|
On October 13 2010 17:39 Sirion wrote:
There are many factors why overlord drops are not used, I will make a list:
a) Unsuitable units: The only high range high dps unit is the Hydralisk. It is also not used against terrans, and against Protoss the timing window where Hydras can be very effective before storm/colossus arrive is small. Also 8 Hydras << 8 stimmed Marines + 4 stimmed Marauders + 2 Medivacs.
b) Long and expensive research: Investing 100/100 for better scouting is already tight early midgame, 200/200 more for drop is impossible. High research time means that you cannot spontaneously decide to drop after a decisive battle.
c) Slow overlord speed: Before the speed upgrade drop research is useless. After the upgrade an overlord has a speed of about 1.87, a medivac has a speed of 2.75, a huge difference.
That means:
-retreating is more difficult
-If the drop is seen, the opponent has more reaction time
-The time your main army is weaker is longer
d) Zerg has no defenders advantage, so an army is necessary to stay safe. If you load half your army in overlords for a drop and the opponent attacks, you lose the game. If your drop fails because the opponents army is at home and you drop, you lose that half of your army. Then the opponent attacks and you lose the game.
e)Economy: Early game a zergs economy is way behind, and the only stable gameplan is to gain a better and better economy to be even in midgame and ahead in lategame. Spending 300/300+units in midgame on drops does not help this plan, better get upgrades and stay safe.
In my opinion there are essentially three reasons for droping as a zerg:
-you are way ahead economically and just need a way to end the game
-you need to defend against cliffdrops (better to downvote the map...)
-Baneling-Bombing, which is actually viable
So what is the message to take home? Try out baneling bombing instead of mutalisk harass.
/thread
Imo the key is the combination of slow => more time for opponent to bring in army and lower DPS units => Zerg needs longer to do damage. Then there is the combination of weak defensive army => enemy can crush the front and slow => whatever is dropping usually dies instead of escaping.
|
The betters zergs I see and play with are the ones who use drops. Try to fit the drops into your economy and I think you will find yourself some interesting new strategy's. I have seen malice tear people up by doing drops.
Ret was also doing drops the other day on someones stream.
|
Just to show how nice baneling drops can be, not just at the mineral line:
Bombing-Run 1 - didn't do as much dmg as I wished, especially because I missmicroed somewhat (distracted him enough to kill of his expansions worker-line though) and the enemy was kinda lucky with his units being spread. Nontheless, I dealt quite some damage and it was amusing to see him positioning his units right under my overlords, since he exspected a "normal" drop.
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/banelingbomb1nh66.gif)
The second bombing run shortly after hit bulls-eye though, especially since the collossi were still damaged:
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/banelingbomb28c7v.gif)
Nontheless I was pretty much ahead in that game after defending a 4 gate and macroing afterwards. But as support of your main army or deadly harrassment its great. Losing overlords isnt really the issue if you prepare (200-300 minerals arent much in mid- to lategame), I tend to send empty ones ahead as tanks for the actualy bombers. Its more getting the drop upgrades, banelings and getting into position for attacking.
|
I think as many people have said, part of the problem why drops are less common for zerg (and protoss) is the dps difference between Z drops and T drops. With T, one medivac can carry 8 marines which have high dps and can stim - the fact that they're weak doesn't matter since drops happen away from the main force. In a set amount of time the marines can do more damage than, say, 4 roaches, or 4 hydras.
Another reason why I think Z do less drops is that they have an alternative - nydus worms. Sure, these don't really get enough use either, but the fact that they're equal in gas cost, and can get many more units to a particular spot makes them a great alternative. Not to mention the fact that your opponent is much more likely to divert their whole army to stop a nydus worm (that has completed) than to a drop.
|
To add to Sirion's excellent points:
Once you drop, your melee units are now fighting in-between buildings against units with 6 range. Oftentimes, fighting in-base is just as bad or worse than attacking the front as the same situation arises: your units are stopped by buildings and theirs aren't.
|
Don't forget that zerg can completely forgo drops and use nydus as well. It works especally good on deaf opponents...
|
If anyone does not think it is worth it to research drops vs a mainly tank/marine terran, then they are crazy. It's the absolute best way to fight this build. Terran relies on their tanks to kill the banelings before they reach the marines so what better way than to baneling drop the marines and send in roaches to deal with the tanks. I've had a lot of success simply loading all my banelings and a few overlords worth of roachs and then 1A and move drop across a terran army.
It's funny how half the people in this thread see the word drop and automatically think that you HAVE to use drops for dropping in the base like an annoying (good) terran. Zerg drops are far more effective in an actual engagement than dropping in a base. Don't think of drops as a gimmicky upgrade. If you are going roach/bling/infestor its almost essential for engagements.
The point of drops for zerg is to avoid the long range units of terran/protoss and drop your units in close to the enemy so they can begin dealing damage immediately. This effectively eliminates the advantage of range that your opponent had.
edit: watch FruitDealer. He showcases how zerg drop should be used.
|
1200 Zerg player here and I would love to know how 300/300 is too expensive to turn your 10+ OL at mid game into 10 dropships...
|
I think most Zerg's don't drop because they lack the multitasking and apm to make it effective.
