EPTHe also seems to think that when Blizzard does finally allow customizable hotkeys, it will include binding hotkeys like larva inject and backspace to the mouse. Is this true? Is this legal at LANS like GSL and MLG, or is this an unfair advantage?
Hotkeys binded to the mouse, allowed or not?
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
He also seems to think that when Blizzard does finally allow customizable hotkeys, it will include binding hotkeys like larva inject and backspace to the mouse. Is this true? Is this legal at LANS like GSL and MLG, or is this an unfair advantage? | ||
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XXGeneration
United States625 Posts
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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Natt
France253 Posts
I think this is legal, though this avantage maybe considered as unfair, as it is SO MUCH SIMPLE to inject like that (once you get through the horrible adaptation period). | ||
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
I don't feel that this is fair because it is based on hardware. I also have a feeling that this isn't, but I can't completely confirm it. Being able to play the game at all is based on hardware. Most people don't have computers. Therefore, playing any computer game is unfair because it is based on hardware. (??????) I think at these tournament you can use ur own mouse but you can't install anything a pc. So this should mean you can not set macro with your mouse. You don't have to install anything on a PC in order to have mouse buttons rebound to a specific letter or number. (Macros also but they are explicitly illegal and bannable both at tournaments and battle.net games) As long as you're not using a a macro with your mouse button, and you haven't edited your MPQ, it is not considered cheating. And btw honestly it is only a perceived advantage. You still have the press the button, whether its with your mouse hand or keyboard hand. If u think pressing the larva inject hotkey takes significantly longer than pressing your mouse button then you have seriously slow keyboard hand. | ||
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noobcakes
United States526 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:22 Reason.SC2 wrote: As long as you're not using a a macro with your mouse button, and you haven't edited your MPQ, it is not considered cheating. And btw honestly it is only a perceived advantage. You still have the press the button, whether its with your mouse hand or keyboard hand. If u think pressing the larva inject hotkey takes significantly longer than pressing your mouse button then you have seriously slow keyboard hand. Essentially your saying it is perfectly fine. Then I move onto my next question, why don't any pros use these hotkeys on their mouse if it is 'perfectly legal' at GSL. Why would IdrA not bind his hotkeys to the mouse. Whether you think so or not, it is definitely easier to larva inject with the mouse giving u the backspace command and larva inject. It is a huge huge difference pressing 1 mouse button and pressing Shift + back space + mouse button on the opposite side of the keyboard u usually press. Anyone who has played in GSL or MLG want to chime in? | ||
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dark88
United States35 Posts
And because remapping to ~ or F1 is stronger than remapping to the mouse, then I don't see how it wouldn't be allowed. It's not like you will win just because its on your mouse. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:27 Dr.Frost wrote: Essentially your saying it is perfectly fine. Then I move onto my next question, why don't any pros use these hotkeys on their mouse if it is 'perfectly legal' at GSL. Why would IdrA not bind his hotkeys to the mouse. Whether you think so or not, it is definitely easier to larva inject with the mouse giving u the backspace command and larva inject. It is a huge huge difference pressing 1 mouse button and pressing Shift + back space + mouse button on the opposite side of the keyboard u usually press. Anyone who has played in GSL or MLG want to chime in? Pros don't remap hotkeys because it does not provide any real advantage. In fact its harder to hit buttons with multiple hands in the correct sequence when you're typing fast. For example, try binding the letter "E" to your mouse button, then typing out a sentence. Did it help you type faster? Didnt think so. Remapping hotkeys is useful for low apm players only. I also think you've confused remapping a hotkey with setting up a macro. Why on earth would you be pressing shift-backspace to larva inject int he first place. Have you heard of hotkeys? I think I remember why I told myself to stop posting on this forum. sigh | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
I myself use the two mouse side buttons for 0-9, and i don't think this gives me any particular advantage, in the end a player who has better hand techinque will have that for their advatange, not matter which hand they use. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:34 Reason.SC2 wrote: Pros don't remap hotkeys because it does not provide any real advantage. In fact its harder to hit buttons with multiple hands in the correct sequence when you're typing fast. For example, try binding the letter "E" to your mouse button, then typing out a sentence. Did it help you type faster? Didnt think so. Remapping hotkeys is useful for low apm players only. I also think you've confused remapping a hotkey with setting up a macro. Why on earth would you be pressing shift-backspace to larva inject int he first place. Have you heard of hotkeys? I think I remember why I told myself to stop posting on this forum. sigh He has backspace set on 1 of his mouse buttons, and V set on his other. So he can larva inject purely with his mouse. I wouldn't have it that way, my friend does. I don't use any of these bindings I was trying to find out if it was allowed. | ||
