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On October 14 2010 02:53 SpaceYeti wrote:
Medivacs are superior to overlords mainly because they heal. Having a flying healer to support your drops makes your drops WAY more effective.
Overlords, however, are more of a liability than a support as a drop unit, because losing them means you lose supply. I guarantee that if medivacs didn't heal and were the Terrans' souce of supply, you'd see far fewer drops from Terrans.
If you are talking about base drops as harrassment, yes. However, zerg drops should not be used the same as protoss and terran drops. This is what people don't understand. I've said it before, I'll say it again, watch Cool's games in the GSL and tell me drops are not effective.
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Basically, Zerg cannot consistently win games by avoiding the Terran or Protoss player's army. As zerg you MUST destroy the opponents army before you can safely strike his infrastructure with anything other than a small muta or ling force (a big muta force is inherently unsafe in many if not most situations). This is because zerg has fewer buildings than the other races and the risk of simply being eliminated is too great!
That's why baneling bombing is actually good, because it's based on getting the banelings in position to blow up the opponent's ARMY, not his infrastructure. Once the army has been bombed down to almost nothing, you're in a way, way better position even if you, too, have almost no army.
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Why there isn't poll they are fine as they are ? Or they are to cheap in long game run (when speed upgrade/ transport upgrade applies to 200 limit providing overlords) ?
In my opinion, they are as good as they are. Research time may be slightly changed thou.
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I dont think the problem lies in the high upgrade cost. I think the problem lies in the fundamental of the Zerg race: they are reactionary. You are supposed to react to the terran harrassing you and nullifying that harass untill you get your Zerg economy running and can steamroll them. Thus I dont think drops will have much of an effect. Terran have mules so a loss of scv's isnt that important and they can build scv's and units paralelly. Also, you usually dont have an army untill you think the terran is going to push and then instantly make an army with the larvea you have. This army is exactly as big as the push you are going to defend.
Maybe if the Zerg is ahead by alot then i can imagine drops, but i cant imagine drops being really effective if the terran is ahead, or the same as you,..
Ok so you have dropped a terran with a small army, and you killed a few scv's and you lost the army. So what, the army could ve been used to defend against the terran harrass that is much more efficient or you could defend against the incoming terran timing push. Terran will just mule up and pretend as nothing happend.
@ Under, baneling drop can be effective yeah, but who the hell goes for speed and drops before spire.. After you have the spire, you usually just make muta/baneling with the gas and cant really afford the upgrade..
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On October 14 2010 03:02 adius wrote:
Basically, Zerg cannot consistently win games by avoiding the Terran or Protoss player's army. As zerg you MUST destroy the opponents army before you can safely strike his infrastructure with anything other than a small muta or ling force (a big muta force is inherently unsafe in many if not most situations). This is because zerg has fewer buildings than the other races and the risk of simply being eliminated is too great!
That's why baneling bombing is actually good, because it's based on getting the banelings in position to blow up the opponent's ARMY, not his infrastructure. Once the army has been bombed down to almost nothing, you're in a way, way better position even if you, too, have almost no army. Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
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Well you should probably make units as well . Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches.
Which is why my quote was in regards to getting the upgrade early in the game. I had said later in the game it might be viable. My point was early game gas is already tight as well is money for units as a zerg so as it stands now with the cost/time it takes, getting drops for zerg anywhere but later in the game just doesn't seem viable. I've even tried to do some cute just get drop and no OL speed to do early bane drops and it can work ok but OL's are so damn slow it is easy to be spotted.
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I don't understand why people are suggesting that overlords are too expensive. You will always have more than enough overlords for dropping. You have to because you need them for supply. So essentially the scouting - dropping - creep-pooping is completely free because you're really paying 100 for 8 supply like all the other races do.
The only problem occurs when people start attacking the overlords and you have to worry about protecting them.
That being said, dropping is very risky in general because you don't want to engage in a basetrade or divide your forces too much. Zerg units just aren't that strong in small numbers for the most part. You will be wasting way more money on the drop than the damage you are going to deal with it (assuming you are harassing and not killing).
Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
I'm sure he considers workers part of the infrastructure. The fact is that Baneling drops can be used for both. Not one or the other.
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Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true.
