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Poll: Why do you think Zerg drops are so rare?The overlord upgrades are too expensive for what they do. (487) 86% It doesn't fit your macro oriented play style. (38) 7% You don't think it would be that effective. (23) 4% The speed upgrade isn't as effective as it should be. (12) 2% Overlords can't carry enough units. (4) 1% 564 total votes Your vote: Why do you think Zerg drops are so rare? (Vote): The overlord upgrades are too expensive for what they do.
(Vote): The speed upgrade isn't as effective as it should be.
(Vote): Overlords can't carry enough units.
(Vote): You don't think it would be that effective.
(Vote): It doesn't fit your macro oriented play style.
I've been hearing people complain a ton about how cheap terran drops are, but I rarely see drops from the other two races. I have seen pro Zerg players use drops once or twice, but the average zerg player seems to avoid them like the plague.
While I'm not very good at zerg, I have tried drops a couple times and they seem to work well because your opponent expects you to attack them directly with a ground army or try harassing with mutas.
I'm not saying it should become as common as Terran drops, but it certainly has a place in the Zerg arsenal.
Just wondering what other players thought.
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Where is the vote that people do - Do overlord drops Aka Fruit dealer who won the GSL
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I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
I think Zerg drop can be really deadly in zvt (as proved, dropping baneling, roach, ultra), but not really strong in zvp because of the stalker (extra damage to armored unit)
But on the other hand, Zerg players need to learn how to moving drop, I lolz whenever they send the overlords to my army and the overlords move, stand there and begin to unload. By the time they unload, my army has already gone.
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Add option that its hard to identify a good time to drop
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Most zergs just dont have the skill to maintain their macro and do drops at the same time, especially outside of korea. We all seen how AMAZING it can be when Cool does it, but so far hes the only one we've seen do it. I think thats pretty telling, if zergs would try new strats/use drops more instead of crying all day, zerg will dominate everything like Cool already does.
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Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
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On October 13 2010 15:44 canikizu wrote:
I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it.
Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time.
But they cost
1) larve and;
2) 8 Supply if they die.
On October 13 2010 15:47 Skyze wrote:
if zergs would try new strats/use drops more instead of crying all day, zerg will dominate everything like Cool already does.
Why aren't you as good as Tester then? You don't cry all day long like us stupid zerg! So you must be amazing!
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Drops have mostly been used to get close to tanks without taking horrendous splash damage.
Otherwise they have been out of desperation or while being contained.
They are situational for Zerg, and in a regular game you could easily get by without basing a strategy off drops.
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I actually get the Overlord drop research a lot, but there's not a whole lot you can actually do with it to effectively harass compared to what you could do by just using Mutalisks. Also you can't really expect to just end a game with a big drop as opposed to just playing it safe and teching up till you have your big guns. Sure, it can be done, but it's a lot harder and less reliable.
I end up using Drops just to expand to islands, or to drop Banelings on tank lines.
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Unlike Terran, Zerg units can't stand 1v1 fightes when being outnumbered, as they lack in micro-possibilities like the Marines and Marauders do, as they are to slow/have low range.
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Should also add a poll "Do you think Zergs will win more if Zergs incorporated drops into their gameplay?"
I think it has a lot to do with how the races are played. Terrans need to harass in order to keep Zerg from becoming a monster, so drops are essential. Most of the time Zerg only really needs to not to get harassed (lol good luck) so good defence has higher priority over being aggressive. What needs to be discussed is whether offense could be used as defence. It's blantly obvious being aggressive makes the opponent passive. By doing drops, you can make the opponent be passive which let's Zergs macro. Another issue is whether containing with mutas is much more effective than doing drops as Zerg. As the poll shows, people feel upgrades are too expensive.
People's thoughts: Why not use that money to get mutas and make T/P more passive and defensive?
I think these are the factors people needs to consider, however I think after watching GSL it is possible drops could be more cost effective than Mutas just because it is rarely used so T/P cannot react in time. So... Only time will tell if Zerg drops (not doom drops, mean just casual drops) will be next step in Zerg Metagame.
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While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it.
Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time.
But they cost
1) larve and;
2) 8 Supply if they die.
Why aren't you as good as Tester then? You don't cry all day long like us stupid zerg! So you must be amazing!
another way of looking at it is if you make a overlord for the purpose of dropping they only cost 100 minerals and no supply
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On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
haven't read many more inaccurate posts on tl before.
300/300 is the cost of 3 drop ships, not to mention the supply they take up, consuming the production abilities of your starport(s), etc. the cost for a terran to get 3 dropships can give zerg 20+. overlords are essentially free to use as a drop unit because you already have them made for other reasons. zerg drops are hands down the cheapest in the game.
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I've been "forcing" myself to get overlord drop as soon as 200/200 seems affordable since a while, just to open my mind to dropping. The long research time seems somewhat okay, although combined with the high costs you don't get overlord drop until the aggression from the enemy drops and you feel save.
From using it, I feel like the problem actually is that you need to drop a rather large part of your army for it to be similiar effective as protoss drop-warpins or terran drops. Which again means you have to risk way more and split up your army, which is dangerous for zerg.
The main way drop is useful, is for dumping minerals in mid-late zergling-drops (which are mainly effective as suprise with upgraded zerglings) and baneling-bombing (which is actually pretty good and can even demolish a protoss ball, but again only because players arent used to it).
But in general as zerg you don't feel like you got any units to "spare" for dropping, since you already try to stay at a minimum for maximizing your drone production.
Of course there is the doom-drop to end a game, but to me it seems it mainly works when you are in a rather save position anyway.
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On October 13 2010 15:53 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:44 canikizu wrote:
I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it. Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time. But they cost 1) larve and; 2) 8 Supply if they die.
Every Z units cost larva, as much as I feel for Z players, using the larva card is getting old. I think it's the Z core that larva management is the most important. If it's so much important, why not dedicate another hatch (300 more minerals I know) for overlord and other small stuff only. I'm practicing Z and I found out that it's easier for me to do that. I can create overlords, scout zerglings, quick drone spawning for small stuffs.
Besides, medivac also cost 2 supply, and they are useless when they have no mana (except drop, I guess lolz), but overlords cost no supply and can generate creeps. 3 overlords clumping up can generate creeps so fast that it's almost imba.
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Honestly, the overlord drop / speed upgrades are fine as it is. The only change I would make is change the speed upgrade back to 50/50.
The reason I don't really use OL drop tech because I'm under the assumption that it's not ideal to base your entire game off of doing a drop. So in order to use it as a "tactic" you honestly have to be pretty good. The amount of multi-tasking and APM you need to drop effectively as well as maintain your macro and do all of the little things you need to do like creep tumors etc. is quite high imo. It's very difficult to do it well.
Of course, the only way to get better and more comfortable doing drops is to do them. I'd definitely try it on maps like Lost Temple because you can cover yourself with cliff crap. Some of the stuff oGsZenio(?) did on LT was awesome and definitely something to check out.
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In BW, Zerg drops were arguably the least popular among the 3 races. Terran's drop mechanics are overall pretty similar and possibly even better now with the medivac acting as both a dropship and a medic. Protoss had very strong storm drop, DT drops, and reaver harass. All of these were for the most part almost always cost efficient.
Zerg, while not being worthless, had not so great drops in comparison because it's difficult to snipe buildings with any zerg unit besides maybe cracklings and hydras. But pathing for melee units always made this slightly difficult and hydras were fairly fragile to several units that Protoss and Terran units may have when there's no room to micro. Not to mention it was fairly difficult to execute a drop unless there was a large quantity drop (a la doom drops). Small drops only work early with lurker drops or MAYBE drops with a defiler.
Now drops are much harder to be cost effective. Not only do zerglings absolutely suck at taking out structures now (does Terran really need a +2 armor to structure upgrade? this seems a bit excess), but hydras are much more expensive and even more fragile as everything has more range and ton more hp now to defer zerg drops much more efficiently. No Lurkers or Dark Swarm doesn't make it any easier as well. You really need a huge drop that goes undetected for the most part to be effective, but with AA so much stronger in this game for Terran (and sensor towers help), it's hard to justify drops when you can just use mutaling mobility as a more reliable approach.
With that being said, I can imagine sneaky baneling drops on the mineral line being very good while fighting on the front.
