i feel like there are atleast 100 other players that are better than me ;/
TL+ Member
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
January 18 2011 23:41 GMT
#467
On January 19 2011 08:40 State wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:37 Vehemus wrote:
Looking more at this list, REQRookie is 12th on the North American servers according to Blizzard.

But he's 15th in his own division and around 250th in total number of points. He also has a win percentage of under 52%. He has 3 bonus pool. His MMR seems to have returned to pre-patch status as he is winning and losing between 10 and 15 points in almost all of his ladder games.

edit: Not that his MMR has changed, but that his points have caught up to his MMR.


Rookie's always been a good player. A while ago, he went on tilt and threw a lot of games. His stats are going to be misleading.


<3
TL+ Member
Vehemus
Profile Joined November 2010
United States586 Posts
January 18 2011 23:44 GMT
#468
Don't get me wrong. Rookie is very good and I watch him on iCCup TV sometimes.

But seeing him as #12 on NA when he is lower in his own division than he is on the entire server seems like the most major outlier I could find by skimming over this list.

I'm not trying to point out that he is a bad player or shouldn't be anywhere on the list. I'm simply trying to find out how this list is being calculated. I am baffled.
This space for rent.
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:00:05
January 18 2011 23:45 GMT
#469
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.
StateSC2
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)621 Posts
January 18 2011 23:45 GMT
#470
Yeah, I have absolutely no idea how this list was generated. I'm really hoping the guys at Sc2ranks can break this one down for us.

Worse than the Da Vinci Code.
Fireblast!: "This guy is pointless and wonderful"
Shadowed
Profile Joined August 2010
United States679 Posts
January 18 2011 23:46 GMT
#471
Excal is looking into it, you guys don't need to panic.
StateSC2
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)621 Posts
January 18 2011 23:48 GMT
#472
Have a time estimate? I'm really curious about what he makes of this.
Fireblast!: "This guy is pointless and wonderful"
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
January 18 2011 23:49 GMT
#473
On January 19 2011 08:46 Shadowed wrote:
Excal is looking into it, you guys don't need to panic.

XD don't worry folks. our people are working on it.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 18 2011 23:59 GMT
#474
Actually we do need to panic because this makes no sense. I already bumped the division tiers thread and updated its OP. We were assured of several things when the Master league was still in development:

- The Master league would not contain separate levels for each division
- The Top 200 is based on points alone without division influences

Now here's what we know about this week's Top 200:

- Inactivity cannot possibly be a factor because 1.2 only came out a week ago
- There are no Diamonds in the NA parse
- There are many many instances of people even in the same division who are not ranked in point order

Blizz Name Record Rating Division
1 vVvRigid 764-618 3095 Argo X-Ray
2 tQState 607-509 3037 Nahaan Lima
3 SlayerSCella 467-310 3134 Defiler Dixie
4 PiQLiQ 1922-1440 3754 Vulture Foxtrot
5 PLZLEAVEDUCK 770-671 3064 Siege Tank Sierra
6 daisuki 351-306 2904 War Pigs Rho
7 tGFrO 1494-1405 3013 Argo X-Ray
8 tQmagnavox 1262-1148 3024 Kaloth Tau
9 iRealEyes 431-373 2970 Artika Uncle
10 Sieg 680-618 2920 Nahaan Lima
11 Despiron 655-582 2639 Argo X-Ray
12 REQRookie 675-623 2840 Tabrenus Zeta
13 ONECrunCher 595-433 3461 Swann Oscar
14 DarkChiGoXPn 759-678 3007 Tabrenus Zeta
15 tQorGETSLAMT 450-362 3047 Moratun Beta
16 tGAndroid 858-723 3050 Zerus Pepper
17 tQsKuLLz 483-396 3007 Templar Alpha
18 Jobless 492-422 2874 Ehlna Chi
19 TerranUApart 915-826 2870 Swann Oscar
20 Perfect 757-644 3231 Alzadar Eta
21 Blackbeard 180-118 3002 Lockwell Mu
22 RaNgeD 1111-966 2961 Tabrenus Zeta
23 SPeCiaLiST 901-779 3184 Templar Alpha
24 tehredbandit 516-432 2982 Zerus Pepper
25 TalorSwftfan 1046-936 3047 Tabrenus Zeta
26 DeAtHRoW 490-319 3149 Routhe Omicron
27 VTFuture 733-646 2860 Zerus Pepper
28 ppgBubbles 1471-1172 3472 Ehlna Chi
29 ExPLiciT 741-659 3050 Defiler Dixie
30 makoplux 688-621 2880 Zekrath Psi
31 NyDGMMA 2146-1987 3049 Lockwell Mu
32 OnixPKM 457-397 2849 Argo X-Ray
33 BoO 701-574 2851 Alzadar Eta
34 RANDY 417-349 2761 Nahaan Lima
35 GRITmadison 1546-1425 2986 Lockwell Mu
36 REQDarkCell 327-252 2782 Moratun Beta
37 ONEAscension 535-452 2951 Zekrath Psi
38 coLGanon 329-248 3010 Moratun Beta
39 FXOmOoNan 805-552 3263 Viking Kappa
40 Tada 689-629 2762 Adun Zed
41 SeleCT 598-224 3328 Routhe Omicron
42 Katari 1743-1088 3433 Templar Alpha
43 NamhciR 522-296 3086 Argo X-Ray
44 Sixto 1089-965 2924 Artika Uncle
45 Mewtwo 985-904 3063 Moratun Beta
46 Baz 1929-1640 3374 Viking Kappa
47 MnMVadar 856-717 3002 Nahaan Lima
48 HasHe 1221-932 3227 Moria Romeo
49 InflowLinko 602-453 3001 Tal'darim Kilo
50 avilo 931-792 3267 Nahaan Lima
51 ReSpOnSe 1055-890 2746 Tabrenus Zeta
52 lalush 192-76 2866 Nahaan Lima
53 YoonYJ 201-138 3099 Siege Tank Sierra
54 StimpsonJCat 679-602 2638 Kaloth Tau
55 Scrubington 546-480 2864 Vulture Foxtrot
56 ThisIsJimmy 762-618 2922 Vulture Foxtrot
57 LGKangwook 680-571 2868 Adun Zed
58 vileEchoic 592-507 3221 Routhe Omicron
59 Kowi 1252-912 3485 Viking Kappa
60 REQSlaineD 711-627 3087 Lockwell Mu
61 tQSpeake 356-288 2607 Routhe Omicron
62 Sterling 386-334 3070 Kaloth Tau
63 ROOTMinigun 266-211 3364 Nahaan Lima
64 FXOpTiKzErO 939-713 3274 Nargil Epsilon
65 coLrsvp 828-671 3355 Viking Kappa
66 AoNe 931-848 2856 Zekrath Psi
67 gli 386-337 2972 Lassatar Pi
68 Pit 861-773 3011 Nahaan Lima
69 Levin 773-589 3140 Siege Tank Sierra
70 SeaNSyE 773-676 2873 Moratun Beta
71 zazen 670-571 2993 Colossus Alamo
72 Ryze 1419-1276 3241 Lockwell Mu
73 ACERGAMEGMMA 2250-2053 3212 Nargil Epsilon
74 Flipaments 323-237 2842 Moratun Beta
75 dinh 487-423 2849 Nargil Epsilon
76 DREAMlegosu 578-517 2828 Routhe Omicron
77 Spanishiwa 434-365 3218 Vulture Foxtrot
78 NadaViKinG 511-400 3049 Kagg Yankee
79 Fan 364-309 3093 Moratun Beta
80 Destiny 1116-999 3155 Moratun Beta
81 TaurosPKM 690-597 2820 Praetor Whiskey
82 EtsurLizzuma 983-885 3136 Kaloth Tau
83 SCAahehoo 1124-1039 2802 Corsair November
84 SiN 838-717 2865 Moria Romeo
85 Xog 992-898 3079 Tal'darim Kilo
86 tGNoStrA 1212-1088 3047 Kaloth Tau
87 OdiN 1088-984 2993 Nahaan Lima
88 BigBadBeaver 1050-952 2848 Routhe Omicron
89 Wannabecool 732-647 3055 Argo X-Ray
90 LGShew 511-446 2960 Nargil Epsilon
91 TOP 854-786 2818 Vulture Foxtrot
92 InflowLooky 1084-950 2917 Nargil Epsilon
93 McLoviN 405-346 2620 Zerus Pepper
94 REQShuffle 259-215 2548 Typhon Hawk
95 Shoey 675-603 2529 Tal'darim Kilo
96 sPsLogiC 1393-1265 3000 Zerus Pepper
97 oov 525-461 2877 Argo X-Ray
98 VTFlow 859-784 2915 Nahaan Lima
99 SilvrSnowXPn 384-333 2883 Templar Alpha
100 Mykill 485-377 2743 Corsair November
101 TriMaster 360-281 2757 Kaloth Tau
102 Hawk 515-423 3158 Siege Tank Sierra
103 vVvTitan 311-195 3051 Alzadar Eta
104 SonKiE 797-722 3120 Tabrenus Zeta
105 NvU 275-203 2557 Braxis Theta
106 ONEGatored 503-407 3115 Kaloth Tau
107 RuFF 1454-1294 3073 Siege Tank Sierra
108 coLFireZerg 578-464 2938 Zerus Pepper
109 VTPokebunny 347-250 2653 Nahaan Lima
110 VTZerker 969-860 3274 Kaloth Tau
111 dambae 250-204 2762 Routhe Omicron
112 SlayerSBoxer 492-404 2928 Tal'darim Kilo
113 KingDime 558-488 2827 Lockwell Mu
114 cFpigtheman 523-465 2816 Moria Romeo
115 lGy 296-232 2874 Nahaan Lima
116 Mian 383-333 2903 Routhe Omicron
117 LiquidTravis 493-446 2907 Ehlna Chi
118 Chronopolis 1062-996 2930 Routhe Omicron
119 NrGdde 439-297 2877 Adun Zed
120 VTAttero 282-196 2978 Moria Romeo
121 LagTTJEcho 734-633 3177 Tabrenus Zeta
122 ONEPerp 169-115 3105 Zerus Pepper
123 MnMEdward 1242-1104 3015 Templar Alpha
124 LGAgh 718-571 2862 Corsair November
125 ROOTCatZ 1165-967 3071 Kaloth Tau
126 ZekoXPn 610-517 2588 Zerus Pepper
127 vVvTime 1294-1152 3105 Kaloth Tau
128 lmaonnaise 198-136 2843 Lockwell Mu
129 ButteryLlama 770-661 2675 War Pigs Rho
130 tQSungpA 967-816 3196 War Pigs Rho
131 MattDamon 1030-918 3014 Templar Alpha
132 BioOrMech 468-401 2982 Moratun Beta
133 coLAntimage 525-418 2985 Viking Kappa
134 BALLERTRON 352-297 2609 Nargil Epsilon
135 NrGViBE 140-78 2945 Colossus Alamo
136 Tenryu 282-232 2930 Viking Kappa
137 Fingo 531-458 3004 Templar Alpha
138 Matrix 587-501 2887 Ehlna Chi
139 BoX 303-253 2894 Argo X-Ray
140 FXOSheth 147-85 2979 Corsair November
141 Deezer 685-604 2705 Praetor Whiskey
142 LGZelniq 1364-1110 3223 Siege Tank Sierra
143 NrGostojiy 592-435 2959 Void Ray Bravo
144 sPsRebuke 815-632 2736 Swann Oscar
145 Domorin 532-468 2882 Kaloth Tau
146 Kangpo 343-279 2774 Moria Romeo
147 tQSadist 313-248 2774 Moratun Beta
148 Dhalism 923-813 2976 Void Ray Bravo
149 kcdc 1597-1501 2966 Tabrenus Zeta
150 Janook 389-306 2787 Kaloth Tau
151 ClassyBear 166-102 2762 Nahaan Lima
152 Raigeki 1217-1154 2582 Argo X-Ray
153 SlayerSBekHo 344-264 2871 Braxis Theta
154 LGenvY 889-757 3160 Lockwell Mu
155 Namkung 430-362 2727 Nargil Epsilon
156 Flashback 696-608 3054 Lockwell Mu
157 tQSwarM 702-639 2880 Tal'darim Kilo
158 WonderBread 352-298 2677 Swann Oscar
159 Sonik 462-394 2891 Templar Alpha
160 Bio 826-755 2902 Tabrenus Zeta
161 bLuR 690-571 2944 Argo X-Ray
162 EGiNcontroL 923-706 2937 Argo X-Ray
163 CombatEX 1144-1038 3107 Ehlna Chi
164 Ikki 620-536 3036 Templar Alpha
165 Drew 472-394 2663 Lockwell Mu
166 dayvie 574-455 2935 Nahaan Lima
167 DracuL 584-523 3004 Siege Tank Sierra
168 InflowYeN 889-738 2906 Tabrenus Zeta
169 tGQwerty 452-391 2886 Zerus Pepper
170 Redds 387-311 2820 Templar Alpha
171 Surge 466-415 2907 Viking Kappa
172 sPsKookiez 428-353 2652 Siege Tank Sierra
173 Roguemonkey 346-299 2732 Argo X-Ray
174 NrGCocoA 706-522 2927 Tabrenus Zeta
175 Sojourner 323-279 2684 Moratun Beta
176 lovemyRM 729-639 2754 Tabrenus Zeta
177 ONEKyhol 752-582 3165 Artika Uncle
178 GoOdy 153-53 2665 Zekrath Psi
179 GreatWestern 185-112 2813 Colossus Alamo
180 TTOne 762-442 2953 Hellion Tango
181 DavidLynch 160-121 3000 Nova Indigo
182 FkcXionS 233-212 2888 Corsair November
183 FaYDe 416-340 2758 Ehlna Chi
184 NOVAstalife 539-366 3122 Routhe Omicron
185 binski 324-263 2678 Tal'darim Kilo
186 EGLzGaMeR 720-575 2880 Templar Alpha
187 sPstoddman 805-663 2738 Alzadar Eta
188 Polar 484-405 2812 Ehlna Chi
189 REQPhiliBiRD 292-225 2830 Tabrenus Zeta
190 Azz 665-571 2954 Nargil Epsilon
191 ScourgeCorp 129-86 2833 Nargil Epsilon
192 Goph 215-144 2639 Praetor Whiskey
193 Bandino 723-628 2522 Siege Tank Sierra
194 ROOTslush 777-489 2962 Argo X-Ray
195 cSOnamu 531-469 2854 Lockwell Mu
196 Magnanimouse 349-277 3138 Void Ray Bravo
197 phantaxx 1260-1147 2789 Lockwell Mu
198 vVvNGry 298-202 2915 Swann Oscar
199 shaNk 418-336 2646 Templar Alpha
200 Pride 356-280 2881 Zerus Pepper
Moderator
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:09:59
January 19 2011 00:09 GMT
#475
i really can't think of any explanations other than

-blizzard fucked up big time generating the list
-we're seeing players ranked by mmr and blizzard's mmr system really, really sucks

what else could be even remotely possible? inactivity is absolutely not part of the equation considering some extremely good players who have been very active that are very low (select, others). divisions or points can't be part of the equation because of some players in the same division being ranked counter to their order in the division. win ratio can't be part of the equation (again, select and many others). what's left? what could it possibly be other than mmr? it seems like even if it was a calculation involving a lot of variables, players like select which seem to be at/near the top of every single possible variable could not possibly be as low as they are.

i thought while writing this that somehow people who had reached their "points equilibrium" after being promoted were benefitting somehow and that might explain part of it? because if you look at select's match history, he's still gaining an assload for each win and losing almost nothing, so he clearly hasn't.. but immediately below him on the top 200 is katari who also has a pretty sick ratio, lots of points, lots of games and it seems he has hit that equilibrium.. so what the fuck is going on? what am i missing?
Proto_Protoss
Profile Joined September 2010
United States495 Posts
January 19 2011 00:14 GMT
#476
Do Master league players play only master leagues or is like every other league?
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up everytime we do." - Confucius
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:24:47
January 19 2011 00:15 GMT
#477
On January 19 2011 08:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually we do need to panic because this makes no sense. I already bumped the division tiers thread and updated its OP. We were assured of several things when the Master league was still in development:

- The Master league would not contain separate levels for each division
- The Top 200 is based on points alone without division influences

Now here's what we know about this week's Top 200:

- Inactivity cannot possibly be a factor because 1.2 only came out a week ago
- There are no Diamonds in the NA parse
- There are many many instances of people even in the same division who are not ranked in point order

