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On October 15 2010 08:35 SC2Jack wrote:
Personally, I can't wait to see the vast majority of terran players claiming to be "pros" last patch TANK in the ratings/leagues.
Yeah, because only 0.17% of terrans ever went 10 depot 12 rax. We all mass 80 speed reapers out of a 10 rax until we hard tech to 250mm cannons and fly our 20 Thors to the opposing base at speeds defying the laws of physics.
This patch has completely made this, our only viable playstyle, completely useless. I am switching to Zerg as we speak.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 15 2010 17:50 Paradice wrote:
No energy on corrupter? What units do the Protoss have to counter them now? Seeing as they hard counter both colossi and carrier, there must be *some* option?
Stalkers? Same way vikings are countered? Either that or Pheonix, also how Protoss counters vikings I guess.
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Dont stalker still take down corrupters pretty well? and they stack so tightly that a storm could help a lot too couldn't it?
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On October 15 2010 17:51 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 17:50 Paradice wrote:
No energy on corrupter? What units do the Protoss have to counter them now? Seeing as they hard counter both colossi and carrier, there must be *some* option? Stalkers? Same way vikings are countered? Either that or Pheonix, also how Protoss counters vikings I guess.
Despite the fact Colossi are "countered" by "most" air units *cough cough* and carrier are pretty bad at this point of the game, Corruptors get taken out by Stalkers, Sentrys, Storms, Phoenixes, charged Voidrays, Archons and Cannons.
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On October 15 2010 17:50 Paradice wrote:
No energy on corrupter? What units do the Protoss have to counter them now? Seeing as they hard counter both colossi and carrier, there must be *some* option?
Stalkers/Archons are never an option, this has been proven.
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On October 15 2010 17:51 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 17:50 Paradice wrote:
No energy on corrupter? What units do the Protoss have to counter them now? Seeing as they hard counter both colossi and carrier, there must be *some* option? Stalkers? Same way vikings are countered? Either that or Pheonix, also how Protoss counters vikings I guess.
I believe VRs still counter Corruptors (albeit softly now).
I approve of the removal of energy on Thors - it completely fits with the description of "feedback".
ie you can visualize a fully energized Battlecruiser, super capacitors brimming, just waiting to be combusted by the HT - same story with a banshee/medivac - however Thor's would be mechanically limited - the reloading of the cannons. (Addressed to all those saying it makes no sense... it makes sense to me ok! =)
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On October 15 2010 17:44 Sully907 wrote:
I'm not a really good player or anything, so maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the big deal about depot before rax? Don't most standard terran builds usually go depot first anyways? Isn't the only thing this prevents is super fast proxy barracks reapers? Which is what everyone is always complaining about anyways? Is there another popular build that involves getting a barracks first?
I think their goal was to decrease the amount of time reaper rush before depot bo into speed reaper with more rax as it goes; honestly I woulda still been ok with those proxy/cheesy things, but reapers aren't becoming useless because of the speed upgrade being enabled only once factory is up. The combination of both takes off too much of the opportunity windows.
If they didn't give the depot-for-rax condition, the reaper still would have got some decent pressure time. The delayed access to speed would have been enough of a breather. Heck I know some T's out there that really like reaper openings that actually make their factory before upgrading speed, just for the tech's sake and they upgrade it only if kept most of their reapers alive and managed to slow down a zerg enough to still make it worth it.
All I wanna say is that the doublish nerf on the reaper builds lost a drastic amount of pressure opportunities. Granted in my eyes it was potent for an amount of time that was too long for a unit that was accessible and upgradable during "tier1", but it didn't need so much nerf beating, without even getting into the roach range buff.
I was expecting some of the initial modifications they wanted to bring to the reaper play to be in the end something that wouldn't rape possible opening issues against opponent rushing you; I really persist on being ok with the speed delayed but totally not the depot-for-rax. I hoped instead as a zerg player some different modification concerning the zerg spells and a check on the hydras.
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I love the new Voidrays, they really felt a bit cheesy before the patch.
