I am mid platinum Terran and I have noticed improvement in my game play when I focus on spamming marines. After tons of games I have a feeling like whole Terran army is marines while other units depends on the occasion provide only support. In long term this is boring. Z and T can do successful compositions by cost and usage without lings/zealots. Sadly I think it won't change much until some mech fix (by fix I mean readjustment of cost, build time or both) or new units which we won't see before HotS. Even if Blizz will introduce mines on Reaper/Hellion which I doubt, game would still focus around marines as due to game mechanics. They are the easiest replaceable, and the most economical dps provider.
On December 10 2010 02:01 FlamingTurd wrote: Seems that Zerg has to play absolutely perfectly to win while Terran can make so many mistakes and still have a chance. Something has got to give. Blizzard is back to their nerfing Zerg days after all this Zerg defeat once again.
Can't agree at all. Try to make mistake vs banelings and your whole army is gone.
I think one of the big problems of terran mech is as many allready said the lack of an allrounder like the Goliath. Not sure if the viking could somehow replace them but guess not. Also the Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss and the fact that mass rine can really only be stopped by banes when facing a zerg doesnt really make anyone want to use anything but rines and other units for support. For me as Zerg its upsetting that against many terrans I only have to build banes cause they only come with rines and occasionally with tanks against the banes. Really think increasing the marine size and/or lowering their range would really help with this. Of course other terran units would probably require boosts. I allways found that hellions are way to good vs light and way to bad against other units. Also I am not sure if the Vikings couldnt be made to be more equal to good old goliaths in terms of being usefull on the ground. Sorry that I am not basing this on any evidence it is just how I feel and anyone can disagree if they please.
Edit: Wouldnt go as far as to say that terrans can just make mistakes without it costing them, however their ability to wall in and have 1 or 2 tanks secure their base makes it much harder for a zerg to benefit from a terrans mistake in my opinion. Had many games where I had to wait for ultras before I could even consider really taking the terran out.
On December 10 2010 02:01 FlamingTurd wrote: Honestly at this point I'm so sick of watching pro Zerg players get defeated SOOO badly by marine rushes or MMM balls. Most of the time it's like Zerg throws their entire armies at it and the Terran still has like half their army left over. This is repeatedly happening over and over. This is typically after the Zerg scouts the Terran coming anyway. Blizzard has had so much time to fix this issue and Terran has been ahead in every single freakin stat since the game has been released... Seems that Zerg has to play absolutely perfectly to win while Terran can make so many mistakes and still have a chance. Something has got to give. Blizzard is back to their nerfing Zerg days after all this Zerg defeat once again.
This is so wrong on so many levels. You are either a great troll or a a close minded cough individual cough. Try playing tvz and then talk.. It's completely the other way around. All terans ever had vs zerg were all ins and it's the terran's single mistake that loses him the game.
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: I think one of the big problems of terran mech is as many allready said the lack of an allrounder like the Goliath. Not sure if the viking could somehow replace them but guess not. Also the Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss and the fact that mass rine can really only be stopped by banes when facing a zerg doesnt really make anyone want to use anything but rines and other units for support. For me as Zerg its upsetting that against many terrans I only have to build banes cause they only come with rines and occasionally with tanks against the banes. Really think increasing the marine size and/or lowering their range would really help with this. Of course other terran units would probably require boosts. I allways found that hellions are way to good vs light and way to bad against other units. Also I am not sure if the Vikings couldnt be made to be more equal to good old goliaths in terms of being usefull on the ground. Sorry that I am not basing this on any evidence it is just how I feel and anyone can disagree if they please.
Kind of agree, marines are too vital to any compostion. They're really good early and very lackluster late game. Hellions and vikings are both a bit to iffy at their tasks, well it's mostly the viking/thor not being good enough at the goliaths task. Vikings don't hit ground and thors alone aren't enough for anti air unless your army is pure thor.
they nerfed one of the capital ships for terran to 8 from 10 damage vs ground at some point for no reason... now they only do 11 from 13 at max vs ground max upped dps went to 47 from 56 seems like there's no reason to do so... they don't even kill lings in 4 shots anymore if the zerg carapace was 1 higher than air upgrades on Terran
I think it could be good option to give vikings air attack in ground mode. (but i d prefer goliaph but i think we ll not see any new units until addon HoTS)
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: I think one of the big problems of terran mech is as many allready said the lack of an allrounder like the Goliath. Not sure if the viking could somehow replace them but guess not. Also the Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss and the fact that mass rine can really only be stopped by banes when facing a zerg doesnt really make anyone want to use anything but rines and other units for support.
