EPTMap Pool killing interest in SC2/esports - Page 7
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
But keep in mind that Starcraft 2 was designed with short, action-packed games in mind, because that is what Blizzard thought would attract people to the game. Hopefully Blizzard will design new units in the expansion packs and new maps to greater emphasize the sort of positional play and unit control you will find in BW. | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1240 Posts
On January 07 2011 14:59 proot wrote: The thing is, new maps can shift balance, provoke new ideas and play styles. They're a requirement for a RTS game, especially one that has a terrible foundation of maps to begin with. I wholeheartedly agree with this from proot. You can certainly make the argument of "game has only been out 6 months" or whatever it is we're up to - but the fact is, even if they put more bad maps in the map pool - it's better than sitting around waiting for nothing to happen. As a player who prefers team games over 1s - the team game map pool feels like Blizzard is just playing a joke. I seriously think some times "wow, did someone make this on their lunch break?" (looking at you, Frontier). I can appreciate that Blizzard obviously understands that Team Games aren't the focus of the majority of the player base - who can blame them for that? The main issue I see in this ideal is that there have not been any changes to 1v1 maps for a while now, disregarding the upcoming change in 1.2 I for one, would be happy just to see some shitty maps come out, for Blizzard to say "hey try these on for size" and we can all run around on them and see how they go. This does not create a bad mark on Blizzards image, just because they made a shit map. It promotes the idea that they are keeping the game fresh and dynamic, which - given the fact that I am posting in this particular thread about this topic - it clearly isn't at the moment. It needs to change, it has to change - and in my humble opinion, I think that the map pool is part of the reason that SC2 hasn't exploded in Korea. The maps not changing does not promote any creativity on the part of the players - once someone picks up something special about a build/unit on the map - the rest of the player base uses it as a cookie cutter, and you have situations like now where PvP is (to me) also a joke. This means that fans don't see anything creative or imaginative, we see the same thing, every, freaking time. There are various "negative thinkers" as I like to call them - who came out after TLO started doing some crazy shit and said "eh it's not that interesting, it's risky, and he pulled it off. That's all". This may be true, it may be correct from a certain point of view - but the matter of the fact is, players like TLO and (I hate to say this, but) GuineaPig pull stuff out of a hat, and make people think "Hmm, that's actually kinda cool" and we have creative minds that come out and try different things. If the map pool doesn't change, doesn't bring different "map strat" thoughts to the table, players like TLO and other creative brains will wither away, because the "I have a solid build which works every time" players will simply beat them. I understand that yes if you have a "fundamental build that works, use it" sure - but winning is not what this is about. This is about promoting the mindset of future change, whereby a map comes out and over time things change, always for the better of the fans. Because once again to be honest - would we have esports without fans? We'd still have the games sure... but a major part of esports is the fans. Gonna stop myself from ranting now though. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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BouBou.865
Netherlands814 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
I don't expect Blizzard to adopt custom maps for their own ladder. It would be nice, but historically they have shown a great deal of stubbornness regarding ladder maps for any of their games. Luckily, chat rooms should really help in promoting custom maps by allowing people to find opponents much easier. Thus, the problem of "everyone is playing ladder maps blah" should be rectified somewhat and tournaments could then be less timid in using custom maps. | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:29 BouBou.865 wrote: I don't see how people can point at the map pool, and then say "it'll make e-sports dead". Have you forgotten BW in Europe and the USA? Oh right, there wasn't much to remember anyways. SC2 is already a bigger e-sport there, and despite the terribad maps, I think Blizzard should get some more love. What does this post even mean? They are saying that the map pool remaining as it is will "make esports dead." As in, future tense. Then you are replying that it isn't currently dead? That's honestly not even a valid response. Also, you admit IN YOUR POST that the map pool is terrible, which is the entire point of these discussions. These aren't "Do we love Blizzard" discussion, or "Is esports going to die?" discussions; they're discussions ENTIRELY about the state of the map pool and the effects of maps on the game. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:24 LunarC wrote: I don't like many of Blizzard's maps. But keep in mind that Starcraft 2 was designed with short, action-packed games in mind, because that is what Blizzard thought would attract people to the game. Hopefully Blizzard will design new units in the expansion packs and new maps to greater emphasize the sort of positional play and unit control you will find in BW. "Short, action-packed games" is an oxy-moron. Is a 4 minute marine-scv rush "action-packed"? Hardly, nor is it that interesting to watch. Is two massive 200/200 armies going at it in the middle of the map, with plenty of re-enforcements "action-packed"? Hell yes it is. Long macro games are full of small, medium, and large battles that come together to eventually decide a victor, often times not the person we were expecting to win as well. When a game never makes it past T1 units, that is as far from action-packed as it gets. I don't know a single person who watched the Boxer-Nestea championship and thought they were amazing "action-packed" games. They were short, decisive, and predictable. | ||
