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This thread is going to serve as an announcement thread for anything in regards to any of my Refined Maps.
The Refined Map project hopes to make minor edits to all of the Blizzard maps, making their asymmetrical spawns even for tournament play. The ideal is to fix any positional problems between spawns without changing the fundamental architecture, features or personality of the map, so the map will play exactly the same strategically, but no longer favor one spawn point over another.
Tournaments using Refined Maps
GMMA Invitational
The ALERTcup open
The Average Joe Tournament
AstaRTG ANZ Open - Early December
The SPGL Weekly #14 - 12/12
Hyper Crew Open #8 - 12/10
The SPGL Weekly #13 - Concluded
NC Gaming Invitational - Concluded
Hyper Crew Open #7 - Concluded
SCEU Cup #4 - Concluded
RTS Lounge's 11-27 Tournament - Concluded
1v1 PAM Tournament 11/26 - Concluded
SCEU Cup #3 - Concluded
Other events using Refined Maps
VT Gaming team practice, as well as any VT run KOTH or clan wars
Hyper Crew's Weekly King of the Hills - Every Thursday
Thundertoss's top 200 KOTH
All Maps can be found on NA, EU and SEA by creating a custom game and searching for "Refined". They can also be downloaded here.
A little about the process used to make and test these maps:
+ Show Spoiler +Each of these maps is made with extensive help from the community, using human resources at Team Liquid, Starcraftarena.net, PlayXP, SC2mapster.com, and various proteams to find asymmetrical imbalances with a map. In each instance the community is polled to figure out which way a positional problem should be fixed. Once a map has been balanced, it goes through a testing period where it is tested by progamers in actual high level games, before it is cleared for tournament play. VT Gaming helps with this primarily, although several other professional gamers help with this part of the process. VT Gaming exclusively uses the refined versions of these maps for their team practice, so the maps will continue to be tested at a high level long after they are cleared. I review every test game replay, to assure that the changes do not cause any pathing problems or new imbalances. Below are some quotes from progamers and community leaders about the map project, or individual maps specifically: From VT: + Show Spoiler +VT Mirhi:
I actually like this. VT Tranqfx:
yea, looks good VT bLuR:i like these changes  VT Trump:
I also like the map. VT Whiplash:
I'm aware of the positional balance on this map in ZvZ, your balance changes seem to address it. Looks good. VT Godder:
It's not a big deal but it is one extra creep tumor. VT Swu:
I like it. VT DesRow:
That reworks is incredible. The map needs this to be balanced. VT Genocide:
Changes make sense. Good on ya. VT Spades:
Seems alright. From others: + Show Spoiler +From Team Liquid's Liquid`Nazgul:
Looks good. Excellent work. From MouseSports MorroW:
i like it because scrap station has these positional imbalances that u mention here, the creep spread in the main to ramp and all the wallin things, is actually a pretty big deal at high level From Lazarus Gamings HDStarcraft:
It's nice. More balanced. From iCCup.Diamond, iCCups head admin:
Looks pretty good, good job! From Zelniq:
this thread needs more attention as it's really stupid that maps like this one have pointless imbalances. From EG Colbi, manager of Team Evil Geniuses:
I like the map. From Noah Lazarus, manager of Lazarus Gaming:
This is a great idea. From Naniwa:
This Scrap Station looks nice. This is the way it should be.