EDIT: I want to also say that trying to justify dropping with overlords are just as cost effective as medivacs is pure BS. Terrans build Medivacs 90% of the time because they are excellent healers. You generally don't build MMM with the thought process of "I'm building these things only because I want to drop on their base". You build them because they heal your army, and if the situation arises where you can drop, you conveniently have the dropships available to do so. And there's no reason not to. If you're going MM, you will never be like "well, I don't really plan on dropping, I guess I won't make medivacs if this reaches the mid to late game phase".
Zerg doesn't quite have this luxury, especially when Zerg is so gas needy. It's hard to justify a 300/300 investment on just having the opportunity to drop in the early to mid game phase especially when it's so easy to turtle off one base in SC2. What are you gonna do? Drop some zerglings in the opponents base? Not only does this not sound threatening at all, but you also just wasted 300/300 on an upgrade that may just not be useful at all anymore. That's 3 mutas that could be harassing now which sounds a lot more intimidating.
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Overlord upgrades are pretty expensive, and Zerg is already gas intensive. When they OV speed was cheaper, Zergs used to always get it at Lair. If OV upgrades were cheaper, I think we'd definitely see a lot more creative drop play. The other issue with OV drop is that you need both speed and drop. Sure its possible to just get drop, but its not going to be effective without speed.
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Drops only become economically viable late, game. This probably isn't entirely true, but you'd have to base a build around getting drop research as 300 min and 300 gas plus the overlord cost/supply is very very expensive early to mid game.
This is especially true because early to mid game is when zerg are at the most vulnerable and you have to be using pretty much all your resources to either get units or get a competative economy. Zerg don't have the luxury of deciding when to attack, we have to react and be ready for what the opponent throws at us at all times.
Though I think early drop play could be very strong, but you'd have to base a build around it/get the timing right. And if you don't do that much damage it doesn't seem worth it.
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I'm fine with the cost but the research time is absolutely ridiculous, it's close to a marine's build time longer than a spire, which is a pretty long frikkin time. if you invest that much minerals and gas you need to see some sort of payoff much sooner than 130 in-game seconds...
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I agree that Zerg players have been under utilizing Overlord drops.
It might be partly because of the five reasons the OP provided in the poll, but I also think it's also because of the introduction of the Nydus Worm in ST2. Unlike Overlords, it really doesn't matter if the Worm dies, they can be throw away units. They are decently cheep, even compared to Overlord upgrade costs. But most importantly a single Nydus Worm can hold (and transport) any number of the Zerg player's army quickly.
It's fairly safe to say that if you could pull off a successful Doom Drop on your opponent with Overlords, then you could probably sneak a Nydus somewhere in his base just as successfully. And unlike with an Overlord drop, if your attack fails you will not be supply blocked back to 12 food.
IMO the Nydus transport is much safer, but less and less successful the higher the quality of the opponent is. That's why I'm guessing we will continue to only see such tactics used commonly in high level play.
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Well zergs have the nydus worm. That gotta count for something.
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On October 13 2010 16:18 MadVillain wrote:
Zerg don't have the luxury of deciding when to attack, we have to react and be ready for what the opponent throws at us at all times.
..........Not really. Zerg is actually commanding in bannelings burst.
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I am not using drops as Zerg because im plainly not able to maintain my macro when microing a drop. Not to speak of boxeresque mutli -drops while besieging the main with tanks and pulling off macro with his 3rd (or 4th?) hand...
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On October 13 2010 16:16 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
In BW, Zerg drops were arguably the least popular among the 3 races. Terran's drop mechanics are overall pretty similar and possibly even better now with the medivac acting as both a dropship and a medic. Protoss had very strong storm drop, DT drops, and reaver harass. All of these were for the most part almost always cost efficient.
Zerg, while not being worthless, had not so great drops in comparison because it's difficult to snipe buildings with any zerg unit besides maybe cracklings and hydras. But pathing for melee units always made this slightly difficult and hydras were fairly fragile to several units that Protoss and Terran units may have when there's no room to micro. Not to mention it was fairly difficult to execute a drop unless there was a large quantity drop (a la doom drops). Small drops only work early with lurker drops or MAYBE drops with a defiler.
Now drops are much harder to be cost effective. Not only do zerglings absolutely suck at taking out structures now (does Terran really need a +2 armor to structure upgrade? this seems a bit excess), but hydras are much more expensive and even more fragile as everything has more range and ton more hp now to defer zerg drops much more efficiently. No Lurkers or Dark Swarm doesn't make it any easier as well. You really need a huge drop that goes undetected for the most part to be effective, but with AA so much stronger in this game for Terran (and sensor towers help), it's hard to justify drops when you can just use mutaling mobility as a more reliable approach.
With that being said, I can imagine sneaky baneling drops on the mineral line being very good while fighting on the front.
I agree. Without units that can take out more units than they cost, like the lurker, or a unit that can make units more cost effective, like the defiler, i feel like drops in sc2 are more of a way to clear supply for higher tier units, or are an effective tool when you have a strong economic advantage against your opponent in the late game, since zerg units are not as cost efficient as protoss or terran, so doom drops when both players have a near equal economy will not be as effective, unless you can kill alot of stuff while being able to save your units.
Although banelings can take out way more than they cost, the problem is they are gone once they do their damage, so you have to rebuild them.
On another note, i do think drops are underused, and i think we will be seeing the pro zergs use them more the further they improve.
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Where is the "current maps don't provide the proper economic tension to get speed/drops and be safe" option. Only a few do :p
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Also, I think Zerg is the most prone to the "omg... that drop just went horribly wrong... I just lost the game because of that" drop syndrome. It's always a wild card when it comes to dropping with a Zerg, you never know what you're gonna get because you can't just hit and run with Zerg drops, it doesn't work like that. They can be decent, or they can just flat out lose you the game. It's just so hard to tell.
Flash vs. Jaedong in the past MSL had a game where this happened. It seemed like JD was a pure genius at faking the lurker push at the front and suddenly loading lurkeling into his overlords and dropping on a seemingly undefended Terran main. Somehow, this drop just turned out to be a lot less effective than it initially appeared, and I would even argue that it turned out disastrous for JD.
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Can most posters here please take into account that overlord drop without speed upgrade is retarded?
Overlord drop is viable late-mid game to harass, or mid-game when the enemy is turtling. It cannot be used early because if you go fast lair and instantly can spare 300gas you will be badly hurt if somebody decides to attack you during the overlord drop tech.
Making overlord drop viable around the time that you go to 3th base and have to macro like shit as Zerg to keep up in the game. And, even if you are capable to spare the extra apm to do drops, it is mostly easier and more effective to harass with other units. Or gain some map control.
So unless you have +150 apm- I would say 200 apm- overlord drop is not viable.
If you are a god like Cool, yeah you can do fancy stuff. 99.8% of the others can't.
Can all haters please keep their mouth shut? Pathetic to read all these yabba-yabba-yabba posts. All these in-a-perfect-world-it-is-all-sure-win theories make me sick.
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Overlord upgrades last 60 and 130 seconds, and cost total of 300/300 resources. Effectively enough for two extra hatcheries instead, and the result is more or less the same: You are at a great disadvantage for 130 seconds, until your investments start to kick in. Not only this, but you'll be at slight disadvantage even later, since overlords do not really do anything to increase your combat potential, unlike medivacs do.
As Zerg, you really do not want to continue being at disadvantage for any longer, after you already were at it the whole earlygame. And getting drops early equates to suicide, since you are already at disadvantage.
They do have their time and place, but sadly that time and place is lategame when both players have 3+ bases, or just slightly before. And most games are over by then.
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It is not the cost or research time but of the fact its a huge gamble. It is too ez to defend.
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Its easy to say that the upgrade is expensive. But tbh i think the problem is slow overlords and maybe the time it takes for the research.
You need to send twice as many overlords so that you have some decoys, and then its difficult to get your units transported back out again because the overlords are so damn slow, what, they got like 1.8 speed? Vikings are 2.75, medivacs are 2.75... It's just too clumsy and all-in.
The popular terran multidrops in different locations is strong because the medivac is fast (and heals o_o). The overlords are spotted 10 seconds before they're even in position.
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I've only really done it in 2v2's because I am bad enough at Zerg that I will get stomped in my 1v1 devision, but it seems pretty effective so far.
I'm really just talking about using drops to harass, not all in attacks against entrenched bases.
If you drop hydras, it's more like a thor drop than anything. The intent is to kill workers, not kill the other players army.
A single overlord worth of hydras kills workers a lot faster than a thor drop if you focus fire.