Show nested quote +
Blizz Name Record Rating Division
1 vVvRigid 764-618 3095 Argo X-Ray
2 tQState 607-509 3037 Nahaan Lima
3 SlayerSCella 467-310 3134 Defiler Dixie
4 PiQLiQ 1922-1440 3754 Vulture Foxtrot
5 PLZLEAVEDUCK 770-671 3064 Siege Tank Sierra
6 daisuki 351-306 2904 War Pigs Rho
7 tGFrO 1494-1405 3013 Argo X-Ray
8 tQmagnavox 1262-1148 3024 Kaloth Tau
9 iRealEyes 431-373 2970 Artika Uncle
10 Sieg 680-618 2920 Nahaan Lima
11 Despiron 655-582 2639 Argo X-Ray
12 REQRookie 675-623 2840 Tabrenus Zeta
13 ONECrunCher 595-433 3461 Swann Oscar
14 DarkChiGoXPn 759-678 3007 Tabrenus Zeta
15 tQorGETSLAMT 450-362 3047 Moratun Beta
16 tGAndroid 858-723 3050 Zerus Pepper
17 tQsKuLLz 483-396 3007 Templar Alpha
18 Jobless 492-422 2874 Ehlna Chi
19 TerranUApart 915-826 2870 Swann Oscar
20 Perfect 757-644 3231 Alzadar Eta
21 Blackbeard 180-118 3002 Lockwell Mu
22 RaNgeD 1111-966 2961 Tabrenus Zeta
23 SPeCiaLiST 901-779 3184 Templar Alpha
24 tehredbandit 516-432 2982 Zerus Pepper
25 TalorSwftfan 1046-936 3047 Tabrenus Zeta
26 DeAtHRoW 490-319 3149 Routhe Omicron
27 VTFuture 733-646 2860 Zerus Pepper
28 ppgBubbles 1471-1172 3472 Ehlna Chi
29 ExPLiciT 741-659 3050 Defiler Dixie
30 makoplux 688-621 2880 Zekrath Psi
31 NyDGMMA 2146-1987 3049 Lockwell Mu
32 OnixPKM 457-397 2849 Argo X-Ray
33 BoO 701-574 2851 Alzadar Eta
34 RANDY 417-349 2761 Nahaan Lima
35 GRITmadison 1546-1425 2986 Lockwell Mu
36 REQDarkCell 327-252 2782 Moratun Beta
37 ONEAscension 535-452 2951 Zekrath Psi
38 coLGanon 329-248 3010 Moratun Beta
39 FXOmOoNan 805-552 3263 Viking Kappa
40 Tada 689-629 2762 Adun Zed
41 SeleCT 598-224 3328 Routhe Omicron
42 Katari 1743-1088 3433 Templar Alpha
43 NamhciR 522-296 3086 Argo X-Ray
44 Sixto 1089-965 2924 Artika Uncle
45 Mewtwo 985-904 3063 Moratun Beta
46 Baz 1929-1640 3374 Viking Kappa
47 MnMVadar 856-717 3002 Nahaan Lima
48 HasHe 1221-932 3227 Moria Romeo
49 InflowLinko 602-453 3001 Tal'darim Kilo
50 avilo 931-792 3267 Nahaan Lima
51 ReSpOnSe 1055-890 2746 Tabrenus Zeta
52 lalush 192-76 2866 Nahaan Lima
53 YoonYJ 201-138 3099 Siege Tank Sierra
54 StimpsonJCat 679-602 2638 Kaloth Tau
55 Scrubington 546-480 2864 Vulture Foxtrot
56 ThisIsJimmy 762-618 2922 Vulture Foxtrot
57 LGKangwook 680-571 2868 Adun Zed
58 vileEchoic 592-507 3221 Routhe Omicron
59 Kowi 1252-912 3485 Viking Kappa
60 REQSlaineD 711-627 3087 Lockwell Mu
61 tQSpeake 356-288 2607 Routhe Omicron
62 Sterling 386-334 3070 Kaloth Tau
63 ROOTMinigun 266-211 3364 Nahaan Lima
64 FXOpTiKzErO 939-713 3274 Nargil Epsilon
65 coLrsvp 828-671 3355 Viking Kappa
66 AoNe 931-848 2856 Zekrath Psi
67 gli 386-337 2972 Lassatar Pi
68 Pit 861-773 3011 Nahaan Lima
69 Levin 773-589 3140 Siege Tank Sierra
70 SeaNSyE 773-676 2873 Moratun Beta
71 zazen 670-571 2993 Colossus Alamo
72 Ryze 1419-1276 3241 Lockwell Mu
73 ACERGAMEGMMA 2250-2053 3212 Nargil Epsilon
74 Flipaments 323-237 2842 Moratun Beta
75 dinh 487-423 2849 Nargil Epsilon
76 DREAMlegosu 578-517 2828 Routhe Omicron
77 Spanishiwa 434-365 3218 Vulture Foxtrot
78 NadaViKinG 511-400 3049 Kagg Yankee
79 Fan 364-309 3093 Moratun Beta
80 Destiny 1116-999 3155 Moratun Beta
81 TaurosPKM 690-597 2820 Praetor Whiskey
82 EtsurLizzuma 983-885 3136 Kaloth Tau
83 SCAahehoo 1124-1039 2802 Corsair November
84 SiN 838-717 2865 Moria Romeo
85 Xog 992-898 3079 Tal'darim Kilo
86 tGNoStrA 1212-1088 3047 Kaloth Tau
87 OdiN 1088-984 2993 Nahaan Lima
88 BigBadBeaver 1050-952 2848 Routhe Omicron
89 Wannabecool 732-647 3055 Argo X-Ray
90 LGShew 511-446 2960 Nargil Epsilon
91 TOP 854-786 2818 Vulture Foxtrot
92 InflowLooky 1084-950 2917 Nargil Epsilon
93 McLoviN 405-346 2620 Zerus Pepper
94 REQShuffle 259-215 2548 Typhon Hawk
95 Shoey 675-603 2529 Tal'darim Kilo
96 sPsLogiC 1393-1265 3000 Zerus Pepper
97 oov 525-461 2877 Argo X-Ray
98 VTFlow 859-784 2915 Nahaan Lima
99 SilvrSnowXPn 384-333 2883 Templar Alpha
100 Mykill 485-377 2743 Corsair November
101 TriMaster 360-281 2757 Kaloth Tau
102 Hawk 515-423 3158 Siege Tank Sierra
103 vVvTitan 311-195 3051 Alzadar Eta
104 SonKiE 797-722 3120 Tabrenus Zeta
105 NvU 275-203 2557 Braxis Theta
106 ONEGatored 503-407 3115 Kaloth Tau
107 RuFF 1454-1294 3073 Siege Tank Sierra
108 coLFireZerg 578-464 2938 Zerus Pepper
109 VTPokebunny 347-250 2653 Nahaan Lima
110 VTZerker 969-860 3274 Kaloth Tau
111 dambae 250-204 2762 Routhe Omicron
112 SlayerSBoxer 492-404 2928 Tal'darim Kilo
113 KingDime 558-488 2827 Lockwell Mu
114 cFpigtheman 523-465 2816 Moria Romeo
115 lGy 296-232 2874 Nahaan Lima
116 Mian 383-333 2903 Routhe Omicron
117 LiquidTravis 493-446 2907 Ehlna Chi
118 Chronopolis 1062-996 2930 Routhe Omicron
119 NrGdde 439-297 2877 Adun Zed
120 VTAttero 282-196 2978 Moria Romeo
121 LagTTJEcho 734-633 3177 Tabrenus Zeta
122 ONEPerp 169-115 3105 Zerus Pepper
123 MnMEdward 1242-1104 3015 Templar Alpha
124 LGAgh 718-571 2862 Corsair November
125 ROOTCatZ 1165-967 3071 Kaloth Tau
126 ZekoXPn 610-517 2588 Zerus Pepper
127 vVvTime 1294-1152 3105 Kaloth Tau
128 lmaonnaise 198-136 2843 Lockwell Mu
129 ButteryLlama 770-661 2675 War Pigs Rho
130 tQSungpA 967-816 3196 War Pigs Rho
131 MattDamon 1030-918 3014 Templar Alpha
132 BioOrMech 468-401 2982 Moratun Beta
133 coLAntimage 525-418 2985 Viking Kappa
134 BALLERTRON 352-297 2609 Nargil Epsilon
135 NrGViBE 140-78 2945 Colossus Alamo
136 Tenryu 282-232 2930 Viking Kappa
137 Fingo 531-458 3004 Templar Alpha
138 Matrix 587-501 2887 Ehlna Chi
139 BoX 303-253 2894 Argo X-Ray
140 FXOSheth 147-85 2979 Corsair November
141 Deezer 685-604 2705 Praetor Whiskey
142 LGZelniq 1364-1110 3223 Siege Tank Sierra
143 NrGostojiy 592-435 2959 Void Ray Bravo
144 sPsRebuke 815-632 2736 Swann Oscar
145 Domorin 532-468 2882 Kaloth Tau
146 Kangpo 343-279 2774 Moria Romeo
147 tQSadist 313-248 2774 Moratun Beta
148 Dhalism 923-813 2976 Void Ray Bravo
149 kcdc 1597-1501 2966 Tabrenus Zeta
150 Janook 389-306 2787 Kaloth Tau
151 ClassyBear 166-102 2762 Nahaan Lima
152 Raigeki 1217-1154 2582 Argo X-Ray
153 SlayerSBekHo 344-264 2871 Braxis Theta
154 LGenvY 889-757 3160 Lockwell Mu
155 Namkung 430-362 2727 Nargil Epsilon
156 Flashback 696-608 3054 Lockwell Mu
157 tQSwarM 702-639 2880 Tal'darim Kilo
158 WonderBread 352-298 2677 Swann Oscar
159 Sonik 462-394 2891 Templar Alpha
160 Bio 826-755 2902 Tabrenus Zeta
161 bLuR 690-571 2944 Argo X-Ray
162 EGiNcontroL 923-706 2937 Argo X-Ray
163 CombatEX 1144-1038 3107 Ehlna Chi
164 Ikki 620-536 3036 Templar Alpha
165 Drew 472-394 2663 Lockwell Mu
166 dayvie 574-455 2935 Nahaan Lima
167 DracuL 584-523 3004 Siege Tank Sierra
168 InflowYeN 889-738 2906 Tabrenus Zeta
169 tGQwerty 452-391 2886 Zerus Pepper
170 Redds 387-311 2820 Templar Alpha
171 Surge 466-415 2907 Viking Kappa
172 sPsKookiez 428-353 2652 Siege Tank Sierra
173 Roguemonkey 346-299 2732 Argo X-Ray
174 NrGCocoA 706-522 2927 Tabrenus Zeta
175 Sojourner 323-279 2684 Moratun Beta
176 lovemyRM 729-639 2754 Tabrenus Zeta
177 ONEKyhol 752-582 3165 Artika Uncle
178 GoOdy 153-53 2665 Zekrath Psi
179 GreatWestern 185-112 2813 Colossus Alamo
180 TTOne 762-442 2953 Hellion Tango
181 DavidLynch 160-121 3000 Nova Indigo
182 FkcXionS 233-212 2888 Corsair November
183 FaYDe 416-340 2758 Ehlna Chi
184 NOVAstalife 539-366 3122 Routhe Omicron
185 binski 324-263 2678 Tal'darim Kilo
186 EGLzGaMeR 720-575 2880 Templar Alpha
187 sPstoddman 805-663 2738 Alzadar Eta
188 Polar 484-405 2812 Ehlna Chi
189 REQPhiliBiRD 292-225 2830 Tabrenus Zeta
190 Azz 665-571 2954 Nargil Epsilon
191 ScourgeCorp 129-86 2833 Nargil Epsilon
192 Goph 215-144 2639 Praetor Whiskey
193 Bandino 723-628 2522 Siege Tank Sierra
194 ROOTslush 777-489 2962 Argo X-Ray
195 cSOnamu 531-469 2854 Lockwell Mu
196 Magnanimouse 349-277 3138 Void Ray Bravo
197 phantaxx 1260-1147 2789 Lockwell Mu
198 vVvNGry 298-202 2915 Swann Oscar
199 shaNk 418-336 2646 Templar Alpha
200 Pride 356-280 2881 Zerus Pepper

Don't you think it's mainly because master league is so young that some people already get to catch their average point level by playing a lot while some others are still way far from their actual MMR ?
I think the ladder is (for the moment) very shaky and random, it needs something like a month or two to get back to normal
The stats that Top 200 give are misleading since it give the overall game played and not the game played since they are in master league. Someone with 2914 pts with 300/200 and 20/20 since promotion is obviously behind someone with 2700 and 1000-990 but 10/0 since promotion.

Well i'm pretty sure the top 200 formula care about MMR, if not it's a big fail.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
January 19 2011 00:24 GMT
#478
except they reset points with promotion
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
January 19 2011 00:27 GMT
#479
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:31:26
January 19 2011 00:30 GMT
#480
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion

Not MMR. I give you an exemple

Someone (say Y) go to master with say 250-200 and 3200 pts (and a lot of game so his MMR is stable and around 3200), drop to 2300 pts.
X on the other hand, has 990-990 and 3200 pts, and drop to the same 2300 pts.

Well Y play 100 game in his new master league and go from his 250-200 to 300-250 (50% win ratio) and get back to 3000 pts (it's pure theory, don't try to math me to death since i'm not saying it's possible) but since he lost and won, his MMR should not have changed a lot since promotion.
Our dear friend X on the other hand only played 40 game but won 35 and only lost 5. He climb up from his 2300 to 2900, he is still behind Y in point, but obviously his MMR climbed up a lot with his absolute 35 victory and 5 defeat since promotion.

So in top 200, Y(with 300-250 and 3000 pts) is behind X (who has 1025-995 and 2900).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
absolutionsc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States146 Posts
January 19 2011 00:34 GMT
#481
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 19 2011 00:35 GMT
#482
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.
Moderator
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 19 2011 00:38 GMT
#483
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:41:32
January 19 2011 00:39 GMT
#484
On January 19 2011 09:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.


No I mean't like Master league is top 2% or 200 or whatever they were claiming, but with the amount of games I played it's clearly obvious I CANNOT be "Top" of anything. I found it odd that I jumped from Platinum to diamond, then 1 game it took to get into Masters, just wanted to share the story.

Definitely debunks the point system, resetting and all must be irrelevant since I jumped in a single game. I just find it odd that in 30 games the system judged my MMR so high. Sure it's a good winning % but not that difficult with such low games played.
StateSC2
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)621 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:41:30
January 19 2011 00:40 GMT
#485
EDIT: Double-post. Hit "Back" on my browser and accidentally posted the same thing twice. Sorry about that.
Fireblast!: "This guy is pointless and wonderful"
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
January 19 2011 00:43 GMT
#486
On January 19 2011 09:39 Slardar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.


No I mean't like Master league is top 2% or 200 or whatever they were claiming, but with the amount of games I played it's clearly obvious I CANNOT be "Top" of anything. I found it odd that I jumped from Platinum to diamond, then 1 game it took to get into Masters, just wanted to share the story.

Point resetting and all must be irrelevant since I jumped in a single game.


but you AREN'T the "top" of anything, you are not in the top 200. master league is just another league above diamond, and I don't see why you think you shouldn't be in it if you beat multiple masters in a row and went 24-6 probably playing pretty high up players for half of the games because of how fast your mmr goes up (as it should) when you start out with a really good record like that.

would you prefer that your mmr goes up slowly despite winning every game and having to win 100 games to get to your proper level? or do you want it to keep you in plat because you don't have many games played while matching you against master players? what is the alternative you're suggesting?
absolutionsc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States146 Posts
January 19 2011 00:43 GMT
#487
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 19 2011 00:43 GMT
#488
On January 19 2011 09:39 Slardar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.


No I mean't like Master league is top 2% or 200 or whatever they were claiming, but with the amount of games I played it's clearly obvious I CANNOT be "Top" of anything. I found it odd that I jumped from Platinum to diamond, then 1 game it took to get into Masters, just wanted to share the story.

Definitely debunks the point system, resetting and all must be irrelevant since I jumped in a single game. I just find it odd that in 30 games the system judged my MMR so high. Sure it's a good winning % but not that difficult with such low games played.

That's because the system have a hard time figuring, or fixing the level (or MMR) of new account/player. It "needs" something to lower the raising capacities of new accounts or it will continue to be freestyle like it is since the beginning.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 19 2011 00:44 GMT
#489
On January 19 2011 09:39 Slardar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.


No I mean't like Master league is top 2% or 200 or whatever they were claiming, but with the amount of games I played it's clearly obvious I CANNOT be "Top" of anything. I found it odd that I jumped from Platinum to diamond, then 1 game it took to get into Masters, just wanted to share the story.

Definitely debunks the point system, resetting and all must be irrelevant since I jumped in a single game. I just find it odd that in 30 games the system judged my MMR so high. Sure it's a good winning % but not that difficult with such low games played.


The whole intent and design of the system is to get you where you need to be very rapidly. Your promotion status is determined by the quality of opponents that you have faced. If you keep winning against good players, then it puts you against very good players, then top players, all in a very short period of time. It's very common especially if you have only a small number of games played to be rocketed up or down the leagues. There are a bunch of examples of people who have 20, 30, 40 games played who have been promoted into Master league. If your skill proves you deserving of Master league, that's where it will send you, and it won't take hundreds of games for that to happen.
Moderator
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:48:02
January 19 2011 00:46 GMT
#490
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 19 2011 00:48 GMT
#491
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.

Of course it should not, but it is.
MMR can jump quickly when you have a new account, not when you have made like 500 game, because statisticly, going for a 9-0 when you have 12-6 is going from 66,7% win to 77,8% win (huuuuuuuge), while going for a 9-0 when you have 270-230 is going from 54% to 54,8%.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
January 19 2011 00:51 GMT
#492
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


You have no idea what you're talking about. When you went 15-4 your games were most likely played against people of all similar MMR. The person that just started, it's constantly searching to find their MMR. Consequently, it might pair him against a 2400 player, he wins, then a 2700 player, he wins, then a 3,000 player, he wins again, etc. Are you suggesting after you win one game at 2700 it should start matching you vs 3,000 players? No, because it already figured where about you should be.
absolutionsc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States146 Posts
January 19 2011 00:52 GMT
#493
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.
random user
Profile Joined December 2010
85 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 00:56:04
January 19 2011 00:53 GMT
#494
Is it possible to pull historical data to see how many wins/losses they had before they got into masters?

That might shed some light on this.

I'm looking at some info now... not sure if I will find anything...
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 19 2011 00:55 GMT
#495
Let's say Player A and Player B have identical win-loss records of 20-10 and that they started with the same MMR.

If Player A went 4-2, 4-2, 4-2, 4-2, 4-2 while Player B went 15-0, 5-10 they would probably have pretty dramatically different MMR.
Moderator
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
January 19 2011 00:56 GMT
#496
On January 19 2011 09:43 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:39 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:27 Slardar wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:24 forelmashi wrote:
except they reset points with promotion


No they don't read my post. Reposting this cause I just debunked the whole thing incidentally. Excal what do you think about it?

"I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League."


Are you suggesting Master league is the top 200 players? It isn't. Master is the top 2% of active players. Your promotion eligibility is determined by the moving average and stability of your MMR.

And yes your points are reset with promotion to 73 + spent bonus pool.


No I mean't like Master league is top 2% or 200 or whatever they were claiming, but with the amount of games I played it's clearly obvious I CANNOT be "Top" of anything. I found it odd that I jumped from Platinum to diamond, then 1 game it took to get into Masters, just wanted to share the story.

Point resetting and all must be irrelevant since I jumped in a single game.


but you AREN'T the "top" of anything, you are not in the top 200. master league is just another league above diamond, and I don't see why you think you shouldn't be in it if you beat multiple masters in a row and went 24-6 probably playing pretty high up players for half of the games because of how fast your mmr goes up (as it should) when you start out with a really good record like that.

would you prefer that your mmr goes up slowly despite winning every game and having to win 100 games to get to your proper level? or do you want it to keep you in plat because you don't have many games played while matching you against master players? what is the alternative you're suggesting?


I said I'm not the top of anything, yet I'm in the league which Blizzard claims is the top of something. I'm just saying 30 games isn't much of anything, there's people with several hundred who can't get there, it felt like I cheated the system and now I have a hollow Master League tag and it's pissing me off a touch. What I thought was going to happen was I'd need another 20ish games after Diamond(with a good record) to jump to Master.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 19 2011 00:56 GMT
#497
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


Master isn't the same as Grandmaster. It's a lot easier to become a Master in chess than a Grandmaster. There will be a Grandmaster league coming soon.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Zalfor
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States1035 Posts
January 19 2011 00:57 GMT
#498
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.
555, kthxbai
Vehemus
Profile Joined November 2010
United States586 Posts
January 19 2011 01:00 GMT
#499
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


You don't seem to be able to understand the difference between Master league and Grandmaster. There is no Grandmaster league right now, but the Blizzard top 200 list is the closest thing there is to it. You won't be getting in Grandmaster league with 30 games played when it's released.

Master league has thousands of players.
This space for rent.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 01:02:40
January 19 2011 01:01 GMT
#500
On January 19 2011 09:57 Zalfor wrote:
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.


Yeah... It wouldn't take "thousands" of games to be master level in chess if you are strong enough to beat GMs in standard time controls. You'd probably be master after 50 games at most if you played that well.

Besides, everyone knows that division names are there to please casuals. Nobody good is going to think someone is good just because they are in masters league.
www.infinityseven.net
absolutionsc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States146 Posts
January 19 2011 01:03 GMT
#501
On January 19 2011 09:56 Dionyseus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


Master isn't the same as Grandmaster. It's a lot easier to become a Master in chess than a Grandmaster. There will be a Grandmaster league coming soon.

Agree, but for now "Master" is highest level you can achieve in SC.


On January 19 2011 09:57 Zalfor wrote:
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.

Thanks, but you considering me a FM/IM/GM is different than actually being recognized as an FM/IM/GM. I just wish it was a little bit harder to achieve in SC2 in terms of time spent. Like maybe instead of winning against a 2.7mmr and then getting paired with a 3k mmr, you get get paired with a 2.8k mmr next. Oh well.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 19 2011 01:04 GMT
#502
On January 19 2011 09:53 random user wrote:
Is it possible to pull historical data to see how many wins/losses they had before they got into masters?

That might shed some light on this.

I'm looking at some info now... not sure if I will find anything...


There was a Top 200 post last week but I didn't do it because the snapshot was taken around 36 hours before the blog post appeared, causing too much of the data to be inaccurate to be useful. Additionally it didn't contain any Master league data which was useless in light of the fact that everyone's points were reset after promotion anyway.
Moderator
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 01:10:30
January 19 2011 01:09 GMT
#503
On January 19 2011 10:03 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:56 Dionyseus wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


Master isn't the same as Grandmaster. It's a lot easier to become a Master in chess than a Grandmaster. There will be a Grandmaster league coming soon.

Agree, but for now "Master" is highest level you can achieve in SC.


Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:57 Zalfor wrote:
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.

Thanks, but you considering me a FM/IM/GM is different than actually being recognized as an FM/IM/GM. I just wish it was a little bit harder to achieve in SC2 in terms of time spent. Like maybe instead of winning against a 2.7mmr and then getting paired with a 3k mmr, you get get paired with a 2.8k mmr next. Oh well.

so you want the ladder to be more of a grind than it already is? i don't understand why someone should have to spend 100 games playing their way up the ranks if they're already at a high skill level. if anything your analogy points to a flaw in the chess rating system rather than starcraft's. the difference is that in chess you only get one "account" and no one really starts off as a master level player, so it's not relevant. starcraft is different.
absolutionsc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States146 Posts
January 19 2011 01:15 GMT
#504
On January 19 2011 10:09 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 10:03 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:56 Dionyseus wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


Master isn't the same as Grandmaster. It's a lot easier to become a Master in chess than a Grandmaster. There will be a Grandmaster league coming soon.

Agree, but for now "Master" is highest level you can achieve in SC.


On January 19 2011 09:57 Zalfor wrote:
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.

Thanks, but you considering me a FM/IM/GM is different than actually being recognized as an FM/IM/GM. I just wish it was a little bit harder to achieve in SC2 in terms of time spent. Like maybe instead of winning against a 2.7mmr and then getting paired with a 3k mmr, you get get paired with a 2.8k mmr next. Oh well.

so you want the ladder to be more of a grind than it already is? i don't understand why someone should have to spend 100 games playing their way up the ranks if they're already at a high skill level. if anything your analogy points to a flaw in the chess rating system rather than starcraft's. the difference is that in chess you only get one "account" and no one really starts off as a master level player, so it's not relevant. starcraft is different.


I don't wholly disagree. But in WoW, I don't become level 80 in an hour just because I know the tricks to every raid boss in the game. Different game type, but still. Sometimes the "grind" is part of the journey to get to the top level. I'm not saying it should take 500 games, but *IMO* it should take a lot more than 30.
ZealotMaster
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom15 Posts
January 19 2011 01:56 GMT
#505
Unfortunately, there are no prizes in SC2 for "effort". Nor do I see why there should be. If someone who has played 50 games consistently defeats another who has played 1000 games, should we not consider the 50-game player more skilled? I don't think the criteria for promotion should be based on number of games. Rather it should be based on the required number of games to reliably assign a skill rating (as appears to be the system in fact used by Blizzard).

