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On December 05 2010 12:38 yandere991 wrote:
I understand what your saying but basically what it amounts to is 1 careless mistake ends up with a critical number of units lost instantaneously. Whether such a extreme situation is warranted is debatable. Imagine if they reduced archon merge time to 3 seconds and gave HTs vortex for 150 energy, I for one would be really opposed this as you could send 1 templar to vortex, warpin 5 others then merge 3 archons and send them in for rape when a muta flock came to close to a stray templar.
One careless mistake like flying 30 mutas bunched up near 3 Thors? Because you can lose 30 mutas that way to one careless mistake, and it doesn't need energy, or micro on the part of the other player...
If Blizzard are trying to get rid of that aspect, they need to remove storm and Thor splash and possibly banelings and tanks too.
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On December 05 2010 12:18 yandere991 wrote:
(I mean the guinea pig game made me sick)
Ya, me too. When I saw that I realized that fungal truly is the most powerful spell in the game. And, despite playing Protoss, I'm cool with that. I just wish they would buff some Toss spells instead of nerfing fungal. Make storm slow units caught under it, perhaps? Maybe that's too much to ask!
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On December 05 2010 12:38 yandere991 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 12:18 yandere991 wrote:On December 05 2010 12:14 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 12:12 CTuro wrote:
Isn't all of this discussion essentially untested theorycrafting?
I think these changes need a solid week of play by everyone on the servers to actually get some meaningful information about the patch changes. i played 20 games and it just got so discouraging to me that i couldn't do anymore. Being forced into muta-ling-bling +optional roach in every matchup is really really bad. and yes 20 isn't a ton, but the fact that i got so discouraged so quickly is a bad sign, PS. i was the guy constantly playign vs Terrans during beta and doing fine vs them ect. i don't quit easily. Maybe blizzard is passing the shitball from 1 mirror to another every couple of patches and now its the ceremonial handing of the ball from PvP to ZvZ. On a serious note I'm surprised at the complete change to fungal, they could just add a concussive effect to it so it won't be as penalizing if you get caught (I mean the guinea pig game made me sick) but still deter careless air movement. watching guinea pig do that just made me realize he has never come up against fungals before. in ZvZ on the ladder you can QUICKLY tell who has faced infestors and who has not. those who have not tend to lose to fungal easily, while those who do, split their units up into two groups, or send 2-3 in to attack at a time (vs infestors) against which the infestor has to waste a fungal on that, or die. and then they run in with the rest and dominate. also the fact that guinea sat his pheonixes by the infestor for a good 3 seconds before the fungal hit proves he hasn't been in that pheonix vs muta infestor scenerio, a protoss used to it would lift the infestor with 1 pheonix. then run in with the rest. and keep the infestor lifted while the pheonixes run away again. and you lose a pheonix yes, but thats so much better than 6-7 of them. Also, it's not only ZvZ thats getting messed up, but being FORCED into muta to stop drops vs T and now needing alot of air to stop protoss air, is messing up those matchups too. ANY race shouldn't be forced to have a single option at any pass. unless it's because of the opposing players strategy, and not built into the game. I understand what your saying but basically what it amounts to is 1 careless mistake ends up with a critical number of units lost instantaneously. Whether such a extreme situation is warranted is debatable.
I like it, the audiance sure as hell would like it, too.
If you're careless, you get punished.
That's Starcraft, there were so many similiar stuff in bw (scourge, hold position lurkers, reavers, storm, tank, spider mines etc.), and it didn't hurt at all. Imo sc2 has to less of such stuff, but that's another topic.
It also just adds possible mindgames. If you have a phoenix group of 7, seeing an infestation pit puts you in awe and makes you think twice about raiding an economy line.
Great stuff, sure hope as hell they keep it that way.
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On December 05 2010 12:45 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:18 yandere991 wrote:
(I mean the guinea pig game made me sick) Ya, me too. When I saw that I realized that fungal truly is the most powerful spell in the game. And, despite playing Protoss, I'm cool with that. I just wish they would buff some Toss spells instead of nerfing fungal. Make storm slow units caught under it, perhaps? Maybe that's too much to ask!
yeah fungal is really really good. but apart from fungal zerg has no deal decent spells, just a bunch of mediocre ones, protoss has groups of versitile powerful spells. and i think thats the difference. really.
i mean forcefield, hallucination, guardian shield, feedback, and storm are all great spells. and definitely all in the good-gamechanging range. Hell even your throw-away spell (graviton beam) is good compared to the skills of the other AtA units (viking land, and corruption).