As far as the argument that losing overlords is way too costly because of the supply loss, you can build more than what you need for supply. You don't need to always skirt the edge of supply blocking yourself. If you do that, you basically get decent transports for 100 minerals a piece.
I think i saw someone say something about nydus worms. Against decent players nydus worms are only really useful for transporting things between your own bases. If you do put one in someone's base, they know exactly where your units are going to be in 20 seconds and although it is easier to control, it actually launches units much more slowly. Meaning a good portion of your units will die without being able to really do anything.
It's like building a supply depot or pylon to scout/warp units in. You don't want to rely on the supply given in case it gets destroyed, but it's really useful sometimes.
I might try something similar with banelings later.
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There are many factors why overlord drops are not used, I will make a list:
a) Unsuitable units: The only high range high dps unit is the Hydralisk. It is also not used against terrans, and against Protoss the timing window where Hydras can be very effective before storm/colossus arrive is small. Also 8 Hydras << 8 stimmed Marines + 4 stimmed Marauders + 2 Medivacs.
b) Long and expensive research: Investing 100/100 for better scouting is already tight early midgame, 200/200 more for drop is impossible. High research time means that you cannot spontaneously decide to drop after a decisive battle.
c) Slow overlord speed: Before the speed upgrade drop research is useless. After the upgrade an overlord has a speed of about 1.87, a medivac has a speed of 2.75, a huge difference.
That means:
-retreating is more difficult
-If the drop is seen, the opponent has more reaction time
-The time your main army is weaker is longer
d) Zerg has no defenders advantage, so an army is necessary to stay safe. If you load half your army in overlords for a drop and the opponent attacks, you lose the game. If your drop fails because the opponents army is at home and you drop, you lose that half of your army. Then the opponent attacks and you lose the game.
e)Economy: Early game a zergs economy is way behind, and the only stable gameplan is to gain a better and better economy to be even in midgame and ahead in lategame. Spending 300/300+units in midgame on drops does not help this plan, better get upgrades and stay safe.
In my opinion there are essentially three reasons for droping as a zerg:
-you are way ahead economically and just need a way to end the game
-you need to defend against cliffdrops (better to downvote the map...)
-Baneling-Bombing, which is actually viable
So what is the message to take home? Try out baneling bombing instead of mutalisk harass.
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Zerg drops are good, but you can't compare them to marauder drops. Marauder or hellion drops will do a garrenteed TONS of damage. Overlord drops costs a lot while they hardly do humungous amounts of damage, aside from maybe ultralisk drops or banelingdrops on MM.
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baneling drop is strong but its to hard to get it early enough
at the time when you would drop those overlord upgrades are way too expensive. you just buy them later when its not as useful to do baneling drops
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I don't think zerg drops are very common because the zerg lack a unit that is really strong when dropped. There's nothing like a hellion or a templar that can really wreck workers quickly in the zerg army, and zerg doesn't really have a good option for sniping buildings quickly either.
As a result, zerg drops are more about having metric tons of stuff in the drop than being cute and harassy. More required commitment to drops means less drops happen.
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On October 13 2010 16:07 Effen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game. haven't read many more inaccurate posts on tl before. 300/300 is the cost of 3 drop ships, not to mention the supply they take up, consuming the production abilities of your starport(s), etc. the cost for a terran to get 3 dropships can give zerg 20+. overlords are essentially free to use as a drop unit because you already have them made for other reasons. zerg drops are hands down the cheapest in the game.
Only if you are in the position to freely lose overlords, meaning that a drop can easily supply block you and so you will need to have extra overlords in any case, which costs money. This liability does not exist with medivacs. 300 gas is a lot to spend early in the game.
BTW, nothing in my post was inaccurate. The parts you disagree with are opinion at best.
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On October 13 2010 17:39 Sirion wrote:
There are many factors why overlord drops are not used, I will make a list:
a) Unsuitable units: The only high range high dps unit is the Hydralisk. It is also not used against terrans, and against Protoss the timing window where Hydras can be very effective before storm/colossus arrive is small. Also 8 Hydras << 8 stimmed Marines + 4 stimmed Marauders + 2 Medivacs.
b) Long and expensive research: Investing 100/100 for better scouting is already tight early midgame, 200/200 more for drop is impossible. High research time means that you cannot spontaneously decide to drop after a decisive battle.
c) Slow overlord speed: Before the speed upgrade drop research is useless. After the upgrade an overlord has a speed of about 1.87, a medivac has a speed of 2.75, a huge difference.
That means:
-retreating is more difficult
-If the drop is seen, the opponent has more reaction time
-The time your main army is weaker is longer
d) Zerg has no defenders advantage, so an army is necessary to stay safe. If you load half your army in overlords for a drop and the opponent attacks, you lose the game. If your drop fails because the opponents army is at home and you drop, you lose that half of your army. Then the opponent attacks and you lose the game.
e)Economy: Early game a zergs economy is way behind, and the only stable gameplan is to gain a better and better economy to be even in midgame and ahead in lategame. Spending 300/300+units in midgame on drops does not help this plan, better get upgrades and stay safe.
In my opinion there are essentially three reasons for droping as a zerg:
-you are way ahead economically and just need a way to end the game
-you need to defend against cliffdrops (better to downvote the map...)
-Baneling-Bombing, which is actually viable
So what is the message to take home? Try out baneling bombing instead of mutalisk harass.
Well said. The main reason is d) imo.
Zerg can't just drop one OL worth of units cause it won't make any damage (unless banelings bombing). He needs to drop A LOT of units, that means that your main army will be much smaller and opponent can just attack you and win right there most of the time. Maps really unfavours zerg drops cause it's pretty much impossible to retreat if opponent counter attacks you while you dropping.
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To sum up the actual facts in the comparison of medivacs to overlords.
Overlords;
*100 minerals per overlord
*200hp
*0.469 default speed. 1.875 with speed upgrade (100/100 and 60 seconds)
*Requires upgrade to carry units (200/200 and 130 seconds)
*(As a technicality, overlord drops require a lair (150/100) but since a lair is required for doing anything it can't be attributed as a cost of OL drops)
-Requires a larva
Less tangible factors:
Overlords have other uses, and can fulfill those after being used to drop. They are also already available without need of production, nullifying the cost and production time but risking a loss of supply if they die. On the other hand, if extra overlords are made instead, surviving overlords can be seen as a supply investment, or can be used for scouting and creep spread. It may be worth noting that the units zerg have available to drop may not be as strong. The zerg race may also have a lack of a defender's advantage and an economy not well suited for an investment in OL drops in the early game.
Medivac;
*100/100 per medivac
*150hp (+1 armor)
*2.75 speed, with roughly twice the acceleration of an overlord
*Requires a starport (150/100) and a factory (150/100) -- (This is significant, but it needs to be said that any reasonable build that employs medivacs will make some use of these buildings after construction, so the investment is there, but can not be attributed solely to the medivac)
*Takes 42 seconds of starport build time - (This is also significant in some way since quickly massing units may require additional structures. Think of it as being analagous to larva cost for zerg)
-Cost 2 supply.
+Can heal
Less tangible factors:
Rather than adding to infrastructure and logistics like the overlord, a medivac directly increases the strength of a bio army, in addition to their shared attribute of enabling drops. Creating a medivac can be seen as a direct addition to your army strength, and is a fundamentally aggressive move, while adding extra overlords, while not at all useless, does not increase your army strength. During small scale drops (harassment) with bio units a medivac also boosts the strength of the dropped group.
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Departing from objectivity and entering the realm of opinion I'd probably say that the overarching reason that zerg players generally do not use drops like terran do is the 1.87 speed of the overlords. A medivac is very fast, and lends itself extremely well to scooting into a sensitive area, dropping units, and then scooting out at the sight of danger. To put this in perspective - a marine has a speed of 2.25, meaning that they can actually outrun the overlords. It's extremely risky to take one overlord into your opponent's base to drop like you'd see a terran do, since if at any point you need to fly in reach of land, a small group of any anti air units will be able to outrun you and intercept you. This is why you almost exclusively see zerg drops used in the form of a 200 supply army being dropped with a dozen overlords. They're just too slow for doing anything gimmicky.
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I doubt it's the cost that really gets people.
It just takes a long time to research. By the time you're thinking "hey, I could use some drops now", you research them and then you don't even need them anymore because you're dead or something.
At least that's what I'm suspecting.