As to how the system can "confidently" promote a person to "Master" after only 30 games, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_power (and related links). One can, in certain circumstances, be highly confident about a result with a sample size as small as 20.

Tom.806@SEA and EU (GM Protoss)
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 19 2011 02:01 GMT
#506
On January 19 2011 10:15 absolutionsc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 10:09 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 10:03 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:56 Dionyseus wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:52 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:46 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:43 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:38 WhiteDog wrote:
On January 19 2011 09:34 absolutionsc wrote:
On January 19 2011 08:45 Slardar wrote:
I got into Masters League with approximately 30 games. 24-6. I can't be top 200 of anything with that amount of games played.

I did beat 3 Master League players in a row though(I believe) It's obviously basing it off your hidden MMR, not actual points. I was in Platinum League, I won a single game --> Diamond. Played another right after, won it, straight into Master League.


No offense to you, but to me this screams "broken matchmaking system". Two games to go from plat to master is a joke. On the other hand, I had over 500 games played and was around 2.7k diamond, won 15 of 19 games, and still wasn't promoted. It actually doesn't surprise me that the top 200 is totally freaking screwed up. Something is wrong with the entire system right now in my opinion.

By the way, I'm saying this AFTER I finally got to Master league, so it's not just me complaining.

Well, this MMR system need you to play a lot so that your MMR become stable. Someone like you, with 500 games and a good diamond rating is "fixed" statisticly and your MMR doesn't change a lot from a game to another, the match making system can match you with player that are close to you, and so a loss or a win is not much. On the other side, someone with 24-6 has a MMR that goes russian mountains after each loss.


I understand MMR, but it simply shouldn't be possible for someone with under 30 games to get to Master's league. Also, you're implying that someone with 23 wins had a higher MMR than a 2.7k diamond player, which shouldn't be possible in my opinion. If MMR could jump that quickly, my 15-4 streak should have put me in Master league easily. Broken shit.


again, why the fuck shouldn't they? how many games should you need to play beating master level players before it promotes you? why should there be some lower bound of games played if you're clearly of that skill level

and no, when you already have over 500 games played a 15-4 streak should not make your mmr jump that much, because chances are you didn't get twice as good at starcraft 2 overnight, you just had a good little streak. it's not broken whatsoever (in this situation at least). if someone goes 23-0, playing people with an mmr much higher than 2.7k (which they would be, because your mmr goes up fucking fast starting out!) then of course he should have a higher mmr than a 2.7k diamond player. think before you post.

going 24-6 is much better than going 15-4 regardless, even without considering the fact that the 26-4 player was playing much higher level opponents


I did, and apparently I disagree with how the system works. There's not nearly as much...i donno "exclusivity" in a Master league when someone can achieve it in a couple hours. I know this isn't Chess, but humor me for a second: if I come out of nowhere and beat 3 chess GMs in a row, that does not (and should not) make me a GM. I'd have to work my way through thousands of games and many tournaments to have a chance. In chess, achieving GM means something. In SC, it means very little. You could get lucky with a few cannon rushes and become a "Master" which just tarnishes the title in my opinion.


Master isn't the same as Grandmaster. It's a lot easier to become a Master in chess than a Grandmaster. There will be a Grandmaster league coming soon.

Agree, but for now "Master" is highest level you can achieve in SC.


On January 19 2011 09:57 Zalfor wrote:
if u came out of nowhere and beat 3-4 chess grand masters in a row, i will consider you of at least master level strength.

Thanks, but you considering me a FM/IM/GM is different than actually being recognized as an FM/IM/GM. I just wish it was a little bit harder to achieve in SC2 in terms of time spent. Like maybe instead of winning against a 2.7mmr and then getting paired with a 3k mmr, you get get paired with a 2.8k mmr next. Oh well.

so you want the ladder to be more of a grind than it already is? i don't understand why someone should have to spend 100 games playing their way up the ranks if they're already at a high skill level. if anything your analogy points to a flaw in the chess rating system rather than starcraft's. the difference is that in chess you only get one "account" and no one really starts off as a master level player, so it's not relevant. starcraft is different.


I don't wholly disagree. But in WoW, I don't become level 80 in an hour just because I know the tricks to every raid boss in the game. Different game type, but still. Sometimes the "grind" is part of the journey to get to the top level. I'm not saying it should take 500 games, but *IMO* it should take a lot more than 30.


WoW and SC2 are two very different games. Grinding in MMORPG's is pretty much essential so that the company that makes them can continue getting the $15 a month from the subscription service.

If your skill level can be determined in 30 games, why not? Why should you play a lot more than 30 games for the system to determine your skill level when it can do it in under 30 games?

If I were the greatest player in SC2, what difference would it be if I only played 30 games on my new account or hundreds? Seems logical that if I go 30-0 against the best in the server I should be placed in the top league.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 02:04:29
January 19 2011 02:02 GMT
#507
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 19 2011 02:06 GMT
#508
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.
Moderator
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15547 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 02:12:05
January 19 2011 02:10 GMT
#509
YOU DO NOT NEED A LOT OF GAMES PLAYED TO GET INTO MASTER LEAGUE

I hear some people saying that you need to be really active or something, but a guy in my master league division is 24-7, so it doesn't exactly take a ton of games. I really feel like the big issue here is that so many people think they are better than they really are. They see their big point score (massed a ton of games) and think they are top players. That's the problem with the SC2 ladder

edit: edited post to bring clarity to main point.
ZealotMaster
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom15 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 02:18:22
January 19 2011 02:17 GMT
#510
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


The thing about a small sample size is that additional "units" will very quickly change the overall picture. In the situation you describe, if they went on to lose consistently in the next 30 games, I infer their MMR would decrease quickly and they would be demoted [Edit: as Excalibur_Z quite rightly states above].

Trickier would be if this same person "fluked" one game with the cheese, were promoted, and then stopped laddering. In this case, they would lurk somewhere as the bottom of their Master division. I personally don't see this as a problem for two reasons. Firstly, the "inactive-undeserving-Master" would not "take up" a spot in Masters from a more deserving player, as the Master population is based on a % of active players. Secondly, as with Diamond, the players who played 30 or so games, got diamond and stopped were never really taken seriously anyway.
Tom.806@SEA and EU (GM Protoss)
summoner503
Profile Joined September 2010
Greece30 Posts
January 19 2011 02:29 GMT
#511
2790 diamond here

i do win streaks against master league players and 2800+ diamonds all day and i lose even like 15 pts against them so i assume i got high mmr and i dont get the promote, can anyone explain me why is this happening? is it probably because i didnt play for 1 month and the system consider me inactive and if that so when the system consider u active?
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15547 Posts
January 19 2011 02:51 GMT
#512
On January 19 2011 11:29 summoner503 wrote:
2790 diamond here

i do win streaks against master league players and 2800+ diamonds all day and i lose even like 15 pts against them so i assume i got high mmr and i dont get the promote, can anyone explain me why is this happening? is it probably because i didnt play for 1 month and the system consider me inactive and if that so when the system consider u active?

I hadn't played for 2 weeks when I was promoted. I logged in after 2 weeks, played 1 game, promoted.
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 19 2011 03:00 GMT
#513
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.
Apologize.
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
January 19 2011 04:04 GMT
#514
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 19 2011 04:30 GMT
#515
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.
vradovic
Profile Joined September 2008
United States293 Posts
January 19 2011 04:54 GMT
#516
Is there anyone who demote from master to diamond?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 19 2011 05:22 GMT
#517
On January 19 2011 13:54 vradovic wrote:
Is there anyone who demote from master to diamond?


Yes. Don't ask me who, but there is more than 1 already.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 19 2011 05:22 GMT
#518
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.

That's correct, but then the player can just be inactive and keep the Master League icon. I just feel that for someone to consider themselves a good player, they need to continually prove themselves. A way around this I guess is for inactive players to get demoted, but I'm not sure if Blizzard will do that.
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 14:17:36
January 19 2011 14:06 GMT
#519
Does anyone think that over time it will become much more difficult to get into master league as casual players drop off?

2% of players will represent an absolute number that is much smaller in the future.

Is there any evidence that players with 10 or less ladder games get permanent MMRs? Will these only be reset when the ladder does?
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 19 2011 15:08 GMT
#520
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 16:14:25
January 19 2011 16:13 GMT
#521
On January 20 2011 00:08 Alphasquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers


there is not a limited number of slots in master, and judging by the current trends it will be the most active of all leagues.
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
January 19 2011 16:19 GMT
#522
On January 20 2011 01:13 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 00:08 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers


there is not a limited number of slots in master, and judging by the current trends it will be the most active of all leagues.


i thought its limited to 2% of all players (accounts)
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
January 19 2011 16:39 GMT
#523
On January 20 2011 01:19 Alphasquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 01:13 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 20 2011 00:08 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers


there is not a limited number of slots in master, and judging by the current trends it will be the most active of all leagues.


i thought its limited to 2% of all players (accounts)


he means there is not hard cap of X players. It's %-based; that means the more players there are, the more that get into master's league. So people who idle in master's league won't be "blocking spots".

Although it does seem lame that people can just get into master's league then stop playing without being demoted.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-19 16:41:57
January 19 2011 16:40 GMT
#524
On January 20 2011 01:19 Alphasquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 01:13 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 20 2011 00:08 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers


there is not a limited number of slots in master, and judging by the current trends it will be the most active of all leagues.


i thought its limited to 2% of all players (accounts)

no, just like bronze/silver/gold/plat aren't "limited" to 20% of players, master league isn't "limited" to 2% of players. the mmr requirement is just such that roughly 2% of active players will be promoted to it. there will always be a slot open if you hit the mmr requirement to be promoted. it's nothing but another league on top of diamond that's a little more exclusive than the rest, there is really nothing special about it like player limits.
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
January 19 2011 16:42 GMT
#525
On January 19 2011 11:10 Mohdoo wrote:
They see their big point score (massed a ton of games) and think they are top players. That's the problem with the SC2 ladder


That is the biggest problem with sc2 ladder, most people fail to understand that a game between a 2000pts diamond and a 1700 pts diamond can be higher in terms of skills and MMR than a game betwwen two 3000 pts diamonds.

I don't blame it on people, those who don't read forums and thread like those only see the list in their ladder profile and think "I'm ranked #4, I'm way better than this #47 guy."

I still think the most logical way to settle this would be to put all masters in one division, reset all pts to 0 and get rid of the bonus pool. But I can still dream...

In other news, the top 200 seems to be based on MMR rather than points which is great, if they could update their formula so that points reflect MMR as close as possible we might see the light soon. Biggest problem is still the bonus pool imo.
Brood War is forever
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 19 2011 17:57 GMT
#526
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.
Apologize.
JamesSwift
Profile Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
January 19 2011 20:12 GMT
#527
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).
你好
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 19 2011 20:14 GMT
#528
On January 20 2011 05:12 JamesSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).


if you read the ladder analysis articles you would know this isn't true
Chrysalis.145
JamesSwift
Profile Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 00:55:18
January 20 2011 00:35 GMT
#529
On January 20 2011 05:14 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 05:12 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).


if you read the ladder analysis articles you would know this isn't true

if you read the interview with blizzard employees (browder I think?) you would know that it is
EDIT: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hPA3rfOQqw0J:g4mr.net/Blizzard%20Transcript.txt http://g4mr.net/Blizzard%20Transcript.txt&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
"Guest-48: Concerning the ladder promotions system, what further clarity can you provide to us on exactly how this works? I've heard that it works based on some sort of interval system, if so, what sort of intervals? I think many people feel left in the dark on how this works and might like a 'progress bar' for promotions or something similar.
DustinB: The Battle.Net team has been hard at work on this system throughout Beta-1 and Beta-2. It does currently check every so often to see that you are in the right league. I don't know what the current times are that it checks. I know they are talking about doing some updates to those checks so that they happen more often."
你好
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 20 2011 00:45 GMT
#530
On January 20 2011 09:35 JamesSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 05:14 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
On January 20 2011 05:12 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).


if you read the ladder analysis articles you would know this isn't true

if you read the interview with blizzard employees (browder I think?) you would know that it is


Well we've proven that this isn't the case because people have been promoted in 10 games or less. My first analysis thread actually directly referenced that Best Buy livechat with Dustin Browder where he cited 30 games before a promotion, but that was corrected once we found conflicting evidence.

That doesn't mean he was lying, though. Remember that when that live chat took place, the beta was still going on and they were still several weeks out from release. Maybe the system changed and they instead chose to take promotions on a more granular level. Maybe the 30-game requirement only applied in the initial week or two of the ladder, when the league separations weren't very well established. There are many possibilities, but we know that's not how it works presently.
Moderator
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
January 20 2011 00:58 GMT
#531
On January 20 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:

Well we've proven that this isn't the case because people have been promoted in 10 games or less. My first analysis thread actually directly referenced that Best Buy livechat with Dustin Browder where he cited 30 games before a promotion, but that was corrected once we found conflicting evidence.

That doesn't mean he was lying, though. Remember that when that live chat took place, the beta was still going on and they were still several weeks out from release. Maybe the system changed and they instead chose to take promotions on a more granular level. Maybe the 30-game requirement only applied in the initial week or two of the ladder, when the league separations weren't very well established. There are many possibilities, but we know that's not how it works presently.


Also, there is strong available evidence that promotion / demotion is determined by skynet.

Also I don't think Dustin Browder micro-manages everything so if there was a decision that through testing it was 99% accurate in some specific cases after 10 games, then that's fine. But placement was totally different at different points in beta. In early beta you could get placed straight into platinum (diamond now) after 5 games, then at some point later it became impossible and always took more games. As for league placement algorithms, that could even be changed on the fly without much visibility to the user as long as the MMR behind it stays with the same formula.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 20 2011 01:07 GMT
#532
On January 20 2011 09:58 MorefaSho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:

Well we've proven that this isn't the case because people have been promoted in 10 games or less. My first analysis thread actually directly referenced that Best Buy livechat with Dustin Browder where he cited 30 games before a promotion, but that was corrected once we found conflicting evidence.

That doesn't mean he was lying, though. Remember that when that live chat took place, the beta was still going on and they were still several weeks out from release. Maybe the system changed and they instead chose to take promotions on a more granular level. Maybe the 30-game requirement only applied in the initial week or two of the ladder, when the league separations weren't very well established. There are many possibilities, but we know that's not how it works presently.


Also, there is strong available evidence that promotion / demotion is determined by skynet.

Also I don't think Dustin Browder micro-manages everything so if there was a decision that through testing it was 99% accurate in some specific cases after 10 games, then that's fine. But placement was totally different at different points in beta. In early beta you could get placed straight into platinum (diamond now) after 5 games, then at some point later it became impossible and always took more games. As for league placement algorithms, that could even be changed on the fly without much visibility to the user as long as the MMR behind it stays with the same formula.


One thing that we theorized that may be true is that it probably has a good idea of where you belong, but it intentionally places you one league below that. That would explain nobody being able to place in Diamond (though with 1.2, you can now) and how quickly the first promotion tends to occur.
Moderator
JamesSwift
Profile Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
January 20 2011 15:26 GMT
#533
My comment was not regarding initial placement, but rather was regarding promtion/demotion after placement (for all those saying 'how many games do I have to win' etc..) It seems to me that the system does work on a milestone principle where it checks for your promotion/demotion eligibility every so often rather than after every game. If you have a lot of games (and thus you are likely to have a stable MMR) then it will check more sporadically than if you have fewer games (and thus a more dynamic MMR). Browder's comments seem to support that (the milestone bit at least).
你好
vanick
Profile Joined August 2010
United States53 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 16:12:00
January 20 2011 16:08 GMT
#534
On January 21 2011 00:26 JamesSwift wrote:
My comment was not regarding initial placement, but rather was regarding promtion/demotion after placement (for all those saying 'how many games do I have to win' etc..) It seems to me that the system does work on a milestone principle where it checks for your promotion/demotion eligibility every so often rather than after every game. If you have a lot of games (and thus you are likely to have a stable MMR) then it will check more sporadically than if you have fewer games (and thus a more dynamic MMR). Browder's comments seem to support that (the milestone bit at least).

We know there is no hard game minimum for promotions. We have several examples of people being promoted with less than 10 games played. After looking at a histogram of promotions by games played which has a large spike after peoples' MMR generally stabilizes there is a nice smooth curve after that. With periodic checkpoints we would see clustered promotions/demotions beyond the initial spike that is expected to occur because of the conservative league placement system. Based on this, and inferences from information received at Blizzcon we're confident that a checkpoint system is not used.

We definitely considered that there may be one early checkpoint to double check the league placement, but the evidence we have points to an algorithm that re-evaluates after each game you play regardless.
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 20 2011 16:14 GMT
#535
On January 20 2011 01:40 god deezy yo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 01:19 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 20 2011 01:13 god deezy yo wrote:
On January 20 2011 00:08 Alphasquad wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 19 2011 11:02 Azzur wrote:
I agree there should be at least a minimum number of games criteria. If someone wants to be considered a good player, they should be made to prove themselves continually, rather than hitting one good streak and then not playing again (to maintain their master league status).

For instance, there is no indication of how a person got their MMR for their first 30 games. They could've cheese heavily during the first week (when no one knew how to play) and hence got a good MMR. They have not proven themselves over a longer period of time.


That's not a concern because if the player remains active, he would just get demoted if he failed to maintain that level of performance over a longer period of time.


and if they dont continue playing they will stay in there forever and block spots and god i would be really really surprised if this wont happen in large numbers


there is not a limited number of slots in master, and judging by the current trends it will be the most active of all leagues.


i thought its limited to 2% of all players (accounts)

no, just like bronze/silver/gold/plat aren't "limited" to 20% of players, master league isn't "limited" to 2% of players. the mmr requirement is just such that roughly 2% of active players will be promoted to it. there will always be a slot open if you hit the mmr requirement to be promoted. it's nothing but another league on top of diamond that's a little more exclusive than the rest, there is really nothing special about it like player limits.


I don't know what an active player is and I think that this definition could change everything.

If an active player is someone with less than 50% unspent bonus pool, than that means that someone that plays every week, 3-5 games would forever be considered "inactive". That is huge, cause that would explain why we have 50+% of our players at bronze and why it seems that so many people do get better but can't get promoted out of bronze.

My hipothesys is this:

Let's say we have 100 active playes (players that play almost everyday and have little bonus pool) and we also have 200 inactive players (players that do play once or twice a week more or less, with a huge bonus pool).

The skill level of these 100 active players would dictate the bondaries of the leagues.

The MMR of the 2th best active player would be the minimum MMR require to be on master, the MMR os the 80th best active player would be the minimun MMR required to be on silver.

Than let's say that of the 200 inactive players, 100 would have a MMR lower than the 80th active player. They would all be in bronze and we'd have almost 50% of the total population on bronze.

So, the active players "skill" will define the requirements on "skill" to be on certain leagues, but there would be no limite for players to be on certain leagues.

So we will have 2% of the active players on masters, 20% of them on bronze, but the inactive players could be 0,1% on masters and 60% on bronze.

I love to make hipothesys, sorry if that seems wrong or confuse, but I do think it works more or less like this.
JamesSwift
Profile Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
January 20 2011 20:24 GMT
#536
On January 21 2011 01:08 vanick wrote:
We know there is no hard game minimum for promotions. We have several examples of people being promoted with less than 10 games played. After looking at a histogram of promotions by games played which has a large spike after peoples' MMR generally stabilizes there is a nice smooth curve after that. With periodic checkpoints we would see clustered promotions/demotions beyond the initial spike that is expected to occur because of the conservative league placement system. Based on this, and inferences from information received at Blizzcon we're confident that a checkpoint system is not used.

We definitely considered that there may be one early checkpoint to double check the league placement, but the evidence we have points to an algorithm that re-evaluates after each game you play regardless.

Do you have a link to the histogram you mention?
你好
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 18:14:53
January 21 2011 18:13 GMT
#537
On January 21 2011 05:24 JamesSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 01:08 vanick wrote:
We know there is no hard game minimum for promotions. We have several examples of people being promoted with less than 10 games played. After looking at a histogram of promotions by games played which has a large spike after peoples' MMR generally stabilizes there is a nice smooth curve after that. With periodic checkpoints we would see clustered promotions/demotions beyond the initial spike that is expected to occur because of the conservative league placement system. Based on this, and inferences from information received at Blizzcon we're confident that a checkpoint system is not used.

We definitely considered that there may be one early checkpoint to double check the league placement, but the evidence we have points to an algorithm that re-evaluates after each game you play regardless.

Do you have a link to the histogram you mention?


