All figures quoted are in USD based on a $10 buy in 64 or 65 player tournament.
This is happening right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182313 Please stop posting "Blizz won't allow this" or "entry fees are illegal for onlines by blizz" BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE. it is perfectly legal, infact THERE IS AN OPTION FOR IT ON THEIR TOURNAMENT TRACKER PAGE. I am just waiting on my licence to go through!
I am planning (meaning if we can't or it is not viable it is not going to happen) to run a $5, $10, or $15 buy-in tournament with +$50 to the prize pot out of my pocket, for www.njfail.com (just for reference) the question is what is the way to get the most players in attendance. I was thinking and I believe I have three ways of doing this:
Swiss that cuts to a single or double elim tourney - Unlimited players Swiss rounds would be on a Saturday playoffs on the following Sunday Prize distributions:+ Show Spoiler +
Based on 65 players at a $10 buy in 17-32nd - $10+ 9-16th - $20+ 5-8th - $30+ 3&4th - $40+ 2nd - $60+ 1st - $120+
Here we can have as many players as we want, what happens is all players play a Bo1 or Bo3 match to start (completely randomized) because of the nature of this there will either be one or no byes. After this initial round there are two kinds of players those with a win and those with a loss 1-0 and 0-1 respectively. These players play a Bo1 or Bo3 match against a player with their same score 1-0 or 0-1, a bye counts as a win. There are now three kinds of players 2-0, 1-1, 0-2. Players play random matches against players with the same score inside the tourney, cross pairings only to avoid byes. This continues for X number of rounds and then the top 8, 16, or 32 are determined using their finishing place and a single or double elim is played.
The number of players to swiss rounds would look like:
<16 players - 3 rounds of swiss cut to top 4 16 -24 players - 4 rounds of swiss cut to top 8 25-31 players - 5 rounds of swiss cut to top 8 32-48 players - 4 rounds of swiss cut to to 16 49-64 players - 5 rounds of swiss cut to top 16 65-96 players - 4 rounds of swiss cut to top 32 97-128 players - 5 rounds of swiss cut to top 32 129-193 players - 4 rounds of swiss cut to top 64 193-256 players - 5 rounds of swiss cut to top 64 256+ players - 6 rounds of swiss cut to top 64
Double or Single elim tourney - capped at 32, 64, or 128 players Prize Distribution+ Show Spoiler +
Based on a 64 player $10 buy in 17-32th - $10 9-16th - $15 5-8th - $30 3&4th - $45 2nd - $65 1st - $135
Round robin into single or double elim - unlimited players How it would work+ Show Spoiler +
So we randomly assign groups from there you play everyone in you groups, in Bo1 or Bo3 matches. From there the player with the best score advance to the main bracket. The number of players in each group and how many groups depend on players: 17-48 players - 8 groups with 3-6 players in each group 49-96 players - 16 groups with 3-6 players in each group 97-192 players - 32 groups with 3-6 players in each group 193+ - 64 groups with 3+ players in each group
To All those saying "DERP YOU CANT DO THIS!" or "BLIZZARD GONNA SHUT YOU DOWN!", you realize I got this from blizzard: + Show Spoiler +
Greetings,
Thank you for submitting your tournament license request. We are in the process of reviewing your request and require more information about the participation fee. Please answer the following questions at your earliest convenience to move forward with the licensing process.
What is your tournament name and date? How much fee will be charged for the participation? How many people will be participating? What is the total prize pool (in USD)? Will the participation fee be used for the prize? If not, What will the fee be used for? Any further information on the participation fee?
On December 16 2010 15:33 Bowdy wrote: blizzard says no no
Pretty sure its easy to get permission for blizz to run some kind of non-profit tourney. [edit] and honestly, how does telling him "no way blizz is gonna let you..." help him at all with collecting information he needs to run a tourney.
Anyways, coming from the deeply competitive Magic: The Gathering scene, if you can find the time/energy to run a appropriate number of rounds Swiss tournament, go for it. It is far and away the best tournament type there is; lots more people stay in contention for a lot longer to "win it all," none of this seeding nonsense, and even if you aren't in position to make the cut for the final rounds, if you still feel like playing, the tourney format has no problem to keep pairing you off.
However, time constraints, organization, and the energy required to run a swiss tourney over SC2, especially with how bad battle.net 2.0 is at connecting large amounts of people together at the same time, it would probably be more wise to run some kind of single or double elim bracketed tourney.
[edit] additionally, most SC2/PC gamers are most familiar/comfortable with the single/double elim bracket tourney. So if your goal is to attract as many people as possible, it would probably be best not to diverge from that (heres looking at you MLG and your extended series = P )
yea why do people act like its that hard to get approval... they WANT you to do these kind of things, they SUPPORT you doing these kind of things, as long as you arent making money off it.
On December 16 2010 15:49 PhiliBiRD wrote: yea why do people act like its that hard to get approval... they WANT you to do these kind of things, they SUPPORT you doing these kind of things, as long as you arent making money off it.
