Boxer: might go random if Terran gets nerfed again. - Page…

On November 07 2010 05:42 tomatriedes wrote:
There were 3 terrans in the GSL ro4 and still they whine. These people will not be happy until every player in the ro64 is a terran. Disgusting.

And it's silly to assume that just because Boxer is a great player he doesn't also have a bias.

On November 07 2010 06:02 Avid221 wrote:
I haven't read every post in this thread but just by skimming all I read is people looking at GSL and saying oh look this many percentage of players are this and they are winning by this much and that. What does that truly represent? If every player in the top 64 was terran, would it be safe to assume that terran was OP? Sometimes statistics aren't a way to justify an absolute such as A is better than B.

Has anyone ever considered that maybe the players that play certain races are just better than other players? Putting all race choice aside, I bet I can find that there is not a balance in the amount of skill across all races. Maybe there are better players playing terran. Of course this is just another statistic but I thought it should be put under consideration.

On November 07 2010 04:23 Cloak wrote:
They then enter the midgame with unrivaled economy and can continue to spam their cost effective Roaches. Letting bad Zergs spam Roach all day is ruining ZvT and ZvP and ZvZ. Blizzard needs to stop this Marauder-esque balancing mentality. Overtly broken units is making the metagame stale. GtG needs more cost effective counters for every race.

On November 07 2010 04:58 Rushingwolf wrote:
i play random and i always think i have no self respect when i get zerg just like it was with terran before the nerf

muta baneling with roach or zerglings is fucked up vs terran
and in zvz or zvp you only need roaches now
they only cost 75 min and 25 gas für 145 hp 16 damage and 1 armor making them a ridiculously overpowered unit

the reaper is now so bad its just sad to watch them ingame

ps: zergs got so boring too watch lately i didn't see any nydus worms since the patch

On November 07 2010 14:49 MythicalMage wrote:
He might as well switch now if his GSL preformance is any indication of balance. It doesn't make any sense why TL isn't flipping the hell out with "ZERG IMBA" threads like they did for Terran, but that's anther issue entirely.

On November 08 2010 08:40 lastmotion wrote:


Maybe because TvZ still remains largely in favor of T and a lot of biased users are over-exaggerating the effects of the last two patches? The most critical nerf from those 2 patches was the supply before rax requirement, and even that is nullified when T uses a more macro-orientated early playstyle by expanding earlier and still has a crapton more flexibility than Z early game

On November 08 2010 08:57 Dalavita wrote:


Zerg learning how to stop early pushes.
Roach range by +1 stopping helion harass and reapers.
Reaper getting triple-nerfed by build time increase, supply before rax and the factory before speed.
Bunker build time getting nerfed.

Tanks getting their damage nerfed, greatly changing their effectiveness against the muta ling baneling comp that smashes most terran mid-game.

COOL STORY BRO!

Zerg being a stronger race has been fact since they buffed ultras. Zerg has much better macro mechanics, and they also have the stronger endgame army now. The earlygame cutesy things terran did to them were just things that people stopped after playing against it enough, even before the nerfs, and that's not even considering the silliness of banelings.

I believe zerg and terran are flawed in a general way. Having the best macro mechanics on top of the strongest and most mobile endgame armies as a strength for zerg while terran who has the worst endgame macro mechanics has the weakest army.

But I'm just waiting for Blizz so balance the game. Can't expect it to be perfect, and it's in an enjoyable state as it is.

On November 08 2010 08:57 Dalavita wrote:
Zerg learning how to stop early pushes.
Roach range by +1 stopping helion harass and reapers.
Reaper getting triple-nerfed by build time increase, supply before rax and the factory before speed.
Bunker build time getting nerfed.

Tanks getting their damage nerfed, greatly changing their effectiveness against the muta ling baneling comp that smashes most terran mid-game.

COOL STORY BRO!

Zerg being a stronger race has been fact since they buffed ultras. Zerg has much better macro mechanics, and they also have the stronger endgame army now. The earlygame cutesy things terran did to them were just things that people stopped after playing against it enough, even before the nerfs, and that's not even considering the silliness of banelings.

I believe zerg and terran are flawed in a general way. Having the best macro mechanics on top of the strongest and most mobile endgame armies as a strength for zerg while terran who has the worst endgame macro mechanics has the weakest army.

But I'm just waiting for Blizz so balance the game. Can't expect it to be perfect, and it's in an enjoyable state as it is.

On November 08 2010 15:13 StarcraftMan wrote:


Yup, those are some good insights. Blizzard is staying silent on the issue until the GSL finals are played. If the finals turn out to be lop sided for Zerg, I expect Blizzard to go public and announce changes to fix TvsZ late game issues.

On November 08 2010 14:24 lastmotion wrote:


As I've said before, Roaches affected ZvP more than ZvT. Roach buff was a necessity because Z had no competent ground mid-game unit until Ultras, especially if T went mech or biomech.

Bunker build time might have been slightly decreased but they're still salvagable. It's the only building where u get ur full money back by canceling it.

