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On November 06 2010 23:04 Tonyoh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 02:54 Hammurabio wrote:And another would be no spawning pool before overlord Zerg starts with an Overlord. Maybe you don't know enough about the game to suggest balance changes? Maybe you didn't read the whole post saying they shouldnt have an overlord at the start, which is an advantage over the two others race. Terran golden age is over. Realize that, now it's a poor race which sucks hard, especially against zerg at any moment of the game.
What really changed with terran? Can you no longer cheese? (Which is dumb anyway) Do roaches kill you? (Mauraders are still better than roaches) Terran just need to start playing a more macro game than trying to end it within the 1st 10 minutes. A contain works against zerg, staying equal in bases works against zerg, drops still work. I don't see how TvZ was changed that much that the entire world cries and says terran sucks against zerg now.
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On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 23:21 JTWStephens wrote:
I've just gotta say, this is quite possibly the most hilarious thread on the entirety of TL.
I mean, wow. Don't get me wrong, plenty of Zerg have thrown out the QQ without neccesarily the most solid basis behind it [myself included], but Terrans are still dominating the tournament scene completely. There is rock-solid EVIDENCE of that in this very thread. Boxer's TvZ is obviously some of the worst in the entire pro scene atm. And lastly, Foxer has started to demonstrate the completely insane potential of the Marine with great micro behind it.
Are there people that really want Terran to return to their complete and utter insanity at launch? Actually, if you compared the overall Zerg player base (20-25%) and their ratio at the top diamond/at the GSL, you would realize that they are totally over-represented. If you looked at the average point of a Diamond Zerg player in BNet, you would realize that it is 200 points higher than Protoss/Terran. If you looked at the win ratio of Zerg at GSL, you would realize that it is the race with by far the highest one, along with being the only one with a +++50% win ratio in every single MU.
Since we're just making stuff up at this point, the moon is also made of cheese and I totally did not fuck your mother last night.
On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
So basically, you're just pretending to have rock-solid evidence of a lie.
Is your post an ironic attempt to show how amazing and awesome lying can be?
On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
You can keep on lying and pretend that a new Zerg bonjwa is born each time one of you wins the GSL if you like... But this rethoric wouldn't stand very long.
Foxer strat is a failure against early infestor, and he is going to be massacred in the final. Everybody knows that, including you.
Spoilers: Foxer is going to spread his Marines with his outstanding micro and minimize/completely invalidate fungal's AOE - the only truly useful Infestor ability.
At first I was taking your reply seriously, but it's pretty obvious you're just trolling or a bronze terran with the blinders still on.
User was temp banned for this post.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2010 23:37 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 23:04 Tonyoh wrote:On November 06 2010 02:54 Hammurabio wrote:And another would be no spawning pool before overlord Zerg starts with an Overlord. Maybe you don't know enough about the game to suggest balance changes? Maybe you didn't read the whole post saying they shouldnt have an overlord at the start, which is an advantage over the two others race. Terran golden age is over. Realize that, now it's a poor race which sucks hard, especially against zerg at any moment of the game. What really changed with terran? Can you no longer cheese? (Which is dumb anyway) Do roaches kill you? (Mauraders are still better than roaches) Terran just need to start playing a more macro game than trying to end it within the 1st 10 minutes. A contain works against zerg, staying equal in bases works against zerg, drops still work. I don't see how TvZ was changed that much that the entire world cries and says terran sucks against zerg now.
The ability to cheese is not dumb, and terran now can't make the same as pool6.
Roach + speedling actually are completly owning marauders.Now to finish, its easier for a zerg to expand than it is for the terran.
So you don't see how TvZ was changed that much ?
- reaper overnerf (pretty useless unit now)
- bunker build time increase. while making the bunker you will loose 150 mineral (100+ 50 the time the scv building doesnt mine.), which is a barrack.
- supply before barrack
- slow marines with 45 hp at the very early stage of the game. They should allow to build reactor and at the same time build marine. Also, the reactor cost insane amount of gaz.
- etc...
Now in 3vs3, I see almost no terran and A LOT of zerg players, because they understood that their speed + their expand ability make them too good.
Also, the speed from zerglings completely anilhate the micro you could make with marines, and you have it way before stimpack (which, by the way, damage your marines)
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On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
[Actually, if you compared the overall Zerg player base (20-25%) and their ratio at the top diamond/at the GSL, you would realize that they are totally over-represented.
