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I'm still only at page.... 65 and I know I'm more of a lurker but I just thought I'd say some thoughts on the patch.
Regarding Phoenixes, it's dangerous opening Stargate versus a Zerg simply because of the threat of early Roach pressure, which is getting exceedingly common. For Zerg players, who don't want to open with Roach pressure, then they'd need to cater their scouting to the mid game. Up until now, and I'm not even sure how this changes because Hallu will still take some time to research so scouting in the early-mid stages might remain as is, when it came to deciding my mid game tech, I had to poke at the front, and read into what I saw, I'm not saying 'now it's your turn' but I'm saying that perhaps builds that construct an earlier Evo might be good, or whatever. I'm not saying it's fair or balanced because of it, but I'm saying, perhaps there are still safe ways to play, which still allow Zerg players to get an advantage, perhaps not as large as before, but still allow a good Zerg, who has good scouting and decision making to win.
Next regarding Fungal nerfing... I'd like to think that the issue wasn't the Infestors themselves, but what the Infestors did to Zerg compositions, Hydralisks are generally considered bad units by Zergs. As a Toss, I find them annoying, and I never understood why people complained that getting Hydralisks (T2) meant we'd get Collosi and HTs (T3), cos that seems to be the common logic in how to play, if I have an efficient response, go for it. On that train of thought, I'd like to propose the idea, that Blizzard is trying to consider ways to have all units used. This may affect balance, but numbers can be adjusted once a better picture if obtained. Consider this, If Infestors aren't enough to deal with mass air, you're forced into getting Hydralisks or Corruptors, that's probably what they want. So (BING!) 2 units that aren't used as often come in, PLUS people will complain about Mutas less cos Muta-gas is now used by Corruptors. So then what, Tanks, HTs, Collosi, or Marines and Stalkers. What deals pretty well against those would be... Your T3. Maybe not entirely cost efficient with the Corruptor-> Broodlord example but I mean if you're gonna have to get them, don't whine about them and refuse to consider teching. So (BING!) T3 has now been 'encouraged'. Yeah this as a whole might require Zergs to change their style, but hey, we play the game. Yeah, you might be angry, it's a complete change on things, not completely for the better, but doesn't the ability for all units to fit into a niche contribute to game diversity too?
Key repeating thing. OMG
Okay, that's MY opinion, and please even if you strongly disagree with my opinion, just be nice k? XS
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On your first point GFree, I've been doing a fast +1 ZvP style (for ranged). It is very effective, and it helps vs early voidrays/dts off 1 base, or if he expands it is already accessed to get some defence for that.
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On December 07 2010 01:35 GFree wrote:
Next regarding Fungal nerfing... I'd like to think that the issue wasn't the Infestors themselves, but what the Infestors did to Zerg compositions, Hydralisks are generally considered bad units by Zergs. As a Toss, I find them annoying, and I never understood why people complained that getting Hydralisks (T2) meant we'd get Collosi and HTs (T3), cos that seems to be the common logic in how to play, if I have an efficient response, go for it. On that train of thought, I'd like to propose the idea, that Blizzard is trying to consider ways to have all units used. This may affect balance, but numbers can be adjusted once a better picture if obtained. Consider this, If Infestors aren't enough to deal with mass air, you're forced into getting Hydralisks or Corruptors, that's probably what they want. So (BING!) 2 units that aren't used as often come in, PLUS people will complain about Mutas less cos Muta-gas is now used by Corruptors. So then what, Tanks, HTs, Collosi, or Marines and Stalkers. What deals pretty well against those would be... Your T3. Maybe not entirely cost efficient with the Corruptor-> Broodlord example but I mean if you're gonna have to get them, don't whine about them and refuse to consider teching. So (BING!) T3 has now been 'encouraged'. Yeah this as a whole might require Zergs to change their style, but hey, we play the game. Yeah, you might be angry, it's a complete change on things, not completely for the better, but doesn't the ability for all units to fit into a niche contribute to game diversity too?
Key repeating thing. OMG
Okay, that's MY opinion, and please even if you strongly disagree with my opinion, just be nice k? XS
The problem with that is it means Zerg don't have multiple compositions. ZvT you are getting shoehorned into mutas now to pick off medivacs/ravens/banshees/vikings. ZvP infestors are already hard to make use of and phoenixes provided the only real time when it was safe to pull them out.
Hydras and corruptors in ZvP were way way more common than infestors.