Actually I think I have seen 0% of these types of tournaments get approved. If there is a buy Blizzard only generally allows it for big organizations such as MLG. I've seen probably 100 of these threads since beta pop up and each one was closed with "Will reopen when you get an Esports license". I have yet to see one reopened....
Best of luck, I'm not a fan of the format but maybe Blizz will allow you to do this
There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
On December 16 2010 16:01 SuperBigFoot wrote: There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
The prize payouts are garbage for most of the free tournaments, and prize structure is terrible too. Take US craft cup for instance, almost 200 people signed up for it, 1st place is 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time if you're in it for the money. Besides, there has been a lot of interest in doing some sort of buy in tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176783
I think the purpose of the thread was to probe the interest and viability of it.
The problem with unknowns starting a tournament like this is Blizzard puts trust into your tournament hoping you don't just leave with the cash because it would look bad on them as well since they gave you the license.
On December 16 2010 16:01 SuperBigFoot wrote: There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
The prize payouts are garbage for most of the free tournaments, and prize structure is terrible too. Take US craft cup for instance, almost 200 people signed up for it, 1st place is 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time if you're in it for the money. Besides, there has been a lot of interest in doing some sort of buy in tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176783
I think the purpose of the thread was to probe the interest and viability of it.
Do you ever check the front page for tournaments? Have you ever wondered what happened to all the buy in online tournaments? They all disappeared because nobody bought into it....
On December 16 2010 16:01 SuperBigFoot wrote: There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
The prize payouts are garbage for most of the free tournaments, and prize structure is terrible too. Take US craft cup for instance, almost 200 people signed up for it, 1st place is 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time if you're in it for the money. Besides, there has been a lot of interest in doing some sort of buy in tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176783
I think the purpose of the thread was to probe the interest and viability of it.
If you're playing starcraft II for the money you need to find a new hobby.
I think this is a great idea, i'd gladly pay 5 dollars to play in a tournament like this. I think this is how we can move forward with tournaments getting larger with more interest. I know this game isnt poke but nonetheless there has to be someone willing to get this ball rolling so we can move forward just as Steven Bonnell pointed out in his thread. GL to you bro
On December 16 2010 17:42 Markus138 wrote: I hope BLizzard will NEVER allow you (or others doing this) to make the tournament!
wanna "buyin" just to play? go play fuckin poker and stop putting this shit into sc2.
ROFL u mad bro??
If ppl wanna buyin to a tournament whatever its about, that's their choice, its not like TS will force them to participate. So please stop your crying for something that make no sense at all.
its dumb to discourage this because of blizzard, do you honestly think blizzard is going to shut shit down if someone is making less than $10,000/year off running tournaments?
do you know how much it costs to hire a lawyer that will fight this for you?
also, how did poker get big? hint, it wasn't by following the rules of paying the rake (which gets taxed) at the casino... its by small illegal house games and other underground stuff that still happens everyday for much more money than SC2 could ever imagine
teamliquid probably won't allow this type of behaviour, simply because they are trying to put on the most professional image possible and have blizzard's approval on every turn, however, take this onto a different website and the attitude changes very rapidly...
i'd totally play a $5.00/$10/$15/ hell even $100 tournament even if there is some sort of rake, any day..
the more money it costs, the less people you'll get to play, especially for LAN, noobs know to stay away from bigger games. this is exactly like poker, only on a much smaller scale...
On December 16 2010 17:42 Markus138 wrote: I hope BLizzard will NEVER allow you (or others doing this) to make the tournament!
wanna "buyin" just to play? go play fuckin poker and stop putting this shit into sc2.
you mean.. you don't want SC2 to be as big as poker?
you know, i would often love to see SC2 on TV with intense action than watching a bunch of fucking poker table sharks stare each other down and act cook with their full tilt hats.. its fucking boring...
as others have said, if you dont find the appeal to "gambling" then stay away, don't post your opinion to get in the way of what other people want to happen
to all those people quoting me that I should shut up:
don't you realise what thise means? Everyone of us bought the game to enjoy it and some of us also for esports value. Suddenly guys are making tournaments with buy-in. So lots of people pay, a few win.
SC2 is a game, an esports game. not a GAMBLING game.
if one gets the permission others will get it too and soon you have hundreds of tournaments where poor people can't join. Great! That's what we want. Make only the rich guys winning!
On December 16 2010 18:05 rS.Sinatra wrote: its dumb to discourage this because of blizzard, do you honestly think blizzard is going to shut shit down if someone is making less than $10,000/year off running tournaments?
do you know how much it costs to hire a lawyer that will fight this for you?
also, how did poker get big? hint, it wasn't by following the rules of paying the rake (which gets taxed) at the casino... its by small illegal house games and other underground stuff that still happens everyday for much more money than SC2 could ever imagine
teamliquid probably won't allow this type of behaviour, simply because they are trying to put on the most professional image possible and have blizzard's approval on every turn, however, take this onto a different website and the attitude changes very rapidly...
i'd totally play a $5.00/$10/$15/ hell even $100 tournament even if there is some sort of rake, any day..
the more money it costs, the less people you'll get to play, especially for LAN, noobs know to stay away from bigger games. this is exactly like poker, only on a much smaller scale...