It was posted in the Ladder Analysis Part 2 thread:

[image loading]

[image loading]

A more updated one:

[image loading]
Moderator
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 18:46:26
January 21 2011 18:46 GMT
#538
Does anyone have any information on anyone being demoted from masters to diamond? I know someone said that it's happened, but I'm curious just how bad I have to do after getting promoted to get demoted...
Apologize.
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
January 21 2011 20:39 GMT
#539
From my experience, Diamond players seem to be better than Master players in the ladder, has anyone else experienced this?
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
cive
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada370 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 20:57:53
January 21 2011 20:56 GMT
#540
On January 22 2011 05:39 Disastorm wrote:
From my experience, Diamond players seem to be better than Master players in the ladder, has anyone else experienced this?


Like many above us said, Master league is nothing special.

Just like there are plats that may be better than the bottom diamonds, I'm sure there is a gray area between the master league and the diamond league.

I've never played a plat that plays like a good diamond or a diamond player that i thought should be a master league player. I think things would be more clear if you explain your situation. Maybe you are a good diamond getting tested vs. master league players or you are the master league player testing out the "to-be-promoted" diamond players.
Play Terran
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 20:59:52
January 21 2011 20:57 GMT
#541
I was in a pretty dumb mood last night and looking for a T opponent so I could practice a new opening. None of my T buddies were online, so I resorted to joining games and leaving immediately if it wasn't a Terran.

Wouldn't you know it, last night of all nights, I played a whole 3 Terrans in about 30 matches.

I started at 2500pts in master (ranked ~40th in my division), and I FINALLY got demoted to Diamond at the end of the night... Though surprisingly I had only made it down to about 65th place...

Demotion is possible, but takes a lot from what I can tell =p
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
random user
Profile Joined December 2010
85 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 22:49:48
January 21 2011 22:49 GMT
#542
On January 22 2011 05:56 cive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2011 05:39 Disastorm wrote:
From my experience, Diamond players seem to be better than Master players in the ladder, has anyone else experienced this?


Like many above us said, Master league is nothing special.

Just like there are plats that may be better than the bottom diamonds, I'm sure there is a gray area between the master league and the diamond league.

I've never played a plat that plays like a good diamond or a diamond player that i thought should be a master league player. I think things would be more clear if you explain your situation. Maybe you are a good diamond getting tested vs. master league players or you are the master league player testing out the "to-be-promoted" diamond players.


This is especially true for diamonds and plats at the moment if you take a step back and realize that any plat who gets promoted to diamond is going to be promoted in at about 2450 today (if they've used all of their bonus pool). This means that if you take a plat player who is just a couple games away from promotion, they are probably significantly better than a 2200-2300 diamond player who has used up all of their bonus pool (assuming they are in the same tier).
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
January 21 2011 22:53 GMT
#543
On January 20 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 09:35 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 05:14 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
On January 20 2011 05:12 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).


if you read the ladder analysis articles you would know this isn't true

if you read the interview with blizzard employees (browder I think?) you would know that it is


Well we've proven that this isn't the case because people have been promoted in 10 games or less. My first analysis thread actually directly referenced that Best Buy livechat with Dustin Browder where he cited 30 games before a promotion, but that was corrected once we found conflicting evidence.

That doesn't mean he was lying, though. Remember that when that live chat took place, the beta was still going on and they were still several weeks out from release. Maybe the system changed and they instead chose to take promotions on a more granular level. Maybe the 30-game requirement only applied in the initial week or two of the ladder, when the league separations weren't very well established. There are many possibilities, but we know that's not how it works presently.


whats going on with the top200 ?
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Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 21 2011 23:13 GMT
#544
On January 22 2011 07:53 desrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 20 2011 09:35 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 05:14 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
On January 20 2011 05:12 JamesSwift wrote:
On January 20 2011 02:57 Neo.NEt wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:30 SDream wrote:
On January 19 2011 13:04 Subversion wrote:
On January 19 2011 12:00 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well I just got promoted to master league hurray for me. I was 84-53 with like 1680 and like 1140 in my bonus pool in the lowest class division on imaginable. I was top 20 with like 1200 points right before the patch came out... maybe that's a reference point for some of you other guys.


woah u were only 1700 point diamond? :O and u got into masters?

thats weird, i just have no idea how to know how close/far i am for masters.

are there any indicators as to how i know if i may be getting close to promotion?


Yeap, look at your opponents league. If 50% of them is on master, than you are really close. If 100% of them are on master, then you are there already most likely. If 10% of them are on master, then you are probably close and could actually get in soon, or never.



About half of the guys I played post patch were master, the last one was diamond though so it's not like you have a "final boss" master league guy standing in your way. That's probably a good way to look at it.

Keep in mind that promotions (especially with a fair amount of games played already) are determined at checkpoints. So you aren't being considered for promotion after every single game, but rather after every x-th game (unknown number, and probably gets larger as your MMR is more settled, i.e. as you play more).


if you read the ladder analysis articles you would know this isn't true

if you read the interview with blizzard employees (browder I think?) you would know that it is


Well we've proven that this isn't the case because people have been promoted in 10 games or less. My first analysis thread actually directly referenced that Best Buy livechat with Dustin Browder where he cited 30 games before a promotion, but that was corrected once we found conflicting evidence.

That doesn't mean he was lying, though. Remember that when that live chat took place, the beta was still going on and they were still several weeks out from release. Maybe the system changed and they instead chose to take promotions on a more granular level. Maybe the 30-game requirement only applied in the initial week or two of the ladder, when the league separations weren't very well established. There are many possibilities, but we know that's not how it works presently.


whats going on with the top200 ?


It's using a different calculation this week that we still haven't figured out. At first it was incorrectly being sorted by spent bonus pool, and it's since been updated with a new list. We still don't know how it's being ranked, but supposedly it has something to do with bonus pool as related to points.
Moderator
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
January 21 2011 23:29 GMT
#545
I had 124-106 with 1800 something

Lost a game. Won a game and went into master league ^^ I did not expect it but when I think about it almost all the players I played had a lot highter rating and more games played. This is still true I have not played anyone with less then 2000 while I have 1600
CitizenTrust
Profile Joined August 2010
United States16 Posts
January 23 2011 18:28 GMT
#546
finally promoted. was 2600-2700 rank #5 dia at patch, all 4 above me were promoted. i was #1 with ~2900 points when promoted and landed at rank #5 2479 in Phoenix XI. was bouncing games between players in master and diamond. last 3 games including promo were diamond players.
myspace.com/citizentrustband
semajwd
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada36 Posts
January 23 2011 18:35 GMT
#547
#1 Ranking Diamond 2824 rating, still no promotion and I've constantly beat master/2500+ diamonds
so...im not sure why my MMR Is so low but we shall see how long it takes, i've played over 100games in a week.
...................Infamous Immortal Socrates ;) http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4558230
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
January 23 2011 20:07 GMT
#548
On January 24 2011 03:35 semajwd wrote:
#1 Ranking Diamond 2824 rating, still no promotion and I've constantly beat master/2500+ diamonds
so...im not sure why my MMR Is so low but we shall see how long it takes, i've played over 100games in a week.


How many games had you played in the previous week? Perhaps it still hasn't registered you as an "active" player and also you may be waiting for your check in to get promoted since the system checks at irregular intervals after all.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
random user
Profile Joined December 2010
85 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-23 20:19:53
January 23 2011 20:13 GMT
#549
If anyone is curious, here are some (but nowhere near all) players that were promoted in the last 36 hours or so. It's tracking mostly only those people who have a lot of points in diamond.

~12-36ish hrs ago:

+ Show Spoiler +

Name, Old Points, Old W-L, Old Position, New Rank, New W-L
dorachan, 2,905, 348 - 312, 5, 003 master, 360 - 322
Kerensky, 2,898, 235 - 220, 7, 014 master, 240 - 222
Aeronys, 2,871, 322 - 271, 11, 002 master, 329 - 274
nemo, 2,871, 373 - 331, 11, 011 master, 379 - 337
LaGTTinSighT, 2,868, 369 - 338, 13, 019 master, 370 - 340
kiddin, 2,862, 296 - 272, 15, 017 master, 304 - 277
Sentient, 2,861, 258 - 230, 16, 014 master, 262 - 232
ParadoxiCal, 2,856, 425 - 397, 20, 015 master, 427 - 397
MIKEDRONES, 2,840, 527 - 481, 34, 024 master, 539 - 494
Pastulio, 2,839, 511 - 455, 36, 044 master, 529 - 476
TheRakoon, 2,838, 682 - 636, 37, 004 master, 685 - 637
Dominator, 2,835, 521 - 472, 39, 008 master, 527 - 477
ChavoDelOcho, 2,834, 396 - 351, 41, 036 master, 397 - 351
covertly, 2,834, 447 - 422, 41, 011 master, 458 - 431
Trakky, 2,828, 241 - 192, 52, 023 master, 250 - 200
iamsatan, 2,826, 532 - 494, 56, 007 master, 540 - 499
TheSilence, 2,821, 257 - 230, 63, 008 master, 267 - 237
BZapper, 2,819, 441 - 411, 68, 021 master, 448 - 416
LBO, 2,817, 305 - 262, 74, 016 master, 322 - 275
MistAh, 2,813, 224 - 197, 79, 009 master, 231 - 202
Rhyton, 2,811, 203 - 167, 84, 005 master, 214 - 176
Snipemare, 2,804, 535 - 490, 93, 009 master, 546 - 496
Romer, 2,795, 288 - 254, 113, 005 master, 293 - 257
TheMelkMan, 2,788, 563 - 531, 137, 018 master, 586 - 544
dEBASER, 2,783, 560 - 536, 147, 006 master, 568 - 541
Red, 2,780, 397 - 373, 157, 012 master, 412 - 379
LephanT, 2,779, 504 - 467, 160, 004 master, 526 - 480
BlueDream, 2,767, 828 - 786, 201, 028 master, 858 - 817
Quartang, 2,763, 214 - 192, 209, 018 master, 219 - 194
drumhead, 2,762, 334 - 315, 213, 017 master, 341 - 320
aldjzair, 2,756, 986 - 954, 231, 012 master, 1011 - 973
MrManners, 2,752, 611 - 584, 248, 004 master, 615 - 585
Phobophile, 2,746, 298 - 273, 265, 010 master, 300 - 274
wilsonusopen, 2,744, 317 - 284, 277, 023 master, 326 - 295
deanicks, 2,744, 365 - 337, 277, 027 master, 366 - 340
WATERDEEP, 2,717, 273 - 248, 407, 022 master, 280 - 250
Engine, 2,716, 232 - 210, 413, 009 master, 239 - 215
BrodiaQ, 2,708, 282 - 259, 463, 026 master, 291 - 271
Adrenaline, 2,702, 228 - 204, 500, 020 master, 232 - 207


~0-12 hrs ago:

+ Show Spoiler +

Name, Old Points, Old W-L, Old Position, New Rank, New W-L
MrNovember, 2,916, 274 - 227, 4, 018 master, 276 - 235
CitizenTrust, 2,893, 354 - 319, 10, 008 master, 355 - 321
Chuck, 2,890, 436 - 387, 12, 013 master, 438 - 388
Jampackedeon, 2,882, 306 - 260, 16, 014 master, 308 - 265
MistrBrown, 2,863, 206 - 173, 35, 009 master, 208 - 173
IneptCoder, 2,764, 625 - 602, 310, 005 master, 629 - 606


I hope this might be useful to some people who either might have misconceptions or are looking at their peer group to see who was promoted. Note: just having that many points doesn't mean you are about to be promoted; besides the division offsets, there are quite a few people who have that many or more points but still haven't gotten promoted for at least several days now.

Edit: I think it was 36 hours, but I actually don't keep track of it that often, so the timing might be a little off. Please don't take that figure to try and do any analysis off it (like promotions/day or whatever).
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 23 2011 20:25 GMT
#550
On January 24 2011 05:07 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2011 03:35 semajwd wrote:
#1 Ranking Diamond 2824 rating, still no promotion and I've constantly beat master/2500+ diamonds
so...im not sure why my MMR Is so low but we shall see how long it takes, i've played over 100games in a week.


How many games had you played in the previous week? Perhaps it still hasn't registered you as an "active" player and also you may be waiting for your check in to get promoted since the system checks at irregular intervals after all.


You don't have to be active for the system to promote you.

The 2% top active players will dictate the boundaries for masters, then if you are inactive all you have to do is breaking the boundary for half these master players (the top 1% then).

If what I understand about the system is correct... it might not be 100% correct ^^
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 23 2011 21:18 GMT
#551
wow, I definitely remember playing at least 3 of those guys in that list.. hopefully that means I'm close ^^
Chrysalis.145
semajwd
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada36 Posts
January 24 2011 05:48 GMT
#552
Moved up after hittin 2904 now 2500 master.
...................Infamous Immortal Socrates ;) http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4558230
JFO
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
184 Posts
January 24 2011 07:06 GMT
#553
Seriously, why cant someone just call blizzard on the phone and ask? They should be able to say whats up, anyone got any connections? Im sure teamliquid has at leaste one dude on blizzard that can tell us the truth about this...

I really do not understand master league, theres people with good winrates and 3k+ points on diamond that are not getting promoted, just take a look at sc2ranks and order by winrate or points, and it wont make any sense for a LOT of promotions we've seen.


User was warned for this post
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 24 2011 07:11 GMT
#554
master league is a fixed %, right?
so only so many players can be master league?
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
January 24 2011 07:11 GMT
#555
On January 24 2011 16:06 JFO wrote:
Seriously, why cant someone just call blizzard on the phone and ask? They should be able to say whats up, anyone got any connections? Im sure teamliquid has at leaste one dude on blizzard that can tell us the truth about this...

I really do not understand master league, theres people with good winrates and 3k+ points on diamond that are not getting promoted, just take a look at sc2ranks and order by winrate or points, and it wont make any sense for a LOT of promotions we've seen.


While I'm sure we all would love if blizzard just told us how the ladder system works, the whole idea behind it is that isn't transparent. The one thing that we do know that is that it DOES work. Just the fact that win percentages in the higher leagues tend to hover around 51-52% speaks for itself imo
Chrysalis.145
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 24 2011 07:14 GMT
#556
I'm currently Master in NA but only Diamond in SEA. I switched to NA when both regions were available to SEA (so naturally, my MMR in NA is higher). However, when the master league was introduced, I hopped back unto SEA to try and get the icon for my account there. It's taking much longer than expected, unfortunately. Anyone have a similar experience?
whojohnisgalt
Profile Joined December 2010
93 Posts
January 24 2011 07:47 GMT
#557
yeah same im masters in NA rank 1 diamond in SEA. im finding it harder on SEA cos there's so few players, on NA you get even match nearly every game which probably makes it easier for the system to figure out where you stand. on SEA i oftened play against people who cheese me and i lose 20 points -_-
Oleksandr
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
January 24 2011 07:52 GMT
#558
On January 24 2011 03:35 semajwd wrote:
#1 Ranking Diamond 2824 rating, still no promotion and I've constantly beat master/2500+ diamonds
so...im not sure why my MMR Is so low but we shall see how long it takes, i've played over 100games in a week.

Same here, dude, feel your pain. I've been up to 2900.
Idra: good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers.
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
January 24 2011 07:54 GMT
#559
On January 24 2011 16:11 travis wrote:
master league is a fixed %, right?
so only so many players can be master league?


Interested in this
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Backpack
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1776 Posts
January 24 2011 08:00 GMT
#560
Does matches played play a big role in MMR? I took a break for a month or two, and now I've got a big bonus pool. I've got ~2150 ladder points and 700 bonus pool. Is there any chance I will get promoted soon, or do I need to play a lot more games before I reach the MMR point?
"You people need to just generally care a lot less about everything." -Zatic
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 08:50:02
January 24 2011 08:48 GMT
#561
On January 24 2011 16:11 travis wrote:
master league is a fixed %, right?
so only so many players can be master league?


Sort of. It's technically not a hard 2%. It's kind of complicated and our understanding of it isn't 100% thorough yet because we just learned a lot of this on Friday and there are still many questions that remain. I'll try to explain.

First, it's 2% of active players. That means that if the system considers you to be an active player and you are within the top 2% of other players who are also considered active, you are eligible to be promoted.

This raises the obvious question of "what does the system consider to be active?" Active status hinges upon your bonus pool, since the less active you are, the less bonus pool you are spending. You get 1 point of bonus pool every 112 minutes, or 90 per week, meaning 90 bonus pool is equivalent to one "bonus week." From what we understand there are several tiers of activity.

1. Active players -- Players who spend 90 or more bonus pool per week and have less than X unspent bonus pool.
2. Semi-active players -- Players who have less than X unspent bonus pool.
3. Inactive players -- Players who have X or more unspent bonus pool.

X is something that we're still trying to figure out. It could be a flat value, say 6 bonus weeks' worth, or it could be a percentage of total bonus pool accrued throughout the season. We're also unsure of whether tiers 1 and 2 are the same.

Now, back to the league populations. If you are a semi-active or inactive player and you are matched against another semi-active or inactive player, the system does not gain very much information from that because there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding each player's MMR. It gets the most information by matching you against active players. Note that the system doesn't prefer active players in searches, it just so happens that you're more likely to be matched against an active player because they play more often. If you beat the active Master-level players (which compose roughly 2% of the active population) enough that your moving average moves comfortably into the Master region, you can be promoted.

Second, it's important to know that promotion and demotion also hinges upon a certain confidence level. If you start in Bronze, for example, in order to get promoted into Silver you would have to raise that moving average a fair amount of the way into Silver to prove that you belong there. Demotion is no different.

Therefore, it doesn't inherently mean that by getting promoted that you automatically boot someone else back down to Diamond. For example, if one of the people already in Master league goes inactive, then nobody will get demoted. If, on the other hand, all the active players are still playing games but someone's moving average has fallen into around the mid-Diamond region (thereby proving to the system that that person didn't actually belong in Master league), that person would get demoted.

Hope that answers your question, I understand if that's somewhat confusing. Let me know if you have questions on it and I'll try to clarify further. =]
Moderator
Buddhist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States658 Posts
January 24 2011 08:56 GMT
#562
~.7% of players are Master.
~7% of players are Diamond.
~11.5% of players are in Platinum.
~16% of players are Gold.
~19% of players are Silver.
~46% of players are Copper.

Seems the aim was ~.5%, ~5%, ~10%, ~15%, ~20%, and ~50%.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
January 24 2011 09:04 GMT
#563
On January 24 2011 17:56 Buddhist wrote:
~.7% of players are Master.
~7% of players are Diamond.
~11.5% of players are in Platinum.
~16% of players are Gold.
~19% of players are Silver.
~46% of players are Copper.

Seems the aim was ~.5%, ~5%, ~10%, ~15%, ~20%, and ~50%.

Actually, that's not correct since blizzard's ladder accounts for only active players. Their goal is:
2% Master
18% Diamond
20%/20%/20%/20% Plat/Gold/Silver/Diamond
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
January 24 2011 09:16 GMT
#564
On January 24 2011 16:52 Oleksandr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2011 03:35 semajwd wrote:
#1 Ranking Diamond 2824 rating, still no promotion and I've constantly beat master/2500+ diamonds
so...im not sure why my MMR Is so low but we shall see how long it takes, i've played over 100games in a week.

Same here, dude, feel your pain. I've been up to 2900.


It's based on your rolling average, as stated many times above. So just because you get lucky with your cheese a few times in a row, doesn't make you masters - you have to be more consistent.

For instance, your current score of 2750 is below what I was at when I got promoted several weeks ago, and several hundred bonus pool points (that you have used up) have accumulated since then.
Buddhist
Profile Joined April 2010
United States658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 09:44:53
January 24 2011 09:39 GMT
#565
On January 24 2011 18:04 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2011 17:56 Buddhist wrote:
~.7% of players are Master.
~7% of players are Diamond.
~11.5% of players are in Platinum.
~16% of players are Gold.
~19% of players are Silver.
~46% of players are Copper.

Seems the aim was ~.5%, ~5%, ~10%, ~15%, ~20%, and ~50%.

Actually, that's not correct since blizzard's ladder accounts for only active players. Their goal is:
2% Master
18% Diamond
20%/20%/20%/20% Plat/Gold/Silver/Diamond

I gave the number in each division of total players (rather than active players). I don't know what you're saying is "not correct" o.0.

.5% for Master would match up with Gladiator in WoW, just as a reference.

A week or so ago .5% of people were in Master, and a few months ago, 5% were in Diamond. It fluctuates somewhat over time. The % varies quite a bit in different regions as well, but the average of the regions is somewhere around .5, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 50 for the leagues.
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
January 24 2011 10:00 GMT
#566
On January 24 2011 18:39 Buddhist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2011 18:04 Azzur wrote:
On January 24 2011 17:56 Buddhist wrote:
~.7% of players are Master.
~7% of players are Diamond.
~11.5% of players are in Platinum.
~16% of players are Gold.
~19% of players are Silver.
~46% of players are Copper.

Seems the aim was ~.5%, ~5%, ~10%, ~15%, ~20%, and ~50%.

Actually, that's not correct since blizzard's ladder accounts for only active players. Their goal is:
2% Master
18% Diamond
20%/20%/20%/20% Plat/Gold/Silver/Diamond

I gave the number in each division of total players (rather than active players). I don't know what you're saying is "not correct" o.0.