The change doesn't encourage T3 (other than the ultra splash change maybe doing so a bit). Zergs don't go tier 3 earlier/more often because it's a difficult transition that takes a lot of time and gas to work.
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I don't like this.....I think BLZ should buff T's late game, nerf P's late game and buff early game, nerf Z's late game, especially on the number of lava....
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Are any of the Bo calculators updated for the patch?
I'm curious if anyone can come up witha ny nasty Phoenix rushes. Like whats the fastest to 4 Phoenixes? It has to be really fast these days--fast enough to cause devastating early game eco damage by queen and overlord sniping.
Also, I wonder if anyone has come up with any good Hallucination rushes?
before detection gets on the field, Hallucination can just wreck people. I bet you could make a nasty PvZ timing push with a front line consisting entirely of Hallucinated Zealots.
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On December 07 2010 01:44 Camlito wrote:
On your first point GFree, I've been doing a fast +1 ZvP style (for ranged). It is very effective, and it helps vs early voidrays/dts off 1 base, or if he expands it is already accessed to get some defence for that.
Curious, do you open with early Roaches? Can you still FE? Do Hydras come out faster than usual in pre 1.2 PTR patches?
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On December 07 2010 01:35 GFree wrote:
Next regarding Fungal nerfing... I'd like to think that the issue wasn't the Infestors themselves, but what the Infestors did to Zerg compositions, Hydralisks are generally considered bad units by Zergs. As a Toss, I find them annoying, and I never understood why people complained that getting Hydralisks (T2) meant we'd get Collosi and HTs (T3), cos that seems to be the common logic in how to play, if I have an efficient response, go for it. On that train of thought, I'd like to propose the idea, that Blizzard is trying to consider ways to have all units used. This may affect balance, but numbers can be adjusted once a better picture if obtained. Consider this, If Infestors aren't enough to deal with mass air, you're forced into getting Hydralisks or Corruptors, that's probably what they want. So (BING!) 2 units that aren't used as often come in
The pain with hydra's isn't that they're that weak in itself, it's that they're too slow. Off creep they're a laugh, but even on creep they don't have the mobility that the other races AA have (stimmed marines, blink stalkers). Give the hydra's a speed upgrade (for 100/100 or 150/150, build time 60-120 seconds?) that would actually allow them to somewhat catch up with air units and we'd be more than pleased.
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If they gave hydralisks a speed upgrade (off creep) then I think the infestor nerf might be resonable. Zerg doesn't have any units that can deal with air units off creep, both queens and hydras are to slow, and zerg can't be assumed to spread their creep all around the map. Protoss have their blink stalkers and terran has their stimmed marines.
The change where we no longer can hold down a button to create a lot of the same unit is silly. It will probably hurt my keyboard more than it will hurt my macro.
If they do give the hydralisks a buff then I think this might be a great patch for zerg diversity.
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On December 07 2010 01:53 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 01:35 GFree wrote:
Next regarding Fungal nerfing... I'd like to think that the issue wasn't the Infestors themselves, but what the Infestors did to Zerg compositions, Hydralisks are generally considered bad units by Zergs. As a Toss, I find them annoying, and I never understood why people complained that getting Hydralisks (T2) meant we'd get Collosi and HTs (T3), cos that seems to be the common logic in how to play, if I have an efficient response, go for it. On that train of thought, I'd like to propose the idea, that Blizzard is trying to consider ways to have all units used. This may affect balance, but numbers can be adjusted once a better picture if obtained. Consider this, If Infestors aren't enough to deal with mass air, you're forced into getting Hydralisks or Corruptors, that's probably what they want. So (BING!) 2 units that aren't used as often come in, PLUS people will complain about Mutas less cos Muta-gas is now used by Corruptors. So then what, Tanks, HTs, Collosi, or Marines and Stalkers. What deals pretty well against those would be... Your T3. Maybe not entirely cost efficient with the Corruptor-> Broodlord example but I mean if you're gonna have to get them, don't whine about them and refuse to consider teching. So (BING!) T3 has now been 'encouraged'. Yeah this as a whole might require Zergs to change their style, but hey, we play the game. Yeah, you might be angry, it's a complete change on things, not completely for the better, but doesn't the ability for all units to fit into a niche contribute to game diversity too?