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On October 15 2010 17:51 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 08:35 SC2Jack wrote:
Personally, I can't wait to see the vast majority of terran players claiming to be "pros" last patch TANK in the ratings/leagues. Yeah, because only 0.17% of terrans ever went 10 depot 12 rax.
Yes, a lot of Terran players made depot first anyways. (Gretorp for example has been practising this lately I think.) But the contingencies zerg had to put in place to prepare for rax first was putting a major strain on our early game economy. Now you are going to see a lot more FE play from zerg, and with the game being balanced around zerg being ahead in the expo count this will tilt the game towards balance.
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On October 15 2010 17:25 sleepingdog wrote:
the first argument is ridiculous - it doesn't matter what they are if it makes sense gameplay-wise; medivacs are flying mechanical ships and not casters either;
Medivacs are casters.
This isn't World of Warcraft, "caster" doesn't mean "magic". It means a unit that is intended to use offensive or defensive spells regularly.
Pure Casters (no offensive ability apart from spells/energy):
High Templar, Infestor, Overseer, Raven.
Hybrid Casters (can deal damage or fill other roles, but heavily dependent on spells/energy)
Ghost, Sentry, Medivac, Mothership, Battlecruiser, Queen, Phoenix, Banshee, Warp Prism.
Non-casters with spells
Marine, Marauder, Thor, Viking, Siege Tank.
Zealot, Stalker, Carrier.
Any zerg unit with Burrow, Banelings, Overlords, Corruptors.
Non-casters
Reaper, Hellion.
Immortal, Colossus, Void Ray, Archon.
Mutalisk, Brood Lord.
and as I said, if feedback isn't supposed to counter anything, then why is it in the game? besides feedbacking ghost the only real use is vs medivacs now
Feedback is supposed to counter casters as listed above. It's idiotic for it to counter a Thor that hasn't even researched 250mm and has an energy bar for no reason whatsoever. Battlecruisers are borderline, but since Yamato is so strong it's inappropriate for it to be usable when the unit is made without the energy upgrade, hence it's not a cooldown ability.
(Banelings don't count as pure casters even though they have no "attack" per se, because they are guaranteed to die upon doing anything other than moving).
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On October 15 2010 17:31 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 17:30 uzas wrote:
Its not a patch, its a complete redesign. And i cannot believe how many ppl like this. Supply for rax? I just cannot believe. Removing mana and making cooldown abilities? Is this starcraft or what? Just my opinion. The reasoning behind it, is Corrupters and Thors got ridiculously killed so fast in TvP and ZvP because especially ZvP, people had a ton of Stalkers already, then having an ability which almost one shot a corrupter wasn't exactly fair. Thors were never built in TvP for the exact same reason, you just could never use them against Templar, feedback owned them as you could never use the energy.
PvT i agree, but ZvP is just stupid, why would you be using corruptors once templar tech hit the field?
In the numbers you need HT you probably cant even make colossus anymore.
Nerfing them because people complained their AFK corruptors died to feedback(why feedback when you can storm zergs army?) is just stupid
This is just a pointless one of those "SORRY GAIZ WE GOTTA NERF PROTOSS EVERY PATCH" patches imo.
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On October 15 2010 18:13 Ghad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 17:51 kojinshugi wrote:On October 15 2010 08:35 SC2Jack wrote:
Personally, I can't wait to see the vast majority of terran players claiming to be "pros" last patch TANK in the ratings/leagues. Yeah, because only 0.17% of terrans ever went 10 depot 12 rax. Yes, a lot of Terran players made depot first anyways. (Gretorp for example has been practising this lately I think.) But the contingencies zerg had to put in place to prepare for rax first was putting a major strain on our early game economy. Now you are going to see a lot more FE play from zerg, and with the game being balanced around zerg being ahead in the expo count this will tilt the game towards balance.
I personally think it's an inelegant solution, but I don't think it'll hurt the game too much.
Shoulda just deleted the Reaper and let Hellions jump cliffs 
EDIT: was joking about Hellions, but it'd be interesting if they could go down cliffs but not up.