Your poll kinda assumes that players are consciously refraining to use drop.
Moreover, I posit that all "Why do do so few players use x unit, strat, or tactic" can be answered in one of the following three ways:
1) Too many are ignorant of such a move's possibility.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Mutalisk control before July and other pioneers was simply hidden. People used to ask "Why don't more Zerg's use Mutalisks?".
2) The action simply lacks benefit or is mere exploitation.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Terrance Nubowitz asks, "Why don't more Protoss go 6 gate off-one base? 4 gate seems to work pretty well after-all and you have plenty of minerals for probes and stuff too. "
3* This point is a corollary to 1) and it is that the player lacks the multitasking or handspeed to make pull such a move off.
+ Show Spoiler [e.g.] +Ideal Zerg drops require at least four to five upgrades including: lair, two O'relord upgrades, plus whatever unit you are dropping and it's upgrades (M'boost, Glial, Hydralisk Range, +1 attack/carapace etc).
Consider Fruit D's exemplary RTS play. No exploitation or trickery. He consistently began with map control in mind to the pressure opponent so that he could freely develop an economy to fuel the burgeoning swarm. You may remember how everytime his Mutalisks were out harassing the Terran his production bar was stacked with the upgrades mentioned above. His plan involved using B'ling drops, yes, but that was not the goal.
Being able to effectively spread creep, inject larvae, never hear "build more overlords", backstab, flank, kite, etc are drastically more important skills to hone than Drops or Nydus. Only after you can effectively micro and macro a suitable force should you begin to focus on tactics like dropping.
+ Show Spoiler [BW nostalgia] +
I remember when I used to try to do drops in BW and it would be pretty effective because I focus all my attention on it but then upon returning home to my base I would see three larvae begging to be morphed but first having to make overlords and having 1532min/1023gas...right before the counter attack came.
|
I'm not an experienced Zerg player in SC2 by any means, so pardon me if this comment seems nub. What about Nydus worms? I rarely ever see them used in game, and aren't they just a better form of "drop", for zerg?
|
Been Dropin Roaches on on armies since Ro4 GSL. Inspiration was fruit-dealer. Works well vs Terran Mech, and Protoss when they have mostly Zealot Colossus. It really helps negate splash Dmg, and helps surround your opponent preventing a lot of micro options for them.
Would like Drop upgrade to have decreased time. Wish Overlords were faster. However thats just cause im a biased Zerg player. Take any advantage i could get.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Nidus drops are awesome. It's bad, tha we can't cancel it
|
more psychological, they don twant to lose food
|
I'd really love to mix drops into my play more but aside from late game like people had mentioned when you might have the extra money I just don't see where I can squeeze 300/300 in and not lose to some early push. I always feel like when I play I'm hanging on by a thread against p/t until I can get my economy really rolling as is.
It is a shame because in BW I use to love hydra drops.
Once again I just feel like this is another option presented cheaper and more effective to the other races but not afforded for zerg. Would love to see a cheaper/faster OL speed and transport upgrade but don't see that happening.
|
On October 14 2010 00:19 Ekko wrote:
Don't forget that zerg can completely forgo drops and use nydus as well. It works especally good on deaf opponents...
Mostly the sub category of deaf opponents who don't look at their minimap, scout or set up depots/pylons around their base. Lot's of those at a high level I'm sure.
|
On October 14 2010 02:28 FLuE wrote:
I'd really love to mix drops into my play more but aside from late game like people had mentioned when you might have the extra money I just don't see where I can squeeze 300/300 in and not lose to some early push. I always feel like when I play I'm hanging on by a thread against p/t until I can get my economy really rolling as is.
It is a shame because in BW I use to love hydra drops.
Once again I just feel like this is another option presented cheaper and more effective to the other races but not afforded for zerg. Would love to see a cheaper/faster OL speed and transport upgrade but don't see that happening.
That's funny because zerg drops are pretty much the cheapest. 300/300 for essentially an instant 10-15 dropships is pretty good.
|
What good are 10-15 drop ships if you have nothing to put in them?
|
On October 14 2010 00:54 nonparfumee wrote:
I'm not an experienced Zerg player in SC2 by any means, so pardon me if this comment seems nub. What about Nydus worms? I rarely ever see them used in game, and aren't they just a better form of "drop", for zerg?
Nydus worms are basically a slower form of a drop with the only real benefit over drop being instant transport. Since Nydus worms unload one at a time they are not very effective against good opponents usually and can only really be used either in the really late game as players get 4+ bases or as a very risky, heavy cost gamble in the early-mid game against something like a toss forge FE build.
|
On October 14 2010 02:44 FLuE wrote:
What good are 10-15 drop ships if you have nothing to put in them?
Well you should probably make units as well :p. Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches.
|
Medivacs are superior to overlords mainly because they heal. Having a flying healer to support your drops makes your drops WAY more effective.
Overlords, however, are more of a liability than a support as a drop unit, because losing them means you lose supply. I guarantee that if medivacs didn't heal and were the Terrans' souce of supply, you'd see far fewer drops from Terrans.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