Key repeating thing. OMG
Okay, that's MY opinion, and please even if you strongly disagree with my opinion, just be nice k? XS The problem with that is it means Zerg don't have multiple compositions. ZvT you are getting shoehorned into mutas now to pick off medivacs/ravens/banshees/vikings. ZvP infestors are already hard to make use of and phoenixes provided the only real time when it was safe to pull them out. Hydras and corruptors in ZvP were way way more common than infestors. The change doesn't encourage T3 (other than the ultra splash change maybe doing so a bit). Zergs don't go tier 3 earlier/more often because it's a difficult transition that takes a lot of time and gas to work.
Hmm... Were there any safe ways to go for early Infestors that didn't have you getting punished by an early drop? I think it still comes back to scouting right? That said, the loss of the Medivac dealt a harsh blow to a Terran. Mutas seemed like a better, safer option even before this, it just means, Mutas need to also be aware of what tried to sneak out of bases.
Infestors have a great anti-ground synergy with Ultralisks wouldn't you say? Aside from that, you're right, I never saw them much. Then again, don't some people consider Infestors NP supporting Roach-Hydra against Collosi decent?
As for the 'encourage' thing, I use the ' ' cos I was being sarcastic. I meant they're trying to force it. But thinking about it, players already save up on Gas to bust out Mutas, suddenly they can't spam all those Mutas at one go cos they need to consider teching faster. Doesn't touch Mutas but weakens Muta-Ling. I'm not saying weakening it was the right idea, but trying to gel it together, it SEEMS, to me at least, to have some sort of overall effect.
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Yeah, Zerg suffers from anti-air mobility issues. Air harassment and drops are going to be more challenging to deal with. Fungal growth and infested terrans were a decent combo -- but more often than not they needed lots of mutalisks or hydras to finish off any air harassment.
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On December 07 2010 01:58 Demus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 01:35 GFree wrote:
Next regarding Fungal nerfing... I'd like to think that the issue wasn't the Infestors themselves, but what the Infestors did to Zerg compositions, Hydralisks are generally considered bad units by Zergs. As a Toss, I find them annoying, and I never understood why people complained that getting Hydralisks (T2) meant we'd get Collosi and HTs (T3), cos that seems to be the common logic in how to play, if I have an efficient response, go for it. On that train of thought, I'd like to propose the idea, that Blizzard is trying to consider ways to have all units used. This may affect balance, but numbers can be adjusted once a better picture if obtained. Consider this, If Infestors aren't enough to deal with mass air, you're forced into getting Hydralisks or Corruptors, that's probably what they want. So (BING!) 2 units that aren't used as often come in The pain with hydra's isn't that they're that weak in itself, it's that they're too slow. Off creep they're a laugh, but even on creep they don't have the mobility that the other races AA have (stimmed marines, blink stalkers). Give the hydra's a speed upgrade (for 100/100 or 150/150, build time 60-120 seconds?) that would actually allow them to somewhat catch up with air units and we'd be more than pleased.
Well for starters, it has less mobility, but of the 3, Hydralisks, S.Marines, and B.Stalkers, I think some things need to be considered.
Blink gives Stalkers mobility to chase harrassment (we'll use Mutas), but Stalkers alone can't hold off other units from Zerg and Terran. Just Stalkers means we might have some issues holding off any Roach-Ling mixes. Not impossible, but issues. Marauders from Terran, nuff said.
Stimmed Marines, lose health. Sure, all that might be lost in the end is energy if the Terran has Medivacs, but that's energy that won't be around later. S Marines with low on energy Medivacs are also gonna have problems with Roaches, or hey, even your nerfed Infestors. Or against Toss, good FF use.
Hydraslisks, however, deal pretty damn good against anything else, and buy you lots of time. On the defensive with good scouting, they have a really high DPS, take out Gateway units, and handle Bio pressure at the front pretty well. So perhaps, you shouldn't make too many Hydras, but instead immediately think of what you want to tech to when you feel forced to make them?
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On December 07 2010 00:54 Zoler wrote:
Is there any date set for this patch?
No set date but ETA is sometime this month.
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Yeah, Zerg suffers from anti-air mobility issues. Air harassment and drops are going to be more challenging to deal with. Fungal growth and infested terrans were a decent combo -- but more often than not they needed lots of mutalisks or hydras to finish off any air harassment.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Zerg start saving up Larvae more lategame. Instead of losing an entire army and then making 60 roaches, they'll make like 50 roaches and leave some larvae behind at their expos just in case--if harassment comes by air, hatch some Hydras or Mutas the way Toss warps in units at their expos. if the harassment doesn't come, then turn those larvae into regular attacking units to supplement the next big push.