.5% for Master would match up with Gladiator in WoW, just as a reference.

A week or so ago .5% of people were in Master, and a few months ago, 5% were in Diamond. It fluctuates somewhat over time. The % varies quite a bit in different regions as well, but the average of the regions is somewhere around .5, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 50 for the leagues.


you should really read the posts from excalibur_z. it was stated again and again and again that the 2%, 18%, 20%, 20%... numbers are correct. blizzard uses an activity filter (we dont know exactly which one) so if you go on sc2ranks then youll get wrong numbers.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
January 24 2011 10:49 GMT
#567
Activity is not based on Bonus Pool OR promoting has nothing to do with spending bonus pool / being active.

My friend has a super high MMR (because me + DemusliM played on the account) but he's barely any active. He won 1 game and got promoted with a bonuspool of over 1500.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 24 2011 16:27 GMT
#568
On January 24 2011 19:49 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Activity is not based on Bonus Pool OR promoting has nothing to do with spending bonus pool / being active.

My friend has a super high MMR (because me + DemusliM played on the account) but he's barely any active. He won 1 game and got promoted with a bonuspool of over 1500.


That's correct that promotion doesn't require you to be active. It just requires you to play against active players (so you know where you stand). The only activity-related requirement for promotion is that you have to have played a game (since league changes only occur after playing a game).
Moderator
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 24 2011 16:36 GMT
#569
Grand Master league will probably not be just another league, otherwise one could be promoted to GM and just never play again and stay GM till reset, people need to be demoted from it for inactivity as well, so GM league will be quite special, maybe it won't even be another league, just a top 200 list and these players will get a special icon or something for the time they have GM status.

Who knows! That's probably the reason it's not in yet, it'll be harder than just putting another league there...
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 17:13:07
January 24 2011 17:12 GMT
#570
Master League Divisions are not equal

1. It is assumed that all Master League divisions are equal based on that your new points after promotion is 73 + spent bonus pool when promoted. Everyone gets 73 so the Division must be equal for Master League.

2. We then discovered that for the other leagues you also get 73 + spent bonus pool when promoted.

3. Since we know that the division modifier does not come into play when promoted and that there exist a division modifier for the other leagues, the division modifier must come into play after promotion.

Given this is there anything at all supporting the claim that Master League divisions do not have different point modifiers just as the other leagues?
semajwd
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada36 Posts
January 24 2011 17:20 GMT
#571
I figured, from my promotion i was around 2100 when i started playing again, i went up to 2900 with my bonus pool(Used it up completley) and at around 15 points per win, i played over 200 games and I was put into masters at 2480rating getting bumped down from diamond 2928 (So considering this) when they put you in masters i think they completley remove your bonus pool from your rating "giving you your real rating for the time behing until you play your bonus pool again. However I figure that behing said, around a 2400+ rating without your pool, will give you chance to moveup to masters, other then that i can't really say much else about it. Chances are if your playing masters/high diamonds you will be moving up if your win rate stays the same or improves.
...................Infamous Immortal Socrates ;) http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4558230
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 17:27:49
January 24 2011 17:26 GMT
#572
Given this is there anything at all supporting the claim that Master League divisions do not have different point modifiers just as the other leagues?


A new division only starts when an old one completly fills, so there isn't 2 new divisions at a time, only one.

On diamond we could have up to 7 new divisions, one with 50 players, other with 20, other with 10. That was a sign of the tiers.

There is no doubt there are only 1 tier on Master.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 24 2011 17:45 GMT
#573
On January 25 2011 02:12 MockHamill wrote:
Master League Divisions are not equal

1. It is assumed that all Master League divisions are equal based on that your new points after promotion is 73 + spent bonus pool when promoted. Everyone gets 73 so the Division must be equal for Master League.

2. We then discovered that for the other leagues you also get 73 + spent bonus pool when promoted.

3. Since we know that the division modifier does not come into play when promoted and that there exist a division modifier for the other leagues, the division modifier must come into play after promotion.

Given this is there anything at all supporting the claim that Master League divisions do not have different point modifiers just as the other leagues?


That's a completely valid question, and to follow up to what SDream said about only one division emerging at a time, we don't actually have the proof that there are no tiers yet. Once the calculation for the Top 200 goes back to points, we should see a lot more similarities with SC2Ranks. We just have what we believe to be a very strong conjecture based upon discussions with the designers as well as the one-division-at-a-time thing.
Moderator
Flashback-
Profile Joined November 2010
65 Posts
January 24 2011 18:19 GMT
#574
looks like sc2ranks and the new top200 are exactly identical

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2058996#blog
Dark_Luster
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Korea (South)438 Posts
January 24 2011 18:23 GMT
#575
wait. i dont think this is entirely accurate? i played 33 games my record was 27-6 and then that 33rd game i played it placed me in masters. i dont think they can determine that i am top 2% of active players because i wasn't even like rank 90 .. so how does this apply to my account?
#1 Horangee fan
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 18:28:31
January 24 2011 18:25 GMT
#576
"looks like sc2ranks and the new top200 are exactly identical

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2058996#blog"

woot, new top 200 with TIES!

It is by points this week, hope LA server follows it!
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 24 2011 18:29 GMT
#577
On January 25 2011 03:19 Flashback- wrote:
looks like sc2ranks and the new top200 are exactly identical

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2058996#blog


Yep. This confirms there are no division tiers for Master.
Moderator
JFO
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 18:36:37
January 24 2011 18:35 GMT
#578
Skill level at Masters league in LA server, is like platinum on NA, for sure. Shouldn't that be balanced within time or something?

edit. not meant as an offense, i actually reside in LA.
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 24 2011 18:43 GMT
#579
On January 25 2011 03:35 JFO wrote:
Skill level at Masters league in LA server, is like platinum on NA, for sure. Shouldn't that be balanced within time or something?

edit. not meant as an offense, i actually reside in LA.


What do you mean by balanced? Whatever the skill of LA server is, it is fine, so is Korean skill and US skill etc.
FrostedMiniWeet
Profile Joined July 2009
United States636 Posts
January 24 2011 18:48 GMT
#580
On January 25 2011 03:35 JFO wrote:
Skill level at Masters league in LA server, is like platinum on NA, for sure. Shouldn't that be balanced within time or something?

edit. not meant as an offense, i actually reside in LA.


If there are fewer good players, as is apparently the case with the LA server, then the league skill boundaries will be lower. There is nothing that can be done about that really.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
January 24 2011 21:08 GMT
#581
Okay explain this... I was looking at an account of the 100th place guy in the masters division of some guy i beat...

the 100th place guy was
24-9.. in masters.

I then checked his game history which showed that he played 1 ladder game 1 week ago and won. Before that it was 1 game 17 weeks ago, won. Before that it was 1 game 21 weeks ago, won.

I couldnt see the other 30 games and im assuming they had to be right at release.

How was he promoted after 1 game after a 17 week break?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 24 2011 21:54 GMT
#582
How was he promoted after 1 game after a 17 week break?


As we've said in the last pages at least twice, you don't have to be an active player to be promoted.
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
January 24 2011 22:54 GMT
#583
On January 25 2011 06:08 Jayrod wrote:
How was he promoted after 1 game after a 17 week break?


his MMR was high enough 17 weeks ago
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
Terranium
Profile Joined February 2004
Turkmenistan144 Posts
January 25 2011 06:47 GMT
#584
Ok explain this:

My brother is a 2.6k diamond protoss at the moment with about 150 bonus pool. He had 1000 bonus pool pre-patch and has been playing a ton since 1.2 trying to get into masters but so far still not promoted. He asked me for help last night.

I myself got promoted last week after about 5 games. I was 2.6k diamond terran at that time with no bonus points. (I regularly play 1v1 with my brother and I know our skills are very close.)

So last night I played on my brothers account for 6 games. I went 4-2. No promotion. All of my opponents were high diamonds. And as a master leaguer I must say the high diamonds were by no means easier to beat than the average master opponents I played on my own account.

I know that how often you play doesn't factor into promotion so I'm really quite confused now how this system works. Maybe it has something to do with race?
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
January 25 2011 06:50 GMT
#585
On January 25 2011 15:47 Terranium wrote:
Ok explain this:

My brother is a 2.6k diamond protoss at the moment with about 150 bonus pool. He had 1000 bonus pool pre-patch and has been playing a ton since 1.2 trying to get into masters but so far still not promoted. He asked me for help last night.

I myself got promoted last week after about 5 games. I was 2.6k diamond terran at that time with no bonus points. (I regularly play 1v1 with my brother and I know our skills are very close.)

So last night I played on my brothers account for 6 games. I went 4-2. No promotion. All of my opponents were high diamonds. And as a master leaguer I must say the high diamonds were by no means easier to beat than the average master opponents I played on my own account.

I know that how often you play doesn't factor into promotion so I'm really quite confused now how this system works. Maybe it has something to do with race?


I'd say the mmr requirement to get into Master will continue to climb up as the system continually demotes the lowest Masters. You'll prolly need to get to 2.9k to get into Master now.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 25 2011 07:07 GMT
#586
On January 25 2011 15:50 Dionyseus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2011 15:47 Terranium wrote:
Ok explain this:

My brother is a 2.6k diamond protoss at the moment with about 150 bonus pool. He had 1000 bonus pool pre-patch and has been playing a ton since 1.2 trying to get into masters but so far still not promoted. He asked me for help last night.

I myself got promoted last week after about 5 games. I was 2.6k diamond terran at that time with no bonus points. (I regularly play 1v1 with my brother and I know our skills are very close.)

So last night I played on my brothers account for 6 games. I went 4-2. No promotion. All of my opponents were high diamonds. And as a master leaguer I must say the high diamonds were by no means easier to beat than the average master opponents I played on my own account.

I know that how often you play doesn't factor into promotion so I'm really quite confused now how this system works. Maybe it has something to do with race?


I'd say the mmr requirement to get into Master will continue to climb up as the system continually demotes the lowest Masters. You'll prolly need to get to 2.9k to get into Master now.


I think that's probably true, at least in the short term. Remember that Master is only the top 2% of active players, so the skill difference between high Diamond and low-to-mid Master is probably not very large. That means Master is going to be quite competitive to get into, especially early on as that bar keeps rising. Eventually it will probably fall a bit as more Master players go inactive, but that depends on whether the lower leagues carry a smaller proportion of players who are quitting.
Moderator
Turo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada333 Posts
January 25 2011 07:14 GMT
#587
how is THIS guy #157 on the top 200 list?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2170697/1/FullTiltPokr/
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
January 25 2011 07:19 GMT
#588
Oh snap, nice catch. Looks like it falls in line with the 150 point modifier, or at least close to it, seeing as FTP is in an S-rank division.
secret - never again
god deezy yo
Profile Joined November 2010
49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 07:29:53
January 25 2011 07:27 GMT
#589
edit:im dumb ignore me
JDM.s2000
Profile Joined September 2010
United States122 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 08:16:16
January 25 2011 08:15 GMT
#590
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 25 2011 11:23 GMT
#591
On January 25 2011 16:14 Turo wrote:
how is THIS guy #157 on the top 200 list?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2170697/1/FullTiltPokr/


He has enough points, MMR and activity. The question should be: how is he not on master league? And the answer is also simple, he hasn't playing since the patch, he probably just needs 1 victory to be promoted, but then he won't have enough points anymore
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
January 25 2011 11:38 GMT
#592
Ok, please don't hate on me, but I'm sure there are many people who have checked this already and can save me some time - when we are talking about "high diamond" nowadays, what point-range are we talking about...exactly? What I mean is: before the introduction of master-league, high-diamond would definitely be above 3k, probably even higher. Now all of those are in master-league, so is high-diamond now 2,5-3k?
To make my point more clear: does anybody know the average (!) point-bar for people to get promoted into master right now? Obviously I tried to find intel on sc2ranks, nevertheless the problem is, that there are still so many players with really high ratings who just didn't play a game because they have a knew account. Btw this is not me wanting to find out how "high" I have to climb, my skill is currently below what I'd consider to be master-worthy. I'm simply 100% interested.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 11:53:35
January 25 2011 11:50 GMT
#593
First: how many bonus pool are out there today? Sum 73 to this, and you have the MINIMUN diamond points (for someone that spent all of their bonus pool).

Right now the answer is: 2430 (bonus pool) + 73 = 2503
Sum 12 for every day after today and you will keep it up to date.
Anyone with less than that is then obviously low diamond, but having more than that, more than the MINIMUN won't make you out of low diamond, really.

The main problem here is the existence of division tiers on diamond, so a 2500 E-Diamond is obviously low, but an 2500 S-Diamond is actually 315+ worth, and that's a huge difference.

That said, unless you know you division offset, you can't even speculate about if you are low or mid. 315 points difference is too much to ignore.

In my opinion, high diamond are the ones that face masters somewhat often. mid diamond are the ones that only face diamond, and low diamond are the ones that still face platinum from time to time. That's a way reasonable way to separete things, now that it doesn't matter, as we do have master players, they matter.

Cya
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 19:28:01
January 25 2011 19:26 GMT
#594
Hey exca, check out Huk's recent games. He is constantly being favored in all of his matches and his points are slowly dropping even though he has like a > 60% win rate recently. http://sc2ranks.com/kr/2083939/LiquidHuK

I wonder if the distribution in master league in korea is off. Are you observing this with any of the other players?

Edit; I've checked the top 20 people in the korean ladder and it looks like it is happening to all of the players. Those who aren't laddering are having abnormally higher ratings.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Qntc.YuMe
Profile Joined January 2011
United States792 Posts
January 25 2011 19:31 GMT
#595
Has anyone confirmed you could get demoted not even playing 1v1 games in general in masters? Like master league camping?
Icx
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Belgium853 Posts
January 25 2011 19:50 GMT
#596
I think that is to early to tell, since the master's league has only existed for a couple of weeks now.

And I don't think people is gonna start demoting people who haven't played in a month or so.
So that is something that we will have to see, in example 2 months from now some people that have gone inactive might start dropping out.

Altough I have no idea how they would do that, since currently you have to win or lose a game to get promoted/demoted.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
January 25 2011 19:53 GMT
#597
On January 26 2011 04:50 Icx wrote:
I think that is to early to tell, since the master's league has only existed for a couple of weeks now.

And I don't think people is gonna start demoting people who haven't played in a month or so.
So that is something that we will have to see, in example 2 months from now some people that have gone inactive might start dropping out.

Altough I have no idea how they would do that, since currently you have to win or lose a game to get promoted/demoted.


Most demotions occur when a player has gone inactive for a while and then come back to get demoted in like 3-4 games. Most active players are improving at the game so they are unlikely to get demoted.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 25 2011 19:58 GMT
#598
On January 26 2011 04:26 darmousseh wrote:
Hey exca, check out Huk's recent games. He is constantly being favored in all of his matches and his points are slowly dropping even though he has like a > 60% win rate recently. http://sc2ranks.com/kr/2083939/LiquidHuK

I wonder if the distribution in master league in korea is off. Are you observing this with any of the other players?

Edit; I've checked the top 20 people in the korean ladder and it looks like it is happening to all of the players. Those who aren't laddering are having abnormally higher ratings.


Two things here:

1) The Master league offset is 150 points. People who had Diamond ratings of like 3500 unmodified points but just haven't played since the patch are still in the Top 200, hanging in there with the 3350-point Master players. If they did play and got promoted they would fall to around 2500 points and would fall off the Top 200. After probably 3-4 weeks or so we'll probably see every inactive Diamond player fall off the Top 200 (since if they were to play games they would get promoted).

2) At the top end of the ladder, it's very common for the top players to constantly be Favored because their MMRs and points are so far above the next-highest level of players that their win ratio has to be that much higher to stay ahead in points. We saw this in Diamond league too.
Moderator
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 25 2011 19:59 GMT
#599
On January 26 2011 04:31 DreamRaider wrote:
Has anyone confirmed you could get demoted not even playing 1v1 games in general in masters? Like master league camping?


You don't get demoted due to inactivity and inactive players don't "reserve" spots in leagues. They still keep the icon but they're not counted as part of the active population and therefore don't prevent other players from moving into the league.
Moderator
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
January 25 2011 20:00 GMT
#600
Being active is not about last game played, probably, but spent bonus pool. Not confirmed information though.

That said, none will be demoted without playing games. These guys with 40 games on master, they are already inactive, doesn't matter that they played yesterday. Well, again, non-confirmed information

Believe at your own risk ^^
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
January 25 2011 20:16 GMT
#601
On January 26 2011 04:58 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 04:26 darmousseh wrote:
Hey exca, check out Huk's recent games. He is constantly being favored in all of his matches and his points are slowly dropping even though he has like a > 60% win rate recently. http://sc2ranks.com/kr/2083939/LiquidHuK

I wonder if the distribution in master league in korea is off. Are you observing this with any of the other players?

Edit; I've checked the top 20 people in the korean ladder and it looks like it is happening to all of the players. Those who aren't laddering are having abnormally higher ratings.


Two things here:

1) The Master league offset is 150 points. People who had Diamond ratings of like 3500 unmodified points but just haven't played since the patch are still in the Top 200, hanging in there with the 3350-point Master players. If they did play and got promoted they would fall to around 2500 points and would fall off the Top 200. After probably 3-4 weeks or so we'll probably see every inactive Diamond player fall off the Top 200 (since if they were to play games they would get promoted).

2) At the top end of the ladder, it's very common for the top players to constantly be Favored because their MMRs and points are so far above the next-highest level of players that their win ratio has to be that much higher to stay ahead in points. We saw this in Diamond league too.


#2 That makes sense considering the matchmaking system and the likelihood of finding a good match is low for top tier players.

#1 Ok so the offset is 150 points, now do you have any information on recent games between top tier players to compare points lost and opponents MMR? If we assume a normal distribution rating system, and a K factor of 20, we can find out if the points are scaled and then come up with an approximate MMR for top tier players. Bonus pool seems to make this discovery harder.


Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 25 2011 20:27 GMT
#602
On January 26 2011 05:16 darmousseh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 04:58 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On January 26 2011 04:26 darmousseh wrote:
Hey exca, check out Huk's recent games. He is constantly being favored in all of his matches and his points are slowly dropping even though he has like a > 60% win rate recently. http://sc2ranks.com/kr/2083939/LiquidHuK

I wonder if the distribution in master league in korea is off. Are you observing this with any of the other players?

Edit; I've checked the top 20 people in the korean ladder and it looks like it is happening to all of the players. Those who aren't laddering are having abnormally higher ratings.


Two things here:

1) The Master league offset is 150 points. People who had Diamond ratings of like 3500 unmodified points but just haven't played since the patch are still in the Top 200, hanging in there with the 3350-point Master players. If they did play and got promoted they would fall to around 2500 points and would fall off the Top 200. After probably 3-4 weeks or so we'll probably see every inactive Diamond player fall off the Top 200 (since if they were to play games they would get promoted).

2) At the top end of the ladder, it's very common for the top players to constantly be Favored because their MMRs and points are so far above the next-highest level of players that their win ratio has to be that much higher to stay ahead in points. We saw this in Diamond league too.


#2 That makes sense considering the matchmaking system and the likelihood of finding a good match is low for top tier players.

#1 Ok so the offset is 150 points, now do you have any information on recent games between top tier players to compare points lost and opponents MMR? If we assume a normal distribution rating system, and a K factor of 20, we can find out if the points are scaled and then come up with an approximate MMR for top tier players. Bonus pool seems to make this discovery harder.




I'm not even going to try mapping MMR. We know far too little about it.
Moderator
Laxzngr
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2 Posts
January 25 2011 22:49 GMT
#603
Has there been any update on the status of masters league for team games?
official updates, of course.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 25 2011 22:51 GMT
#604
On January 26 2011 07:49 Laxzngr wrote:
Has there been any update on the status of masters league for team games?
official updates, of course.


Blizzard hasn't commented on the status of Master leagues in team game types. Naturally, we haven't seen any and it's been 2 weeks since the patch, so pretty safe to say they don't exist.
Moderator
hyun360
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2 Posts
January 26 2011 01:10 GMT
#605
Just got promoted to masters right now. Was in diamond at roughly 2650 points and then after promotion, 2350. For what it's worth, for the last 15 games or so I kept getting matched with ~2600 masters or ~2800 diamond. So if you are getting matched with mostly masters or high diamond and winning, you are close to a promotion.
Get.Midikem
Profile Joined September 2006
Sweden312 Posts
January 27 2011 15:06 GMT
#606
On January 25 2011 02:20 semajwd wrote:
I figured, from my promotion i was around 2100 when i started playing again, i went up to 2900 with my bonus pool(Used it up completley) and at around 15 points per win, i played over 200 games and I was put into masters at 2480rating getting bumped down from diamond 2928 (So considering this) when they put you in masters i think they completley remove your bonus pool from your rating "giving you your real rating for the time behing until you play your bonus pool again. However I figure that behing said, around a 2400+ rating without your pool, will give you chance to moveup to masters, other then that i can't really say much else about it. Chances are if your playing masters/high diamonds you will be moving up if your win rate stays the same or improves.