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Id say the cost of the upgrades is fine if you look at what you get. problem is, for zerg having no gas makes those upgrades almost impossible to get until much later game without hurting your army/upgrades/tech
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Zerg drops as far as "getting behind your opponent" to do some damage are made redundant by the nydus when it comes out. You need too many overlords to transport all those units, so the nydus does it better. Using OLs to drop onto seiged tanks is a great, however.
The one thing I see the least is Protoss drops, actually. Too bad the warp prism is made of glass...
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Germany2762 Posts
i think an important reason for the lack of drops in sc2 is the availabilty of the nydus worm. you can transfer so much more units with less micro that in most cases it isn't neccessary to use overlord drops.
baneling drops are pretty sexy though... i have no idea why these are hardly used. i can only speculate that the cost of the upgrades combined with the timing isn't as good as in broodwar.
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On October 13 2010 16:11 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:53 Seam wrote:On October 13 2010 15:44 canikizu wrote:
I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it. Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time. But they cost 1) larve and; 2) 8 Supply if they die. Every Z units cost larva, as much as I feel for Z players, using the larva card is getting old. I think it's the Z core that larva management is the most important. If it's so much important, why not dedicate another hatch (300 more minerals I know) for overlord and other small stuff only. I'm practicing Z and I found out that it's easier for me to do that. I can create overlords, scout zerglings, quick drone spawning for small stuffs. Besides, medivac also cost 2 supply, and they are useless when they have no mana (except drop, I guess lolz), but overlords cost no supply and can generate creeps. 3 overlords clumping up can generate creeps so fast that it's almost imba.
Queens dont.
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Find me a window when I can freely spend my money and gas on O-Lord upgrades and I will drop stuff everywhere! :D The hard part is finding the window to safely do this and not get stomped by a mid game push or have to spend your resources/larva defending a harass.....
If the game makes it to late game, this works because you have a bit more freedom, but like others have said, early/mid game I have a bit more to worry about than upgrading my overlords....
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On October 13 2010 16:07 Effen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game. haven't read many more inaccurate posts on tl before. 300/300 is the cost of 3 drop ships, not to mention the supply they take up, consuming the production abilities of your starport(s), etc. the cost for a terran to get 3 dropships can give zerg 20+. overlords are essentially free to use as a drop unit because you already have them made for other reasons. zerg drops are hands down the cheapest in the game.
Would you risk your Supply Depots to do a drop?
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For me it's the 200/200 research cost. I'd still use it tho if i'm in a good macro position. Also I consider Nydus a form of dropping.
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I think that most Zerg players get Mutas out, so Terran players naturally are ready for air units coming into their base. If a player didn't give Terran a reason to build turrets, then drops would be more effective.
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where is the underrated option ? Baneling drops are SO DAM STRONG, sac 1 overlord with like 2-3 banelings and you will probably will get like 10 scv atleast, later on it might get you like 20....also roach drops totally devastate the tank play, drop on tanks plus first 2 overlord with banelings if marines go for the kill 
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I don't like OL drops for a few reasons:
1)Expensive upgrades. Any upgrade that is 200/200 is already a major investment for any race, but its virtually useless without the 100/100 speed upgrade.
2)Just doesn't do damage. What would you fear more, a medievac with 4 stim'd Marauders running at top speed in your main, or 4 lumbering Hydra? If the enemy has air you can bring 8 Marines! Also on top speed with the time! What can Zerg bring 8 of? Zerglings? 8 zerglings are near equal harass to any stimmed infantry? 4 Roaches can do equal harass to 4 Hellions, nay, Blue-Flame hellions?
3)Zerg need positioning and numbers in almost any engagement. Drops are temporary in most cases and not a doom-drop.
4)Nydus! Now Nydus can move enough units, is cheaper when it fails than a failed OL drop.
Zerg don't do drops because there are so many good reasons not to. I've had my fair share of interesting baneling drops on a mineral line, but the OL Drop is just inferior to other available strats ready at the same time.
As an aside, every race has a powerful 50/50 Upgrade, Concussive Shells/Warpgate. I'd reduce cost for the OL drop tech, maybe 150/150 on the carrying upgrade side, or maybe a 50/50 burrow. If Zerg are always gas starved why can't they have an optional 50/50 upgrade.
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Try to find a window to use 300 GAS is a big deal for zerg mid game.
A 3 Muta's difference can be huge at this time.
Zerg have scouting problem, and don't use drops enough, i think they should lower Ovie speed at 50/50. I feel that theses days, zerg tend to skip it, and it was a no brainer in the Beta.
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I think the reason for the scarcity of Z drops is that zerg have a very good mid game harassment unit, which is easier to handle than drops. The muta.
A mixed muta+ground force is arguably not weaker than a straight ground force - as Z ground is cost-ineffective, vulnerable to splash damage and gets superhard countered by storms, tanks, colossi.
Also, the 300/300 investment for drops is hard for zerg in the mid-game, as you are really struggling to keep your army as strong as the opponent's.
Compare the mid game returns - 7 muta flying into enemy worker line, that is workers killed + enemy builds turrets everywhere + enemy afraid to leave base / splits army, for under 1000/1000 inc spire). Early muta harassment is fairly low risk, as aside from bunching them up and taking a thor volley it's really easy to avoid losses.
By comparison, bling drop: 300/300 research + 400/200 for 8 blings. The blings should be upgraded - a good opponent will flee his workers from slow blings, so we're getting into similar cost as 7 muta.
The drop can be intercepted much more easily than muta, so the risk is greater. The payoff? If you catch your opponent completely pants down, you own his mineral line. Except 7 mutas can perform equally well and will potentially survive. 8 bling drop seems much riskier.
I've tried drops and it's always like "yes, dropped 12 roaches! Yes! roaches killed 3 workers! Oh no, workers escaping, stimmed marauders incoming"
Maybe at Fruitseller skill level, when you can control everything lightning fast and get the maximum utility out of a ground army while managing drops in separate places - you get more value for your buck than with muta harassment. But at my skill level, a drop seems all innish - I risk a costly force, have a questionable chance of actually killing something valuable and a couple of vikings means I've lost all my guys.
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You need the speed upgrade, then the drop upgrade. I think that takes too much time to get both :\
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On October 13 2010 16:07 Effen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game. haven't read many more inaccurate posts on tl before. 300/300 is the cost of 3 drop ships, not to mention the supply they take up, consuming the production abilities of your starport(s), etc. the cost for a terran to get 3 dropships can give zerg 20+. overlords are essentially free to use as a drop unit because you already have them made for other reasons. zerg drops are hands down the cheapest in the game.
And medivacs aren't already there for other purposes? What Terran player doesn't make medivacs for their healing? They always have a couple, and they are immediately allowed to drop.
Your argument that Zerg already has Overlords is null, because Terran already has Medivacs.
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Has already been mentioned before, but the fact that you need 2 upgrades for it to be even viable is just plain stupid. Reduce upgrade time and decrease cost!
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On October 13 2010 23:04 MrMotionPicture wrote:
You need the speed upgrade, then the drop upgrade. I think that takes too much time to get both :\
You can have both on the same time, since you will be already on two bases.
It just take two much time anyway.
Nydus is more aggressive since it comes earlier and terran would not have enough army, but it's less effective.
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Ovie drop I think should be used differently than the drops of other races... ie Baneling drops. Otherwise the Nydus Worm just does it cheaper and better.
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I think drops are useful for backstabs and sniping key buildings. Against toss, I like dropping a dozen or so roaches and taking out forges, robo bays, templar archives, etc. Terrans I usually drop a production cycle of lings to kill workers, or carpet bomb with banelings if I have them available.
The drop tech is really, REALLY expensive; I think drops would be a lot more accessible if they took ovie speed back down to 50/50. Scouting is such a huge deal in ZvT and ZvP that it's basically required as it is.
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If overlords were as fast as medivacs I think drop would be better. As it stands you louse way to much when trying to fly over anything that shoots up or their army can come back. Anytime you drop those units are dead. If you try to retreat the overlord and units are dead. This may be the biggest problem.
Now that I'm already posting the second biggest problem with drops in my opinion is that the units take to long to unload for zerg in nydus and to a lesser extent ov drops. Using a nydus to do damage should mean your sending through things like roaches, hydras, queens, ultralisks, banelings. These are the big units that can get things done in relatively small numbers. Lings should be the go to drop unit but are to clumsy to transport to work in most cases.