If you looked at the average point of a Diamond Zerg player in BNet, you would realize that it is 200 points higher than Protoss/Terran.
If you looked at the win ratio of Zerg at GSL, you would realize that it is the race with by far the highest one, along with being the only one with a +++50% win ratio in every single MU.
Those are sad, sad, statistics. If those statistics aren't proof of Zerg OP, then I don't know what else proves Zerg OP.
Blizzard needs to address this balance issue by the next patch and rebalance Zerg.
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On November 07 2010 03:01 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
[Actually, if you compared the overall Zerg player base (20-25%) and their ratio at the top diamond/at the GSL, you would realize that they are totally over-represented.
If you looked at the average point of a Diamond Zerg player in BNet, you would realize that it is 200 points higher than Protoss/Terran.
If you looked at the win ratio of Zerg at GSL, you would realize that it is the race with by far the highest one, along with being the only one with a +++50% win ratio in every single MU. Those are sad, sad, statistics. If those statistics aren't proof of Zerg OP, then I don't know what else proves Zerg OP. Blizzard needs to address this balance issue by the next patch and rebalance Zerg.
lol what those statistics are sooo made up. And how does it make sense that top top zerg players out of the few that were there are high in the ladder = over-represented? I mean lol sorry you can't just 1A and win anymore with terran but that and your post are ridiculous. I don't know why I bother to try talking common sense to people but just wow....
If you guys think zerg is sooo easy to play switch to them and while you guys are getting pounded game after game maybe you won't be as ignorant as you are now.
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On November 07 2010 03:01 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
[Actually, if you compared the overall Zerg player base (20-25%) and their ratio at the top diamond/at the GSL, you would realize that they are totally over-represented.
If you looked at the average point of a Diamond Zerg player in BNet, you would realize that it is 200 points higher than Protoss/Terran.
If you looked at the win ratio of Zerg at GSL, you would realize that it is the race with by far the highest one, along with being the only one with a +++50% win ratio in every single MU. Those are sad, sad, statistics. If those statistics aren't proof of Zerg OP, then I don't know what else proves Zerg OP. Blizzard needs to address this balance issue by the next patch and rebalance Zerg.
So the fact that terran still has more tournament wins after patch means nothing? The fact that terran is still the most represented in the top 200 means nothing?
And mashing statistics from previous patches with statistics from this patch is extemely misleading. I seriously doubt zerg is only 20% of the playerbase after all the scrub FOTM switchers made their change.
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Wow some many crying Terran in this thread it makes me wanna harf.
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On November 07 2010 03:30 RoboSnail wrote:
Wow some many crying Terran in this thread it makes me wanna harf.
If only they were more constructive and refined like zerg players were a few weeks ago 
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What's insane about the stats you T pull off is how for months you denied how having 50% of the top 200, much bigger representation in all tournament joined with a huge margin in said tounies won were valid stats showing an imbalance. New terrans super stars were born there and there while other races pros were always people like idra or tester.
It took weeks for top Ts to aknowledge a 'small imbalance'' in the TvZ early game when every single build a T would want to do would be viable, 40 apm terrans beating 200 apm zergs with easy to place drops etc etc.
Z players had to play superior just to have a chance to get into mid-game.
It seems to me like the T whining now are the same who told Z to use ''mobility'' and ''nyduses''
Now we have 3/4 T in the semi-finals and Ts are speaking of Boxer as a glimmer of hope in this M-U ? I mean comon, leave it a rest for now, if Z from now on win 50% of the tournies like you did for an other couple weeks and we can bring back the subject to the table. Right now it making T looks ridiculous, theoricrafting about Futur issues making the M-U unplayable while right now things for terrans ARE working isnt a good idea IMO, right now Foxer is ripping apart zergs, and we see more and more marine plays working on the ladder. If he want to go random than fine, why not ? We might be able to see a proxy hatch in a pro match someday.
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On November 06 2010 20:57 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 19:11 Promises wrote:
Who would have thought a month ago that it would be Terran's jumping the UP train? ^^ In general in these discussions there is WAY to much talk of auto-loss and such. When Morrow's 5raxreaper first came out it was said to be completely unblockable, nothing you can do against it, always at a disadvantage etc. Even before the patch zergs figured it out and managed to deal with it. People are resourcefull, and Starcraft (2) is a complex game. Stop saying shit is autolose because people didnt figure it out in the few weeks after a patch, and especially when "people" is a very small sample. What's wrong with you ? Zerg players didn't figure out how to beat siege tanks, BC and reapers, Blizzard nerfed them into oblivion like they nerfed HSM during BETA. Bring back HSM and BC beta style, tanks with 60 core dmg and reapers as they were before the senseless nerfs, and you will see who is going to complain.