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Refined Scrap Station
+ Show Spoiler +Download link: http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/project/76336/refined-scrap-stationScrap Station is a good example of an excellent map with a few slight problems. A while back Zelniq posted a thread on Team Liquid illustrating these issues in detail. The biggest concern is the ramp leading to the main base, which is a different distance from the starting location depending on your spawn point. This is a large concern for Zerg. On the righthand spawn Zerg cannot effectively cover the ramp with spine crawlers on their starting creep, nor can they spread creep to the bottom of the ramp with a single tumor. Both of these things are possible on the lefthand spawn, and the progaming community has accepted at this point that ZvZ on Scrap Station unquestioningly favors the left spawn position. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/e43Im.jpg) Below are a detailed list of the changes, their reasoning and images illustrating why they were problems in the first place, and what was done to change them. Change #1:The righthand spawn locations ramp was pushed inward slightly. This prevents the problem of spine crawlers on the right spawn having bad coverage of the ramp compared to the left, and prevents the problem of needing an extra creep tumor to reach the natural on the right spawn. In order to make the number of buildings required to wall off as a FEing Protoss or Terran the same, a doodad was added close to the cliff edge. Walling at the ramp is the same. Finally, to fix the issue of the righthand main now being smaller, some space was added on the far right side for tech buildings, similar to the space on the far left of the lefthand main. The old and new righthand ramp: + Show Spoiler +Spine Crawlers at the ramp: + Show Spoiler +Number of Creep Tumors to connect main to natural: + Show Spoiler +Different possible wall-offs: + Show Spoiler +The slightly enlarged area of the right main: + Show Spoiler +Change #2:A doodad has been placed behind the destructible rocks on the left-hand spawn. Before, it would take an extra building to wall off behind the rocks on the left spawn compared to the right. + Show Spoiler +Change #3:The chokepoint south of the natural on the right hand side of the map has been slightly enlarged, making it impossible to wall with 2 buildings on the right hand side. It was originally possible to wall with 2 buildings here on the right side but not on the left. + Show Spoiler +Change #4:Previously, there was a spot on the island on the south spawn side where Infestors could spit Infested Terrans over the gap, even though Stalkers cannot blink over the island. This spot has been removed to make this no longer possible. + Show Spoiler +Map Analyzer imagery of the changes, for reference: + Show Spoiler +The map is currently online and up to date as "Refined Scrap Station" on the North America, Europe and Southeast Asian servers. It can be found by searching for "Refined".
Refined Metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +Download link: http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/view/135230/refined-metalopolisWhile Metalopolis is generally considered a pretty good map with few imbalances and issues, like most Blizzard maps it too is asymmetrical, and has some minor problems. The primary problem is the difference in air distance behind the mains of each spawn location. This makes air harass much more powerful at the north spawn location compared to the others. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yWn0J.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/0keUf.jpg) This, and two other minor problems, have been changed. Change 1:The air distance behind the main mineral line was evened out for the 4 spawns. Previously the north spawn had much more air distance than the other three, and the south spawns air distance was so small you actually couldn't click there without tilting the camera. The changed air distance is even between the two extremes, at 5 range between the edge of the map and the closest point of the main base. This is enough for an air unit to comfortably get behind the mineral line, but not enough for it to kite enemy defenders. Pictures: + Show Spoiler +Change 2:The inefficient gas geysers at the north and south spawns were fixed. It's kind of hard to explain this through pictures, but there are certain points where 3 workers only mine a geyser with 90% efficiency. This can slow early game tech by 5-10 seconds, especially if you accidentally take the bad geyser first. See this thread for details. Pictures: + Show Spoiler +Change 3:The natural expansions were slightly edited, to make walling at the natural the same for all four spawns. This had the added effect of reducing the size of the west spawn main, which was substantially larger than the other 3. Note that these pictures show the smallest possible wall (fewest number of required buildings), not necessarily the best possible wall. Pictures: + Show Spoiler +And for you map analyzers, we have some map analyzer imagery: + Show Spoiler +Metalopolis -![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/gMOvU.jpg) Refined Metalopolis -![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CHUFZ.jpg) The map is currently online and up to date as "Refined Metalopolis" on the North America, Europe and Southeast Asian servers. It can be found by searching for "Refined".
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This is fantastic! I fully support this refined map!
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Great job. As a z player, I love not having to fret over which spawn I'll get if I want to use spine crawlers to kill hellions on the ground. I hope Blizzard fixes this map on ladder!