I actually think you are right of all people, i think its simply that easy.
SniXSniPe
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1938 Posts
January 27 2011 15:45 GMT
#607
I had 40 wins and around 1000 diamond points when I was promoted to Masters.

My Bonus pool was over 1600. After promotion, my points went to around 800~ish or so.
darkevilxe
Profile Joined August 2007
Canada346 Posts
January 27 2011 15:51 GMT
#608
what's considered high diamond ATM? I'm consistently matched with 2600 diamond but no master league players, so am i being considered for promotion?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 27 2011 16:27 GMT
#609
On January 28 2011 00:51 darkevilxe wrote:
what's considered high diamond ATM? I'm consistently matched with 2600 diamond but no master league players, so am i being considered for promotion?


You're probably not very close, then. The max bonus pool right now is 2500. Those are virtually free points, so if we discount those points, your actual points are closer to 100 (and that's not counting your possible hidden division offset, which may not be insignificant), or roughly 8 wins over losses. You'll know you're close once you start getting matched against Master players very regularly, but for now it sounds like you're around the bottom-mid of Diamond.
Moderator
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
January 27 2011 18:16 GMT
#610
Excalibur, its been 2 week since masters have been introduced are you close to crack masters bonus modifier and all that jazz or blizzard thought you were too close to cracking it first time so they made it even more harder now ??
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 27 2011 18:18 GMT
#611
On January 28 2011 03:16 desrow wrote:
Excalibur, its been 2 week since masters have been introduced are you close to crack masters bonus modifier and all that jazz or blizzard thought you were too close to cracking it first time so they made it even more harder now ??


We solved it this week. The league offset is -150 from S-Rank Diamond, but all Master divisions are equal.
Moderator
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
January 27 2011 21:02 GMT
#612
got just promoted: 2938 -> 2533

in case anyone is interessted
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
Ruthless
Profile Joined August 2008
United States492 Posts
January 27 2011 21:12 GMT
#613
you probably lost the -150 and your league modifier
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
January 27 2011 21:13 GMT
#614
On January 28 2011 06:12 Ruthless wrote:
you probably lost the -150 and your league modifier



Uh no. First post dude, read it. Points are reset to spent bonus pool + 73.
secret - never again
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
January 27 2011 21:17 GMT
#615
When I got promoted I didn't have too many games played and I had a huge bonus pool. I have a record of something like 120-90 and when I was promoted I kept 1700 of my 2000 points and my bonus pool stayed the EXACT same. Ive only played one game since so im at ~1750 masters i think as of yesterday with a 950 bonus pool.

Before getting promoted I was facing 2850+ diamonds and 2500-2700 masters regularly. Im guessing assuming everyones skill level stays the same in relation to my development, when I spend this bonus pool ill be around ~2600. If I improve faster or am actually ahead of where my MMR currently lies I could end up being higher but if I win just half my games thats about where id be. All of my opponents are pretty much around that rating currently.

Ive also been keeping track of my last 40 games or so in SC2 gears and over that period of time i have a 65-70% win rate. Does your MMR move up more quickly if you are on a hot streak because you are facing harder opponents?
Soliduok
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada222 Posts
January 27 2011 21:52 GMT
#616
On January 28 2011 06:02 Zeon0 wrote:
got just promoted: 2938 -> 2533

in case anyone is interessted


What was your bonus pool at? I'm not understanding what "spent bonus pool" means :S
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 27 2011 22:20 GMT
#617
On January 28 2011 06:52 uok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2011 06:02 Zeon0 wrote:
got just promoted: 2938 -> 2533

in case anyone is interessted


What was your bonus pool at? I'm not understanding what "spent bonus pool" means :S


Right now the current max bonus pool is 2488, increasing 1 point every 112 minutes. If you have 1000 remaining bonus pool, then you've spent 1488 bonus pool so far. If you got promoted at that exact moment, your points in your new league would be 1561.
Moderator
Ursad0n
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States523 Posts
January 28 2011 02:26 GMT
#618
So I am kinda confused. I'm in plat because I recently bought the game, but I've been playing Diamond people a lot recently, winning some losing some. Is it not promoting me because It only wants to promote you once and I'm between diamond and masters, or because b.net is a PoS?
You make it sound like there's a correlation between what should happen and what actually happens. I mean, life is chaotic and it's often unfair. I know it is for me.
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
January 28 2011 02:31 GMT
#619
On January 26 2011 07:51 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 07:49 Laxzngr wrote:
Has there been any update on the status of masters league for team games?
official updates, of course.


Blizzard hasn't commented on the status of Master leagues in team game types. Naturally, we haven't seen any and it's been 2 weeks since the patch, so pretty safe to say they don't exist.


Right now they dont exist. I dont think they make alot of sense, but blizzard can do whatever they want. And if they want a master's league for teams games - we are gonna get it.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Labmonkey
Profile Joined March 2010
United States62 Posts
January 29 2011 16:49 GMT
#620
On January 28 2011 11:26 Ursad0n wrote:
So I am kinda confused. I'm in plat because I recently bought the game, but I've been playing Diamond people a lot recently, winning some losing some. Is it not promoting me because It only wants to promote you once and I'm between diamond and masters, or because b.net is a PoS?


It waits until you have played more games and it has a better sense of how good you are. Otherwise you would be constantly getting promoted/demoted.
revy
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1524 Posts
January 29 2011 16:58 GMT
#621
On January 26 2011 10:10 hyun360 wrote:
Just got promoted to masters right now. Was in diamond at roughly 2650 points and then after promotion, 2350. For what it's worth, for the last 15 games or so I kept getting matched with ~2600 masters or ~2800 diamond. So if you are getting matched with mostly masters or high diamond and winning, you are close to a promotion.


Good news for me, I just got matched against my first Masters player (and won!) then got matched against a ~2850ish diamond (and lost). Seems like I'm getting close to the promotion, just have to improve a tiny bit more!
RuN
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Brazil234 Posts
January 30 2011 03:53 GMT
#622
Ive been getting matched with 2800+ Diamond and 2400+ Masters now, I should be close. I will post here hopefully ill mass games tommorow and get it.

Currently have like 900 bonus pool? 125/94 and 2k points in diamond..let see.
My Portfolio ! http:/www.mgs3d.com
Terranium
Profile Joined February 2004
Turkmenistan144 Posts
January 31 2011 07:35 GMT
#623
Is it really true that all divisions in Master League are equal?

I notice some "pro" divisions like Templar Alpha, Lockwell Mu have over 20 3K+ players and 15+ top 200 players each division while there are only 5 3k players in my division Hellion Tango and only 3 of them are among top 200.

Some newly established master divisions are even crappier with no top 200 players and you can be no.1 with a 2600ish score.
TheOnlyOne
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany155 Posts
January 31 2011 07:38 GMT
#624
On January 31 2011 16:35 Terranium wrote:
Is it really true that all divisions in Master League are equal?

I notice some "pro" divisions like Templar Alpha, Lockwell Mu have over 20 3K+ players and 15+ top 200 players each division while there are only 5 3k players in my division Hellion Tango and only 3 of them are among top 200.

Some newly established master divisions are even crappier with no top 200 players and you can be no.1 with a 2600ish score.


Thats the "time" , not the difference in the divisions.

A "new" Master Division right now will be overall weaker, but theirs no modificator for points in Master compared to Diamant etc.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
January 31 2011 08:26 GMT
#625
On January 31 2011 16:35 Terranium wrote:
Is it really true that all divisions in Master League are equal?

I notice some "pro" divisions like Templar Alpha, Lockwell Mu have over 20 3K+ players and 15+ top 200 players each division while there are only 5 3k players in my division Hellion Tango and only 3 of them are among top 200.

Some newly established master divisions are even crappier with no top 200 players and you can be no.1 with a 2600ish score.


Well, that's kinda the point - in the "old" system the crappier divisions had worse players with "more" points compared to the better divisions. Now the worse divisions simply have only players with fewer points which is perfect the way it is. Divisions are completely irrelevant anyways, I have no idea why anybody would care about his division-ranking.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
ChThoniC
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States536 Posts
January 31 2011 08:57 GMT
#626
I'm so glad I finally made masters, and there's no division tiers that made me confused as to where I stood.
i c u
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
January 31 2011 09:21 GMT
#627
Does anyone has the stats of race composition in master league ? Because at the moment, I am only facing protoss and sometimes zerg. I've had a time where I faced 50% protoss 50% terran (winning all vs terran, loosing all against protoss) and now I only (I mean only, like 20 game in a row is 17 protoss and 3 zerg) face protoss.
My master league top 12 is 8 protoss 2 terran 2 zerg...

Does the MMR evolve only evolve around winning and loosing or does it count the match up ?
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Get.Midikem
Profile Joined September 2006
Sweden312 Posts
January 31 2011 10:40 GMT
#628
How do you guys see whos new in to master league?
SovSov
Profile Joined September 2010
United States755 Posts
January 31 2011 11:14 GMT
#629
Every master league player I've been paired against has been Z. ZvZ is my worst match up so I lose . Now I'm not getting matched up against master anymore, so I'm worried I blew my chance. My ZvP and ZvT is 1000x better though (I regularly beat master Ts and Ps friends and randoms in KOTHs). I feel like I got ripped off It seems like those master Zergs have knocked my MMR back down to where I'm playing against people I can comfortably beat. I wonder when I'll get my next chance.. and I hope I don't get extremely unlucky again.
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
January 31 2011 11:49 GMT
#630
Promoted yesterday. Was ~1k diamond. Now ~900 master.

Wohoo
Hello=)
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
January 31 2011 16:07 GMT
#631
On January 31 2011 18:21 WhiteDog wrote:
Does anyone has the stats of race composition in master league ? Because at the moment, I am only facing protoss and sometimes zerg. I've had a time where I faced 50% protoss 50% terran (winning all vs terran, loosing all against protoss) and now I only (I mean only, like 20 game in a row is 17 protoss and 3 zerg) face protoss.
My master league top 12 is 8 protoss 2 terran 2 zerg...

Does the MMR evolve only evolve around winning and loosing or does it count the match up ?


It's only whether you win or lose (and the MMR of the opponent).
Moderator
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
January 31 2011 16:08 GMT
#632
finally been motherfuckin promoted. Was sitting at #1 diamond and playin against masters for like 2 weeks. Went from 2900 rank 1 diamond to 2600 rank 4 master.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
LagT_T
Profile Joined March 2010
Argentina535 Posts
January 31 2011 16:11 GMT
#633
On January 31 2011 20:14 SovSov wrote:
Every master league player I've been paired against has been Z. ZvZ is my worst match up so I lose . Now I'm not getting matched up against master anymore, so I'm worried I blew my chance. My ZvP and ZvT is 1000x better though (I regularly beat master Ts and Ps friends and randoms in KOTHs). I feel like I got ripped off It seems like those master Zergs have knocked my MMR back down to where I'm playing against people I can comfortably beat. I wonder when I'll get my next chance.. and I hope I don't get extremely unlucky again.


Or you can try to improve your ZvZ... Luck sometimes has nothing to do with it.
"The tactics... no. Amateurs discuss tactics, professional soldiers study logistics." - Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising
Subterfuge
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)11 Posts
February 01 2011 01:52 GMT
#634
Kind of an off-topic question, but what is the name of the first Masters division that was created in NA? The second? Is there a place on sc2ranks where I can list them using time created?
Fluent in both Korean and English. 북미에서 스2 잘 하시는 한국분들 쪽지해 주세요 같이해요~
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 01 2011 01:57 GMT
#635
From what I remember in the Patch 1.2.0 thread, Tabrenus Zeta was #1, Lockwell Mu was #2, Templar Alpha was #3, and Argo X-Ray was #4.
Moderator
Shadowed
Profile Joined August 2010
United States679 Posts
February 01 2011 01:59 GMT
#636
I don't have the times offhand, but Excal is right. The first 10 in NA are:

Division Tabrenus Zeta
Division Lockwell Mu
Division Templar Alpha
Division Argo X-Ray
Division Kaloth Tau
Division Nahaan Lima
Division Void Ray Bravo
Division Nargil Epsilon
Division Siege Tank Sierra
Division Moria Romeo
Subterfuge
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)11 Posts
February 01 2011 09:44 GMT
#637
Thanks for the info guys. Im in lockwell mu, and i remember playing my first game and winning it within ten minutes of bnet coming online and not getting promoted due to some bug, then winning my second game a few minutes later and getting promoted. I figured my division would be one of the first master league divisions. :p
Fluent in both Korean and English. 북미에서 스2 잘 하시는 한국분들 쪽지해 주세요 같이해요~
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
February 01 2011 18:20 GMT
#638
What does it take to get demoted from masters? Has anyone been sent back down to diamond? I think I'm like 5-11 over the past week. Looks like I might end up being the first!
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
February 01 2011 18:23 GMT
#639
ive played against high diamonds before who were demoted from masters, so you wont be the first.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
brutality
Profile Joined August 2010
United States167 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-01 18:51:41
February 01 2011 18:50 GMT
#640
On February 02 2011 03:20 Jayrod wrote:
What does it take to get demoted from masters? Has anyone been sent back down to diamond? I think I'm like 5-11 over the past week. Looks like I might end up being the first!


i pulled a morrow and lost an entire page worth in a row i didn't get demoted to diamond and still play the same level of people 2.7k-3k. chances are you won't get demoted, but besides the point you shouldn't be scared of getting demoted! play the game lol
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-01 20:38:45
February 01 2011 19:39 GMT
#641
RuN
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Brazil234 Posts
February 01 2011 19:45 GMT
#642
Just got promoted, from 2200 points to 1800.
My Portfolio ! http:/www.mgs3d.com
jnkw
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada347 Posts
February 02 2011 02:25 GMT
#643
On February 02 2011 04:45 RuN_br wrote:
Just got promoted, from 2200 points to 1800.


Congrats. Unfortunately posts that mention points before/after like this aren't helpful at all though, because we don't know how much bonus pool you had before, or your division modifier.
RuN
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Brazil234 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 02:39:51
February 02 2011 02:32 GMT
#644
well sorry about that, I didnt really write it down =/.

I do have a question tho, is there a hard cap for the number of players that can be in master league? If so why have we not hit it yet, new divisions are cropping up every day.

Is there no limit to master league players?


Also does that mean nobody can get demoted since there is technicaly no cap?
My Portfolio ! http:/www.mgs3d.com
oesis
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
117 Posts
February 02 2011 02:49 GMT
#645
You can be demoted out of masters league, and re-promoted into it, it happened to me, you just wont necessarily be put back into same division.
1000==0011
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 02 2011 02:51 GMT
#646
On February 02 2011 11:32 RuN_br wrote:
well sorry about that, I didnt really write it down =/.

I do have a question tho, is there a hard cap for the number of players that can be in master league? If so why have we not hit it yet, new divisions are cropping up every day.

Is there no limit to master league players?


Also does that mean nobody can get demoted since there is technicaly no cap?


Read the first post's section on activity. That's why more divisions are popping up. Players who are already in Master league just stop playing once they get promoted, which frees up more spots in the league.
Moderator
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 02 2011 02:59 GMT
#647
On February 02 2011 11:49 oesis wrote:
You can be demoted out of masters league, and re-promoted into it, it happened to me, you just wont necessarily be put back into same division.


Side note, I don't understand why you would do this. I saw your other thread on the matter. Your new division isn't any easier than your old one because there are no division tiers in Master league.
Moderator
Fmlead
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1 Post
February 02 2011 03:21 GMT
#648
Wait the Logo for Master League went from black background to blue background?
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4116/masterp.png
to
http://gamerant.com/starcraft-2-master-league-details-johnj-61159/
SovSov
Profile Joined September 2010
United States755 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 16:15:40
February 02 2011 16:14 GMT
#649
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 02 2011 16:31 GMT
#650
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


As long as those top 2% stayed in the top 2%, yes. If one of them remained active but wasn't winning as often as someone rising up from Diamond such that the Diamond player reached the top 2% and crossed into that Master threshold, he would be replaced.

Your activity doesn't really matter as much as the activity levels of existing players. Take these two scenarios as an example:

Let's say there's a Top 5 league and it consists of Nazgul, Ret, Nony, Jinro, and HuK. They're all super top level players on their imaginary server. Now let's say PiQLiQ is down there in the #6 position and he just can't catch up to any of them. Suddenly Nazgul, who was in the #1 spot, quits the game to go hang out with Eriador on a camping adventure. After a period of time, he would go inactive, and PiQLiQ, on his very next game after Nazgul is no longer declared active, would move up into the Top 5. PiQLiQ's overall skill hasn't changed, and the relative skill levels of the TL players hasn't changed, but a spot opened up in Master and he got promoted because he was next in line.

Nazgul returns from his camping adventure with Eriador, which was actually studying the ancient secrets of Garimto in the Peaks of Baekdu. He hasn't lost any skill and so when he returns to SC2 he is still razor sharp. As soon as he plays his first game, he's still in the #1 spot, and even though PiQLiQ is active and plays 100 games a day, Nazgul's skill level is higher and so he returns to joining that Top 5 league. Because Nazgul came back, that puts PiQLiQ back at #6 and therefore out of the league.

I hope that illustrates both sides of the league change.
Moderator
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 16:42:30
February 02 2011 16:34 GMT
#651
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


Active players have to do with every league. So if the total number of active playes goes up, then slots for every league will be made. Master has 2% of (top) active players in the same sense that bronze has 20% of (bottom) active players.

Inactive players are also playing though, they can play everyday and still be inactive, so they also deserve to have a slot in some league, right? Active players will dictate the boundaries for leagues, and then inactive players just need to cross it and position there confortable so the system promotes them.

You can't ignore that the server has "total players" and that total players are made of active and inactive players. Being inactive doesn't mean that you don't play for X time, but that you have a X bonus pool, which means someone can play every single day and still be inactive cause of the huge amount of bonus pool. (if you play only 1 game every day chances are you won't spend all your bonus points, ever, they'll just accumulate at infinite, so you'll be inactive forever.)
shtdisturbance
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada613 Posts
February 02 2011 16:36 GMT
#652
I am curious i read about inactivity and stuff and i was wondering if lots of people go inactive once making masters then new divisions are created. Once these players start to play again and become active will there not be over 2% masters? Or would people get demoted?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 16:46:10
February 02 2011 16:44 GMT
#653
On February 03 2011 01:36 shtdisturbance wrote:
I am curious i read about inactivity and stuff and i was wondering if lots of people go inactive once making masters then new divisions are created. Once these players start to play again and become active will there not be over 2% masters? Or would people get demoted?


The 2% of active players for master and 20% of active players for bronze don't ever change, so yes, people will get promoted, demoted accordingly.

Then we have the inactive players, they can be anything, 100% of them could be on master (in a strange world where people that don't play are actually better than the ones that play pretty often, so not in our real world), but right now most of them are in bronze, inflating the bronze stats on sites like sc2ranks.
SovSov
Profile Joined September 2010
United States755 Posts
February 02 2011 16:49 GMT
#654
On February 03 2011 01:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


As long as those top 2% stayed in the top 2%, yes. If one of them remained active but wasn't winning as often as someone rising up from Diamond such that the Diamond player reached the top 2% and crossed into that Master threshold, he would be replaced.

Your activity doesn't really matter as much as the activity levels of existing players. Take these two scenarios as an example:

Let's say there's a Top 5 league and it consists of Nazgul, Ret, Nony, Jinro, and HuK. They're all super top level players on their imaginary server. Now let's say PiQLiQ is down there in the #6 position and he just can't catch up to any of them. Suddenly Nazgul, who was in the #1 spot, quits the game to go hang out with Eriador on a camping adventure. After a period of time, he would go inactive, and PiQLiQ, on his very next game after Nazgul is no longer declared active, would move up into the Top 5. PiQLiQ's overall skill hasn't changed, and the relative skill levels of the TL players hasn't changed, but a spot opened up in Master and he got promoted because he was next in line.

Nazgul returns from his camping adventure with Eriador, which was actually studying the ancient secrets of Garimto in the Peaks of Baekdu. He hasn't lost any skill and so when he returns to SC2 he is still razor sharp. As soon as he plays his first game, he's still in the #1 spot, and even though PiQLiQ is active and plays 100 games a day, Nazgul's skill level is higher and so he returns to joining that Top 5 league. Because Nazgul came back, that puts PiQLiQ back at #6 and therefore out of the league.

I hope that illustrates both sides of the league change.

lol, thank you. :p
Cikop
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland28 Posts
February 02 2011 17:14 GMT
#655
+ Show Spoiler +

On February 03 2011 01:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


As long as those top 2% stayed in the top 2%, yes. If one of them remained active but wasn't winning as often as someone rising up from Diamond such that the Diamond player reached the top 2% and crossed into that Master threshold, he would be replaced.