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On December 05 2010 12:35 Myles wrote:
Damn CatZ just put down such a beautiful FG on a trio of Medivacs that were only a second or two away from an undefended hatch. I'm really going to be dissapointed if they remove this aspect of FG which is rewards skill and is very entertaining to see. Please don't do it Blizzard.
lol clicking F on a unit which then gets paralyzed and loses health isn't exactly the most skillful thing you can do in this game. It's actually very easy to do.
Whenever you do see a fungal go off like that on a Dship, it's 100% loss to the Terran, and the only cost to the Z is basically 75 nrg on his infestor...yeah...you can see why that's a problem can't you?
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United States7166 Posts
on the other hand, not getting supply blocked for 90 seconds is also a useful skill toi have
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On December 05 2010 12:50 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:35 Myles wrote:
Damn CatZ just put down such a beautiful FG on a trio of Medivacs that were only a second or two away from an undefended hatch. I'm really going to be dissapointed if they remove this aspect of FG which is rewards skill and is very entertaining to see. Please don't do it Blizzard. lol clicking F on a unit which then gets paralyzed and loses health isn't exactly the most skillful thing you can do in this game. It's actually very easy to do. Whenever you do see a fungal go off like that on a Dship, it's 100% loss to the Terran, and the only cost to the Z is basically 75 nrg on his infestor...yeah...you can see why that's a problem can't you?
lol can you not see the problem of forcing zergs to go muta's with no other options? You do see the problem dont' you? No you probably don't so I well explain.
Right now zergs can fight drops with infestors or muta's (or both if they prefer). Now with this patch they only have muta's which as the game goes later and later and when your playing a good terran your muta's won't get as effective unless the terran lets you take 8 bases or something.
So the only option zerg can do is muta's or lose to drop play every game. Now do you see the problem? I doubt it but Jinro even thinks this is a dumb change as it now forces every zvt to be muta heavy or might is well gg when you start playing otherwise as a good zerg (not you) well actually abuse drop ships especially if the zerg doesn't have mutalisk out (and hydra are a joke zvt).
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oh that crazy avilo.
lol clicking A on a unit which then gets slowed and dies isn't exactly the most skillful thing you can do in this game. It's actually very easy to do.
Marauders are fun too avilo. :D
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is there any particular reason to why they changed fungal growth to not effect air units?
i play alot of custom games (in particular marine arena) and i have to say that this change will be annoying because of the dominant air units. and as far as ladder games go fungal helps ALOT against mutas and voids.... so what was there LEGIT reason to change it?
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On December 05 2010 12:50 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:35 Myles wrote:
Damn CatZ just put down such a beautiful FG on a trio of Medivacs that were only a second or two away from an undefended hatch. I'm really going to be dissapointed if they remove this aspect of FG which is rewards skill and is very entertaining to see. Please don't do it Blizzard. lol clicking F on a unit which then gets paralyzed and loses health isn't exactly the most skillful thing you can do in this game. It's actually very easy to do. Whenever you do see a fungal go off like that on a Dship, it's 100% loss to the Terran, and the only cost to the Z is basically 75 nrg on his infestor...yeah...you can see why that's a problem can't you? You realize the same argument can be made to every spell in the game right?
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On December 05 2010 12:55 Ballistixz wrote:
is there any particular reason to why they changed fungal growth to not effect air units?
there is no explanation for the PTR changes afaik
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According to the Blizzard forum they acknowledge many people can't get on the PTR even though they meet the qualifications, and are looking into it. But truth is, they aren't in a hurry to fix it.
I am kind of pissed but at the same time I feel like I shouldn't care and should half expect this.
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On December 05 2010 12:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:55 Ballistixz wrote:
is there any particular reason to why they changed fungal growth to not effect air units? there is no explanation for the PTR changes afaik
According to zelniq, a reliable source told him that the change to fg was to accomodate the fact that protoss can no longer have speed voidrays any more.