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With the right-hand ramp being pushed back, I do notice that the entrance to the natural right below the ramp now looks larger than that of the left-hand side. Perhaps, instead of throwing the doodad at the left-hand destructible debris, you could just move the hole a bit up and to the right at the right-hand natural. That way, you fix it being walled off by one building only as well as the natural's entrance.
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Wow, thanks for all your hard work. I support these changes. Most of them look perfectly done.
Now we have to petition Blizzard to get this version of the map into the ladder.
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Damn, looks solid, hope it gets passed into the ladder; because spawn imbalances are inexcusable to be honest.
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great work
i'm loling at all of the imbalances on this map. i didn't even realize most of them. thanks for your time and effort in correcting these
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fucking amazing. now on to... steppes of war with the col cliff-walking distance from low ground to naturals =]
blizzard should give you a small sum of commission ;D
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change 2 bothered me so much =P, thanks for fixing
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I'm told Hyper Crew is now going to be using Refined Scrap Station for their weekly Thursday King of the Hill events.
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blizzard really should look into dong all these changes
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Looks pretty good, only thing I'd ponder is if you considered the high ground defense disadvantage you created on the right had spawn by pushing the ramp back, and re orienting a wall off there.
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Interesting initiative, hope it works out :D
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Easier to wall, easier to spread creep, bigger chokes?
It's a good thing you made these changes, otherwise this map would be way too hard for zerg... /nts
Good changes though, nice to see someone take the initiative to fix Blizzard's mistakes. Maps need lots of work, good job!
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Doesn't Shakuras Plateau have positional defects too? The northern spawns have a far bigger gap behind the main for harassment as opposed to the southern spawns.
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Hopefully your map will be successfull, so more tournaments get aware of your refined version
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VT Gaming has said they will now be using Refined Scrap Station for any and all upcoming VT run King of the Hills, Clan Wars and tournaments.
Check them out at http://vtgaming.net/blog/
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Good to see that your efforts are paying off in some extent... keep up the good work man
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Thanks man.
I still need more events to sign off on it. If you're running any kind of event and are going to use the map let me know, so I can add you to the list. The more people using it, the more people will feel comfortable using it.
I also need the map hosted on the other servers. It's on NA, SEA and EU currently. How many other servers are there? I'm told there's a separete South American server? And I need somebody with a KR account to host it there too.
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I can only hope blizzard takes this and replaces the map in the ladder. I don't play zerg but the map should be balanced better, having only 2 spawns. It just makes for better play imo.
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So there's another imbalance on scrap station. The right hand side the destrible debris hole can be blocked by one pylon, on the left hand side it's wider and takes at least 2 pylons (maybe another hex).
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On November 27 2010 09:47 MoreFasho wrote:
So there's another imbalance on scrap station. The right hand side the destrible debris hole can be blocked by one pylon, on the left hand side it's wider and takes at least 2 pylons (maybe another hex).
Already fixed it, check the pictures
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Beautiful. Ketara, do you have an email? Or can you PM me where I can get the refined scrap station. Clan Relentless Heroes (www.relentlessheroes.com) hosts a bunch of KOTH, so I will suggest it to be used.
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I was checking out that Refined Scrap Station map (cool idea, but i honestly think all blizzard maps need to be ...scrapped ) and i noticed in the SCMapAnalyser image that the xel'naga tower covers the right-side choke but not the left.
I would have complained in the thread on TL but i don't have a forum account there.. so i'm complaining here. If you can call this complaining.
Forwarding this message for Ketara to take note of.
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On November 28 2010 23:03 SeeeeD wrote:Show nested quote +I was checking out that Refined Scrap Station map (cool idea, but i honestly think all blizzard maps need to be ...scrapped ) and i noticed in the SCMapAnalyser image that the xel'naga tower covers the right-side choke but not the left.
I would have complained in the thread on TL but i don't have a forum account there.. so i'm complaining here. If you can call this complaining.