Your activity doesn't really matter as much as the activity levels of existing players. Take these two scenarios as an example:

Let's say there's a Top 5 league and it consists of Nazgul, Ret, Nony, Jinro, and HuK. They're all super top level players on their imaginary server. Now let's say PiQLiQ is down there in the #6 position and he just can't catch up to any of them. Suddenly Nazgul, who was in the #1 spot, quits the game to go hang out with Eriador on a camping adventure. After a period of time, he would go inactive, and PiQLiQ, on his very next game after Nazgul is no longer declared active, would move up into the Top 5. PiQLiQ's overall skill hasn't changed, and the relative skill levels of the TL players hasn't changed, but a spot opened up in Master and he got promoted because he was next in line.

Nazgul returns from his camping adventure with Eriador, which was actually studying the ancient secrets of Garimto in the Peaks of Baekdu. He hasn't lost any skill and so when he returns to SC2 he is still razor sharp. As soon as he plays his first game, he's still in the #1 spot, and even though PiQLiQ is active and plays 100 games a day, Nazgul's skill level is higher and so he returns to joining that Top 5 league. Because Nazgul came back, that puts PiQLiQ back at #6 and therefore out of the league.

I hope that illustrates both sides of the league change.




Thats a realy good explanation. Maybe you should add that to the OP.
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 17:22:22
February 02 2011 17:21 GMT
#656
On February 02 2011 11:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2011 11:49 oesis wrote:
You can be demoted out of masters league, and re-promoted into it, it happened to me, you just wont necessarily be put back into same division.


Side note, I don't understand why you would do this. I saw your other thread on the matter. Your new division isn't any easier than your old one because there are no division tiers in Master league.


I think he means easier in terms of other people, not in terms of like Class E in diamond. The reason it would likely (but not necessarily) be easier is that if you got into an early masters division it would likely be with a lot of good mass gamers, but the later divisions would be less likely (but not guaranteed not to) have as many pro gamers. I think it's very likely (but I have not verified), that there is a correlation between later divisions and average rating of top 10 players and I bet the much later division have a much lower average typically.

edit: quoted wrong post, fixed
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 02 2011 17:32 GMT
#657
On February 03 2011 02:21 MoreFaSho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2011 11:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On February 02 2011 11:49 oesis wrote:
You can be demoted out of masters league, and re-promoted into it, it happened to me, you just wont necessarily be put back into same division.


Side note, I don't understand why you would do this. I saw your other thread on the matter. Your new division isn't any easier than your old one because there are no division tiers in Master league.


I think he means easier in terms of other people, not in terms of like Class E in diamond. The reason it would likely (but not necessarily) be easier is that if you got into an early masters division it would likely be with a lot of good mass gamers, but the later divisions would be less likely (but not guaranteed not to) have as many pro gamers. I think it's very likely (but I have not verified), that there is a correlation between later divisions and average rating of top 10 players and I bet the much later division have a much lower average typically.

edit: quoted wrong post, fixed


I guess it makes sense in that context, but it doesn't follow because everyone just uses SC2Ranks for Master league due to no tiering. Well... whatever =)
Moderator
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 18:14:12
February 02 2011 18:13 GMT
#658
dunno if that is known but just saw this blue post(kapselus) in eu forums:


We are planning on adding a master league for 2v2, when it becomes popular in eSports. However, our developers will still discuss the possibility of opening it up earlier.


http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1622865644#13

maybe you want to add this to the op. maybe not. just wanted to drop it ~



and love your little explanation story. made me smile :D
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 02 2011 18:21 GMT
#659
Thanks, that is good info to add to the OP. I guess that means they're going to wait and see if any Proleague-style tournaments open up and whether they're popular? GSTL in a Proleague format maybe?
Moderator
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2573 Posts
February 02 2011 18:22 GMT
#660
On February 02 2011 11:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2011 11:49 oesis wrote:
You can be demoted out of masters league, and re-promoted into it, it happened to me, you just wont necessarily be put back into same division.


Side note, I don't understand why you would do this. I saw your other thread on the matter. Your new division isn't any easier than your old one because there are no division tiers in Master league.


I guess it might be working out the way he wanted if he did it on purpose. He is now #1 in the new division I just got into.
SovSov
Profile Joined September 2010
United States755 Posts
February 03 2011 10:40 GMT
#661
On February 03 2011 01:34 SDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


Active players have to do with every league. So if the total number of active playes goes up, then slots for every league will be made. Master has 2% of (top) active players in the same sense that bronze has 20% of (bottom) active players.

Inactive players are also playing though, they can play everyday and still be inactive, so they also deserve to have a slot in some league, right? Active players will dictate the boundaries for leagues, and then inactive players just need to cross it and position there confortable so the system promotes them.

You can't ignore that the server has "total players" and that total players are made of active and inactive players. Being inactive doesn't mean that you don't play for X time, but that you have a X bonus pool, which means someone can play every single day and still be inactive cause of the huge amount of bonus pool. (if you play only 1 game every day chances are you won't spend all your bonus points, ever, they'll just accumulate at infinite, so you'll be inactive forever.)

Is that really true? Because people get promoted into Diamond (like myself) and Masters with low amounts of games played and high bonus pool.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 03 2011 16:20 GMT
#662
On February 03 2011 19:40 SovSov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 01:34 SDream wrote:
On February 03 2011 01:14 SovSov wrote:
Hello Excalibur, I have a couple of questions for you..

Ok, so Masters is the Top 2% of ACTIVE players. Does this mean that if those same Top 2% players stayed active then no one would be able to get into Masters unless someone gets demoted first? (I'd assume this to be true for all leagues if every player was active all the time).

Which leads me to my next question..

In theory doesn't playing ladder more (staying active) increases your chance of getting promoted? Since the Top 2% of active players in November might not be as strong as the October ones, which would mean Master League actually fluctuates in skill level depending on who is active?


Active players have to do with every league. So if the total number of active playes goes up, then slots for every league will be made. Master has 2% of (top) active players in the same sense that bronze has 20% of (bottom) active players.

Inactive players are also playing though, they can play everyday and still be inactive, so they also deserve to have a slot in some league, right? Active players will dictate the boundaries for leagues, and then inactive players just need to cross it and position there confortable so the system promotes them.

You can't ignore that the server has "total players" and that total players are made of active and inactive players. Being inactive doesn't mean that you don't play for X time, but that you have a X bonus pool, which means someone can play every single day and still be inactive cause of the huge amount of bonus pool. (if you play only 1 game every day chances are you won't spend all your bonus points, ever, they'll just accumulate at infinite, so you'll be inactive forever.)

Is that really true? Because people get promoted into Diamond (like myself) and Masters with low amounts of games played and high bonus pool.


That's why we think you're not considered inactive unless you fail to fulfill both of those activity requirements (not spending 90 a week and not going above X remaining bonus pool).
Moderator
BlackMesa
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Kenya338 Posts
February 03 2011 19:47 GMT
#663
I haven't laddered in a long time and yesterday I started again with a bp of 1500 and ratings of 1000. After 20 or so games, winning more than 80% of them. I was 1500 with bp of about 1250. Then I read your post saying that you can only be promoted if your bp is less than a certain value. Is this true, and will I have to play a ton of games to decrease my bp to get into Masters?
Need a Light
Predateur
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada79 Posts
February 03 2011 19:51 GMT
#664
I think i'm on the borderline (Barbu.255)

Currently #1 on my division with 2900ish points
Faced 4 masters so far and won 3 of them but I sometimes loose to 2800+ diamond so the system is probably waiting...

Good luck to you guys !
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 03 2011 20:07 GMT
#665
On February 04 2011 04:47 BlackMesa wrote:
I haven't laddered in a long time and yesterday I started again with a bp of 1500 and ratings of 1000. After 20 or so games, winning more than 80% of them. I was 1500 with bp of about 1250. Then I read your post saying that you can only be promoted if your bp is less than a certain value. Is this true, and will I have to play a ton of games to decrease my bp to get into Masters?


No, that is not accurate. Promotion occurs independently of your active status. You can be promoted even if you are inactive, but you are not counted among the active population. You get promoted based on the active status of your opponents.
Moderator
Deleted User 109835
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
629 Posts
February 04 2011 20:21 GMT
#666
--- Nuked ---
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 04 2011 20:42 GMT
#667
On February 05 2011 05:21 Vezex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2011 04:51 Predateur wrote:
I think i'm on the borderline (Barbu.255)

Currently #1 on my division with 2900ish points
Faced 4 masters so far and won 3 of them but I sometimes loose to 2800+ diamond so the system is probably waiting...

Good luck to you guys !



in the same boat man over 3k points in diamond, about to break into the top 10 (of diamond) in NA but still no promo

been beating master league players (some favored some not)

Is it possible at some point that master league will be "full" and that people like me and Predateur would have to wait for other players to go inactive or be demoted regardless of our MMR?


Again, no. You could just get higher up than existing Master league players and get promoted once you cross that confidence threshold.
Moderator
Deleted User 109835
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
629 Posts
February 04 2011 21:19 GMT
#668
--- Nuked ---
ssregitoss
Profile Joined September 2004
Turkey241 Posts
February 04 2011 21:31 GMT
#669
me and my friend after reached 3060 elo points prompted to master leage.
escobari
Profile Joined July 2010
Finland192 Posts
February 07 2011 16:36 GMT
#670
I friggin finally got promoted, had 3,1k points. Seeing sc2ranks there are 4,6k people in master now, about the same amount as when I got promoted to diamond in the summer.... lulz. Which means I'm not getting any better and blizzard should stop adding useless leagues every ½y.
Simmtron
Profile Joined October 2010
United States47 Posts
February 07 2011 17:23 GMT
#671
I wish you could see how close you are to getting promoted. I'm sitting at ~3.1k Diamond and have been consistently beating players in Masters. I even show up as favored against some of the Masters I play.
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
February 07 2011 17:35 GMT
#672
On February 03 2011 03:13 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
dunno if that is known but just saw this blue post(kapselus) in eu forums:


Show nested quote +
We are planning on adding a master league for 2v2, when it becomes popular in eSports. However, our developers will still discuss the possibility of opening it up earlier.


http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1622865644#13


I hope they do this! My buddy and I are top 100 world in 2v2 and we were hoping to have a spiffy star, but no... :<
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
LetoAtreides82
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1188 Posts
February 07 2011 17:49 GMT
#673
On February 08 2011 01:36 escobari wrote:
I friggin finally got promoted, had 3,1k points. Seeing sc2ranks there are 4,6k people in master now, about the same amount as when I got promoted to diamond in the summer.... lulz. Which means I'm not getting any better and blizzard should stop adding useless leagues every ½y.


Well Diamond in EU now has around 36k players, so you being in a league with under 5k players has to mean something don't you think?
The spice must flow
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
February 07 2011 18:23 GMT
#674
I'm working on getting promoted, I'll try to keep tabs every few games to help your information gathering. But so far:


2832 Diamond with 115 Bonus Pool
I've faced a total of 3 or 4 Masters I believe, in the 2400-2600 range.
My division is UED Charlie, no idea what the bias is.
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Kwanny
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany222 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-07 18:38:04
February 07 2011 18:29 GMT
#675
I dunno if it helps, but here is some information
I got myself a second account, I had a 15 winstreak before and while being in diamond and before the patch. I had I think 44 to 16. I was already playing Diamonds while being in platin. After the patch, I won 1 game and got promoted to Masters and had 700 points, while the rest was probably bonus pool.

I would think that it is definitely about the MRR. Right now I am playing vs 2800 Masters on that account, and I played probably not more than 6 games after being promoted to Masters.

EDIT: Read through the last some posts.
I guess, the Master Leagues weren't full yet so it was quite easy to get into.
BlackMesa
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Kenya338 Posts
February 07 2011 19:03 GMT
#676
Yeah i've been playing straight masters for a while and still no promotion.
Need a Light
Simmtron
Profile Joined October 2010
United States47 Posts
February 09 2011 02:36 GMT
#677
Just got into Masters league after a 7-8 win streak against Master players. I had ~3.1k points in Diamond and now I'm at 2690ish Masters.
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
February 09 2011 02:54 GMT
#678
On February 08 2011 01:36 escobari wrote:
I friggin finally got promoted, had 3,1k points. Seeing sc2ranks there are 4,6k people in master now, about the same amount as when I got promoted to diamond in the summer.... lulz. Which means I'm not getting any better and blizzard should stop adding useless leagues every ½y.


Master League is far from useless.. it doesn't matter that there's still a huge gap between top of the top and low masters, the point is that now we don't have to fuss around with division modifiers. If I want to know where I stand on NA, I just hope on sc2ranks and bam, there I am, #1340 or whatever
Chrysalis.145
escobari
Profile Joined July 2010
Finland192 Posts
February 09 2011 09:44 GMT
#679
On February 09 2011 11:54 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Master League is far from useless.. it doesn't matter that there's still a huge gap between top of the top and low masters, the point is that now we don't have to fuss around with division modifiers. If I want to know where I stand on NA, I just hope on sc2ranks and bam, there I am, #1340 or whatever


What I meant was that adding leagues to top is useless, is there going to be 40k in masters in 6months or even ~10k. Becaus in beta platinium was highest, then diamond and now master, basically blizzard is just adding leagues to "cheat" peoples egos. What I what is that people would actually drop from leagues or kicked out because inactivity.
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-09 11:45:59
February 09 2011 11:39 GMT
#680
i know this is offtopic but i like the look of the diamond better then the star...

also i got a question about the "active/inactive" thing. does this apply to players that are active purely on ladder or active on bnet in general? like if ive been playing a ton of custom games the last few months and not laddering, but i then suddenly start to play some games would i get promoted from diamond to masters if i start having a win streak against master players? or would it take significantly longer because i was not active on ladder?

i mean i am active on benet in general from play custom games/maps... just not on ladder. only got like 1xx games under my belt on ladder. so idk if its possible to get promoted to ladder with like 200 games played even tho i have heard it happening quite often.
Predateur
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada79 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-09 17:58:19
February 09 2011 15:54 GMT
#681
A new master league has been created I think,
I just got promoted from 3150 diamond to 2700 master in this league :
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/419413/1/Barbu/

Seems like this divison is a bit lackluster, I don't see any name I know and i'm not a top master player for sure. Finally got a new shinny icon thought

edit : nvm I see tasteless is there hopefully he wont make the tasteless build vs me...
vdek
Profile Joined May 2010
United States267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-09 19:46:40
February 09 2011 19:44 GMT
#682
On February 09 2011 18:44 escobari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2011 11:54 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Master League is far from useless.. it doesn't matter that there's still a huge gap between top of the top and low masters, the point is that now we don't have to fuss around with division modifiers. If I want to know where I stand on NA, I just hope on sc2ranks and bam, there I am, #1340 or whatever


What I meant was that adding leagues to top is useless, is there going to be 40k in masters in 6months or even ~10k. Becaus in beta platinium was highest, then diamond and now master, basically blizzard is just adding leagues to "cheat" peoples egos. What I what is that people would actually drop from leagues or kicked out because inactivity.


Masters league is the top 2% of active players while Diamond is the 18% below masters, that's all it will be. How many players are actually in it is a function of the current active player pool.

In Beta, Platinum was the highest because there was no diamond or masters league...
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
February 09 2011 21:42 GMT
#683
On February 10 2011 00:54 Predateur wrote:
A new master league has been created I think,
I just got promoted from 3150 diamond to 2700 master in this league :
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/419413/1/Barbu/

Seems like this divison is a bit lackluster, I don't see any name I know and i'm not a top master player for sure. Finally got a new shinny icon thought

edit : nvm I see tasteless is there hopefully he wont make the tasteless build vs me...


not to mention Dimaga's NA account....
Chrysalis.145
Predateur
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada79 Posts
February 10 2011 00:20 GMT
#684
On February 10 2011 06:42 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2011 00:54 Predateur wrote:
A new master league has been created I think,
I just got promoted from 3150 diamond to 2700 master in this league :
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/419413/1/Barbu/

Seems like this divison is a bit lackluster, I don't see any name I know and i'm not a top master player for sure. Finally got a new shinny icon thought

edit : nvm I see tasteless is there hopefully he wont make the tasteless build vs me...


not to mention Dimaga's NA account....


oh great he wasn't there this morning, this is getting interesting :D

****
Barbu.255
ChrysaliS_
Profile Joined January 2011
United States261 Posts
February 10 2011 00:23 GMT
#685
nevermind, seems he is a fake . you do have FXOBoss though, who although not too great himself is the leader of FXO clan
Chrysalis.145
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 00:50:39
February 10 2011 00:50 GMT
#686
Hope this information helps you: Just got promoted to masters, had a 57 bonus pool left and was a 3,026 diamond before promotion, now have 46 pool left after promotion match. Am now a 2645 Masters, here's a link to my Sc2 ranks http://sc2ranks.com/us/678710/ConfusedCrib Hope this information helps you find league cut offs, ect.! Was my 388th game btw. Also was rank 1 of division Warbringer Chi
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
TerraTron
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada137 Posts
February 17 2011 02:59 GMT
#687
How many games did you win in a row to get to masters? I seem to be getting masters like 2-3 times then losing and getting diamonds again
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 21 2011 17:17 GMT
#688
Question... I am a tanked 12 2400 diamond protoss with almost 700 bonus pool pts at the moment, I've been winning more and more now (ratio wise) and beating 3000ish diamonds, and rank 1 diamonds, and yesterday I faced my first Master league opponent yesterday and won. My question is around how many games I'll have to play (win) to get into master? I know there isn't a def answer, but what do you think?

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.
Channel NYC
Jerax
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada189 Posts
February 21 2011 17:22 GMT
#689
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 21 2011 17:32 GMT
#690
On February 22 2011 02:22 Jerax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.


Well, not exactly. The Favored indicator only shows how many points you stand to earn or lose based on the match outcome, and that's determined by your points versus your opponent's MMR. If it's constantly Even, then the opponents that you're facing -- despite their points -- have MMRs that are close to your points. That's generally an indication that your points are an accurate representation of your MMR (since generally you are paired against players near your MMR) if you were to factor out bonus pool and any division offsets, particularly if it's happening that frequently.
Moderator
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 21 2011 17:32 GMT
#691
On February 22 2011 02:22 Jerax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.


Ya I see what u mean there that it's all about the hidden MMR, but it's hard to believe that I am still evenly matched with a player that only has like 700 pts in diamond and about 50 wins and 45 losses. So I am guessing this player has around the same MMR as me, but look at his win/loss ratio... (I know league points doesn't count).
Channel NYC
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 21 2011 17:39 GMT
#692
On February 22 2011 02:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 02:22 Jerax wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.


Well, not exactly. The Favored indicator only shows how many points you stand to earn or lose based on the match outcome, and that's determined by your points versus your opponent's MMR. If it's constantly Even, then the opponents that you're facing -- despite their points -- have MMRs that are close to your points. That's generally an indication that your points are an accurate representation of your MMR (since generally you are paired against players near your MMR) if you were to factor out bonus pool and any division offsets, particularly if it's happening that frequently.


Ahh... nicely explained. Btw, do you know roughly how many more games I'll have to win to get promoted? (note that I've been facing Master, 3000+ diamonds now).
Also, what if I suddenly lose to a platium player right now? Will it drop my MMR by a lot? Will I have to play a lot more games to catch it back up?

Thanks.
Channel NYC
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 21 2011 17:43 GMT
#693
On February 22 2011 02:39 Prissy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 02:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:22 Jerax wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.


Well, not exactly. The Favored indicator only shows how many points you stand to earn or lose based on the match outcome, and that's determined by your points versus your opponent's MMR. If it's constantly Even, then the opponents that you're facing -- despite their points -- have MMRs that are close to your points. That's generally an indication that your points are an accurate representation of your MMR (since generally you are paired against players near your MMR) if you were to factor out bonus pool and any division offsets, particularly if it's happening that frequently.


Ahh... nicely explained. Btw, do you know roughly how many more games I'll have to win to get promoted? (note that I've been facing Master, 3000+ diamonds now).
Also, what if I suddenly lose to a platium player right now? Will it drop my MMR by a lot? Will I have to play a lot more games to catch it back up?

Thanks.


Well that all depends. If the Plat player has been playing against Diamond/Master-level players, then there would be no huge impact on your MMR if you were to lose because his MMR would be around where yours is now. If, on the other hand, you had been staring at Expanding Search for quite some time and the first person it could match you with was a Plat player who didn't have a track record where he should normally be matched against you, then you would probably lose quite a bit more MMR. I can't really speculate on how many more games you would need to play, most notably because it's going to depend on the quality of players you face.
Moderator
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 21 2011 17:47 GMT
#694
On February 22 2011 02:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 02:39 Prissy wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:22 Jerax wrote:
On February 22 2011 02:17 Prissy wrote:

By the way: all the high level, and low diamond players that I've facing right now are evenly matched which is weird to me. no matter if it's master/ high diamond/ or low diamond.