Yes I honestly think Blizzard will most definitely shut it down. Are you kidding me? They won't let this snowball out of control and that starts at the very bottom. They won't need a lawyer, they have one on retainer, they'll just send a cease and desist. Costs them nothing and gets the job done.
The question about these tournaments are: Will Blizzard be hold responsible for tournaments with bad outcomes if they allow illegal SCII tournaments.
Let us say that a tournament host starts with 5€ "buy-in" and it has success with 200 guys playing. After that a tournament with 10€, 15€ and 25€. And when the tournament for 25€ with 400 players is about to begin the host disappears and takes the 10000€ with him.
op - i've always liked the idea of swiss tournaments, and they shouldn't really be any more difficult to manage than a knockout/double elim etc, gl
On December 16 2010 19:50 Markus138 wrote:
if one gets the permission others will get it too and soon you have hundreds of tournaments where poor people can't join. Great! That's what we want. Make only the rich guys winning!
this is such a horrendous argument and you clearly have no idea how anything that's played for money like this actually works
also, how did poker get big? hint, it wasn't by following the rules of paying the rake (which gets taxed) at the casino... its by small illegal house games and other underground stuff that still happens everyday for much more money than SC2 could ever imagine
so it wasn't by some guy qualifying to the world series off the internet and making everyone think "wow, i could do that" then?
And people presented the argument that only the top tier players would participate, because starcraft 2 is actually not a luck based game and others would see no chance of winning (the comparison was to Poker; I think Poker isn't luck based either, but thats another discussion). Then this morning I read about the GSL and that they have a lot of BO1s in there. And how this could be a problem since this makes the results more volatile.
So why not have a BO1 buy in tourney? This would make it possible for lesser skilled people to actually win something, and increase the probability of these people participating. I think BO1 would make this much more a "try my luck" thing, and I think it could indeed increase the number of participants. Skilled players would still have a higher chance of winning, but more people would feel that they are able to compete. What do you think?
On December 16 2010 20:04 Koshi wrote: The question about these tournaments are: Will Blizzard be hold responsible for tournaments with bad outcomes if they allow illegal SCII tournaments.
Let us say that a tournament host starts with 5€ "buy-in" and it has success with 200 guys playing. After that a tournament with 10€, 15€ and 25€. And when the tournament for 25€ with 400 players is about to begin the host disappears and takes the 10000€ with him.
The host doesn't have to be the one taking care of the money... it could just as well be a trusted member of the community.
On December 16 2010 20:11 hifriend wrote: Is it a good idea to run buy in tourneys in a game where maphack is so easily accessible and virtually completely safe to use?
There are already online tournaments with prize money. I don't see what special about this particular format.
On December 16 2010 19:50 Markus138 wrote: to all those people quoting me that I should shut up:
don't you realise what thise means? Everyone of us bought the game to enjoy it and some of us also for esports value. Suddenly guys are making tournaments with buy-in. So lots of people pay, a few win.
SC2 is a game, an esports game. not a GAMBLING game.
if one gets the permission others will get it too and soon you have hundreds of tournaments where poor people can't join. Great! That's what we want. Make only the rich guys winning!
Don't agree with this at all, if people want to play a small buy in tournament let them go ahead. Your "argument" literally makes zero sense. Just because there is a buy in does not turn SC2 into a gambling game. I see it as paying 5$ for the tournament experience and a chance at making a small amount of more money.
I think its a great idea, the more tournaments the better and if its hard to get sponsors then there is no problem with the players sponsoring the prize pool.
It makes sense that there should be some sort of rake. The tourney organizer should get paid for his troubles. Not sure why blizz would have a problem with that.
On December 16 2010 16:01 SuperBigFoot wrote: There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
The prize payouts are garbage for most of the free tournaments, and prize structure is terrible too. Take US craft cup for instance, almost 200 people signed up for it, 1st place is 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time if you're in it for the money. Besides, there has been a lot of interest in doing some sort of buy in tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176783
I think the purpose of the thread was to probe the interest and viability of it.
If you're playing starcraft II for the money you need to find a new hobby.
Oh like a lot of the pros do? Sure they like the game and are good at it, but what's wrong with trying to make SC2 tournaments more lucrative and worth the effort. Winner take all tournaments aren't worth the trouble IMO, as there's not much difference between getting knocked out in the first round or the fourth. There's absolutely nothing wrong with entrance fee tournaments. Poker does this, as does Magic the Gathering, Soccer, Karate, etc.
Just registered to give the OP my support. I know me and a lot of my friends would be down for this kind of tournament. We're not amazing, mostly 1-2k diamond, but the fact that you could be in the top half and "win" is a big draw, and it'd let us actually see how good we are since the ladder isn't a very good indicator with bonus pools and hidden ratings and divisions and all that.
I looked at the blizzard tournament policy and I see no reason why this wouldn't be okay with them. It's also not gambling because this is clearly a game of skill (that's what matters legally) and tournament entry fees are completely normal and natural.