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chuigo
Australia93 Posts
I'm sick of it. | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1240 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:31 eviltomahawk wrote: Are there any VODs of top Koreans or top foreigners playing on custom maps? I am highly interested in seeing how they play on custom maps compared to current Blizzard maps. I don't expect Blizzard to adopt custom maps for their own ladder. It would be nice, but historically they have shown a great deal of stubbornness regarding ladder maps for any of their games. Luckily, chat rooms should really help in promoting custom maps by allowing people to find opponents much easier. Thus, the problem of "everyone is playing ladder maps blah" should be rectified somewhat and tournaments could then be less timid in using custom maps. I found this one a little while ago and casted it - however I don't' think you can call them "top pros", nevertheless, it's on a custom map. Hilariously enough, it's essentially an SC2 remake of Python. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Av8rjq794 | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
If map pool will be the same till heart of the swarm, I personally am done watching GSL/other tournies. I just do not enjoy watching stupid crap like kulas ravine, steppes, blistering sand, jungle basin etc. They are horrible horrible maps. It's just something the game needs (dynamic map pool) for me to be interested in it. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
But nobody in EG is in SKorea.... Ask yourself this Should GOMTV be at the mercy of those who do not have practice partners??? | ||
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
Stats from GSL S3: ![[image loading]](https://s3.amazonaws.com/summerloud/sc2reps/stats.jpg) | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
The funny thing is though, despite the same maps people have changed strats a bit... some strats have expanded some maps have narrowed down in terms of strats... Expanded strats: people have taken on new expansion patterns on jungle basin or worked in fast expansions where they wouldnt work on other maps narrowed strats: Scrap station PvZ you used to be able to 4 gate or 4 gate... now you have to either 4 gate or 4 gate | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:41 XXXSmOke wrote: Guys I know Idra is on EG... But nobody in EG is in SKorea.... Ask yourself this Should GOMTV be at the mercy of those who do not have practice partners??? I'm pretty sure gomtv has no plans to make their own maps (due to the same reasons as every other tournament organization). Hence it's up to blizzard and they also have no interest and expect tourneys to create maps. It's a lose-lose situation thanks to bnet 2.0 (like all efforts of bnet 2.0). Blizz - Custom maps are up to the tournaments Tournaments (mlg/gomtv) - We cant use custom maps due to bnet 2.0 and alienating players due to requiring non ladder play. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:41 greycubed wrote: Yeah the map pool makes me not watching games so much. TvZ close positions or Jungle Basin/SoW/DQ? zzzzzzz Stats from GSL S3: + Show Spoiler + For some reason I really liked Xel'naga Caverns, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Now I know why: it has the longest games played on it. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:04 a176 wrote: People will continue to argue that good maps are essential to the success of the game. I however believe that SC2 is inherently broken and it will not matter if maps are big or small - the protoss warp in mechanic. The ability to create units at virtually any point in the map completely negates any concept in map rush distance. A strat like 4gate all-in can be viable on any and every map. Or even if you do start playing on large maps, what about the lack zerg t1 antiair? Fast phoenix builds would become extremely popular on large maps as photon cannons are so effective against zerglings, roaches would take forever to cross the map and in sufficient numbers - when even then, warp-in is a cheap and fast upgrade that allows a protoss to alter and reinforce their build if need be by that timing. you mean blizzard might be forced to actually make some changes? that's probably the real reason. they might have to change a mechanic or two to make things work out. zerg still has no 1 food attacking unit, which I think is counter to the design philosophy of starcraft. y | ||
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dbizzle
United States395 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:46 bennyaus wrote: I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now. As Tasteless said last night, nerds will never be happy, "Why isn't this perfect??!?!". I think this is a flawed way of thinking about it, sc1 took years because it was an original game and people didn't know what to expect from it. SC2 is out and it has similar game play and people already know what they want from it from the 10 years of experience we had from sc1. Different games yes, but we all know what we want. | ||
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