Stop trying to make this out to be some cold war. I didnt say Zergs figured out how to beat Tanks and BCs, they did figure out to beat reapers. A lot of things that were said to be nigh impossible to counter were figured out. Your second comment makes no sense whatsoever so I'll refrain from commenting on it more. Just stop bitching so much and wait a few weeks to see how it all plays out. If after considerable time still no1 figured out how to overcome their huge underpoweredness (which will finally result in some T's in high tournament spots (oh wait)) then perhaps some change is in order. Getting all misty-eyed the second you dont immediatly know how to counter something contributes nothing.
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Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 03:01 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 06 2010 23:36 TeWy wrote:
[Actually, if you compared the overall Zerg player base (20-25%) and their ratio at the top diamond/at the GSL, you would realize that they are totally over-represented.
If you looked at the average point of a Diamond Zerg player in BNet, you would realize that it is 200 points higher than Protoss/Terran.
If you looked at the win ratio of Zerg at GSL, you would realize that it is the race with by far the highest one, along with being the only one with a +++50% win ratio in every single MU. Those are sad, sad, statistics. If those statistics aren't proof of Zerg OP, then I don't know what else proves Zerg OP. Blizzard needs to address this balance issue by the next patch and rebalance Zerg.
I do not think GSL reflects everything, do you?
Checking top 200 stats and diamond level MU win percentages, everything seems pretty much normal according to blizzard.. And if u must consider GSL, take 3 terrans 1 zerg to semi finals.. So terran needs help hm?
Blizzard professionally patches the game considering several things, not as easy as we think..
And if one race must cry, they are the protoss' if GSL is the thing to be considered..
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The problem is the Roach. People are going to say that 1 range doesn't make a difference, but that range buff made Roaches 50% more effective because you no longer have useless Roaches if you over-Roach. It seems like every Roach can reach their target now, and they're getting much better concaves. Since they're so good now, Zerg can freely macro and shut down any early aggression without much deterrence. They then enter the midgame with unrivaled economy and can continue to spam their cost effective Roaches. Letting bad Zergs spam Roach all day is ruining ZvT and ZvP and ZvZ. Blizzard needs to stop this Marauder-esque balancing mentality. Overtly broken units is making the metagame stale. GtG needs more cost effective counters for every race.
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The game is balanced, just not in the right way. Basically every chance has an equal chance to win a game. Terran has to win in the 1st 15 minutes, zerg/protoss basically have to hold on till the 15 minute part. PvZ is at least pretty solid. They should rework certain units, but actual nerfing/buffing isn't really needed that much
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On November 07 2010 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
The game is balanced, just not in the right way. Basically every chance has an equal chance to win a game. Terran has to win in the 1st 15 minutes, zerg/protoss basically have to hold on till the 15 minute part. PvZ is at least pretty solid. They should rework certain units, but actual nerfing/buffing isn't really needed that much
That was true a while ago. Now that reapers has been nerfed, that the roach has been buffed and that Zergs (high lvl diamond, I don't care about the rest) have figured out how to scout and defeat all the timing pushes... I'm afraid this is not the case anymore.
Holding the games until the 15 minutes part is nothing hard for Zerg now.
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high dimaond random player here
i may be a little biast but honestly its nice to see terran whine for a change. lol
anyhow back on topic. if the emporer says there is a problem there is a problem. all u T complaining is a little over the top though.
i know this isnt suppose to be a balance thread but here is my 2 cents. havent had the chance to do much 1v1 lately been busy... but i honestly think the supply before rax and reaper nerf was a little much... just the roach range and reaper speed after factory would have been enough. this whole supply depot before rax is very strange.
edit:
i keep seeing ppl say that terran is too underpowered late game. i donno about u guys but ive always thought terran is WAY better late game then zerg. 200/200 army swaps crush zerg. im thinking what u guys meen to say is being stuck on MMM to long in order to survive punishes u too much for a late game tech swap into thors tanks vickings. getting their is the problem, u were too used to punishing zerg early game and getting such a big lead u could tech easier.
