EPTThe Problem with Marines - Page 15
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Kachna
134 Posts
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MisterPuppy
161 Posts
a macro terran from europe just got into the top 4 of the gsl with the majority of his wins being around 20 minutes. i don't see how this claim can be true and be used to support the rest of this thread. | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
However, every step away from the current marine paradigm will require a step towards something else. I like the idea of classical starcraft 1 mech with goliaths, but we probably have to wait for heart of the swarm for any new units. Simply nerfing the marine is going to be very, very bad for terran in terms of balance. Other hardware needs some lovin for the marine to actually be phased out. There is a reason why we're all massing them, and it's that we don't get enough bang for our buck using the highly specialized hardware. The viking is an air superiority unit that loses to every unit that can fight back. The thor can't stop air to save its life (16 dps? really?). And we can't exactly cover the entire map with missile turrets, or make 40 ghosts or 15 battlecruisers just so our marauders, reapers, hellions, tanks, and banshees don't get slaughtered from the skies. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
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PikaXchU
Singapore379 Posts
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Raid
United States398 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:35 DoubleReed wrote: Actually would a simple raise to the marine build time by 5 seconds work? A little dramatic, but you do have reactors after all It's the exact opposite, reactors take so long to build that they are not worth making early game for timing attacks. Its actually better to not mine gas and build more barracks than get gas and reactor to just pump marines. | ||
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pigtheman
United States333 Posts
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
at the moment, there's nothing really useful throughout the game other than marines... They took away Speed Vultures and added Hellions ( no speed upgrades ) and Speed lings are faster now +no spider mines = extremely hard to map control Unlike wraiths, banshees/vikings can't escape from mutalisks and neither can they hit both ground and air units without transformation... and they can't constantly harass even after mutalisks are out unlike the wraiths ravens are like some ultra nerfed science vessel ( former has 60 less hp ( 140 vs 200 ) ) as irradiate hits instantly the moment it's cast, but the missiles take time and can easily be dodged + it did more damage ( primary target was guaranteed to die if less than 250 hp, but the primary target would have some chance of living vs the raven missile if it was faster or had higher than 100 hp ) irradiate would deal with baneling/zergling clumps fairly easily | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
On December 09 2010 05:53 dave333 wrote: What does terran lack? The goliath/mech effectiveness in general. Terran really can't go mech because of how important the rine is, and that is the critical difference between rines in BW and SC2. In BW, you could mostly forgo rines and do a mech build, especially against Terran and Protoss. Against zerg, you could as well. Now, you can't really go mech in any matchup except TvT, simply because you end up lacking something. agreed. in bw you could sub your rines mid game for goliaths and they dealt with mutas just fine. they were massable because of thier low cost, and although they didnt do splash they had like infinite range. mech was viable in the sc2 beta because thors ripped mutas apart. then zegs got smart started boxing the thors and now mech is dead in the water. this leaves some really uninteresting styles of play, maybe the op is too scared to say it but i truly think the marine needs a nerf. and not just moving stim to T2. i also think a few other units may need a buff to compansate so as not to break the MU. | ||
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TheOnlyOne
Germany155 Posts
Pretty much nothing will beat a Stim marine group cost efficient if you have a really awesome micro. A "possible" fix is to give the Marine a bigger attack animation, so you cant attack/move around, which nerfs a lot of micro in the unit, and actual makes it a lot worser; as you can't kite and shoot anything to death. Even banelings become really bad if the marine player has super micro, 1 baneling for a marine is a bad trade, especially as you lose more banelings to hit/run marines that scatter in different directions (and with medivac micro in addition you will only get 1 baneling for 1 marine which is horrible). But to be true, if someone has such a superior Micro; they really should deserve to win, you could put as much micro in your Zerglings; but thats something that must evolve over a long long time, as its that super difficult to manage so much Micro intensive stuff while playing your near perfect Macro aswell (especially using Multiple Drops and stuff like that). However, maybe its a good idea to "slighty" increase the attack animation; or give marines at least a "delay" betwen Attack/move, so you cant move them around as much as currently possible. | ||
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anycolourfloyd
Australia524 Posts