On December 16 2010 16:01 SuperBigFoot wrote: There are too many free tournaments that give prize money for you to be successful. Basically what I'm saying is, why would anyone want to join your tournament when there are hundreds of tournaments that they can join for free? If you do an in house tournament where people have to actually show up at a physical location, then that's a different story but doing an online pay to play tournament is a huge failure. Check the front page tournament listings for proof. This isn't texas holdem poker we're talking about. It's starcraft...
The prize payouts are garbage for most of the free tournaments, and prize structure is terrible too. Take US craft cup for instance, almost 200 people signed up for it, 1st place is 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time if you're in it for the money. Besides, there has been a lot of interest in doing some sort of buy in tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176783
I think the purpose of the thread was to probe the interest and viability of it.
If you're playing starcraft II for the money you need to find a new hobby.
Oh like a lot of the pros do? Sure they like the game and are good at it, but what's wrong with trying to make SC2 tournaments more lucrative and worth the effort. Winner take all tournaments aren't worth the trouble IMO, as there's not much difference between getting knocked out in the first round or the fourth. There's absolutely nothing wrong with entrance fee tournaments. Poker does this, as does Magic the Gathering, Soccer, Karate, etc.
as do WoW, CS:S, Halo etc.... also most sports have some form of money you have to pay out.
If you are on a football/rugby/basketball team in the UK you prolly pay a few quid every week to your team for things like pitch fees, training ground fees etc.
Most sport leagues require teams to pay a fee to play in leagues, cups etc.
Calling it a "buy-in" is where i think we are going wrong. A Buy-in is for gambling.... an entrance fee is for sport
Most sport leagues require teams to pay a fee to play in leagues, cups etc.
For most sports the money is for refs and admin costs. They are not actually paying to make money. A medal is fine because its not currency. If your going to start doing this i think you better look a little more into it, it might be wise to have the people of legal age.
Most sport leagues require teams to pay a fee to play in leagues, cups etc.
For most sports the money is for refs and admin costs. They are not actually paying to make money. A medal is fine because its not currency. If your going to start doing this i think you better look a little more into it, it might be wise to have the people of legal age.
Hope this helps, Adun
I'm not making money on this one, I am in fact loosing $50, because I'm putting that into the prize pool, anyway don't worry I'm going about this very carefully and legally. Thanks for the support.
I think it's a nice way to have decent prize pools. As long as the host is not trying to make some profit out of it I don't see the problem. If I was a bit better I would me glad to pay 5$ to have some tournament experience ,I would see it as a way to support e-sport while having fun at the same time.
to this hole bliz will shut you down... im pretty sure that in most countrys on earth a publisher of a game dont have rights on tournements of this game. only because they "perhaps" have them in one little state called south kroea this doesnt mean they have it in every country. and do you really think bliz will sue a little trounement and get much hate form the fans even if they know they dont have a chance to win it?
this licenc thing on there webseite is only to let you think they have controll over it. you dont have to fill it or get the ok from bliz to run a tournement...
On December 16 2010 19:50 Markus138 wrote: to all those people quoting me that I should shut up:
don't you realise what thise means? Everyone of us bought the game to enjoy it and some of us also for esports value. Suddenly guys are making tournaments with buy-in. So lots of people pay, a few win.
SC2 is a game, an esports game. not a GAMBLING game.
if one gets the permission others will get it too and soon you have hundreds of tournaments where poor people can't join. Great! That's what we want. Make only the rich guys winning!
Firstly u can bet on anything as long as it has a clear outcome e.g. elections (not meant for gambling purposes but people still bet a lot on them) sometimes in tens of thousands of dollars
Secondly there will always be tournaments that people will be able to join for free as will there be tournaments that people will pay to be in as some people including pros will be willing to pay the fees and others wont. In anycase sometimes it fun and exciting to take a small bet to make the game a little more exciting as you have something to lose as well as something to win.
On December 17 2010 01:41 skeldark wrote: to this hole bliz will shut you down... im pretty sure that in most countrys on earth a publisher of a game dont have rights on tournements of this game. only because they "perhaps" have them in one little state called south kroea this doesnt mean they have it in every country. and do you really think bliz will sue a little trounement and get much hate form the fans even if they know they dont have a chance to win it?
this licenc thing on there webseite is only to let you think they have controll over it. you dont have to fill it or get the ok from bliz to run a tournement...
the license is not a license to control tournaments it is an cementing of blizzards intellectual property rights, this is mainly for the larger tournments and to protect themselves (blizzard) from any liability arising from people who are less than honourable. So it is more of a legal thing than the man wanting to control u and all that jazz. if you went off and did a tournament without their permission they would probly tell u to stop in order to maintain their intellectual property rights but they probly would not bother with the smaller tournaments with small prize pools.
So why not have a BO1 buy in tourney? This would make it possible for lesser skilled people to actually win something, and increase the probability of these people participating. I think BO1 would make this much more a "try my luck" thing, and I think it could indeed increase the number of participants. Skilled players would still have a higher chance of winning, but more people would feel that they are able to compete. What do you think?
I like that idea. Sure, it might invite more cheese, but having a tournament where the chance of winning was higher for everyone is a good idea.