That's because whether you are favored or your opponent is favored has nothing to do with how high your points are, its based on whos mmr is higher.


Well, not exactly. The Favored indicator only shows how many points you stand to earn or lose based on the match outcome, and that's determined by your points versus your opponent's MMR. If it's constantly Even, then the opponents that you're facing -- despite their points -- have MMRs that are close to your points. That's generally an indication that your points are an accurate representation of your MMR (since generally you are paired against players near your MMR) if you were to factor out bonus pool and any division offsets, particularly if it's happening that frequently.


Ahh... nicely explained. Btw, do you know roughly how many more games I'll have to win to get promoted? (note that I've been facing Master, 3000+ diamonds now).
Also, what if I suddenly lose to a platium player right now? Will it drop my MMR by a lot? Will I have to play a lot more games to catch it back up?

Thanks.


Well that all depends. If the Plat player has been playing against Diamond/Master-level players, then there would be no huge impact on your MMR if you were to lose because his MMR would be around where yours is now. If, on the other hand, you had been staring at Expanding Search for quite some time and the first person it could match you with was a Plat player who didn't have a track record where he should normally be matched against you, then you would probably lose quite a bit more MMR. I can't really speculate on how many more games you would need to play, most notably because it's going to depend on the quality of players you face.


it's good to know that the amount of time spent on Searching for game matters too! Thanks for the tips~
Channel NYC
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 18:09:56
February 21 2011 18:08 GMT
#695
Just my personal experience - For awhile I was bouncing back and forth (probably 1/4 was a masters player) between diamond 2900+ players and Master 2600+ players with the masters players almost always being slightly favored. Eventually they stopped saying slightly favored, then all of a sudden the game matched me up against 900 masters and over 8 or so games crawled its way up masters league players until around 2700 ( about where I would be placed) and I won all of these matches because low masters players can be significantly < high diamond. Then I went something like 2-2 against 2700ish masters and was promoted.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#696
On February 22 2011 03:08 confusedcrib wrote:
Just my personal experience - For awhile I was bouncing back and forth (probably 1/4 was a masters player) between diamond 2900+ players and Master 2600+ players with the masters players almost always being slightly favored. Eventually they stopped saying slightly favored, then all of a sudden the game matched me up against 900 masters and over 8 or so games crawled its way up masters league players until around 2700 ( about where I would be placed) and I won all of these matches because low masters players can be significantly < high diamond. Then I went something like 2-2 against 2700ish masters and was promoted.

Very nice to know... Can you remember how many games you played between VSing the first master - promotion? Thanks
Channel NYC
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
February 22 2011 04:45 GMT
#697
the bug where you can't get promoted without losses seems to still be in effect :/
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
February 22 2011 11:18 GMT
#698
From SC2ranks.com it seems that about 450 points that do not come from the bonus pool are needed to advance to masters. There are very few active players with ore than that and a lot of active players between 400 and 450. This makes it seem to me that you can take this value as an indicator on when you will advance.
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
February 22 2011 12:45 GMT
#699
Where can we find the total bonus pool?
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
February 22 2011 14:29 GMT
#700
On February 22 2011 21:45 Twistacles wrote:
Where can we find the total bonus pool?


I look at one of my teams that have never spent a single bonus point:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/54441/2/SDream/ladder/31299
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#701
On February 22 2011 20:18 Sandermatt wrote:
From SC2ranks.com it seems that about 450 points that do not come from the bonus pool are needed to advance to masters. There are very few active players with ore than that and a lot of active players between 400 and 450. This makes it seem to me that you can take this value as an indicator on when you will advance.


What do you mean by that? Most people would need less than 450 bonus pool to get promoted to master?
Channel NYC
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 16:18:42
February 22 2011 16:18 GMT
#702
Most people will need:

10 points for confidence.
63 points for moving average to get into the right average.
150 points for the league jump.
63 points for each tier he is bellow the first tier (S rank 63.0 = 0; A rank 63.1 = 63 etc).

The moving average is the one that is most difficult to give a number, but I think 63 is good enough for most players.

Edit: Ps: this is not a confirmed fact, just my hipothesys.
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 06:04:04
February 24 2011 03:18 GMT
#703
Currently sitting at 3270 with 50 bonus pool. Facing mostly 2800~ masters right now. I'll let you know what happens.

Edit: 3.3k dia lol, this is getting silly
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 25 2011 16:54 GMT
#704
On February 24 2011 12:18 Twistacles wrote:
Currently sitting at 3270 with 50 bonus pool. Facing mostly 2800~ masters right now. I'll let you know what happens.

Edit: 3.3k dia lol, this is getting silly

Ya... I see a lot of people (rank 1,2,3..etc diamond) with 1000+ wins and losses and still not being able to get promote to master due to their win/loss ratio..
Channel NYC
pooopies
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada19 Posts
February 25 2011 17:49 GMT
#705
Hm, I was promoted to masters with ~600 bonus pool still, I often play 2800~ masters and am sitting at about 2300 going up
pewpew
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
February 25 2011 20:49 GMT
#706
On February 26 2011 02:49 pooopies wrote:
Hm, I was promoted to masters with ~600 bonus pool still, I often play 2800~ masters and am sitting at about 2300 going up


Nice.. Congrats... how many masters did you played before u got promoted? did you usually win against them?
Channel NYC
20Nation
Profile Joined February 2005
United States258 Posts
February 25 2011 21:48 GMT
#707
I got promoted to masters at 600 Diamond
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
February 26 2011 02:29 GMT
#708
I just got promoted to masters, was at roughly 3330 Diamond and was bumped to 2909 Masters.
Division was UED Charlie
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Jonas :)
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States511 Posts
February 26 2011 02:50 GMT
#709
I'm at 3100 diamond with 45 more wins than losses, surely that means masters is on the way? it's pretty annoying, though, I've been in the top 3 of my diamond division for 2 weeks or so now

I'm only playing like 2 games a day, so I guess I just have to play more until I am promoted?
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
February 26 2011 05:17 GMT
#710
On February 26 2011 11:50 Jonas wrote:
I'm at 3100 diamond with 45 more wins than losses, surely that means masters is on the way? it's pretty annoying, though, I've been in the top 3 of my diamond division for 2 weeks or so now

I'm only playing like 2 games a day, so I guess I just have to play more until I am promoted?


Yup. I've been top 1-4 Diamond for about 2 weeks and it refused to promote me
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:46:02
February 26 2011 07:45 GMT
#711
So with the coming of grandmaster league, may i know what exactly determines top 200. It is said that it is just points. Is there an MMR cutoff? I have seen like the 5th player in a division get into the top 200 but not the 1-4 and i checked immediately after so it's not like he dropped afterwards or the other guy climbed.

And let's take this sea list.
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/124093#blog

There are guys from diamond in there although sea has about 500 masters. Look at guy no 198
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/143733/1/Saglornagain/

He is diamond and not like he was just demoted. He has been there since August and 2500 diamond. So chances are he is there because of his MMR? Because his points doesnt seem like it is high enough. And he has not played 1v1 Ladder since the list was released.

Sorry if this has been answered before. Tried my best but couldn't find it.
m00se
Profile Joined December 2010
United States41 Posts
February 26 2011 10:44 GMT
#712
http://sc2ranks.com/us/355629/moose

rank 1 diamond in my division

rank 11 diamond in NA with 3310 points...

I have a feeling I am moving up very very soon.
jstar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada568 Posts
March 01 2011 05:10 GMT
#713
Was at 3367 then got promoted to 2949 after next win

3367 was 1st highest active Diamond in NA and 5th highest in the world in points - bonus.

Hope that helps.
SiguR
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada2039 Posts
March 01 2011 05:14 GMT
#714
I got promoted to masters at about 2000 points in diamond (about rank 18 in the division). I was relatively inactive since masters league was released with only about 100 games played total. I powered up to about 170 wins and 142 losses or something and it bumped me up to masters at about 2k points.
jstar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada568 Posts
March 01 2011 05:19 GMT
#715
Yea its points - bonus that matters, not points
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
March 04 2011 15:57 GMT
#716
Excalibur_Z:
Do you think it will be harder and harder to get promoted to Master league (ie. when Master league was first introduced VS now)?
Channel NYC
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
March 04 2011 17:03 GMT
#717
On March 05 2011 00:57 Prissy wrote:
Excalibur_Z:
Do you think it will be harder and harder to get promoted to Master league (ie. when Master league was first introduced VS now)?


The requirements change based on who is playing the game. The people at the top tend to play the most (they devoted enough time to become the best, why stop there) whereas people near the bottom kind of fall inactive. So, I would say that unless patch 1.2 caused a large resurgence of activity in the lower leagues that continues even today, it will probably be tougher to get into Master league now than it was on Day 1.
Moderator
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
March 04 2011 20:54 GMT
#718
On March 05 2011 02:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2011 00:57 Prissy wrote:
Excalibur_Z:
Do you think it will be harder and harder to get promoted to Master league (ie. when Master league was first introduced VS now)?


The requirements change based on who is playing the game. The people at the top tend to play the most (they devoted enough time to become the best, why stop there) whereas people near the bottom kind of fall inactive. So, I would say that unless patch 1.2 caused a large resurgence of activity in the lower leagues that continues even today, it will probably be tougher to get into Master league now than it was on Day 1.


I think you are right about that... It feels like you need more wins (against better players) to get promoted.
Channel NYC
TurpinOS
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1223 Posts
March 04 2011 21:37 GMT
#719
I see a lot of high diamond players not getting promoted at all, in my case, Ive been sitting at around 1.3-1.5k diamond 1 month + ago when I stopped playing. I came back a couple of days ago with 2000+ bonus pool, after 4-5 games I got instantly promoted to Masters (and no, it wasnt my first win of these games, maybe the 2nd or 3rd). Im not too sure how my promotion in Masters fits in the mechanism posted in the OP.
http://eve.znaor.hr/pimpmydomi/
RukKus
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
March 05 2011 04:17 GMT
#720
I apologize if this is a bit off topic, but it does involve my quest to get into Master League!
(For the record I have read all of your documentation on League and promotions, Excalibur, well done!)
I am a 3,100 Diamond... most likely in a very low division tier. BNet seems quite sporadic in pairing me up vs people... it ranges from 1500 Diamond to 3,200 Diamond! It has not paired me vs Master League yet ... but the "Favored"/"Slightly Favored" doesn't seem to coincide with visible points (due to MMR). Is this because it does not have enough confidence in my ability vs higher skill levels? Perhaps my sigma is in a funk and still does not know my skill level for certain .
It seems to pair me up with ppl who have on-the-rise MMR and lower point totals... My win % is not stellar, 51.5%

I'd like to think that I'm Master League quality; however, I would also like to think that I'd need to be beating Master Leaguers in order for BNet to consider me worthy. I just fear it'll never pair me vs Master Leaguers. Is it because my win % isn't high enough?
Micro... Kill Kill! Macro ... Build Build! ... Micro ... Kill Kill! Macro ... Build Build... Stim...RAAAAAGE!
m00se
Profile Joined December 2010
United States41 Posts
March 06 2011 05:12 GMT
#721
On February 26 2011 19:44 m00se wrote:
http://sc2ranks.com/us/355629/moose

rank 1 diamond in my division

rank 11 diamond in NA with 3310 points...

I have a feeling I am moving up very very soon.



just got in masters with 3000 points.

i got in while vs diamonds and masters players
Prissy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
March 17 2011 15:58 GMT
#722
On March 05 2011 13:17 RukKus wrote:
I apologize if this is a bit off topic, but it does involve my quest to get into Master League!
(For the record I have read all of your documentation on League and promotions, Excalibur, well done!)
I am a 3,100 Diamond... most likely in a very low division tier. BNet seems quite sporadic in pairing me up vs people... it ranges from 1500 Diamond to 3,200 Diamond! It has not paired me vs Master League yet ... but the "Favored"/"Slightly Favored" doesn't seem to coincide with visible points (due to MMR). Is this because it does not have enough confidence in my ability vs higher skill levels? Perhaps my sigma is in a funk and still does not know my skill level for certain .
It seems to pair me up with ppl who have on-the-rise MMR and lower point totals... My win % is not stellar, 51.5%

I'd like to think that I'm Master League quality; however, I would also like to think that I'd need to be beating Master Leaguers in order for BNet to consider me worthy. I just fear it'll never pair me vs Master Leaguers. Is it because my win % isn't high enough?


Some winning streaks will get u to play Masters/high diamonds.
Channel NYC
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
March 29 2011 16:27 GMT
#723
does anyone know what the final bonuspool on EU is?
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
March 29 2011 16:30 GMT
#724
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
March 29 2011 17:20 GMT
#725
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
March 29 2011 17:24 GMT
#726
On March 30 2011 02:20 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.


Really? It was 3150 for US/LA.
Moderator
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
March 29 2011 17:32 GMT
#727
On March 30 2011 02:24 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 02:20 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.


Really? It was 3150 for US/LA.


Yes, I'm absolutely sure. This one for example has 3158 points:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1089402/1/seawolf/ladder/11687#current-rank

My own match history also ended up with 3158 points.

I tried recently to verify that bonus pool increases exactly 12 points per 24 hours, but I found several places where it didn't. I can't be sure there aren't any errors in my match history, so I didn't bother to examine it further.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
March 29 2011 17:42 GMT
#728
On March 30 2011 02:32 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 02:24 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:20 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.


Really? It was 3150 for US/LA.


Yes, I'm absolutely sure. This one for example has 3158 points:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1089402/1/seawolf/ladder/11687#current-rank

My own match history also ended up with 3158 points.

I tried recently to verify that bonus pool increases exactly 12 points per 24 hours, but I found several places where it didn't. I can't be sure there aren't any errors in my match history, so I didn't bother to examine it further.


It's 1 per 112 minutes, so while it's close to 12 per 24h, it's not exact =)
Moderator
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
March 29 2011 17:49 GMT
#729
On March 30 2011 02:42 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 02:32 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:24 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:20 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.


Really? It was 3150 for US/LA.


Yes, I'm absolutely sure. This one for example has 3158 points:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1089402/1/seawolf/ladder/11687#current-rank

My own match history also ended up with 3158 points.

I tried recently to verify that bonus pool increases exactly 12 points per 24 hours, but I found several places where it didn't. I can't be sure there aren't any errors in my match history, so I didn't bother to examine it further.


It's 1 per 112 minutes, so while it's close to 12 per 24h, it's not exact =)


Argh! Why are they toying with us?
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
March 29 2011 17:51 GMT
#730
On March 30 2011 02:49 Mendelfist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 02:42 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:32 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:24 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On March 30 2011 02:20 Mendelfist wrote:
On March 30 2011 01:30 SDream wrote:
Season 1 had 3150 total bonus pool.


3158 to be exact.


Really? It was 3150 for US/LA.


Yes, I'm absolutely sure. This one for example has 3158 points:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1089402/1/seawolf/ladder/11687#current-rank

My own match history also ended up with 3158 points.

I tried recently to verify that bonus pool increases exactly 12 points per 24 hours, but I found several places where it didn't. I can't be sure there aren't any errors in my match history, so I didn't bother to examine it further.


It's 1 per 112 minutes, so while it's close to 12 per 24h, it's not exact =)


Argh! Why are they toying with us?


They probably have bets on these things: "how long it'll take to they to discovery that ...?".
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
March 29 2011 23:04 GMT
#731
3158 seems to be the right number for EU
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
May 01 2011 08:30 GMT
#732
hey really sorry for bumping this and if this is a retarded question

but is it possible to get placed in masters league from your one placement match?
lazydino
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada331 Posts
May 01 2011 08:33 GMT
#733
On May 01 2011 17:30 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
hey really sorry for bumping this and if this is a retarded question

but is it possible to get placed in masters league from your one placement match?


As long as your mmr is high enough.
"I have this moron thing that I do, it's called thinking" - George Carlin
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-01 08:46:35
May 01 2011 08:43 GMT
#734
hahah that's so funny

i just played my placement match for season 2 and i havent played in months and i just cheesed some guy and it wasnt even a good cheese because i never cheesed in s1 and it horribly failed and i lost and it promoted me to masters

epic, i coulda just left at the start and gotten promoted rofl

the weird thing is the guy i lost to was in diamond =O
sTYleZerG-eX
Profile Joined January 2010
Mexico473 Posts
June 30 2011 04:54 GMT
#735
On January 12 2011 09:07 stupidhydro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 09:03 ExO_ wrote:
So assuming its taking everybody top 2% of the region, where (roughly) does that put the Diamond point cut-off


"Master league promotion criteria is the same as any other league. If the moving average of your hidden matchmaking rating stabilizes within the confines of the Master league, you will be promoted."

Just like other promotions it doesn't depend on points but hidden ranking. I was 1250 diamond but 1.3k bonus pool but I got promoted after one game... which i assume is because my MMR is high enough and i consistently played 2.5k diamond players. I'm guessing grandmasters will be point based however.


WHAT WHAT WHAT????

Ok I need 2 know how 2 get 2 masters, because im 1 # at the top of diamond with like 1380 pts, and Im nt being promoted,.. and I have been beating all or at least great most of the diamond tops players I play vs, and I also beat like half or bit lower of the master players machine puts me vs, AND sometimes I play vs grandmasters, I rarely beat those, but sometimes I do, so wtf??
So what is "1.3k bonus pool" plz explain like if i was retarded or 5, what is the MMR?? " 2.5k diamond players" whats that??

So what can I do 2 make master happen?
How do I know when its gona happen, and how do i know if its going bad?
Aight thnx 4 help in advanced, much appreciated!!
P.S. i dont know much of all the technicalities of sc2, i just mostly know how 2 game (: zerg btw
10%
sTYleZerG-eX
Profile Joined January 2010
Mexico473 Posts
June 30 2011 05:03 GMT
#736
Ok hear I am:

http://sc2ranks.com/la/7842/alaskaRUS
10%
Fusionbomb
Profile Joined April 2010
United States25 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-30 07:08:11
June 30 2011 07:07 GMT
#737
Keep playing. Like the thread says. Seems to me that you are not playing enough masters yet to be moved up. I was in your place about a month ago, I didn't see the promotion until I was playing about 7 masters in 10 games. Just keep at it and you will move up if you truly deserve it.

Good Luck!
For Aiur!
Dance.
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States389 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-30 07:20:17
June 30 2011 07:17 GMT
#738
On June 30 2011 13:54 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2011 09:07 stupidhydro wrote:
On January 12 2011 09:03 ExO_ wrote:
So assuming its taking everybody top 2% of the region, where (roughly) does that put the Diamond point cut-off


"Master league promotion criteria is the same as any other league. If the moving average of your hidden matchmaking rating stabilizes within the confines of the Master league, you will be promoted."

Just like other promotions it doesn't depend on points but hidden ranking. I was 1250 diamond but 1.3k bonus pool but I got promoted after one game... which i assume is because my MMR is high enough and i consistently played 2.5k diamond players. I'm guessing grandmasters will be point based however.


WHAT WHAT WHAT????

Ok I need 2 know how 2 get 2 masters, because im 1 # at the top of diamond with like 1380 pts, and Im nt being promoted,.. and I have been beating all or at least great most of the diamond tops players I play vs, and I also beat like half or bit lower of the master players machine puts me vs, AND sometimes I play vs grandmasters, I rarely beat those, but sometimes I do, so wtf??
So what is "1.3k bonus pool" plz explain like if i was retarded or 5, what is the MMR?? " 2.5k diamond players" whats that??

So what can I do 2 make master happen?
How do I know when its gona happen, and how do i know if its going bad?
Aight thnx 4 help in advanced, much appreciated!!
P.S. i dont know much of all the technicalities of sc2, i just mostly know how 2 game (: zerg btw


Wow, you are so obnoxious. Do you really have to type like an illiterate 6yr old?

Edit: i know English might not be your first language, but that's no excuse to use numbers as words and have vowel-less words.
It is what it is...
sTYleZerG-eX
Profile Joined January 2010
Mexico473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-30 15:38:48
June 30 2011 15:38 GMT
#739
Aight! That makes sence Fusionbomb thnx il do (:
last question that id like an answer "2" what is the MMR?? " 2.5k diamond players" whats that??

Oh an Dance, what the fuck ever man, ur comment helps in no possible way
10%
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
June 30 2011 15:40 GMT
#740
On July 01 2011 00:38 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Aight! That makes sence Fusionbomb thnx il do (:
last question that id like an answer "2" what is the MMR?? " 2.5k diamond players" whats that??

Oh an Dance, what the fuck ever man, ur comment helps in no possible way


Read this thread and you'll understand more clearly: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
Moderator
sTYleZerG-eX
Profile Joined January 2010
Mexico473 Posts
July 05 2011 05:04 GMT
#741
Ahhh! NVM this!!! I am IN!!! I am a Master (: !!! thnx tho,
lol I just found the trick, the secret of how to become a master...
u want 2 know how? ..
This is for all diamonds that want to get to masters:
"Youre doing so great, you just have to..."
"...Keep winning."
"So keep winning!"
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