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On December 05 2010 12:55 Ballistixz wrote:
is there any particular reason to why they changed fungal growth to not effect air units? Either to:
increase the effectiveness of mutas in ZvZ
make it so Muta/single fungal can no longer beat Phoenixes
Make Dropships more effective
or combination of the above
EDIT: give a buff to the now speed-upgradeless Void Ray as said in an above post
Whether or not those changes are a good thing or not? That is the question
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I don't understand the ZvT complaints.
Did people actually NOT go mutas against terran before?
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On December 05 2010 13:00 Carthage wrote:
I don't understand the ZvT complaints.
Did people actually NOT go mutas against terran before?
Yes it was actually pretty viable to a point but you needed infestors of course or again drop ships would dominate you. Now its not going to be viable in zvt.
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On December 05 2010 12:59 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:56 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 12:55 Ballistixz wrote:
is there any particular reason to why they changed fungal growth to not effect air units? there is no explanation for the PTR changes afaik According to zelniq, a reliable source told him that the change to fg was to accomodate the fact that protoss can no longer have speed voidrays any more.
thats complete nonsense though, why would they affect 2 completely separate matchups just because void speed was removed, was there a group of people using speed voids to counter infestors? why.
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On December 05 2010 13:00 Carthage wrote:
I don't understand the ZvT complaints.
Did people actually NOT go mutas against terran before?
there tend to be two schools of ZvT, INfestor zergs (like myself) and muta-zergs. infestor zerg is alot scarier(for both sides) at times and relies on being overall better than your opponent to win (and you win handily when you do so). while muta-zerg tends to be able to come back from a losing position more easily. it really was preference.
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On December 05 2010 13:01 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 13:00 Carthage wrote:
I don't understand the ZvT complaints.
Did people actually NOT go mutas against terran before? Yes it was actually pretty viable to a point but you needed infestors of course or again drop ships would dominate you. Now its not going to be viable in zvt.
Building life: Increase + Medivac: Slowed down in the previous patch stopped drops. There is almost no situation in which going muta/bling is not enough to stop drop ships especially with ovvie/creep spread to actually spot the drops...infestors were just an add on to stop MMM.
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On December 05 2010 12:54 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:50 avilo wrote:On December 05 2010 12:35 Myles wrote:
Damn CatZ just put down such a beautiful FG on a trio of Medivacs that were only a second or two away from an undefended hatch. I'm really going to be dissapointed if they remove this aspect of FG which is rewards skill and is very entertaining to see. Please don't do it Blizzard. lol clicking F on a unit which then gets paralyzed and loses health isn't exactly the most skillful thing you can do in this game. It's actually very easy to do. Whenever you do see a fungal go off like that on a Dship, it's 100% loss to the Terran, and the only cost to the Z is basically 75 nrg on his infestor...yeah...you can see why that's a problem can't you? lol can you not see the problem of forcing zergs to go muta's with no other options? You do see the problem dont' you? No you probably don't so I well explain. Right now zergs can fight drops with infestors or muta's (or both if they prefer). Now with this patch they only have muta's which as the game goes later and later and when your playing a good terran your muta's won't get as effective unless the terran lets you take 8 bases or something. So the only option zerg can do is muta's or lose to drop play every game. Now do you see the problem? I doubt it but Jinro even thinks this is a dumb change as it now forces every zvt to be muta heavy or might is well gg when you start playing otherwise as a good zerg (not you) well actually abuse drop ships especially if the zerg doesn't have mutalisk out (and hydra are a joke zvt).
Agreed. Zerg now is forced to go mutas. But the thing is, rarely do I see any ZvT where zerg goes anything other than muta/ling/bling + roach anyways. Reason? Hydras suck and roaches get owned by marauders. Also, infestors will not give you the map control to defend from drops. The problem is thus, not this new change, but something more fundamental about ZvT.
Also, I don't really understand why you say mutas get less effective as the game goes later on. Its actually the opposite imo because the large cloud of mutas you see late game can wreck bases and start magic boxing thors with minimal losses. And as more and more mutas accumulate it become very hard for the terran to defend. I don't see how people can say that T has a direct way to handle mutalisks. Marines gotta stim and run around, thors will just get magic-boxed and turrets will eventually die even with repair.
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EPT