Personally I'd put some sort of skill cap (i.e. no player ranked in the top 200 of the server etc) - again, for the purpose of giving other players hope. (Unless players just used new accounts.)
not sure if it's already been mentioned. But what about giving the players the option of how much they want to buy in with (eg 1, 5, 10, 20 dollars), and set the prize higher for those who contributed more etc.
any thoughts???
because i rather buy in with 1 dollar for the chance to win a bit of money than buy in with 20 dollars for the chance to win a lot more, but this may not be true for other people etc.
if you went off and did a tournament without their permission they would probly tell u to stop in order to maintain their intellectual property rights but they probly would not bother with the smaller tournaments with small prize pools.
my point is that in most countrys they dont can tell you to stop because they dont have any intellecutal property or rights on your event.
On December 17 2010 03:03 Kalingingsong wrote: not sure if it's already been mentioned. But what about giving the players the option of how much they want to buy in with (eg 1, 5, 10, 20 dollars), and set the prize higher for those who contributed more etc.
any thoughts???
because i rather buy in with 1 dollar for the chance to win a bit of money than buy in with 20 dollars for the chance to win a lot more, but this may not be true for other people etc.
Because if one player buys in a $20 and all the rest buy in at $1 then I will loose so much money if the person who bought in at $20 finishes in first. I was thinking about doing this but it would be too complex and very risky.
Also please guys keep this thread on track, I am asking for advice and interest in this, not whether or not blizzard will allow this, my tourney licence is pending so they will tell me whether or not they will let me,
i dont understand how blizzard is gonna shut your tournament down when you guys are just playing at home. what are they gonna do? block your accounts from bnet? stop paypal or somthing from making your transaction? this tournaments small enough not to get shut down. anyway, good tournament.
i think this is pretty good idea...i think you could even follow the iphone style trend with .99$ and get alot of people to attend. Anyway good luck with this project, i hope it goes well
On December 17 2010 05:01 Nevy wrote: Same prizes for 3rd and 4th places? Expect cheesy 3rd place matches.
That's assuming no bronze matches, If I were to do bronze matches I would definitely redistribute prizes accordingly. Thanks for reminding me I should probably do bronze matches if it is a buy in. I'll have to redraw prizes but w/e, makes it better for the participants.
So why not have a BO1 buy in tourney? This would make it possible for lesser skilled people to actually win something, and increase the probability of these people participating. I think BO1 would make this much more a "try my luck" thing, and I think it could indeed increase the number of participants. Skilled players would still have a higher chance of winning, but more people would feel that they are able to compete. What do you think?
I like that idea. Sure, it might invite more cheese, but having a tournament where the chance of winning was higher for everyone is a good idea.
Personally I'd put some sort of skill cap (i.e. no player ranked in the top 200 of the server etc) - again, for the purpose of giving other players hope. (Unless players just used new accounts.)
If we do swiss or RR the swiss/group rounds will 100% be Bo1 because of this, I totally agree.
MG`Odien: If you can get a license and get this up and running, I'll definitely be down to play.
Khol: Please make a massive thread for when this goes through. I will be down to play everyday.
RoyalCheese: i think this is pretty good idea...i think you could even follow the iphone style trend with .99$ and get alot of people to attend. Anyway good luck with this project, i hope it goes well
Thanks for the support guys i will certainly tell EVERYONE when and if my licence goes through.
also, how did poker get big? hint, it wasn't by following the rules of paying the rake (which gets taxed) at the casino... its by small illegal house games and other underground stuff that still happens everyday for much more money than SC2 could ever imagine
so it wasn't by some guy qualifying to the world series off the internet and making everyone think "wow, i could do that" then?
Mistaking cause and effect can get you screwed later in life.
The only reason that kid started playing in the first place was because there were other smaller tournaments where he could risk his money and test the waters and build up confidence to get to where he did. Not to mention the fact that the WSOP was actually not that hard to get to for him.
You think that would have happened if the "world series of poker" was GSL with a grand prize of $84,000 where the only way you can even participate is to fly to a country where you can't speak the language? Or maybe you think that poker was big enough (since it was already online) that the GSL of poker was finally practical?
WSOP use to be 100 people (or less). Only a few players dreamed that it would get beyond thousands of people.
GSL already has well over hundreds of participants. Its only a matter of time (if the community lets this happen) for SC2 to be something "worth it".
Right now I wouldn't throw my University degree away to play something I know I'm pretty decent at and good at if I spent the same amount of time I do to my studies. However, If I knew I could regularly make a living out of this game, I'd play the shit out of it (and so would alot of other people too).
Sorry OP, off topic, but my point is, this should happen and I appreciate what OP is doing for the community.
if you went off and did a tournament without their permission they would probly tell u to stop in order to maintain their intellectual property rights but they probly would not bother with the smaller tournaments with small prize pools.
my point is that in most countrys they dont can tell you to stop because they dont have any intellecutal property or rights on your event.
but they have intellectual property rights on the actual game and if u hold a tournament without their permission u technically have infringed on their intellectual property rights (most likely under the fair use clause).