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8748 Posts
Terran drops are strong because of the units that go in the medivacs, not because of the unit transporting them. If there were reavers and lurkers, p/z could make do with warp prisms and overlord upgrades
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On October 13 2010 17:39 Sirion wrote:
There are many factors why overlord drops are not used, I will make a list:
a) Unsuitable units: The only high range high dps unit is the Hydralisk. It is also not used against terrans, and against Protoss the timing window where Hydras can be very effective before storm/colossus arrive is small. Also 8 Hydras << 8 stimmed Marines + 4 stimmed Marauders + 2 Medivacs.
b) Long and expensive research: Investing 100/100 for better scouting is already tight early midgame, 200/200 more for drop is impossible. High research time means that you cannot spontaneously decide to drop after a decisive battle.
c) Slow overlord speed: Before the speed upgrade drop research is useless. After the upgrade an overlord has a speed of about 1.87, a medivac has a speed of 2.75, a huge difference.
That means:
-retreating is more difficult
-If the drop is seen, the opponent has more reaction time
-The time your main army is weaker is longer
d) Zerg has no defenders advantage, so an army is necessary to stay safe. If you load half your army in overlords for a drop and the opponent attacks, you lose the game. If your drop fails because the opponents army is at home and you drop, you lose that half of your army. Then the opponent attacks and you lose the game.
e)Economy: Early game a zergs economy is way behind, and the only stable gameplan is to gain a better and better economy to be even in midgame and ahead in lategame. Spending 300/300+units in midgame on drops does not help this plan, better get upgrades and stay safe.
In my opinion there are essentially three reasons for droping as a zerg:
-you are way ahead economically and just need a way to end the game
-you need to defend against cliffdrops (better to downvote the map...)
-Baneling-Bombing, which is actually viable
So what is the message to take home? Try out baneling bombing instead of mutalisk harass.
/thread
Imo the key is the combination of slow => more time for opponent to bring in army and lower DPS units => Zerg needs longer to do damage. Then there is the combination of weak defensive army => enemy can crush the front and slow => whatever is dropping usually dies instead of escaping.
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The betters zergs I see and play with are the ones who use drops. Try to fit the drops into your economy and I think you will find yourself some interesting new strategy's. I have seen malice tear people up by doing drops.
Ret was also doing drops the other day on someones stream.
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Just to show how nice baneling drops can be, not just at the mineral line:
Bombing-Run 1 - didn't do as much dmg as I wished, especially because I missmicroed somewhat (distracted him enough to kill of his expansions worker-line though) and the enemy was kinda lucky with his units being spread. Nontheless, I dealt quite some damage and it was amusing to see him positioning his units right under my overlords, since he exspected a "normal" drop.
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/banelingbomb1nh66.gif)
The second bombing run shortly after hit bulls-eye though, especially since the collossi were still damaged:
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/banelingbomb28c7v.gif)
Nontheless I was pretty much ahead in that game after defending a 4 gate and macroing afterwards. But as support of your main army or deadly harrassment its great. Losing overlords isnt really the issue if you prepare (200-300 minerals arent much in mid- to lategame), I tend to send empty ones ahead as tanks for the actualy bombers. Its more getting the drop upgrades, banelings and getting into position for attacking.
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I think as many people have said, part of the problem why drops are less common for zerg (and protoss) is the dps difference between Z drops and T drops. With T, one medivac can carry 8 marines which have high dps and can stim - the fact that they're weak doesn't matter since drops happen away from the main force. In a set amount of time the marines can do more damage than, say, 4 roaches, or 4 hydras.
Another reason why I think Z do less drops is that they have an alternative - nydus worms. Sure, these don't really get enough use either, but the fact that they're equal in gas cost, and can get many more units to a particular spot makes them a great alternative. Not to mention the fact that your opponent is much more likely to divert their whole army to stop a nydus worm (that has completed) than to a drop.
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To add to Sirion's excellent points:
Once you drop, your melee units are now fighting in-between buildings against units with 6 range. Oftentimes, fighting in-base is just as bad or worse than attacking the front as the same situation arises: your units are stopped by buildings and theirs aren't.
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Don't forget that zerg can completely forgo drops and use nydus as well. It works especally good on deaf opponents...
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If anyone does not think it is worth it to research drops vs a mainly tank/marine terran, then they are crazy. It's the absolute best way to fight this build. Terran relies on their tanks to kill the banelings before they reach the marines so what better way than to baneling drop the marines and send in roaches to deal with the tanks. I've had a lot of success simply loading all my banelings and a few overlords worth of roachs and then 1A and move drop across a terran army.
It's funny how half the people in this thread see the word drop and automatically think that you HAVE to use drops for dropping in the base like an annoying (good) terran. Zerg drops are far more effective in an actual engagement than dropping in a base. Don't think of drops as a gimmicky upgrade. If you are going roach/bling/infestor its almost essential for engagements.
The point of drops for zerg is to avoid the long range units of terran/protoss and drop your units in close to the enemy so they can begin dealing damage immediately. This effectively eliminates the advantage of range that your opponent had.
edit: watch FruitDealer. He showcases how zerg drop should be used.
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1200 Zerg player here and I would love to know how 300/300 is too expensive to turn your 10+ OL at mid game into 10 dropships...
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I think most Zerg's don't drop because they lack the multitasking and apm to make it effective.
Your poll kinda assumes that players are consciously refraining to use drop.
Moreover, I posit that all "Why do do so few players use x unit, strat, or tactic" can be answered in one of the following three ways:
1) Too many are ignorant of such a move's possibility.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Mutalisk control before July and other pioneers was simply hidden. People used to ask "Why don't more Zerg's use Mutalisks?".
2) The action simply lacks benefit or is mere exploitation.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Terrance Nubowitz asks, "Why don't more Protoss go 6 gate off-one base? 4 gate seems to work pretty well after-all and you have plenty of minerals for probes and stuff too. "
3* This point is a corollary to 1) and it is that the player lacks the multitasking or handspeed to make pull such a move off.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Ideal Zerg drops require at least four to five upgrades including: lair, two O'relord upgrades, plus whatever unit you are dropping and it's upgrades (M'boost, Glial, Hydralisk Range, +1 attack/carapace etc).
Consider Fruit D's exemplary RTS play. No exploitation or trickery. He consistently began with map control in mind to the pressure opponent so that he could freely develop an economy to fuel the burgeoning swarm. You may remember how everytime his Mutalisks were out harassing the Terran his production bar was stacked with the upgrades mentioned above. His plan involved using B'ling drops, yes, but that was not the goal.
Being able to effectively spread creep, inject larvae, never hear "build more overlords", backstab, flank, kite, etc are drastically more important skills to hone than Drops or Nydus. Only after you can effectively micro and macro a suitable force should you begin to focus on tactics like dropping.
+ Show Spoiler [BW nostalgia] +
I remember when I used to try to do drops in BW and it would be pretty effective because I focus all my attention on it but then upon returning home to my base I would see three larvae begging to be morphed but first having to make overlords and having 1532min/1023gas...right before the counter attack came.
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I'm not an experienced Zerg player in SC2 by any means, so pardon me if this comment seems nub. What about Nydus worms? I rarely ever see them used in game, and aren't they just a better form of "drop", for zerg?
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Been Dropin Roaches on on armies since Ro4 GSL. Inspiration was fruit-dealer. Works well vs Terran Mech, and Protoss when they have mostly Zealot Colossus. It really helps negate splash Dmg, and helps surround your opponent preventing a lot of micro options for them.
Would like Drop upgrade to have decreased time. Wish Overlords were faster. However thats just cause im a biased Zerg player. Take any advantage i could get.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Nidus drops are awesome. It's bad, tha we can't cancel it
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more psychological, they don twant to lose food
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I'd really love to mix drops into my play more but aside from late game like people had mentioned when you might have the extra money I just don't see where I can squeeze 300/300 in and not lose to some early push. I always feel like when I play I'm hanging on by a thread against p/t until I can get my economy really rolling as is.
It is a shame because in BW I use to love hydra drops.
Once again I just feel like this is another option presented cheaper and more effective to the other races but not afforded for zerg. Would love to see a cheaper/faster OL speed and transport upgrade but don't see that happening.
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On October 14 2010 00:19 Ekko wrote:
Don't forget that zerg can completely forgo drops and use nydus as well. It works especally good on deaf opponents...
Mostly the sub category of deaf opponents who don't look at their minimap, scout or set up depots/pylons around their base. Lot's of those at a high level I'm sure.