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:22 Reason.SC2 wrote: Being able to play the game at all is based on hardware. Most people don't have computers. Therefore, playing any computer game is unfair because it is based on hardware. (??????) + Show Spoiler + I think at these tournament you can use ur own mouse but you can't install anything a pc. So this should mean you can not set macro with your mouse. You don't have to install anything on a PC in order to have mouse buttons rebound to a specific letter or number. (Macros also but they are explicitly illegal and bannable both at tournaments and battle.net games) As long as you're not using a a macro with your mouse button, and you haven't edited your MPQ, it is not considered cheating. And btw honestly it is only a perceived advantage. You still have the press the button, whether its with your mouse hand or keyboard hand. If u think pressing the larva inject hotkey takes significantly longer than pressing your mouse button then you have seriously slow keyboard hand. I hope you aren't serious. Anything above the normal key layout + 2 mouse buttons can be considered extra, something that not all people who own the game have access to. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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Tsabo
Russian Federation266 Posts
But then I just allways tell myself that if I do it I will stop getting better and when I ever have to play a lan without my macros I will fail miserably. Same with mouse keys. If you ever plan on playing in a lan inviroment - dont do it. At least untill Blizzard allows to bind them ingame. | ||
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intergalactic
Canada428 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
 Must be some seriously cramped keyboards. | ||
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
What is not fair as some has pointed out is setting up macros on the mouse (i.e. simulating multiple key-presses with 1 button). Why doesn't the pros do it? If you look at their equipment, it's pretty basic because they probably found the optimal ones to use. I'm sure they feel that binding buttons to their mouse is beneficial, they would be doing it. I myself have a 5-button mouse. I use them all for WoW but don't feel that it's beneficial for me in SC2. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19201 Posts
Starcraft and starcraft 2 are so much easier with just the usag eof a keyboard. Its like the one guy said about typing a word but having "e" binded to the mouse. Its pointless. Tell ur friend he can take it to the tournament cause he will most def lose. shift+backspace = wtf. Just hotkey the hatchery and the queen. It takes less then two seconds to set those hotkeys and then ur golden for the rest of the game. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
PS if it is legal, first thing I would do is switch it to F8 | ||
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Chronoboosted
United States59 Posts
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:34 Reason.SC2 wrote: Pros don't remap hotkeys because it does not provide any real advantage. In fact its harder to hit buttons with multiple hands in the correct sequence when you're typing fast. For example, try binding the letter "E" to your mouse button, then typing out a sentence. Did it help you type faster? Didnt think so. That's absolutely nonsensical. Unless you're my grandmother, you do use both hands to hit buttons when typing. The reason it would be slower if you bound "E" to your mouse is because you have years of muscle memory to overcome. A more apt scenario would be "do you type faster with just your left hand, or with both hands if the right side of your keyboard is bound to mouse buttons. With enough training it's incontrovertibly faster to type with two hands. Binding backspace to the mouse thumb button would be a 100% improvement for larva injection. Hit bind for all queens, thumb button, V, left click, thumb button, V, left click. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:51 0mgVitaminE wrote: I hope you aren't serious. Anything above the normal key layout + 2 mouse buttons can be considered extra, something that not all people who own the game have access to. Right Clicking is an unfair advantage for PC users. | ||
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KilderZek
India19 Posts
And as a person who used the mouse for certain hotkeys, I can flat out tell you that if you want to be anywhere near as good as you really want then there is no way you should bind hotkeys to the mouse. If you are using the mouse for anything other than ordering your units, then that is another distraction that you don't want. Your keyboard hand should always do the hotkeying and your mouse hand should always do the moving. If they are not, then there is something wrong with your fundamentals. And believe me I used the side buttons on the mouse for a certain period before realizing how wrong I was and my macro actually improved because of that. Granted I do play Protoss but the same rule applies. | ||
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
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Anestetikas
Lithuania7 Posts
Other thing i don't like that its so easy to write macro to inject all your hatcheries at once... Im happy its not so wide spread, because nowadays gamers tend to buy keyboards and mice from logitech or razer with advanced macro software that it can make micro like 1 click. For example the running marine micro, that macro is like 13 lines long, and you just need to click once to a specified direction and your marines will run while shooting, just like BoxeR micro... I'm just happy i never seen it used online. | ||