Furthermore due to the WTO intellectual property rights are enforced equally throughout the world (excepting some of the poorer regions of the world though in this case it is a null issue as it is unlikely there would be a large tournment in africa due to a number of economic and social reasons)
Good news everyone we got something back from Blizzard! Wow i didn't think they would get back so fast:
Greetings,
Thank you for submitting your tournament license request. We are in the process of reviewing your request and require more information about the participation fee. Please answer the following questions at your earliest convenience to move forward with the licensing process.
What is your tournament name and date? How much fee will be charged for the participation? How many people will be participating? What is the total prize pool (in USD)? Will the participation fee be used for the prize? If not, What will the fee be used for? Any further information on the participation fee?
Good news everyone we got something back from Blizzard! Wow i didn't think they would get back so fast:
Greetings,
Thank you for submitting your tournament license request. We are in the process of reviewing your request and require more information about the participation fee. Please answer the following questions at your earliest convenience to move forward with the licensing process.
What is your tournament name and date? How much fee will be charged for the participation? How many people will be participating? What is the total prize pool (in USD)? Will the participation fee be used for the prize? If not, What will the fee be used for? Any further information on the participation fee?
Regards, Blizzard eSports Team
This is horrid that you need to contact blizzard every time you want to have a tourney. Lets do up some lan/private servers. Sigh, why did blizzard take lan away from the boys.
On December 16 2010 16:24 JeanLuc wrote: If you have enough participants divide the tournament up into SECTIONS, and have each section receive its own prizes
i.e. Bronze, Silver, Gold Section (top prize for 1st) Platinum Section (top two places pays) Diamond under 2400 section (top two places pays) Diamond above 2400 section (top two places pays)
make it a 15 dollar buy in. people should be willing to pay a wee bit more since they have a realistic shot of winning
People could just smurf for money then >.>
I'd participate in a buyin tournament like the first example you set up. Only one win to break even? Sounds fair to me
On December 16 2010 16:24 JeanLuc wrote: If you have enough participants divide the tournament up into SECTIONS, and have each section receive its own prizes
i.e. Bronze, Silver, Gold Section (top prize for 1st) Platinum Section (top two places pays) Diamond under 2400 section (top two places pays) Diamond above 2400 section (top two places pays)
make it a 15 dollar buy in. people should be willing to pay a wee bit more since they have a realistic shot of winning
People could just smurf for money then >.>
I'd participate in a buyin tournament like the first example you set up. Only one win to break even? Sounds fair to me
Well I will try to make it so the top half at least break even, but the top half has to be a power of two, otherwise it is the next highest power of two (think 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 etc) So if 100 people show up the top half is 50 so the next highest power of 2 would be 32, so 32 people would receive prizes and at least break even. And in swiss you play a bunch (3 to 5) of matches to make it clear who is the top 32 or 64. But don't worry you will have a close to 50% chance of winning prizes (assuming all MU's are 50/50).
why? I doube that blizzard will look for all thousend of this kind of tournaments because they have other issues to solve like how they can feed their greed with more money, but surely not putting any effort for nothing like this because they strictky follow the rule "no money no effort".
They rather keep people busy with sc2 while they make real money with wow. Wow, is this really new`??? Since Activision got involved in Blizzard, there is no way that blizzard will care about such event untill there is solid foundation, i mean even clan war where pros plays is not so porpular as it is supposed to be. And if you have seen GSL and recognize that the participation of foreigner makes it worth to watch while korean pros cheeses and do everything to win money like blizzard. Well actually no wonder since it is sponsored by blizzard. This whole situation is joke, a really bad one. It seems that everyone wants to see money, nothing else.
p.s.: of course there are many passionate players who really love this game. But as all of you know, few people can ruin the castle of efffort with single stupid action. Look at SPL, look at US gourvernment.
On December 17 2010 12:13 GrazerRinge wrote: sry but NO WAY that this is gonna work...
why? I doube that blizzard will look for all thousend of this kind of tournaments because they have other issues to solve like how they can feed their greed with more money, but surely not putting any effort for nothing like this because they strictky follow the rule "no money no effort".
They rather keep people busy with sc2 while they make real money with wow. Wow, is this really new`??? Since Activision got involved in Blizzard, there is no way that blizzard will care about such event untill there is solid foundation, i mean even clan war where pros plays is not so porpular as it is supposed to be. And if you have seen GSL and recognize that the participation of foreigner makes it worth to watch while korean pros cheeses and do everything to win money like blizzard. Well actually no wonder since it is sponsored by blizzard. This whole situation is joke, a really bad one. It seems that everyone wants to see money, nothing else.
p.s.: of course there are many passionate players who really love this game. But as all of you know, few people can ruin the castle of efffort with single stupid action. Look at SPL, look at US gourvernment.
and sry for my bad english.
Derp the foundation has to start somewhere and if that has to be well then so be it I accept your challenge. Anyway my tourney licence pending, you sir don't speak for blizzard, they are perfectly capable for speaking for themselves, if they don't ok my tournament then so be it, if they do the hooray, it will be the start of something great.
On December 17 2010 12:39 Fzero wrote: Part of the online license agreement is that you agree that your tournament doesn't have a buy-in as far as I know.
source please of it
because I don't think so, as the questions I see on the tournament license stuff say a yes or no question about the buy-in.
