On December 09 2010 15:10 Radio.active wrote: The only buff on the marines were a +5 health upgrade. In starcraft 1, you could actually just go medic marine against zerg, You could almost get away with it in tvp, but psistorm and reavers shut that down pretty easy.
Even dragoons were cost effective by a long shot asuming you had the range upgrade
Ghostmech is a joke. Meching in general is a huge joke.
If 200/200 mech can't kill the opponent theres no point in using it, ever.
Granted you win the first fight with your 200/200 mech army, you're only kidding yourself. Zerg and protoss both have the capabilities to reproduce their damaged armies way faster than you can reinforce out your 5-6 factories in one round of larva and their 10+ warpgates.
This is given you actually managed to survive long enough to get to 200/200. Which, by then, the opponent has probably taken more than 60% of the map while you turtle away. While you have to do cute hellion harass and drops just to keep up. The worst part is, you HAVE to harass, which if it fails to be cost effective you're only lowering your army count while the opponent is still 30 food ahead of you or even more.
Trust me, I've tried it in the beginning. Ghostmech seemed like a style that would suit me and I dodged marauders with a passion.
On December 09 2010 15:10 Radio.active wrote: The only buff on the marines were a +5 health upgrade. In starcraft 1, you could actually just go medic marine against zerg, You could almost get away with it in tvp, but psistorm and reavers shut that down pretty easy. as a protoss, i've never had a problem with mass marine, its really easy to deal with with mass colossus. in TvT i think that the more tanks the better, and as zerg... spread your creep and speed banelings will be as fast as hellions, not to mention fungal is nice... easier said than done, zerg in general through out stacraft and sc2 has always had problems with just medic marines.
I don't think marines need to be nerfed, 1 unmicroed zergling will beat 1 unmicroed marine in a fight.
first of all thats not true that one ling beats one marine. second of all its flawed logic as sc2 doesnt work that way.
thirdly marines received a significant dps upgrade from sc1 to sc2 as well as natural range given to them instead of a range upgrade. there's also combat shields. i dont get the point of your post it seems on uninformed.
On December 09 2010 15:10 Radio.active wrote: The only buff on the marines were a +5 health upgrade. In starcraft 1, you could actually just go medic marine against zerg, You could almost get away with it in tvp, but psistorm and reavers shut that down pretty easy. as a protoss, i've never had a problem with mass marine, its really easy to deal with with mass colossus. in TvT i think that the more tanks the better, and as zerg... spread your creep and speed banelings will be as fast as hellions, not to mention fungal is nice... easier said than done, zerg in general through out stacraft and sc2 has always had problems with just medic marines.
I don't think marines need to be nerfed, 1 unmicroed zergling will beat 1 unmicroed marine in a fight.
first of all thats not true that one ling beats one marine. second of all its flawed logic as sc2 doesnt work that way.
thirdly marines received a significant dps upgrade from sc1 to sc2 as well as natural range given to them instead of a range upgrade. there's also combat shields. i dont get the point of your post it seems on uninformed.
It's also flawed logic to compare BW marines to SC2 marines, two entirely different games that do not translate units, because gameplay is drastically different..
On December 09 2010 15:29 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: Ghostmech is a joke. Meching in general is a huge joke.
If 200/200 mech can't kill the opponent theres no point in using it, ever.
Granted you win the first fight with your 200/200 mech army, you're only kidding yourself. Zerg and protoss both have the capabilities to reproduce their damaged armies way faster than you can reinforce out your 5-6 factories in one round of larva and their 10+ warpgates.
This is given you actually managed to survive long enough to get to 200/200. Which, by then, the opponent has probably taken more than 60% of the map while you turtle away. While you have to do cute hellion harass and drops just to keep up. The worst part is, you HAVE to harass, which if it fails to be cost effective you're only lowering your army count while the opponent is still 30 food ahead of you or even more.
Trust me, I've tried it in the beginning. Ghostmech seemed like a style that would suit me and I dodged marauders with a passion.
Terran need the marauder. Terran need the marine.
1. Did you even read the ghost mech thread? If so why are why even bringing up the zerg? They have nothing to do with this. It is a tvp build.