some guy made a post about how marines beat any other unit in the game for cost, with correct positioning. obviously in practice not everybody has infinite micro and maps have chokes and stuff but the point stands. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:59 nalgene wrote: It'd be kind of hard for terran to do any harass as the map gets bigger given the creep spread mechanic also gives vision to the players, they'd see you coming towards them at the moment, there's nothing really useful throughout the game other than marines... They took away Speed Vultures and added Hellions ( no speed upgrades ) and Speed lings are faster now +no spider mines = extremely hard to map control Unlike wraiths, banshees/vikings can't escape from mutalisks and neither can they hit both ground and air units without transformation... and they can't constantly harass even after mutalisks are out unlike the wraiths ravens are like some ultra nerfed science vessel ( former has 60 less hp ( 140 vs 200 ) ) as irradiate hits instantly the moment it's cast, but the missiles take time and can easily be dodged + it did more damage ( primary target was guaranteed to die if less than 250 hp, but the primary target would have some chance of living vs the raven missile if it was faster or had higher than 100 hp ) irradiate would deal with baneling/zergling clumps fairly easily dude have you ever actually played broodwar or are you just randomly pulling stuff ? vultures were one of the rarest used units in tvz for a reason(guess only the ghost was used less). hellions are way more dangerous in tvz then vultures ever were. wraiths SUCK against both mutas and ground which totally negates your point. irradiate hits instantly but does dmg over time and calling it a counter to zerglings is plain wrong even with the tight unit clumping of sc2. please learn about the things before you try using em as arguments. and on the creep thing, ever thought that maybe on bigger maps having proper creepspread gets harder? and that you can actually kill the tumors and destroy the "work" of 10 minutes in like 30 seconds? | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
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Yuma
United States51 Posts
lets move away from the marine for a little bit and lets focus on the tank they tank now cost more then it did in BW and it is essentialy the same unit albiet the smart target firing all i want is for the tank to cost the same so it can be more massable also the raven as nalgene pointed out is a nerfed science vessel make buff its HSM and change the turret to defensive matrix something and now you have some thing that would not only be funner but changes many matchup dynamics i think all other terran late game units are fine tbh also the hellion is the unit i love to hate its great at its job but that about it | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
mutas has 30 frames / 24 vs all and wraiths could be microed and could continue to accelerate without taking a hit irradiate hits for 8.333 every second... and it takes time for the person to notice the green gas obscuring the view of other nearby units to split them in 6 directions defensive matrix could be casted on a stimmed rine and make it take all the damage if their not microing the units Tanks got ultra nerfed to costing more gas and food 150/125/3 vs the old 150/100/2 | ||
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Xerros
United States39 Posts
On December 09 2010 10:09 nalgene wrote: defensive matrix could be casted on a stimmed rine and make it take all the damage if their not microing the units so it's a mechanic where you need to micro? thats not an original idea in RTS's and certainly not to blizzard, think TvT, bio/mech vs bio/mech, if your going to push your opponents siege lines it will be a slaughter, if you split up your ball and put your bio/tanks in the right places its possible. also think TvP bio vs storm, bio gets molested if you dont micro them out of the storm(s), or collosi range for that matter. the bottom line is this: mechanics thats require micro are not a bad thing, in fact they provide some interesting dynamics in game, but it also insure that there will never be perfect balance spreading the spectrum of players and skill levels there are. however to address your particular statement, imo, matrix would be a FUN idea, not good, not bad, just one that i personally would like, and i'm not even going to attempt to say that it would be perfectly if even moderately balanced should blizzard deign to my lowly opinion and put it in game, but if they did, they would tweak it until a happy medium is found. edit: besides, im decently sure that was the idea of the ability in the first game, to absorb damage, and an exstension of that through the ever-evolving metagame might just as easily entail sending a matrix'd unit into combat first to absorb damage while the rest of the army gets into position, there-by requiring micro to ensure your unit's dps isn't wasted on a matrix. | ||
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anycolourfloyd
Australia524 Posts
look at zerg, it's not like they have lurkers or defiler cloud knocking around.. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On December 09 2010 08:19 MisterPuppy wrote: Result: The majority of terran victories are within 12 minutes with some sort of bumrush, usually involving a bunch of marines + scvs + other units before stuff that can kill marines come out. a macro terran from europe just got into the top 4 of the gsl with the majority of his wins being around 20 minutes. i don't see how this claim can be true and be used to support the rest of this thread. Just like how a Korean Zerg player winning GSL in season 1 defeats the claim of Zerg being underpowered pre Roach buff? | ||
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