There is one thing that concerns me. This system is clearly adapted from the poker scene, I suppose. I like that, but there is a fundamental difference between the two games: In poker, luck is a big factor, at least if you only look at it over a short period of time. In SC2, the luck factor is really, really low.
If I play as a 2000 point Zerg vs a 3000 point Zerg, I lose every game. If I play as a casual donk in the sunday million on stars, there is still a chance to win it.
I would not play in a tourney like this, just because my chances of winnig, if some GOOD SC2 players will play, are ZERO, to get any money back.
SC2, in my opinion, is more comparable to chess, skillwise. There (at least in Switzerland), people do the following:
- Make 3 tourney instead of one (for example: -1600 Elo, 1600-2000 Elo, 2000+ Elo...) - Make prices for differend skill classes (Best -1600 Elo player, best -1800 Elo player, best -2000 Elo player...)
Therefore there would be an incentive to play, even for me as 2k diamond. Otherwise, the money ist just thrown out of the window (at least for me). I like that you use the swiss system, it's great and not used nearly often enough in games and sports outside of chess.
On December 17 2010 18:48 guyincognito314 wrote: I definitely support this idea and wish to see this happen.
Thanks for all the support guys, I really appreciate it. :D
On December 17 2010 18:10 pampelmus wrote: I really like your idea.
There is one thing that concerns me. This system is clearly adapted from the poker scene, I suppose. I like that, but there is a fundamental difference between the two games: In poker, luck is a big factor, at least if you only look at it over a short period of time. In SC2, the luck factor is really, really low.
If I play as a 2000 point Zerg vs a 3000 point Zerg, I lose every game. If I play as a casual donk in the sunday million on stars, there is still a chance to win it.
I would not play in a tourney like this, just because my chances of winnig, if some GOOD SC2 players will play, are ZERO, to get any money back.
SC2, in my opinion, is more comparable to chess, skillwise. There (at least in Switzerland), people do the following:
- Make 3 tourney instead of one (for example: -1600 Elo, 1600-2000 Elo, 2000+ Elo...) - Make prices for differend skill classes (Best -1600 Elo player, best -1800 Elo player, best -2000 Elo player...)
Therefore there would be an incentive to play, even for me as 2k diamond. Otherwise, the money ist just thrown out of the window (at least for me). I like that you use the swiss system, it's great and not used nearly often enough in games and sports outside of chess.
But that's why the top half get prizes, (Does anyone read the OP?) So even if you only get top %50 you break even, from there win again and you made some money, etc, etc, etc. Also If i were to divide it up into leagues, I would have to check everyones profile, it would be closed to lower players who wished to support this work or just try their hand in a tourney, on top of which with a tiered prize system (price wise) if I get to many lower tiered players joining and only one or two higher priced buy ins, if the higher priced buy in wins (which he is more likely too) I could very easily go broke from the prize pool being too small to allow his first place finish. And in chess they do have open tournaments all the time. I was actually thinking of later on doing more tournaments that are more money and only open to the top 200 or a semis or greater finish in one of my opens, thus drawing them away from the opens allowing more players to have a reasonable chance at winning. However to establish myself I need to host a few opens first.
Also I really love the swiss tournament structure, and I can't figure out why it isn't used more often.
On December 16 2010 17:42 Markus138 wrote: I hope BLizzard will NEVER allow you (or others doing this) to make the tournament!
wanna "buyin" just to play? go play fuckin poker and stop putting this shit into sc2.
seriously?
it's a 5-10-15$ buy in, first off, it's not much. second off, it'll ALL go the the prize pool, nothing is for him, everything goes to the prize pool. so why would it be a bad thing for someone to make tournaments where you have a chance to actually win quite a big chunk of cash for a pretty small buy in? there's nothing wrong with it and it does great things for the community as it is cheaper for the tournament maker to afford a good prize pool (who seriously wants a 20$ 1st price? really? come on now)
so please tell us, what's so wrong with making a tournament where there's a decent amount of money in the prize pool instead of a 1st price that barely makes up for the money you spent on your current internet connection? there's one single problem with making tournaments today:
IT IS EXPENSIVE. most tournaments are either payed by the maker which means at max a 100$ prize pool or they're sponsored. sponsored tournaments doesn't happen that often and they WILL be filled with top top players. with buy in tournaments you can make more tournaments which means people who aren't at that top top level but are still very good actually has a chance to get some eSporting on!
so do you want to stop eSports or do you want it to grow?
I can see why blizz would be mad if you had an entrance fee to a tournament that is sponsored but if it all goes to the price pool I guess you could say it's sponsored by the tournaments participants so dunno what blizz says though but 5 bucks seems nice. Not that much to pay for the individual and will add up to nice price pool if you get enough participants.
I cant see why Blizzard would care as long as the host isnt profiteering Via the tournament tracker any hosts that run off with the money; have they submitted enough info for blizz to track them down? im fine with paying money for tournaments type thing and i like to think the hosts are honest, but i dont want to risk it
Haha, I'm 100% for this guy doing it. I don't claim a monopoly on any of my ideas. Personally, I don't even want to be the one to start to organize these tournies (though I am working heavily now to gather the resources/people to start a site!) because it requires so much time/effort.