Forwarding this message for Ketara to take note of.
thats a good catch
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Credit to Dragonfly from SEA
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On November 28 2010 23:03 SeeeeD wrote:Show nested quote +I was checking out that Refined Scrap Station map (cool idea, but i honestly think all blizzard maps need to be ...scrapped ) and i noticed in the SCMapAnalyser image that the xel'naga tower covers the right-side choke but not the left.
I would have complained in the thread on TL but i don't have a forum account there.. so i'm complaining here. If you can call this complaining.
Forwarding this message for Ketara to take note of.
I'm aware. We already talked about it amongst VT, and decided that it's a minor problem and fixing it would require the area around the Xel'Naga tower to be completely remade, which would likely look bad and potentially create new problems.
It's that way on the Blizzard map too, for the record.
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I was checking out that Refined Scrap Station map (cool idea, but i honestly think all blizzard maps need to be ...scrapped )
Pretty good summary... this is a lot better than nothing but it's still a band-aid. Up to gom to fix the real problem, which is them using the ladder maps at all.
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Nice can't wait to see more updated maps. Have you submitted these to Blizzard? Maybe they will just update their maps so people can play on slightly more balanced maps in the ladder.
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There is a thread on B.net that Blizzard hasn't posted on. It's just me listing tournament after tournament using the map and the B.net trolls loling that Blizzard hasn't responded, basically.
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I think it should be changed so that the left ramp is the same as the right one, not vice versa, because it's already a zerg favored map. Looks good though.
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Very good changes, I love them all. I wish that more of our map pool would undergo this kind of revision and testing, and I applaud you for your dedication and work.
Kudos.
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I just discussed this with a friend, but instead of changing the wall-in to favor the right hand side, why not revert the ramp movement, and move the entire mineral/gas node and start location CLOSER to the ramp, solving the issues it has with creep spread and Spine Crawler placement.
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On December 02 2010 09:13 tgFringe wrote:
I just discussed this with a friend, but instead of changing the wall-in to favor the right hand side, why not revert the ramp movement, and move the entire mineral/gas node and start location CLOSER to the ramp, solving the issues it has with creep spread and Spine Crawler placement.
A couple people have suggested this. It's not as simple as you might think.
Moving the minerals and start area is easy. However, you'd then have to cut area off of the back of the right main, in order to keep the same amount of distance between the mineral line and the back of the main.
That would reduce the size of the main (more than the other fix), so you'd have to add even more area somewhere else, which could create problems with hidden tech, drops, etc.
It would also mean you'd have to move the entire island, in order to keep the distance between the island and the two mains the same.
And even after that, you'd run into problems with some other things. For example, the distance from the start location to the natural expo, the thirds etc, are all identical, and the watchtower is already slightly closer to the righthand main. Moving the starting spot would unbalance all of that, and make the issue with the watchtower worse.
I think both ways fix the issue, and both could potentially cause new problems, but the change I did is by far the simpler one, and has the minimum amount of change involved with regard to the architecture of the map. I was trying to change the map as little as possible.
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These changes all look very positive overall, and the biggest issue that I have faced as a P player was that walling off in the right position was so much more awkward than the left. It's looks like for the most part you've fixed it but now you can clearly see that the right position has sooo much more space behind the wall off, while the left position looks incredibly cramped in comparison. This can be critical for things such as cannons or tech buildings (When you don't have many pylons) and of course units. On the flip side, it looks to me like the right side has a lot more surface area for ranged units to attack your buildings (Especially the building closest to the added doodad).
TBH I can't immediately see any decent solution to this, as adding doodads to the left side to allow you to wall off further down would leave you very close to the destructible rocks (Unless I'm just crazy and looking at it wrong). Call this nitpicking but it is very very crucial in PvZ for any build that is not a 1 base all in (IMO).
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I decided that this was a good idea, but it could be done a million times better. By simply mirroring one side of the map you'd get the same map yet it would be much more balanced.
So... I did it:
+ Show Spoiler [Mirrored Scrap Station] +
It took a couple hours, with most of the time taken to just fixing the doodads and textures. I also had to resize the map to make sure the symmetry was correct. It's actually slightly smaller, but since I mirrored it based on the line of symmetry, it increased the air distance between the mains.