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kojinshugi:
Yeah I agree with you it's an inelegant solution. In my head it seems like a temporary fix, because the problem currently is simply that terrans early game is so goddamn evolved and varied that the other races and especially Zerg simply have too few option to counter with.
I foresee that Heart of the Swarm will come with a lot of zerg buffs and new features that is going to enable Terran to be allowed to rax first again.
I fear that in HOTS release zerg will be just as OP and flavor of the month as Terran has been the last two months.
For now I'm glad i stuck with zerg during the dark ages and 1.1.2 is the reward. :D
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On October 15 2010 17:50 Paradice wrote:
No energy on corrupter? What units do the Protoss have to counter them now? Seeing as they hard counter both colossi and carrier, there must be *some* option?
Phoenix beat them 1on1 and getting corrupters is a large investment. Voidrays can also beat corrupters. When charged they melt.
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the only thing that vorked against terran's the void raid will be screws , but no marauders are just perfect ""
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On October 15 2010 18:26 Ghad wrote:
I fear that in HOTS release zerg will be just as OP and flavor of the month as Terran has been the last two months.
I'm sure HOTS will increase the popularity of zerg across all leagues, but I still maintain that as long as the core design of "fast expanding, reactive army" remains in place, the majority of players will stick with T or P, which are more "defense-oriented base, offense-oriented army" in nature.
And by majority I mean more than the 66.6% you'd expect from a mere three-way split.
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On October 15 2010 17:51 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 08:35 SC2Jack wrote:
Personally, I can't wait to see the vast majority of terran players claiming to be "pros" last patch TANK in the ratings/leagues. Yeah, because only 0.17% of terrans ever went 10 depot 12 rax. We all mass 80 speed reapers out of a 10 rax until we hard tech to 250mm cannons and fly our 20 Thors to the opposing base at speeds defying the laws of physics. This patch has completely made this, our only viable playstyle, completely useless. I am switching to Zerg as we speak.
LOL, you're made me spill coffee all over my keyboard! :D
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On October 15 2010 03:17 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 03:15 Devlin wrote:On October 15 2010 03:06 Ketara wrote:
Wow, this is a pretty big list of changes.
Void Rays will work way differently now.
Supply Depots take 1 more Baneling to bust.
Reapers totally slaughtered, but everybody knew about that already.
Like the Thor and Corrupter changes. 250mm cannons may get more use now. Wrong. Banelings do 80 (base) damage to buildings. You still need 5 (5x80=400) banelings to destroy a depot, same as before. About your last point: I'm pretty sure that 250mm cannons are not avoided because it costs energy, but rather because of a bad mechanic. The ability itself is not getting changed in any way. Only thing that changes is that you can't feedback Thors anymore, which is good though. You still need to research the upgrade. Supply Depots have 1 armor.
Also terran buildings burn down in the red so unless an scv is already right there ready for the repair it will still die reatively quickly.
Also who baneling busts without a force ready to go in so even if an scv does arrive the rest of the units that show up waste 1 attack and the wall is breached.
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On October 15 2010 18:43 terranghost wrote:
even if an scv does arrive the rest of the units that show up waste 1 attack
Think I found your problem.
If you scout a bling nest and your wall isn't bling proof, you'd best have more than a single SCV there, before the bust happens.
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On October 15 2010 17:39 ZergOwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 17:30 NeozooM wrote:
I mean, the Planetary Fortress only shot twice before it died against a Protoss yesterday when I couldn't repair it. Seriously, I don't know how it works against zerg because I never really build it against zerg, but Protoss can definately kill it fast.
look sen vs TLO...... you'll see if it works against zerg. vikings +PF = win you would need something extra than just that  belive i saaw a game in the gsl where a zerg leveled a PF in about 2.5 sec after the first attack landed on the PF a small strike force of ling/bling could be a way to snipe undefended PF's
And a way to use half a geysire worth of banelings .
Yes, that was exagerated.
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EPT