More power to this guy. On a personal level, I feel the payout structure is too gimmicky (I'd rather see 8 places paid in a ro64 and not everyone getting their buy-in back after winning 1 round), but other than that, I'm all for people getting the ball rolling on this idea of having buy-in tournaments.
On December 18 2010 01:37 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote: Haha, I'm 100% for this guy doing it. I don't claim a monopoly on any of my ideas. Personally, I don't even want to be the one to start to organize these tournies (though I am working heavily now to gather the resources/people to start a site!) because it requires so much time/effort.
More power to this guy. On a personal level, I feel the payout structure is too gimmicky (I'd rather see 8 places paid in a ro64 and not everyone getting their buy-in back after winning 1 round), but other than that, I'm all for people getting the ball rolling on this idea of having buy-in tournaments.
Sorry I didn't give you credit bro (editing OP now) and thanks for being so chill about it. That thread actually inspired me to do this, and for everyone else, I started this thread not to discuss the viability of an entry fee based tournament but to gauge it, to see if I could actually get a decent player base to run something like this. There was so much volatility in your thread, and people arguing which way things should be done I decided to step up and say I am going to do this here you guys are the options, pick one. It was to help plan an actual buy-in not discuss the macro economic impacts of such.
I do feel the payouts are a lil cheesy I might redesign it so that if you get like 9-32 you get your entry fee back and then top 8 get bigger prizes. I have worked very hard on the prize distribution systems and I still feel the high finishing are laking but I still wanted lower level players to feel as if they had a chance to win some money. Another solution to this may be to reduce prizes to the top quarter meaning you will have to win an Elimination match to get monies, instead of just being placed there to get your entry fee back.
I think you should start at $10. That's not a steep price at all, and if everyone is being a Jew you can go down from there. Hopefully, if this takes off, the buy-ins will continue to increase as with the competition.
I really believe in this and hope that it's just the beginning. I read the guy's post you used for inspiration and agree with a lot of his points. I will not be participating in this tournament as since it's the first of this type and will end up with a larger prize pool than most other tournaments some of the pro's play in it's going to attract a lot of really skilled attention . I WOULD however be interested to know if you're going to try and get some casters because I would love to watch this thing (even if the first time will be rather bumpy).
Also, if you could use any help organizing I'd be - even excited - to give assistance. Please feel free to PM me here, or message me on Bnet (BREAKR.310).
But that's why the top half get prizes, (Does anyone read the OP?) So even if you only get top %50 you break even, from there win again and you made some money, etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, but if I think that I am worse than 50% of the player, I won't sign up. I read the OP. The problem is, there is no luck factor. If I play SnG's, I will win occasionally, even if I am worse than 50% of the players.
Also If i were to divide it up into leagues, I would have to check everyones profile, it would be closed to lower players who wished to support this work or just try their hand in a tourney, on top of which with a tiered prize system (price wise) if I get to many lower tiered players joining and only one or two higher priced buy ins, if the higher priced buy in wins (which he is more likely too) I could very easily go broke from the prize pool being too small to allow his first place finish. And in chess they do have open tournaments all the time. I was actually thinking of later on doing more tournaments that are more money and only open to the top 200 or a semis or greater finish in one of my opens, thus drawing them away from the opens allowing more players to have a reasonable chance at winning. However to establish myself I need to host a few opens first.
Could be done automatically? Site like sc2ranks.com get the data from bnet, this is doable. But for sure, if it's not coded, it's a lot of work for you, so it's maybe something for the future...
Also I really love the swiss tournament structure, and I can't figure out why it isn't used more often.
One problem with Swiss in Magic: the Gathering tournaments is that the system is very open to collusion if intentional draws are allowed. For example, if you're guaranteed to be in the Ro8 (Top 8 in Magic tournaments) or whatever, regardless of if you get a win or a loss, and I can be in the Ro8 with a win or a tie, I can promise you the same favor in the future if we intentionally draw now. Or you could just choose to draw because we're teammates, or friends, etc.
I would hope any tournaments for SC2 don't allow for intentional drawing (through a draw is technically possible*), so that shouldn't a big issue.
Of course, the format is still open to less obvious collusion, such as throwing the game, etc. but you can't do away with that no matter what. A single elimination (or double elimination, even) tournament makes it much harder to collude in that way (especially a single elimination), since a loss is very detrimental to your ability to continue on in the tournament.
*I believe there was a replay Day[9] did on one of his Daily's that came down to the whole map being mined out, a Terran having floating buildings in areas not reachable on land, and the Zerg only having Queens and maybe Ultralisks.
Good news everyone, I have gotten liscencing from Blizzard! Meaning I am hosting a $5 Buy-in! So if you support the idea of SC2 buy-ins show your support, and show how viable it is by signing up here:
EPT
. I WOULD however be interested to know if you're going to try and get some casters because I would love to watch this thing (even if the first time will be rather bumpy).