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qazadex
Australia473 Posts
On November 18 2010 15:31 dvide wrote: This will become irrelevant once SC2 supports custom hotkeys anyway. But I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing for the game as a sport. It takes away from the skill of being dexterous in some ways, such as the above example of binding '0' and '9' to your mouse buttons. And backspace could also go on tilde or capslock or something, making the backspace trick really simple. But saying that, there is technically nothing stopping a hardware manufacturer from creating a custom keyboard either with everything you'd need within easy reach. Would that be legal in a tournament currently, even if rebinding isn't? I'm fairly sure SC2 should be a measure of skill, not how large your hands are. It's not a problem for me to hit the 9 and 0 keys, but for people that don't have abnormally large hands there is no reason why people should be punished for having smaller hands. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On November 18 2010 15:26 KilderZek wrote: I don't think remapping hotkeys will be allowed at tournaments. For eg, To remap keys to the side buttons on the Deathadder or the MX518, you need the S/W or Setpoint which you will never be able to install in any major tournament where they use their computers. And as a person who used the mouse for certain hotkeys, I can flat out tell you that if you want to be anywhere near as good as you really want then there is no way you should bind hotkeys to the mouse. If you are using the mouse for anything other than ordering your units, then that is another distraction that you don't want. Your keyboard hand should always do the hotkeying and your mouse hand should always do the moving. If they are not, then there is something wrong with your fundamentals. And believe me I used the side buttons on the mouse for a certain period before realizing how wrong I was and my macro actually improved because of that. Granted I do play Protoss but the same rule applies. That is a pretty bold statement. Why would using your extra thumbs hinder your overall speed? I'll agree that it takes quite a bit of time to get used to, but in the end if you could use multiple fingers for more actions how is this poor fundamentals? | ||
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KilderZek
India19 Posts
On November 18 2010 18:06 ZomgTossRush wrote: That is a pretty bold statement. Why would using your extra thumbs hinder your overall speed? I'll agree that it takes quite a bit of time to get used to, but in the end if you could use multiple fingers for more actions how is this poor fundamentals? It has more to do with mapping the brain to do specific functions than anything else. At the highest levels of play (which is most definitely not where I am at), your brain is programmed to press the hotekys using the left hand and move the mouse and order your units as quickly as you want using the right. I use the Claw grip and as such my dexterity to move the mouse involves my pinky and thumb. If I am using both of those to press the side buttons on the mouse instead of moving the mouse, then I am definitely not doing something properly. Which leads me to the basic point of my post - Unless you use macros on mouse keys which is definitely illegal in any tournament, there is nothing to gain in assigning a single keystroke to a thumb button in the mouse. I used to use 0 and 9 as Nexus and Gateways when I started out and assign them to the thumb buttons of the MX 518. I forced myself to relearn that because I thought it was bad to do something like that for fundamental RTS gameplay. Now I use 0 and 9 as Observers and can easily check them by hitting 0 and 9. I thought they were far to reach but I forced myself to be able to hit 0 and 9 and then come back to keys 1 - 7 and macro or whatever. That is fundamental RTS gameplay and I don't think you should need a mouse to pull it off properly. | ||
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jelle
Denmark88 Posts
I would love to change shift as being my groupings key.. maybe change it to the "tilde" key ( The key to the left of "1") is that possible? | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3868/69800717.jpg) ^ with my thumb I can multi-inject larva very easy to multiple harcheries, and use scroll wheel for select group with queens or hatcheries Yes, you can remapp ONE hotkey to another ONE hotkey. More, than ONE is bannable, because it's macros and not allowed | ||
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jelle
Denmark88 Posts
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 18 2010 20:43 Existor wrote: ^ with my thumb I can multi-inject larva very easy to multiple harcheries, and use scroll wheel for select group with queens or hatcheries Yes, you can remapp ONE hotkey to another ONE hotkey. More, than ONE is bannable, because it's macros and not allowed Yup, this. I posted this a page back also. And to the person thinking about setting up their G11 for macro's, this can get you banned by blizzard and is not legal at any LAN's or anything else. In fact many people were banned not too long ago for doing exactly this. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 18 2010 20:51 jelle wrote: Okay, but how do i do this remapping? It doesn't seem to be anything you can do via the in game control menu? Do I need somekind of 3rd party software or am I just doing something wrong? It's done in your mouse software/drivers. | ||
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Tethyrian