I hope you like it.
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That's actually really cool Stevo.
Is it published? I'll totally romp around on it tomorrow.
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On December 03 2010 18:56 Ketara wrote:
That's actually really cool Stevo.
Is it published? I'll totally romp around on it tomorrow.
Published on US as "Mirrored Scrap Station"
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Wow that a really thought out and refined change, I really like these changes and have always noticed these things on the map, especially in ZvZ when the opponent gets left spawn.
I hope this map will be spread and eventually get to blizzard for a patch:D
GJ
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Okay so, Mr. BoomStevo
I played around on the mirrored Scrap this morning. These are my thoughts:
In terms of making it symmetrical and positionally balanced, it is obviously a severe improvement. The only two errors that I found were the ground level being a little bit messed up at the 2-gateway choke on the right hand side, and the island being very very slightly offcenter to the right. If you liftoff 2 CCs and send them to the island at the same time, the one on the right gets there about 1-2 seconds faster. The island is exactly centered in the Blizz version. It probably only needs to be shifted 1 square to the left.
It's definitely a good map with the changes you did. Likely better than the changes I made.
However, from the purposes of this Refined Map Project, I have two issues with it, which I will explain.
The first issue is that the mirroring change would inevitably change gameplay on the map. It does make the air distance between the two mains larger. You've also done it so there is much less air distance behind the back of the mains than in the original version, and both of these changes directly alter the effectiveness of air harass, which is generally a key feature of this maps strategy. The latter issue can be fixed by resizing the airspace, but the former likely cannot. The travel distance for the choke covered by rocks has been increased as well it seems, making the rocks less important.
These alterations may very well make it a better map, I don't know. But what I'm trying to do with this project is fix the spawn problems without altering the strategy of the map at all, so that players can jump right into it without requiring extra practice time, and tournaments can change to it without any sort of worry. Mirroring it in this way doesn't achieve that result.
The second issue I have with it is just in regards to the concept of an asymmetrical map in general. The Blizzard maps are likely asymmetrical for a reason. It's clearly much easier to copy paste and rotate than it is to create an entire map that looks symmetrical but really isn't. Blizzard had to make them the way they did for a reason, although I'm sure some people here will disagree with me on that.
And I think the reason for that is largely in terms of the maps visual appeal. Gameplay is always more important, but SC2 is a spectator sport, and the visual appeal of the map for the spectator is important too. When the exact same features and doodads are present on both halves of the map, it is pretty clear to the viewer. Even though it's identical architecture, when I jumped into the Mirrored Scrap I instantly became aware that it's just not as pretty as the Blizzard map.
You could mitigate that a lot by having the doodads on the opposite side be different shapes but the same sizes, to keep their gameplay factor the same but change their visual look. But I think at the end of the day it still wouldn't look as good, and Blizzard having spent time to create an asymmetrical map that looks fantastic and is ALMOST perfectly balanced positionally (with a few edits) is a worthwhile thing, and something that should be maintained.
Just my 2 cents.
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I really hate to see so less love for this work. Only 3 pages of thankful comment
Here u have another one. THANK YOU
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This is such a great project and I hope it gets more attention and participation.
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Great changes, several of which I had no idea there was such imbalance about. Hoping someone chooses Scrap Station during tonight's Top 200 KOTH so we'll get to see it in action.
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On December 04 2010 02:32 Ketara wrote:
Okay so, Mr. BoomStevo
I played around on the mirrored Scrap this morning. These are my thoughts:
In terms of making it symmetrical and positionally balanced, it is obviously a severe improvement. The only two errors that I found were the ground level being a little bit messed up at the 2-gateway choke on the right hand side, and the island being very very slightly offcenter to the right. If you liftoff 2 CCs and send them to the island at the same time, the one on the right gets there about 1-2 seconds faster. The island is exactly centered in the Blizz version. It probably only needs to be shifted 1 square to the left.