i guess what im trying to say is even if there is an unbalance maybe try getting those tier 2.5 out a little earlier and sit on ur 3rd base fortress till ur mech army can crush zerg. all this pushing with mmm syndrome 1a isnt getting u anywhere.
besides mech is funner! ps i dont care to hear terran complaints about getting their and that zerg has this and zerg has that.... thors tanks and vickings crush everything nuff said.
also everyone complaining about roachs? really? finally zerg have a decent staple unit that isnt melee. range 4 should have been done a long time ago. there are TONS of counters too roach. how would terran like having marauders with 3 range? give me a break... on top of that 2 supply roach fills supply super fast and makes them not very good late game. IF roachs are the problem then maybe they need their cost adjusted or less hp's. range at 3 is so limiting it retarded. makes them cannon fodder who cant break walls. im so disappointed with the roach in general. they have been changed by blizzard so many times since beta it makes me think they dont know what the units roll is. maybe 100/25 cost would be a little better.. ive always thought 70 for 2 supply was retarded. it makes the unit way to good early game and crap late game. its a staple unit isnt it?
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On November 07 2010 04:38 TeWy wrote:
That was true a while ago. Now that reapers has been nerfed, that the roach has been buffed and that Zergs (high lvl diamond, I don't care about the rest) have figured out how to scout and defeat all the timing pushes... I'm afraid this is not the case anymore.
Holding the games until the 15 minutes part is nothing hard for Zerg now.
^^^
QFT. Zerg players got what they wanted in the last patch with the reaper nerf and roach buff. It's quite easy for them to hold until mid game and after mid game, it's an auto-win for Zerg.
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i play random and i always think i have no self respect when i get zerg just like it was with terran before the nerf
muta baneling with roach or zerglings is fucked up vs terran
and in zvz or zvp you only need roaches now
they only cost 75 min and 25 gas für 145 hp 16 damage and 1 armor making them a ridiculously overpowered unit
the reaper is now so bad its just sad to watch them ingame
ps: zergs got so boring too watch lately i didn't see any nydus worms since the patch
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well the only problem was that terran got some little nerfs and zerg got some buffs. But at the same time because of the gsl winner or maybe due to those nerf buffs, zerg became way more confident, at the same time most terrans are having problems dealing with those little nerfs, that ruined their timings.
Before the patch you never saw a zerg only going for 2 or 4 lings, putting one before your base and then only pumping drones. It worked that way before the patch (played random and did it that way as zerg and had no difficulties against terrans)
And the terran just can't keep up with the worker production. If he moves out, the zerg sees the composition and conters either with lings or roaches. Also Mutas are a really strong map control thing.
So atm pro terrans are able to fight zergs, but the new confident zerg is way to much for the random terran. But who cares its still fun to try and win. Maybe the secret against mutas are armor upgrades, or the famouse bw build 2 turrets beside each other.
Well that is atleast what i noticed, that zergs play much more macro heavy and don't gg once they lost their first 200 supply. Imo hatch+queen is a bit to strong. Maybe blizzard never thought about that you can actually build another hatch in your base to get some over energy away from your queens. I mean as terran you don't have enough space for that many production facilties to keep up with a zerg that has 4 hatches supportet by queens.
Don't think its to much of an issue though, there are already a few micro heavy new terran strats against the fast expansion of the zerg. At the end i am happy to play my favourite race again which is also the hardest race to play *G*. Playing zerg with version 1 was alot of fun beating up all those terrans with simple a clicking or move commands. But zerg don't have siege tanks 
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On November 07 2010 04:38 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
The game is balanced, just not in the right way. Basically every chance has an equal chance to win a game. Terran has to win in the 1st 15 minutes, zerg/protoss basically have to hold on till the 15 minute part. PvZ is at least pretty solid. They should rework certain units, but actual nerfing/buffing isn't really needed that much That was true a while ago. Now that reapers has been nerfed, that the roach has been buffed and that Zergs (high lvl diamond, I don't care about the rest) have figured out how to scout and defeat all the timing pushes... I'm afraid this is not the case anymore. Holding the games until the 15 minutes part is nothing hard for Zerg now.
Ehh, not entirely. If they go specifically to hold off these pushes, then the terran will have a higher chance to win in late game, then normal. Fact is, terran lategame needs a slight buff, and stim/maybe marauders needs to be toned down, and 90% of this balance complaining will be gone. From both the zergs, and the terran. Oh and those protoss guys
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EPT