2. The protoss can outproduce you off a warpgates and then reinforce faster. This is true for your tanks and thors. However, for your hellions, vikings and banshees this is not the case. Hellions are very fast units (not quite as fast as speed vultures but close enough) and banshee/viking are air unit thus they can get to the battle pretty quick as well. The idea is keeping your tanks/thors alive. As long as your core units are up you can smash the continuous reinforcements from the protoss while your hellion/banshee/vikings continuously stream in due to their speed.
3. Cannot survive a 200 vs 200 battle. I will reprase this to say can not oppose a toss army of equal food. As the strength of the tank only goes up as the as both sides get bigger as there are more things to splash.
4. The protoss takes the whole map Remember what I said
On December 09 2010 14:50 terranghost wrote: true. You do have to rely on alot of harassment to stay even with the toss especially on maps where the third and fourth have significant travel distances. Or when you spawn far positions inching up tanks can take a long time. However, I am simply using it as an example of a build that relies less on marines and more on units that can take the heat later on.
Thus if you are playing really far away from you opponent on a 4p map ghost mech might not be the best thing to go for. On close position 4p maps and 2p maps you should be at max 2 expos behind as your toss buddy adds more and more expos your opportunities for harassment increase. The more probes you have the less of a force you have.
On December 08 2010 07:21 dukethegold wrote: I feel that Terran is too chained to mass bio for TvZ and TvP. Pure Mech is not viable, unlike Brood War due to numerous reasons. The primary reason is of course, the lack of the super cost efficient vulture and its mines. The fact is, Terran is basically stuck on Marine/Marauder as their main damage dealers from the beginning to the end. All the key upgrades for M&M can be obtained very early. From that point on, they do not grow stronger, but only weaker as the other two races go up in tech tree.
I feel that the current TvP is fine. Late game in TvP is manageable for both races, although I do find amulet upgraded HT that can be warped anywhere on the map imba. But TvZ has a huge gaping hole in it. Terran must do early aggression to the point of all in, as fighting against late game Zerg is too scary of an alternative.
Hellion is a poor mimicry of Vulture. Hellion can not perform the bread and butter role of Vulture at all. Tanks are more expensive in SC2 and are actually weaker than their BW counterparts (except when unsieged). Thor is something of a confusion. It is strong enough as a main army damage dealer, yet too slow and too large to be microable. Its range makes it an anti-air specialist. Yet its only usefulness in anti-air is scaring away muta. Thor can't even kill them due to magic box. Thor is absolutely useless against pretty much all other air-units except maybe Banshee.
I want Blizzard to buff Terran Mech somehow. As it stands, Terran's late game system is no better than its early game.
I agree with how you feel about Terran mech and bio. When I play Terran, it just feels like my only option to play against the other two races is bio and I think the problem has to do with the costs of Mech. Mech seems just too expensive to produce and the build time for the units can be extremely long. I think a gas, mineral, and time reduction for the Tank and Thor would help the transition into mech for Terran players into the late game. The problem isn't with the units, it's just not being able to produce enough of them during the late game.
On December 09 2010 15:03 pwadoc wrote: I like this idea as well. Maybe an upgrade that lets MULEs harvest gas as well as minerals available in a late-game structure, like the fusion core.
Good idea. Also I think it is fitting for humans to consume and run out of resources faster.
Agree, agree, and definitely agree (to OP...not overpowered... original poster). When I play as terran, the marine ball is just so strong early-mid game. It does have counters, but those can be deterred with micro.
just reduce the damn 125 gas for the tank, to 100(like in bw) with this you can have 1/4 more tank in the same time....another note in regard to hellion/vulture comparison, is that the vulture have a fast upgrade, (the mines were updated quickly...), the blue flame require too much time...
