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Poll: Why do you think Zerg drops are so rare?The overlord upgrades are too expensive for what they do. (487) 86% It doesn't fit your macro oriented play style. (38) 7% You don't think it would be that effective. (23) 4% The speed upgrade isn't as effective as it should be. (12) 2% Overlords can't carry enough units. (4) 1% 564 total votes Your vote: Why do you think Zerg drops are so rare? (Vote): The overlord upgrades are too expensive for what they do.
(Vote): The speed upgrade isn't as effective as it should be.
(Vote): Overlords can't carry enough units.
(Vote): You don't think it would be that effective.
(Vote): It doesn't fit your macro oriented play style.
I've been hearing people complain a ton about how cheap terran drops are, but I rarely see drops from the other two races. I have seen pro Zerg players use drops once or twice, but the average zerg player seems to avoid them like the plague.
While I'm not very good at zerg, I have tried drops a couple times and they seem to work well because your opponent expects you to attack them directly with a ground army or try harassing with mutas.
I'm not saying it should become as common as Terran drops, but it certainly has a place in the Zerg arsenal.
Just wondering what other players thought.
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Where is the vote that people do - Do overlord drops Aka Fruit dealer who won the GSL
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I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
I think Zerg drop can be really deadly in zvt (as proved, dropping baneling, roach, ultra), but not really strong in zvp because of the stalker (extra damage to armored unit)
But on the other hand, Zerg players need to learn how to moving drop, I lolz whenever they send the overlords to my army and the overlords move, stand there and begin to unload. By the time they unload, my army has already gone.
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Add option that its hard to identify a good time to drop
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Most zergs just dont have the skill to maintain their macro and do drops at the same time, especially outside of korea. We all seen how AMAZING it can be when Cool does it, but so far hes the only one we've seen do it. I think thats pretty telling, if zergs would try new strats/use drops more instead of crying all day, zerg will dominate everything like Cool already does.
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Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
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On October 13 2010 15:44 canikizu wrote:
I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it.
Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time.
But they cost
1) larve and;
2) 8 Supply if they die.
On October 13 2010 15:47 Skyze wrote:
if zergs would try new strats/use drops more instead of crying all day, zerg will dominate everything like Cool already does.
Why aren't you as good as Tester then? You don't cry all day long like us stupid zerg! So you must be amazing!
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Drops have mostly been used to get close to tanks without taking horrendous splash damage.
Otherwise they have been out of desperation or while being contained.
They are situational for Zerg, and in a regular game you could easily get by without basing a strategy off drops.
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I actually get the Overlord drop research a lot, but there's not a whole lot you can actually do with it to effectively harass compared to what you could do by just using Mutalisks. Also you can't really expect to just end a game with a big drop as opposed to just playing it safe and teching up till you have your big guns. Sure, it can be done, but it's a lot harder and less reliable.
I end up using Drops just to expand to islands, or to drop Banelings on tank lines.
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Unlike Terran, Zerg units can't stand 1v1 fightes when being outnumbered, as they lack in micro-possibilities like the Marines and Marauders do, as they are to slow/have low range.
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Should also add a poll "Do you think Zergs will win more if Zergs incorporated drops into their gameplay?"
I think it has a lot to do with how the races are played. Terrans need to harass in order to keep Zerg from becoming a monster, so drops are essential. Most of the time Zerg only really needs to not to get harassed (lol good luck) so good defence has higher priority over being aggressive. What needs to be discussed is whether offense could be used as defence. It's blantly obvious being aggressive makes the opponent passive. By doing drops, you can make the opponent be passive which let's Zergs macro. Another issue is whether containing with mutas is much more effective than doing drops as Zerg. As the poll shows, people feel upgrades are too expensive.
People's thoughts: Why not use that money to get mutas and make T/P more passive and defensive?
I think these are the factors people needs to consider, however I think after watching GSL it is possible drops could be more cost effective than Mutas just because it is rarely used so T/P cannot react in time. So... Only time will tell if Zerg drops (not doom drops, mean just casual drops) will be next step in Zerg Metagame.
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While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it.
Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time.
But they cost
1) larve and;
2) 8 Supply if they die.
Why aren't you as good as Tester then? You don't cry all day long like us stupid zerg! So you must be amazing!
another way of looking at it is if you make a overlord for the purpose of dropping they only cost 100 minerals and no supply
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On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
haven't read many more inaccurate posts on tl before.
300/300 is the cost of 3 drop ships, not to mention the supply they take up, consuming the production abilities of your starport(s), etc. the cost for a terran to get 3 dropships can give zerg 20+. overlords are essentially free to use as a drop unit because you already have them made for other reasons. zerg drops are hands down the cheapest in the game.
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I've been "forcing" myself to get overlord drop as soon as 200/200 seems affordable since a while, just to open my mind to dropping. The long research time seems somewhat okay, although combined with the high costs you don't get overlord drop until the aggression from the enemy drops and you feel save.
From using it, I feel like the problem actually is that you need to drop a rather large part of your army for it to be similiar effective as protoss drop-warpins or terran drops. Which again means you have to risk way more and split up your army, which is dangerous for zerg.
The main way drop is useful, is for dumping minerals in mid-late zergling-drops (which are mainly effective as suprise with upgraded zerglings) and baneling-bombing (which is actually pretty good and can even demolish a protoss ball, but again only because players arent used to it).
But in general as zerg you don't feel like you got any units to "spare" for dropping, since you already try to stay at a minimum for maximizing your drone production.