33 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:34 Reason.SC2 wrote: I think I remember why I told myself to stop posting on this forum. sigh Because his post made no sense to you? He meant hes holding shift Pressing v Holding shift Clicking on hatch Hitting backspace Clicking on next hatch Holding shift So he doesn't have to keep hitting the inject larvae key. He can hit it once and just hold shift down and click hatches... He didn't say he was making a macro, he said those were the keys you would normally use if you are going to inject larvae via the "backspace" method, which they are... If you know what the shift button does in-game... | ||
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hagon
United Kingdom556 Posts
As to setting it up (which a few people have asked) for Logitech the setup is in the profile management application that is integral to the mouse's driver, its running in the system tray all the time by default if you use a Logitech mouse/keyboard [edit - re post below: hours and hours? what the fuck are you babbling on about? the mouse is the one i've had for a couple of years, it cost about £20 (thats around $30 at the moment I think) and it took a couple of minutes to set the keys, and while its a personel preference thing, if you think it doesnt make a difference, your flat out wrong] | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:22 Reason.SC2 wrote: Being able to play the game at all is based on hardware. Most people don't have computers. Therefore, playing any computer game is unfair because it is based on hardware. (??????) what kind of reasoning is that..? i think he meant that not everyone who can play starcraft has the disposable income to spend on spiffy/high end gaming peripherals, i.e. mice/keyboards with macros. So, this would automatically open the door to having the ability to gain maybe a slight advantage, just because a player has more money to spend on something like a mouse with macro keys. for those who just want macros because it makes their gaming lives easier, it reminds me of how some players cry imbalance, but only do so because they don't want to work for a win. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
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Salvarias
Denmark231 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:13 XXGeneration wrote: I don't feel that this is fair because it is based on hardware. I also have a feeling that this isn't, but I can't completely confirm it. My mouse got onboard memory, and all macros and settings works without software install  so you can't count on that. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
But seriously, how many ppl are going to be playing in some serious tournament for real $$$? Who cares as long as you're not banned. | ||
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Trentelshark
Canada385 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:15 pedduck wrote: I think at these tournament you can use ur own mouse but you can't install anything a pc. So this should mean you can not set macro with your mouse. Unless your mouse has flash memory to store profiles/macros  . As far as I know, Blizzard has a means of detecting actions to the number of physical key presses from the hardware so macros in short aren't allowed if it spams a number of commands in succession. | ||
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duBstar
United States57 Posts
1 to 1 is A-OKAY Macros are not. Macro meaning anything that requires more than one button push. | ||
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maragin
United States59 Posts
Single key rebinds are acceptable in any e-sport. | ||
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Wolverick
Canada13 Posts
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jelle
Denmark88 Posts
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
Pros don't remap hotkeys because it does not provide any real advantage. In fact its harder to hit buttons with multiple hands in the correct sequence when you're typing fast. For example, try binding the letter "E" to your mouse button, then typing out a sentence. Did it help you type faster? Didnt think so. Hahahahaha, this must be a troll ye? | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
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Disconnect
United States84 Posts
Why change what has been working for you for years? For myself who didn't play Broodwar much I switched to grid as soon as I found out about it and I use the side buttons on my Razor DeathAdder for 9 and 0. Whatever setup you use should fit you. Doesn't matter what other people do. | ||
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Disconnect
United States84 Posts
I also think you've confused remapping a hotkey with setting up a macro. Why on earth would you be pressing shift-backspace to larva inject int he first place. Have you heard of hotkeys? I think I remember why I told myself to stop posting on this forum. sigh In the Day9 daily with Dario Day9 described the hit hotkey with all queens assigned and hitting shift backspace to quickly larvae inject at every hatch. So it's probably not as stupid as you seem to think. | ||
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
This makes me relieved, as I have CTRL and backspace set to two buttons on my mouse, so I can zip back to my base quick and set ctrl groups super easily. | ||
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Ation
Finland102 Posts
If you ask me, I think it should be time to "advance" in the gaming industry and learn to take advantage of the right hand more. There used to be times when I played Quake 2 and used numpad to smash team_say buttons to comunicate with the team while my left hand keeps doing "footwork", but now it all has become very different. Of course programming the keys to do something that computer does for your to gain serious unfair advantage, should be considered as cheating because it should still be human against human all the way. | ||
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