I don't find 3/3 marines underpowered at all in late games, so I find your whole "op early game, up late game" point invalid. Your suggestion on thor is too drastic. Beta is over. It's time for minor tweaks, not complete overhaul of the ability. I agree on one thing though, Mules and marines scale too quickly early/mid game. Needs some nerfing.
no other race has such a versatile and high dps unit. I am not saying this is unfair and op but makes blizzard nerf the other terran units. This single fact is what is driving all non terran players to feel cheated. When we say "terran can just mass tier 1 and win" we are complaining about a design flaw. Really when 1 unit can keep u safe from almost anything the other can throw at you it is an issue because it takes the strain from scouting/creative play and just doesnt make interesting games. This coupled with other terran mechanics (bunker and MULE) that reinforce the mass marines play even more makes playing terran much easier. It isnt OP but it is killing the fun and depth of TvP / TvZ matchups. I would like to see what the expansions will bring but to have to wait 1 year to see terrans use more than just bio in all matchups is pure fail. I play protoss but it feels like the zerg have it worse because they need to play almost perfectly to counter this strat that is so easy to play.
Speed vultures > hellions in useful at all points during the game, whereas hellions don't really do much aside from hurting Light Units, and can only attack via some AI that doesn't allow the user to control the energy wave / direction of the attack ( moving a ling in one direction causes the hellion to automatically fire at that unit, but hellions don't have a manual firing ability on them to control the energy wave )
spidermines kept the vultures fairly safe at times and didn't always need to engage an enemy unit directly / could hurt units of all armor types very well of up to 125 damage in a large radius
vultures also only cost 75 as opposed to 100
they also move slower than a Speed zergling whereas the Speed vultures would move faster
if they brought the vultures and retained the ratio of 1.881 / 1.615 or 1.164 x (4.7 speed zergling without creep ), it'd be pretty good for terran on very big maps ( it'd put the speed vultures to 5.47 which means it could still be patrol microed vs a Speed zergling )
other than marines with stim, nothing can really move out of the terran base without getting swarmed, but if speed vultures were in the game and retained being faster than speed zerglings ( so they could be microed without taking a hit )
toss has no problems vs mass marines as opposed to zergs if the guy using marines has very good micro could chronoboost armor upgrades out earlier than the marines going 3/3 damage/armor
maps larger than the current maps make going pure mech really hard to move out since they removed spidermines from the game
IdrA just lost to 2 rax allins twice in a row on his stream.... the second game convinced me that the 2 rax allin is indeed broken. IdrA played the same guy that had just 2 rax'ed, scouted the 2 rax, threw down the earliest possible crawler pulled all his workers and still couldnt stop a bunker going up at his nat, which of course is gg. It was quite appalling. Its no wonder bitbybit made it as far as he did.
There's a certain balance between how you're supposed to use units as terran. For things like tanks, you're supposed to play conservatively, protecting them and moving to a safer location if you think you're in trouble. For marines, you can zerg it and throw tons at the front lines because A) they do so much damage per cost and B) they're super cheap and massable.
They aren't meant to absorb damage, if they could, they'd be wildly overpowered with the amount of damage they do. I guess the OP wants marines to behave more like zealots, a tank unit with high damage. But this comes with other drawbacks like ground attack only, melee range, and being completely mediocre until charge finishes.
Basically, every good player has a core army of t1 (M&M, Stalker/Zeal, Ling/roach) With a dash of tech. So no matter what match up u r playing marine and marauders will always be their, and are by no means op. Ever seen roach bane whipe the floor of your mass marines? Coz I have, and yes I play T. This game is so situational that threads like this are pointless. Marauders are great vs collosi, but if ur marauders get stuck on a ramp bye bye, etc. Yes micro beats banes, but if u miss micro banes roll over ANY terran army. So whats the difference? If u go just mass marines in TVP and he doesnt get 2 collosi or 1 HT then he deserves to lose. The same can be said if he goes mass zeal and I dont get marauders
Honestly at this point I'm so sick of watching pro Zerg players get defeated SOOO badly by marine rushes or MMM balls. Most of the time it's like Zerg throws their entire armies at it and the Terran still has like half their army left over. This is repeatedly happening over and over. This is typically after the Zerg scouts the Terran coming anyway. Blizzard has had so much time to fix this issue and Terran has been ahead in every single freakin stat since the game has been released... Seems that Zerg has to play absolutely perfectly to win while Terran can make so many mistakes and still have a chance. Something has got to give. Blizzard is back to their nerfing Zerg days after all this Zerg defeat once again.
EPT