Of course there is the doom-drop to end a game, but to me it seems it mainly works when you are in a rather save position anyway.
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On October 13 2010 15:53 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 15:44 canikizu wrote:
I think Zerg drops is underrated because unlike T or P, overlord is unlimited, and they are cheap too (only 100 mineral 200hp 25sec buildtime, compared to medivac 100 mineral 100 gas 150 hp, 42 sec build time). Sure that it takes quite long time to upgrade the tech, but consider zerg always having 2,3 hatcheries, you can easily research it at the same time.
While I agree that Drop should be used more, this is a bad way to justify it. Yes, Overlords are cheaper than Medivacs, and yes, they take less time. But they cost 1) larve and; 2) 8 Supply if they die.
Every Z units cost larva, as much as I feel for Z players, using the larva card is getting old. I think it's the Z core that larva management is the most important. If it's so much important, why not dedicate another hatch (300 more minerals I know) for overlord and other small stuff only. I'm practicing Z and I found out that it's easier for me to do that. I can create overlords, scout zerglings, quick drone spawning for small stuffs.
Besides, medivac also cost 2 supply, and they are useless when they have no mana (except drop, I guess lolz), but overlords cost no supply and can generate creeps. 3 overlords clumping up can generate creeps so fast that it's almost imba.
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Honestly, the overlord drop / speed upgrades are fine as it is. The only change I would make is change the speed upgrade back to 50/50.
The reason I don't really use OL drop tech because I'm under the assumption that it's not ideal to base your entire game off of doing a drop. So in order to use it as a "tactic" you honestly have to be pretty good. The amount of multi-tasking and APM you need to drop effectively as well as maintain your macro and do all of the little things you need to do like creep tumors etc. is quite high imo. It's very difficult to do it well.
Of course, the only way to get better and more comfortable doing drops is to do them. I'd definitely try it on maps like Lost Temple because you can cover yourself with cliff crap. Some of the stuff oGsZenio(?) did on LT was awesome and definitely something to check out.
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In BW, Zerg drops were arguably the least popular among the 3 races. Terran's drop mechanics are overall pretty similar and possibly even better now with the medivac acting as both a dropship and a medic. Protoss had very strong storm drop, DT drops, and reaver harass. All of these were for the most part almost always cost efficient.
Zerg, while not being worthless, had not so great drops in comparison because it's difficult to snipe buildings with any zerg unit besides maybe cracklings and hydras. But pathing for melee units always made this slightly difficult and hydras were fairly fragile to several units that Protoss and Terran units may have when there's no room to micro. Not to mention it was fairly difficult to execute a drop unless there was a large quantity drop (a la doom drops). Small drops only work early with lurker drops or MAYBE drops with a defiler.
Now drops are much harder to be cost effective. Not only do zerglings absolutely suck at taking out structures now (does Terran really need a +2 armor to structure upgrade? this seems a bit excess), but hydras are much more expensive and even more fragile as everything has more range and ton more hp now to defer zerg drops much more efficiently. No Lurkers or Dark Swarm doesn't make it any easier as well. You really need a huge drop that goes undetected for the most part to be effective, but with AA so much stronger in this game for Terran (and sensor towers help), it's hard to justify drops when you can just use mutaling mobility as a more reliable approach.
With that being said, I can imagine sneaky baneling drops on the mineral line being very good while fighting on the front.
EDIT: I want to also say that trying to justify dropping with overlords are just as cost effective as medivacs is pure BS. Terrans build Medivacs 90% of the time because they are excellent healers. You generally don't build MMM with the thought process of "I'm building these things only because I want to drop on their base". You build them because they heal your army, and if the situation arises where you can drop, you conveniently have the dropships available to do so. And there's no reason not to. If you're going MM, you will never be like "well, I don't really plan on dropping, I guess I won't make medivacs if this reaches the mid to late game phase".
Zerg doesn't quite have this luxury, especially when Zerg is so gas needy. It's hard to justify a 300/300 investment on just having the opportunity to drop in the early to mid game phase especially when it's so easy to turtle off one base in SC2. What are you gonna do? Drop some zerglings in the opponents base? Not only does this not sound threatening at all, but you also just wasted 300/300 on an upgrade that may just not be useful at all anymore. That's 3 mutas that could be harassing now which sounds a lot more intimidating.
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Overlord upgrades are pretty expensive, and Zerg is already gas intensive. When they OV speed was cheaper, Zergs used to always get it at Lair. If OV upgrades were cheaper, I think we'd definitely see a lot more creative drop play. The other issue with OV drop is that you need both speed and drop. Sure its possible to just get drop, but its not going to be effective without speed.
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Drops only become economically viable late, game. This probably isn't entirely true, but you'd have to base a build around getting drop research as 300 min and 300 gas plus the overlord cost/supply is very very expensive early to mid game.
This is especially true because early to mid game is when zerg are at the most vulnerable and you have to be using pretty much all your resources to either get units or get a competative economy. Zerg don't have the luxury of deciding when to attack, we have to react and be ready for what the opponent throws at us at all times.
Though I think early drop play could be very strong, but you'd have to base a build around it/get the timing right. And if you don't do that much damage it doesn't seem worth it.
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I'm fine with the cost but the research time is absolutely ridiculous, it's close to a marine's build time longer than a spire, which is a pretty long frikkin time. if you invest that much minerals and gas you need to see some sort of payoff much sooner than 130 in-game seconds...
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EPT