It's definitely a good map with the changes you did. Likely better than the changes I made.
However, from the purposes of this Refined Map Project, I have two issues with it, which I will explain.
The first issue is that the mirroring change would inevitably change gameplay on the map. It does make the air distance between the two mains larger. You've also done it so there is much less air distance behind the back of the mains than in the original version, and both of these changes directly alter the effectiveness of air harass, which is generally a key feature of this maps strategy. The latter issue can be fixed by resizing the airspace, but the former likely cannot. The travel distance for the choke covered by rocks has been increased as well it seems, making the rocks less important.
These alterations may very well make it a better map, I don't know. But what I'm trying to do with this project is fix the spawn problems without altering the strategy of the map at all, so that players can jump right into it without requiring extra practice time, and tournaments can change to it without any sort of worry. Mirroring it in this way doesn't achieve that result.
The second issue I have with it is just in regards to the concept of an asymmetrical map in general. The Blizzard maps are likely asymmetrical for a reason. It's clearly much easier to copy paste and rotate than it is to create an entire map that looks symmetrical but really isn't. Blizzard had to make them the way they did for a reason, although I'm sure some people here will disagree with me on that.
And I think the reason for that is largely in terms of the maps visual appeal. Gameplay is always more important, but SC2 is a spectator sport, and the visual appeal of the map for the spectator is important too. When the exact same features and doodads are present on both halves of the map, it is pretty clear to the viewer. Even though it's identical architecture, when I jumped into the Mirrored Scrap I instantly became aware that it's just not as pretty as the Blizzard map.
You could mitigate that a lot by having the doodads on the opposite side be different shapes but the same sizes, to keep their gameplay factor the same but change their visual look. But I think at the end of the day it still wouldn't look as good, and Blizzard having spent time to create an asymmetrical map that looks fantastic and is ALMOST perfectly balanced positionally (with a few edits) is a worthwhile thing, and something that should be maintained.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree with Ketara here. Blizzard intentionally makes slightly asymmetrical maps, and they do a great job of obscuring the asymmetry to create good-looking maps. (How many times did you play Scrap Station before you realized it is actually quite asymmetrical? I didn't see it until I ran that pig through the map analyzer) It ultimately gives each spawn of a map its own personality. That said, I wholly support initiatives like this thread that address the worst problems of an otherwise cool map.
On a side note, BoomStevo, would your perfectly-reflected remake of Scrap Station be tighter by air and address Ketara's concerns if you mirrored the other spawn? Just a mental exercise. :oP
Anyhow, I'm of the opinion that many other TL'ers have expressed that little asymmetries are generally not worth player's designing specific strategies for (if I spawn here and he spawns there I'll do this wacky build, etc). Let me say thanks to Ketara again for trying to find the version of Scrap Station that is both eye-candy and good for competitive play. And this thread is a great resource for dedicated mappers that want to better understand what asymmetries are acceptable.
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Wow, I didn't even notice many of those differences.
Major props to you mate! People need to spread the word about these kind of problems.
The only way to get Blizzard to listen is through massive unrelenting QQ (Ex: chat channels, I mean do we really want chat channels? :D ).
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Added Refined Metalopolis to the list of tournament ready maps :D
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I really appreciate the time and effort it takes to fine tune these. I'm sure others can, as well.
Here's hoping for more recognition and success for your valuable efforts.
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Ketara you are a fucking badass, mad respect bro
please keep up the good work =)
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ya keep up the good work!
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On December 05 2010 02:30 SiGurD wrote:
ya keep up the good work!
edit: sry double posting!
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Super impressed man. I totally look forward to tournaments picking these up, looks like an impressive list already. Most of Blizzard's map concepts are good, I'm not sure why they're asymmetrical though. You'd think they'd have the resources for this kind of thing :/
Thanks anyway! Hopefully you and your army of TL testers will be able to change more maps in the future: believe me, it's appreciated!
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