Thors are a far better all-rounder than goliaths ever were. It's not any other particular unit that coutners mech that's the problem. It's the lack of the OP status on siege tanks. You have this unit, which has to go into siege mode and be positioned perfectly to do anything, and then still gets outdps'd by marines and marauders. So what you're getting for the price of 150/100 is an immobile cannon that's barely on-par with any mobile army in the game. Siege tanks NEED TO BE OP in order to be useful. But then all of the vocal retards will be up in arms about that, because TERRAN OP, so we can't have mech.
On December 10 2010 02:52 nalgene wrote: they nerfed one of the capital ships for terran to 8 from 10 damage vs ground at some point for no reason... now they only do 11 from 13 at max vs ground max upped dps went to 47 from 56 seems like there's no reason to do so... they don't even kill lings in 4 shots anymore if the zerg carapace was 1 higher than air upgrades on Terran
if only vikings could harass a zerg like this, they'd be pretty cost effective and not need to always stay with the majority of the main force
Lol are you seriously thinking terran air was better in bw? I could count the number of games won by wraiths alone with my left hand. Think about how many games that are won by banshees..
On December 07 2010 17:11 imBLIND wrote: The only method that works in TvP : Marine/SCV rushes and Timing pushes. I can count the number of times a Terran won a head-to-head macro battle with a toss with two hands.
You must have some interesting rules on which games "count" towards this. If you mean you haven't seen many tournament matches going 55 minutes+ with each player on 5 bases and the terran coming out on top - it's because the number of games which involve neither player rushing for something on the tournament scene is fairly low right now - not just in TvP but for all races. Of the games I've seen recently from Dreamhack, GSL and MLG, I don't really see a backing for the statement that late game terran "can't work" against late game Protoss. Perhaps you have some evidence you'd like to add to this conjecture?
If you nerf the marines there will be even less reason for Terran to go in the late game against Zerg as their lategame army is mainly composed of them.
There are no issues with marines. There are issues with Zerg macro and maps. Make bigger maps, nerf Zerg macro and we will get rid of these ridiculous 1-2 base all-in strats.
On December 10 2010 03:27 TeWy wrote: If you nerf the marines there will be even less reason for Terran to go in the late game against Zerg as their lategame army is mainly composed of them.
There are no issues with marines. There are issues with Zerg macro and maps. Make bigger maps, nerf Zerg macro and we will get rid of these ridiculous 1-2 base all-in strats.
This assumption is false.
Nerf zerg macro. > Is Z still susceptible to early all-ins? > yes? (probably a bit more because zerg just have been nerfed) Do I have a good chance of winning if I all in? > Yes? Allin.
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: I think one of the big problems of terran mech is as many allready said the lack of an allrounder like the Goliath. Not sure if the viking could somehow replace them but guess not. Also the Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss and the fact that mass rine can really only be stopped by banes when facing a zerg doesnt really make anyone want to use anything but rines and other units for support.
Thors are a far better all-rounder than goliaths ever were. It's not any other particular unit that coutners mech that's the problem. It's the lack of the OP status on siege tanks. You have this unit, which has to go into siege mode and be positioned perfectly to do anything, and then still gets outdps'd by marines and marauders. So what you're getting for the price of 150/100 is an immobile cannon that's barely on-par with any mobile army in the game. Siege tanks NEED TO BE OP in order to be useful. But then all of the vocal retards will be up in arms about that, because TERRAN OP, so we can't have mech.
well against protoss the goliath does his anti air job way better but yes having tank heavy armies getting rolled in straight up ground battles is kind of saddening.
On December 10 2010 03:07 0neder wrote: Nerf Marine HP (get rid of shields) and buff tank seige damage. Done. More exciting, etc.
Something along these lines sounds reasonable, but it's a difficult issue. Weaker marines means you need thors in tvz for the mutas, which in term would make mech double as attractive, since tanks are also buffed in that scenario.