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Infestors have a great anti-ground synergy with Ultralisks wouldn't you say? Aside from that, you're right, I never saw them much. Then again, don't some people consider Infestors NP supporting Roach-Hydra against Collosi decent?
Using Infestors to support Roach Hydra army compositions is an absolute must if you are up against any colos or HT. Even if your creep spread is so perfect that your hydra's and roaches move like the wind some well placed storms or well positioned colossi doomballs would annihilate your ground army. Transitioning to t3 is still too slow and gas intensive for zerg and this is never a solution. The easier (lower apm) way to deal with these deathballs is usually speedlings roaches and corruptors to snipe down the colossi, leaving the infestor already underused in lower brackets.
With the change to infestors they are now also useless against air, making a spire not just an obvious choice for the lower brackets but also making it a must for the higher brackets.
This is a great loss and I hope they reverse their choice on the infestor.
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Could someone do me a huge favor?
I'm unable to try the patch out (Europe), but would very much like to know if Blizzard made it possible to reassign Shift and Ctrl to other keys? For instance have B act as Control. Is it possible?
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On December 07 2010 02:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:
if harassment comes by air, hatch some Hydras or Mutas the way Toss warps in units at their expos.
Considering that Hydralisks and Mutalisks both take 33 seconds to build, building them when you get harassed isn't exactly a feasible idea. Especially since they both aren't good vs Marines+Medivacs in a straight-on fight, they're only good to pick off the Medivacs before they drop.
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On December 07 2010 02:27 Daewon wrote:
Could someone do me a huge favor?
I'm unable to try the patch out (Europe), but would very much like to know if Blizzard made it possible to reassign Shift and Ctrl to other keys? For instance have B act as Control. Is it possible?
yes, i just messed with it a bit. but the problem with using B, is that every spell, ability, unit, building assigned to B will no longer work. those items will need a new hotkey other than B from then on.
it looks like every hotkey is going to be customizable to a user. and since it's saved on battle.net, those hotkeys are going to be saved to your profile so it'll be used on any PC you play SC2 on
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I don't get the PTR I'm like 10th in my division in Diamond in the real ladder and in PTR I'm like bronze.
and every player i face is in Gold but it some like 200 APM gosu. This PTR is really making me question the way we are placed in the ladder i mean i know APM isn't a real judge of skill but w/e but if literally all my placement matches were against someone who woulda been 2200 diamond and i win 2 of those i'm not sure why i deserve to be placed in bronze :/
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On December 07 2010 02:48 Binky1842 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 02:27 Daewon wrote:
Could someone do me a huge favor?
I'm unable to try the patch out (Europe), but would very much like to know if Blizzard made it possible to reassign Shift and Ctrl to other keys? For instance have B act as Control. Is it possible? yes, i just messed with it a bit. but the problem with using B, is that every spell, ability, unit, building assigned to B will no longer work. those items will need a new hotkey other than B from then on. it looks like every hotkey is going to be customizable to a user. and since it's saved on battle.net, those hotkeys are going to be saved to your profile so it'll be used on any PC you play SC2 on
Absolutely amazing! Thank you, you just made my day!
Kinda rare nowadays for a game to allow some of the more basic keys to be remapped, at least as far as I know. This basically means I won't have to mess around with KeyTweak or AutoHotkey. A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!!
As for B not working for anything else, no worries I'm gonna completely redo every single key:
Gonna end up with something like this:
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9898/testan.gif)
Red and purple keys are dead keys
Green keys along with the remaining white ones in the middle are for the basic command cart
Rest are self explanatory
Its not completely done yet, but the basic idea is to have the thumb over B (Ctrl) and the pinky over Shift (Tab), hopefully both APM and accuracy improves with this.
BTW you are certain that Ctrl is remappable and not just Ctrl + 1 - 9? I'm not sure that's the same thing.
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On December 07 2010 02:55 Raiznhell wrote:
I don't get the PTR I'm like 10th in my division in Diamond in the real ladder and in PTR I'm like bronze.
and every player i face is in Gold but it some like 200 APM gosu. This PTR is really making me question the way we are placed in the ladder i mean i know APM isn't a real judge of skill but w/e but if literally all my placement matches were against someone who woulda been 2200 diamond and i win 2 of those i'm not sure why i deserve to be placed in bronze :/
The only people playing the PTR are people who care about esports, which general tends to be high diamond level players. I'm 1700 diamond and in bronze on the ptr.
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EPT