Reaper nerf was slightly over-done but a lot of Z pros were complaining about how powerful 5 rax reapers were. The nerf was necessary. Not to mention Reapers were a T1 unit that only cost 50/50 that could jump across cliffs at very early in the game w/o a need for cliff upgrades

Tank damage nerf did not affect roaches, and you shouldn't be using Tanks verse light units like lings anyway. Ling died in the same number of shots before and after patch too. Blizzard was justified in nerfing Tanks as they said "it was doing too good" against ground units and I respect that. Unlike BW, Tanks do optimal splash damage cause units in sc2 hug each other and have smarter AI. You want old damage back AND smarter AI AND more splash? Let's just give tanks the ability to shoot air too while you're at it.

Z Best Macro Mechanics? Lol in what aspect?
Because in pure economic effiency, Terran wins with 2 base with Mules equals Z 3 saturated bases.
Z is supposed to have weaker units, but make up for that by providing greater number of units and fast reproduction capability. The fast reproduction capability shouldn't be available to Terrans, but reactor add-ons gives T a opportunity to have fast reproduction like Z.

The way I see it, T units > Z units. T macro > Z macro.

On November 08 2010 09:35 Subversion wrote:
BoxeR said himself in an interview afterwards that Terran is fine, he just likes to complain a lot.

On November 08 2010 14:24 lastmotion wrote:


As I've said before, Roaches affected ZvP more than ZvT. Roach buff was a necessity because Z had no competent ground mid-game unit until Ultras, especially if T went mech or biomech.

Bunker build time might have been slightly decreased but they're still salvagable. It's the only building where u get ur full money back by canceling it.

Reaper nerf was slightly over-done but a lot of Z pros were complaining about how powerful 5 rax reapers were. The nerf was necessary. Not to mention Reapers were a T1 unit that only cost 50/50 that could jump across cliffs at very early in the game w/o a need for cliff upgrades

Tank damage nerf did not affect roaches, and you shouldn't be using Tanks verse light units like lings anyway. Ling died in the same number of shots before and after patch too. Blizzard was justified in nerfing Tanks as they said "it was doing too good" against ground units and I respect that. Unlike BW, Tanks do optimal splash damage cause units in sc2 hug each other and have smarter AI. You want old damage back AND smarter AI AND more splash? Let's just give tanks the ability to shoot air too while you're at it.

Z Best Macro Mechanics? Lol in what aspect?
Because in pure economic effiency, Terran wins with 2 base with Mules equals Z 3 saturated bases.
Z is supposed to have weaker units, but make up for that by providing greater number of units and fast reproduction capability. The fast reproduction capability shouldn't be available to Terrans, but reactor add-ons gives T a opportunity to have fast reproduction like Z.

The way I see it, T units > Z units. T macro > Z macro.

On November 08 2010 19:21 Dalavita wrote:
The roach buff helps stop early terran aggression, especially helions, and an endgame 200/200 army exchange, where zerg can trade armies and mass produce roaches for all his stacked larva nd push-win because the terran can't get enough marauders to counter it.

The 5 rax reaper was being stopped at the highest level and even at plat-diamond levels before it got nerfed. It might have been to strong, but nerfing it to oblivion when people learned to deal with ti so no way to go.

The bunker is also the only defensive building that doesn't do crap by itself and needs units in it to work. Having it salvageable only makes a difference if you get the chance to do it. They still cost an opportunity cost of 100 minerals+scv build time which at that point could have been used for different things.

And about your tank damage thread. Do you even play SC2? Tanks were the key unit to kill the banelings. The fact that a quick +1 armor upgrade on the lings makes them take two shots rather than one, added with the lowered splash of tanks makes muta ling baneling that much harder to counteract. PS. Banelings aren't light, and they're the problem. And the tank is good vs armored units thing is a lie. Roaches and ultras both trash tanks. The only thing it actually works against are infestors to a degree.

Also, I don't know what ass you're pulling your math from. A mule adds 3-4 SCVs worth of minerals IF USED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GAME WITH 0 SCANS OR SUPPLIES USED FROM THAT ORBITAL. Basically, Every single scan or supply lowers the amount you get from it SCV-wise. Two base = 6-8 SCV advantage? How can a 3 base zerg who can make and replenish drones faster not keep up with a 2 base terran? Don't be silly. The main problem is also that terran struggles to take his third base due to lack of mobility or warp-in to defend. This is where the planetary fortress comes in, but people want to nerf that because boo hoo. /facepalm.

Zerg superior macro mechanics is their ease of expansions, coupled with their fast drone production, and how they can instantly tech-swap with a single building down, coupled with the amount of larva that's available to them at the later stages of the game. Terran and protoss to a lesser degree can't have 8 factories, 8 rax and 8 starports to also get this kind of producing power.

You can say what you want about what Z is SUPPOSED to be like. Ultras, mutas, roaches and banelings makes the maxed zerg army stronger and scarier than the maxed terran one, and once zerg reaches 3-4 bases, the amount of units they can mass produce and how much army trades benefit them, there's very little a terran player can do.