Don't know if that's a good thing, though. Constant all-ins isn't good, but if every game has 20 minutes of macro before anything happens at all, the watchability will be pretty bad, too.
I think the marine lategame is fine as it is. They're fairly strong and necessary to counter some units (mutas, immortals, etc) as well as give mobility, but they melt vs a critical mass of tanks/collosus/broodlords.
In sc2, terran's army composition in every mu is like tvz in bw: main units are infantry, then there is some tanks and special air units for support. But the T2/T3 are rarely the main unit, unlike protoss and zerg. Maybe that's just the way it is. In bw, marines are core units in tvp and tvt were a novelty. In SC2 it's the other way around.
p.s. Blizzard should swallow their pride and undo the BC nerf. BCs are awesome and I haven't seen them in ages. At the same time, carriers should be stronger vs T - they are as rare (and cool) as BCs.
I've been playing terran for only a few weeks and I have been experimenting with many builds. I have been playing around with mech/bio. Without our old friend the goliath it can be difficult to deal with air when going mech. You need the anti air and dps of the marine in the mix most of the time. I have been experimenting with including 1 or 2 thors and a viking or 2 to stay with my marine ball to help with anti air range. It keeps me from having to over stim and makes it harder for an enemy to snipe units with air. I've also been trying raven/seeker missles in this role but it is hard to get the gas for them when meching. Another issue is needing armory and engineering upgrades for this composition. I don't feel the marines are as bad as they are made out to be in late game. With stim,combat shield, 3/3 they are still cost effective to include in most cases IMO. I don't really view them as the core to the army, more as support to my mech.
One thing I've noticed is how the hi sec upgrade for turrets and +2 armor for buildings is being completely ignored by most. If you get these upgrades, turrets become insane (especially when more than one are places close together) Bunkers and pf's also get the +2 armor and pf's also get the hi sec range upgrade. The upgrade to allow 6 marines into bunkers goes largely unused as well. Perhaps bio mech could be used to slow push in combination with these upgrades and turret/bunker. After all they did make the bunkers refundable. Meanwhile, using blue flame hellions as harassment and to dump minerals.1
Another thing I want to point out is how tanks when not in siege mode have nice range and dps and move at the same speed as unstimmed marines. There are plenty of situations where players are using seige to turtle when they should be on the move. Or their army gets caught out of siege and they attempt to do it while taking damage. Allowing severe damage to occur because of how long it takes the tanks to siege and get 2 shots off compared to how much damage would be put out if they just left the tanks unsieged.
I remember hearing that originally, vikings could be produced at the factory in addition to the starport. Blizzard felt that this made it too easy to mass them with factories and starports. Maybe returning them to the factory and requiring tech lab on it to produce them would work.
Realistically, we have to make the best of what we have. I think the secret for late game terran is not what you have at this stage of the game but how you got there. If you apply the right pressure at the right times you can certainly force your opponents into certain compositions and put them on the defensive allowing you time to get a composition that isn't marine based. That maybe the hardest part, getting the time to switch your composition away from marines without either dying or allowing your opponent to take expansions.
I must say it is so refreshing to see jinro's macro play and I am learning a lot from watching him. I am not full of answers, I just thought I'd share my thoughts and observations on this topic as it is something I've been working with a bit.
he Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss
you can use ghosts with other units to circumvent that problem, and ghosts are better antiair than thors, while still being pretty good against everything else. [quote]I allways found that hellions are way to good vs light and way to bad against other units./quote]- that depends quite a bit on how you actually use them. Hellions that are moved into melee range before shooting do 4-8 times more damage per shot compared to a-moved hellions, and manage to kill any clumped up units, even stalkers or roaches pretty cost efficiently - even better when paired with other splash units such as tanks.
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: I think one of the big problems of terran mech is as many allready said the lack of an allrounder like the Goliath. Not sure if the viking could somehow replace them but guess not. Also the Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss and the fact that mass rine can really only be stopped by banes when facing a zerg doesnt really make anyone want to use anything but rines and other units for support.