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On October 14 2010 02:28 FLuE wrote:
I'd really love to mix drops into my play more but aside from late game like people had mentioned when you might have the extra money I just don't see where I can squeeze 300/300 in and not lose to some early push. I always feel like when I play I'm hanging on by a thread against p/t until I can get my economy really rolling as is.
It is a shame because in BW I use to love hydra drops.
Once again I just feel like this is another option presented cheaper and more effective to the other races but not afforded for zerg. Would love to see a cheaper/faster OL speed and transport upgrade but don't see that happening.
That's funny because zerg drops are pretty much the cheapest. 300/300 for essentially an instant 10-15 dropships is pretty good.
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What good are 10-15 drop ships if you have nothing to put in them?
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On October 14 2010 00:54 nonparfumee wrote:
I'm not an experienced Zerg player in SC2 by any means, so pardon me if this comment seems nub. What about Nydus worms? I rarely ever see them used in game, and aren't they just a better form of "drop", for zerg?
Nydus worms are basically a slower form of a drop with the only real benefit over drop being instant transport. Since Nydus worms unload one at a time they are not very effective against good opponents usually and can only really be used either in the really late game as players get 4+ bases or as a very risky, heavy cost gamble in the early-mid game against something like a toss forge FE build.
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On October 14 2010 02:44 FLuE wrote:
What good are 10-15 drop ships if you have nothing to put in them?
Well you should probably make units as well :p. Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches.
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Medivacs are superior to overlords mainly because they heal. Having a flying healer to support your drops makes your drops WAY more effective.
Overlords, however, are more of a liability than a support as a drop unit, because losing them means you lose supply. I guarantee that if medivacs didn't heal and were the Terrans' souce of supply, you'd see far fewer drops from Terrans.
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On October 14 2010 02:53 SpaceYeti wrote:
Medivacs are superior to overlords mainly because they heal. Having a flying healer to support your drops makes your drops WAY more effective.
Overlords, however, are more of a liability than a support as a drop unit, because losing them means you lose supply. I guarantee that if medivacs didn't heal and were the Terrans' souce of supply, you'd see far fewer drops from Terrans.
If you are talking about base drops as harrassment, yes. However, zerg drops should not be used the same as protoss and terran drops. This is what people don't understand. I've said it before, I'll say it again, watch Cool's games in the GSL and tell me drops are not effective.
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Basically, Zerg cannot consistently win games by avoiding the Terran or Protoss player's army. As zerg you MUST destroy the opponents army before you can safely strike his infrastructure with anything other than a small muta or ling force (a big muta force is inherently unsafe in many if not most situations). This is because zerg has fewer buildings than the other races and the risk of simply being eliminated is too great!
That's why baneling bombing is actually good, because it's based on getting the banelings in position to blow up the opponent's ARMY, not his infrastructure. Once the army has been bombed down to almost nothing, you're in a way, way better position even if you, too, have almost no army.
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Why there isn't poll they are fine as they are ? Or they are to cheap in long game run (when speed upgrade/ transport upgrade applies to 200 limit providing overlords) ?
In my opinion, they are as good as they are. Research time may be slightly changed thou.
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I dont think the problem lies in the high upgrade cost. I think the problem lies in the fundamental of the Zerg race: they are reactionary. You are supposed to react to the terran harrassing you and nullifying that harass untill you get your Zerg economy running and can steamroll them. Thus I dont think drops will have much of an effect. Terran have mules so a loss of scv's isnt that important and they can build scv's and units paralelly. Also, you usually dont have an army untill you think the terran is going to push and then instantly make an army with the larvea you have. This army is exactly as big as the push you are going to defend.
Maybe if the Zerg is ahead by alot then i can imagine drops, but i cant imagine drops being really effective if the terran is ahead, or the same as you,..
Ok so you have dropped a terran with a small army, and you killed a few scv's and you lost the army. So what, the army could ve been used to defend against the terran harrass that is much more efficient or you could defend against the incoming terran timing push. Terran will just mule up and pretend as nothing happend.
@ Under, baneling drop can be effective yeah, but who the hell goes for speed and drops before spire.. After you have the spire, you usually just make muta/baneling with the gas and cant really afford the upgrade..
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On October 14 2010 03:02 adius wrote:
Basically, Zerg cannot consistently win games by avoiding the Terran or Protoss player's army. As zerg you MUST destroy the opponents army before you can safely strike his infrastructure with anything other than a small muta or ling force (a big muta force is inherently unsafe in many if not most situations). This is because zerg has fewer buildings than the other races and the risk of simply being eliminated is too great!
That's why baneling bombing is actually good, because it's based on getting the banelings in position to blow up the opponent's ARMY, not his infrastructure. Once the army has been bombed down to almost nothing, you're in a way, way better position even if you, too, have almost no army. Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
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Well you should probably make units as well . Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches.
Which is why my quote was in regards to getting the upgrade early in the game. I had said later in the game it might be viable. My point was early game gas is already tight as well is money for units as a zerg so as it stands now with the cost/time it takes, getting drops for zerg anywhere but later in the game just doesn't seem viable. I've even tried to do some cute just get drop and no OL speed to do early bane drops and it can work ok but OL's are so damn slow it is easy to be spotted.
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I don't understand why people are suggesting that overlords are too expensive. You will always have more than enough overlords for dropping. You have to because you need them for supply. So essentially the scouting - dropping - creep-pooping is completely free because you're really paying 100 for 8 supply like all the other races do.
The only problem occurs when people start attacking the overlords and you have to worry about protecting them.
That being said, dropping is very risky in general because you don't want to engage in a basetrade or divide your forces too much. Zerg units just aren't that strong in small numbers for the most part. You will be wasting way more money on the drop than the damage you are going to deal with it (assuming you are harassing and not killing).
Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
I'm sure he considers workers part of the infrastructure. The fact is that Baneling drops can be used for both. Not one or the other.
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Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true.
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On October 14 2010 03:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true.
Overlord drops certainly aren't common.
Zerg definitely uses drops the least.
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On October 14 2010 03:11 slam wrote:
Why only target infrastructure? Ever hear of worker harass? Baneling drop on worker line is SO goddamn good.
Oh, I actually was thinking of workers as infrastructure. The idea being that since zerg wants to make the smallest number of units possible to defend until they have like 70-80 drones and at least three bases, you wouldn't want to move anything out of position to defend lest your force that's barely able to defend might be barely not able to defend and you die instead of winning decisively when your opponent responds to your drop by immediately pushing into your main (a tactic that Day9 would probably frown on from a "becoming a better gamer" standpoint, but works way too often nonetheless)
For small "annoying" drops in the worker line, my instinct would be to use speedlings over banelings, just because it feels like it'd be harder for the opponent to just micro his way out of danger until his army can get there. Dropping in one or two OLs worth of speedlings when your opponent is halfway to your base just sounds REALLY damn annoying from the opponent's perspective. I'm going to try it if I can remember to.
Above all else, don't let anything anyone tells you on a forum deter you from experimenting as much as you want with unusual or even crazy strategies. Get out there and drop a dude. If it doesn't work, go drop the next dude but do it better. Do that like 20 or 30 times and see how effective you can make it. The fundamentals are important, but not near as important as having fun and playing the way you enjoy playing.
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How do you execute a moving drop?
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On October 14 2010 03:37 kawazu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 03:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe there isn't an option "Overlord drops aren't rare." You're forcing people to accept that conclusion when it's not necessarily even true. Overlord drops certainly aren't common. Zerg definitely uses drops the least.
Completely false. Zerg uses drops far more often than Protoss and it's researched nearly any game that goes past midgame.
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Baneling drops with a few speedlings mixed in is good against mineral lines, but apart from that I only see utility in pure doom drops as well as baneling drops against armies.
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Zerg drops are fine.
The way they're designed, they're meant to come a bit later in the game than Protoss or Terran drops. This is because as Zerg a) Your units benefit the most from being able to get passed the static defenses and walls of your opponent b) Every single overlord you have built becomes a transport, meaning that, conceivable, as soon as the research is finished, you can put every single army unit you have wherever you want.
You can rush drops, sure, but it costs a lot and puts you behind for a bit in exchange for the massive power you will soon have.
Consider overlord drops/nydus a Zerg tier 3 unit. 
In fact, I almost feel like they should redesign overlord drops in future expansions so that its clear you're upgrading your overlords, and that at the final tier, with drops, they become capable of some other function. I don't want to say healing, but some function that makes it clear you want to use them as part of your army.