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On October 14 2010 03:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true.
Overlord drops certainly aren't common.
Zerg definitely uses drops the least.
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On October 14 2010 03:11 slam wrote:
Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
Oh, I actually was thinking of workers as infrastructure. The idea being that since zerg wants to make the smallest number of units possible to defend until they have like 70-80 drones and at least three bases, you wouldn't want to move anything out of position to defend lest your force that's barely able to defend might be barely not able to defend and you die instead of winning decisively when your opponent responds to your drop by immediately pushing into your main (a tactic that Day9 would probably frown on from a "becoming a better gamer" standpoint, but works way too often nonetheless)
For small "annoying" drops in the worker line, my instinct would be to use speedlings over banelings, just because it feels like it'd be harder for the opponent to just micro his way out of danger until his army can get there. Dropping in one or two OLs worth of speedlings when your opponent is halfway to your base just sounds REALLY damn annoying from the opponent's perspective. I'm going to try it if I can remember to.
Above all else, don't let anything anyone tells you on a forum deter you from experimenting as much as you want with unusual or even crazy strategies. Get out there and drop a dude. If it doesn't work, go drop the next dude but do it better. Do that like 20 or 30 times and see how effective you can make it. The fundamentals are important, but not near as important as having fun and playing the way you enjoy playing.
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How do you execute a moving drop?
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On October 14 2010 03:37 kawazu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 03:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true. Overlord drops certainly aren't common. Zerg definitely uses drops the least.
Completely false. Zerg uses drops far more often than Protoss and it's researched nearly any game that goes past midgame.
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Baneling drops with a few speedlings mixed in is good against mineral lines, but apart from that I only see utility in pure doom drops as well as baneling drops against armies.
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Zerg drops are fine.
The way they're designed, they're meant to come a bit later in the game than Protoss or Terran drops. This is because as Zerg a) Your units benefit the most from being able to get passed the static defenses and walls of your opponent b) Every single overlord you have built becomes a transport, meaning that, conceivable, as soon as the research is finished, you can put every single army unit you have wherever you want.
You can rush drops, sure, but it costs a lot and puts you behind for a bit in exchange for the massive power you will soon have.
Consider overlord drops/nydus a Zerg tier 3 unit. 
In fact, I almost feel like they should redesign overlord drops in future expansions so that its clear you're upgrading your overlords, and that at the final tier, with drops, they become capable of some other function. I don't want to say healing, but some function that makes it clear you want to use them as part of your army.
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i just a day or two ago had a 40 minute macro game end by spamming roachs and dropping a army in 4 different locations. now that's difficult to keep up with and he just GGed when he realised half of his production facilities and his two remaining income bases were gone and i had only lost about 20 roaches.
zerg drops are AWESOME
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On October 14 2010 03:45 travito wrote:
How do you execute a moving drop?
Hold the "d" key and spam left-click on your overlords while they're moving over the enemy army.
One nice thing about zerg drops compared to the other races I forgot to mention is that there's no specific structure to scout. When you combine that with the aforementioned rareness of zerg drops, you can probably catch a lot of people by surprise. Terran's missile turret defenses and protoss's cannons will probably be mostly positioned to fight a threat hovering directly over his mineral lines, not a stream of ground-based speedy worker-death coming from a point on the edge of his main or nat. Just make sure you aren't dropping into a base that has like 1k total minerals left
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Actually, I never see Protoss drops because storm drops are not as effective as in BW and zealot bombing doesn't exist anymore. Let's not forget that the arbiter turned into a slow-ass-saucer...and you can only have one of them.
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Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus I'm suprised I've never seen maurder drop style base snipes before. I only get drop once every ten games but I still use it 3 times as much as nydus worms and I'm happy to say I've never encounter a player who is practiced against doom drops in starcraft 2:D
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On October 14 2010 04:33 SCdinner wrote:
Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus
Somehow I doubt you're taking into account the time it takes them to leave the overlords one at a time. And it still sounds like an amazing way for the zerg player to lose his whole fuckin base against a halfway decent opponent.
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having to spend so much gas on the upgrades is the real issue for me. I have so much stuff to afford mid game that I find it hard to find the right time to spend 300 on both the overlord upgrades.
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EPT