Ty for actually adding constructive things to my argument than just complaining like someone else did. And yes your anti air with this is will need vikings thors can't do it alone if they go for heavy numbers of air units. If its just a light number of phoneixes thors a couple of 1-2 thors work fine. 2 thors can 2shot a phoneix and you just have to focus on the ones using graviton beam. Ignoring upgrades of course armor/shield upgrade subtract 4 damage from the thor. So against vanilla weapons. 1 on armor makes the phoneix be 5shoted. Further armor upgrades without upgrading shields as well will not increase the phonenix's survival rate. but will counter act terran weapon upgrades as a thor vs phonenixs gains 8 damage per upgrade. (Your forge may have better things to upgrade. I mean your core on average isn't doing anything after warpgate is finished anyway.)
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: For me as Zerg its upsetting that against many terrans I only have to build banes cause they only come with rines and occasionally with tanks against the banes. Really think increasing the marine size and/or lowering their range would really help with this.
What about making stim do more damage to your marines (and/or marauders) as time moves on. I'm not just talking about damage you take. There are a variety of advantages you gain from stimming at the cost of 10 health (which medivacs can counteract and the shield up counteracts one stim). After you stim once say your movement speed increases by 2. Lets say after this change the second time you stim your movement speed increases by 1.7-1.9. This would hit them in the early game where you don't have as many making you be more conservative as to when you stimmed and when you didn't. But late game as your number of marines climb up really high it wouldn't hit very hard. Plus as the op said marine counters late game are so numerous that they don't live very long anyway. So chances are the average marine built in late game would get 2-3 stims off.
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: Also I am not sure if the Vikings couldnt be made to be more equal to good old goliaths in terms of being usefull on the ground. Sorry that I am not basing this on any evidence it is just how I feel and anyone can disagree if they please.
I will have to agree that I don't see vikings every fufuilling the same roll the goliath did even if their stats in each mode were changed to be comparable to that of the goliath. I believe this because the goliath could immediately switch targets from air to ground if it desired the viking however cannot.
On December 10 2010 02:48 Igaryu85 wrote: Edit: Wouldnt go as far as to say that terrans can just make mistakes without it costing them, however their ability to wall in and have 1 or 2 tanks secure their base makes it much harder for a zerg to benefit from a terrans mistake in my opinion. Had many games where I had to wait for ultras before I could even consider really taking the terran out.
Hopefully the new scv targetabilty that I heard was going to be in this next patch will help with this. Terran's would still be able to mass repair PFs but this would cost them alot of scvs. Therefore even if you don't kill the PF the terran's income is hurt. Yes they can use to help alleviate some of that damage but terrans on average have 2 OC's so even if they throw 8 mules down. But keep in mind that another attack on the expo will cause them to lose all of their mules or their PF (which are but a temporary way to gain income). After those 8 mules mules are gone if the terran have not rebuilt a majority of their scvs they will be behind.
he Immortal seems too powerfull against mech for terrans to ever be able to use mech vs Toss
you can use ghosts with other units to circumvent that problem, and ghosts are better antiair than thors, while still being pretty good against everything else. I allways found that hellions are way to good vs light and way to bad against other units./quote]- that depends quite a bit on how you actually use them. Hellions that are moved into melee range before shooting do 4-8 times more damage per shot compared to a-moved hellions, and manage to kill any clumped up units, even stalkers or roaches pretty cost efficiently - even better when paired with other splash units such as tanks.
This depends widely on what your opponent is doing with his air. A thor and viking have range 10 and 9 respectively while a ghost has range 6. Using a ghost as dedicate antiair would make them very vulnerable and very expensive. However, if against your thors the toss starts to magic box his phoneixes to avoid splash. Then alot of the phonenix will be hoverying directly over your force allowing your ghosts to pick them off very quickly from the safety behind your tanks.
for the cost of 1 thor, you can make 2 ghosts and have some minerals left over. 1 thor isnt very useful. and has 8 dps against light air. 2 ghosts can emp the phoenixes, making them useless for the duration of the battle, and have a combined dps of 26. you dont need to mass ghosts as much as people seem to think. just make a few and you will be fine against light flyer support.
And if he goes mass air, then keep making marines. Knowing when to keep making marines is probably just as important as knowing when to stop relying only on them. And if all his gas is invested in air, then no reason not to fight it with marines even in the lategame.
EPT