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i just a day or two ago had a 40 minute macro game end by spamming roachs and dropping a army in 4 different locations. now that's difficult to keep up with and he just GGed when he realised half of his production facilities and his two remaining income bases were gone and i had only lost about 20 roaches.
zerg drops are AWESOME
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On October 14 2010 03:45 travito wrote:
How do you execute a moving drop?
Hold the "d" key and spam left-click on your overlords while they're moving over the enemy army.
One nice thing about zerg drops compared to the other races I forgot to mention is that there's no specific structure to scout. When you combine that with the aforementioned rareness of zerg drops, you can probably catch a lot of people by surprise. Terran's missile turret defenses and protoss's cannons will probably be mostly positioned to fight a threat hovering directly over his mineral lines, not a stream of ground-based speedy worker-death coming from a point on the edge of his main or nat. Just make sure you aren't dropping into a base that has like 1k total minerals left
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Actually, I never see Protoss drops because storm drops are not as effective as in BW and zealot bombing doesn't exist anymore. Let's not forget that the arbiter turned into a slow-ass-saucer...and you can only have one of them.
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Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus I'm suprised I've never seen maurder drop style base snipes before. I only get drop once every ten games but I still use it 3 times as much as nydus worms and I'm happy to say I've never encounter a player who is practiced against doom drops in starcraft 2:D
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On October 14 2010 04:33 SCdinner wrote:
Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus
Somehow I doubt you're taking into account the time it takes them to leave the overlords one at a time. And it still sounds like an amazing way for the zerg player to lose his whole fuckin base against a halfway decent opponent.
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having to spend so much gas on the upgrades is the real issue for me. I have so much stuff to afford mid game that I find it hard to find the right time to spend 300 on both the overlord upgrades.
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On October 14 2010 03:18 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +Well you should probably make units as well . Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches. Which is why my quote was in regards to getting the upgrade early in the game. I had said later in the game it might be viable. My point was early game gas is already tight as well is money for units as a zerg so as it stands now with the cost/time it takes, getting drops for zerg anywhere but later in the game just doesn't seem viable. I've even tried to do some cute just get drop and no OL speed to do early bane drops and it can work ok but OL's are so damn slow it is easy to be spotted.
It is viable midgame if you don't go mutas. Psy (PsyStarcraft on youtube) has experimented with roach/bling with drops with some success in the past.
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Russian Federation114 Posts
I do not use that many drops for two reasons
1- the only zerg unit effective in small number is the infestor (which happens to be able to sneak in the opponent base without needing to be dropped)
2- I rely a lot on zergling/blings in my main army, which are really difficult to fit in overlords and make doomdrops hazardous
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The ovie drops are just way too expensive, just like all the zerg's numerous and costly upgrades
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Its good for endgame stuff.
I think its extremely viable- once you have ultras lol. FG bling drops are so sexy
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On October 14 2010 04:38 adius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 04:33 SCdinner wrote:
Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus Somehow I doubt you're taking into account the time it takes them to leave the overlords one at a time. And it still sounds like an amazing way for the zerg player to lose his whole fuckin base against a halfway decent opponent.
Ok make that 11 seconds Anyways there is still room for drops but I think the unloading thing you just mentioned is why people don't use zerglings instead. It would take a second less to snipe the nexus with zerglings but since it has to drop 8 loads individually makes it much more impractical.
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People used to do overlord drops a lot in BW,
but you had two expendable units that you really didn't give a shit about.. hydras and zerglings. You could also set up a killzone with lurkers. Well, not anymore.
Currently you can drop zerglings and roaches, but roaches have pretty poor damage, and zerglings are prone to die since instead of attack moving they'll prioritize finding military targets which usually results in them dying to marines or tanks.
Also one siege tank beats the shit out of zerglings so much better than in BW.
Against Toss, they'll just warp in units.
It's no secret zerg's best fighting chance is in the open. Well, that's the exact opposite of a doom drop into someone's base. And zerg units don't snipe structures quickly enough to just drop and retreat.
So aside from doing it late game, it's not very effective.
Zergs should do baneling drops more often. i'll admit that.
But generally, you can't get OL drop stuff until between mid-late, and if zerg makes it to that point they usually win anyway.
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This poll seems a bit skewed. It's basically "Do overlords suck?" or "do overlords suck?" where's the option for "yes i usually get drops" or "yes i get drop/speed every game" i see a lot of zergs who do use drops and feel that, that minority is improperly represented by the poll.
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I love doing overlord drops, especially when the overlords are loaded with banelings. The only reason keeping me from using overlord drops every single zvt &zvp is the research time and gas cost.
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Terran Player so take with a grain of salt, but this is 200/200 for an infinite amount of dropships, how's that too expensive?
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I sometimes drop against toss to buy time to get enough/the right unit out and mabye snipe some tech if im lucky.. But this is only good on large maps. Not very effective against terran as they have no vital tech buildings except the armory.
Dropping too many units is dangerous as well, If the opponent says fuck this shit and counter attacks, you will also loose the base race. If the maps were bigger, drops would be more effective for zerg.
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On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
What does this have to do with anything? Watch any drops that you see good Terrans do, especially in the recent GSL. The medivacs' healing isn't necessary for the drop and doesn't affect it at all. The biggest gripe you could have is that overlord's aren't as fast as medivacs even with speed upgrades, but there's still enough time to get your units back in your overlords and get out once the enemy army arrives.
The cost is a legitimate gripe, but you're spending the same as getting a spire with 1 mutalisk. Or 3 mutalisks. Furthermore, even if you never get drop tech, getting overlord speed is useful against viking/phoenix harassment and as a scouting tool, so you're probably getting that anyway.
I don't consider the 8-supply cost thing to be a reasonable gripe either. Medivacs cost gas AND take time from your starports to build (if you're building a medivac, it's not a viking or banshee). Overlords are pre-built by the time drop tech hits, you already have tons of them, and replacing them costs only minerals. If you're not able to use some overlords for dropping without supply-blocking yourself horribly if you lose them, well, that's not a balance issue -- that's a skill issue.
EDIT: TL;DR: Comparing overlords to medivacs is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the tactic of dropping is overlooked by many Zergs out there (or whether the tactic simply doesn't work in the current state of the game).
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The problem with zerg drops is the investment, and it's hard to find time to get drop if you're macroing well.
Compared to Terran, it's a lot harder. It's not like you can drop 4 units and snipe any number of buildings including cc/hatch/nexus and get away with little investment. Medivacs are something terran gets anyway, so it's not like they're missing out or going out of their way to get it.
I think one of the main problems concerning drops is the marauder. They do too much damage to buildings IMO, and their drop tech is something they get anyway. Z and P have it rough in that department. If drops fail for Z or P, there isn't much use for a warp prism or overlord drop if it's defended, add that the liability of using supply units to drop and I can see why a lot of Z don't invest in drop tech at all.
During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
It costs too much to get drop, among other problems.
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On October 14 2010 05:59 Playguuu wrote:
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During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
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It seems like most Terran upgrades are "gimme" upgrades, though. 50/50 or 100/100 is nothing. Is that really the reasoning behind it? I can't remember why Blizzard made ovie speed 100/100 instead of the original 50/50.
I admit I don't get drop -- I find mutalisks to be superior for harassment and less-micro-intensive to boot (giving me a better chance to take a macro advantage from harassing).
If speed were 50/50 and drop were 100/100 (or even 150/150), I think every Zerg would get the upgrade every game.
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On October 14 2010 05:59 Playguuu wrote:
The problem with zerg drops is the investment, and it's hard to find time to get drop if you're macroing well.
Compared to Terran, it's a lot harder. It's not like you can drop 4 units and snipe any number of buildings including cc/hatch/nexus and get away with little investment. Medivacs are something terran gets anyway, so it's not like they're missing out or going out of their way to get it.
I think one of the main problems concerning drops is the marauder. They do too much damage to buildings IMO, and their drop tech is something they get anyway. Z and P have it rough in that department. If drops fail for Z or P, there isn't much use for a warp prism or overlord drop if it's defended, add that the liability of using supply units to drop and I can see why a lot of Z don't invest in drop tech at all.
During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
It costs too much to get drop, among other problems.
It's really funny how warpgate is 50/50. They can't apply the same logic to all races?
And LOL at all the people who continue to think that zerg drop MUST be used for harrassment and not part of a regular engagement.
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On October 14 2010 06:05 Uhh Negative wrote:
And LOL at all the people who continue to think that zerg drop MUST be used for harrassment and not part of a regular engagement.
What do you mean by "regular engagement"? I could see where it might be useful to allow your ground units to attack from a direction you wouldn't normally be able to access and avoid death by choke, but I think nydus might actually be better for that.
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I usually only get OL drops late in the game when I have spare resources, or as part of an All in strategy
The reasons why I tend not to use it much are:
- It requires a lot of micro to make good use of it
- Time/cost, because it creates an opening where you will be at a disadvantage if an attack happens, and the enemy has ample time to get anti-air such as turrets/vikings before you can get the tech
- Zerg units will get overwhelmed easily in small numbers, so unless you can get straight into their mineral line or snipe something important without facing any army directly your units will probably be wasted. (marine marauder just work so much better in a ball, and they also get healed which makes a big difference.)
- You are most likely are going to lose the units you send in a drop, so you have to be careful about not committing too much to an attack, or else go all in with it. Its very difficult to do hit and run and escape with your units because they either have slow movement, or they have to spread out so much to get in range when attacking its much more difficult to get them back in the overlords to run away.
That said its pretty good for sending a few lings / banelings into the enemy mineral lines if you catch them unprepared
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That poll in OP is hugely biased, and thus has inaccurate conclusion.
Zerg drops are a viable option, but perhaps not used as much in SC2 as nydus canal is much more effective.
However baneling drop works great to break down marine ball and/or siege lines.
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The problem with zerg drops:
(1) The actual drop research takes a really long time to get
(2) There isn't much worth dropping until much later. Even then nothing is really cost efficient to drop on most armies/players in small numbers compared to other races
(3) Every OL is a larva and contributes to your supply.
Banelings are awesome to drop. Doom drops are awesome. However, you won't really be doing either of those before the 10 minute mark.
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I think the upgrade is too slow. It means I have to go muta to counter cliff abuse.
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They aren't common because there's a combination of costs.
*-8 supply if they get shot down
*Zerg units in small numbers aren't that great unless drop Ultralisks or go carpet bombing with Banelings
*One larva
*It costs MUCH more than the drop ships of other races
*Other than functioning as a drop ship, Overlords don't provide other functions that are useful for battle. Medivacs can heal the drop party, and Warp Prisms can warp in units as well as function as a pylon, so you can go happy cannon rushing.
*THERE'S THE GODDAMN NYDUS NETWORK.
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i dont agree with this poll... how does it cost too much you pay 200/200 for drops or w/e it is and u get like 30 dropships aka overlords... makes sense zerg players.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
vs terran drop is a must.
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the cost is cheap as hell, i don't know what that poll is all about. pay 200/200 and 100/100 for speed and suddenly you have unlimited drop ships. that's too much cost? give me a break. all the top players use overlord drops and are successful with them so if you can't work it into your game that your own fault
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Thirty dropships is only useful in a game where you can actually use all thirty dropships. How often does that happen? You can't just look at the raw numbers and ignore the actual play environment they're implemented in.
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Nydus is good for very long distance army traveling, but drops are better for quick hits. The nydus spends too much time trying to penetrate the ground that they're not worth it offensively.
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I don't think zerg drops are bad, they just look bad compared to terran.
A zerg player has to invest more than terran in order to get a quick 4-hydra drop to harass with, but the amount of damage that a 4-hydra drop will do is much less than what a 4-marauder drop will do, and the hydra drop will come later in the game.
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On October 13 2010 17:39 Sirion wrote:
There are many factors why overlord drops are not used, I will make a list:
a) Unsuitable units: The only high range high dps unit is the Hydralisk. It is also not used against terrans, and against Protoss the timing window where Hydras can be very effective before storm/colossus arrive is small. Also 8 Hydras << 8 stimmed Marines + 4 stimmed Marauders + 2 Medivacs.
b) Long and expensive research: Investing 100/100 for better scouting is already tight early midgame, 200/200 more for drop is impossible. High research time means that you cannot spontaneously decide to drop after a decisive battle.
c) Slow overlord speed: Before the speed upgrade drop research is useless. After the upgrade an overlord has a speed of about 1.87, a medivac has a speed of 2.75, a huge difference.
That means:
-retreating is more difficult
-If the drop is seen, the opponent has more reaction time
-The time your main army is weaker is longer
d) Zerg has no defenders advantage, so an army is necessary to stay safe. If you load half your army in overlords for a drop and the opponent attacks, you lose the game. If your drop fails because the opponents army is at home and you drop, you lose that half of your army. Then the opponent attacks and you lose the game.
e)Economy: Early game a zergs economy is way behind, and the only stable gameplan is to gain a better and better economy to be even in midgame and ahead in lategame. Spending 300/300+units in midgame on drops does not help this plan, better get upgrades and stay safe.
In my opinion there are essentially three reasons for droping as a zerg:
-you are way ahead economically and just need a way to end the game
-you need to defend against cliffdrops (better to downvote the map...)
-Baneling-Bombing, which is actually viable
So what is the message to take home? Try out baneling bombing instead of mutalisk harass.
Just quoting this post on the 2nd page for those of you who skipped it.
Yes, Overlord Drops are cheap compared to drops for Terran. But Zerg can do far less with its drops than Terran can (sniping a Spire with a drop = a huge deal. sniping a single factory = practically useless) and lack units that can burst down buildings in small numbers (until you get Ultras, which each take up one Overlord slot...).
Yes, you get a ton of Drop-capable units as soon as you spend 300/300 resources in research. But unlike Terran you actually NEED all those units to carry our unit-heavy armies.
Finally the lack of a wall-off means that sending your whole army in would lead to a base trade scenario, which Terran excels at (lift-off to islands, anyone?).
Reducing the costs on the Drop researches would probably lead to Drops being used more, but they really won't be any more effective, especially considering the ENORMOUS research time.
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Thirty dropships is only useful in a game where you can actually use all thirty dropships. How often does that happen? You can't just look at the raw numbers and ignore the actual play environment they're implemented in.
Was just thinking the same thing. But it isn't any zerg players saying that obviously. The question is why don't you see more drops, well they are only cost effective late in games, and then you have to choose to use them, and the game has to last that long.
Just the fact that only a certain small percentage of games go long enough to make drops cost effective, couple that with needing to be the right situation to use them = not used often.
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Summarizing this thread, I think the ultimate argument is that Zerg doesn't drop because Zerg doesn't have anything good to put in the dropship.
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Yup. And I think that's a pretty good assessment.
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On October 14 2010 07:15 Liquid`Ret wrote:
vs terran drop is a must.
I agree but if the terran is playing right you wont be able to afford the upgrades until mid/late game, but you're ret so I’ll be quiet now.
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drops are most effective against tanks... I think they are underused actually, because especially with the banelings they are awesome
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On October 14 2010 06:33 adius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 06:05 Uhh Negative wrote:
And LOL at all the people who continue to think that zerg drop MUST be used for harrassment and not part of a regular engagement. What do you mean by "regular engagement"? I could see where it might be useful to allow your ground units to attack from a direction you wouldn't normally be able to access and avoid death by choke, but I think nydus might actually be better for that.
As in, 1A half your army into the enemies' army then have the other half of your army in the ovies and do a moving drop over top of the enemy. Watch FruitDealer do this in the GSL.
On October 14 2010 08:12 GenT wrote:I agree but if the terran is playing right you wont be able to afford the upgrades until mid/late game, but you're ret so I’ll be quiet now.
And what is wrong with that? No one said "Oh you must use drops in the early game OR ELSE!"
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I guess most people associate Drops with dropping units into the enemy's main to take out structures and units. But Zerg are better off using them to get their fragile units into the middle of the Terran ball. (<3 Baneling Drops)
To be honest, I'd love some sort of anti-building unit (or upgrade for some other unit) to drop into bases. Right now there's only Banelings, and I'd rather save those to use against Bio due to their one-time-use.
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The researchtime takes sooooo long.. and 200m/200g is very expensive. banelings, are expensive too, hydras too, mutas too... 200gas in hydras/banelings/roaches/mutas+upgrades or dropping??? so often u just need units unts units, before starting some fancy stuff like dropping with overloards
One the other hand, zerg is spending alot of money in making overloards, so fu*** use them! its maybe as good as medivacs, u can spread them out in the base of the enemy!!! U just can spend ur overmins in droping alot of lings and mb gas heavy units in the lategame.
Overloard could get some more armor for dropping against marines, tank stuff...
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EPT
