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On October 14 2010 03:18 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +Well you should probably make units as well . Of course if you go straight from lair completion to researching drop of course you won't have that many units. It's all about timing.
Is burrow/tunneling claws for roaches useless because it costs 350/350? Of course not. You will still have roaches. Which is why my quote was in regards to getting the upgrade early in the game. I had said later in the game it might be viable. My point was early game gas is already tight as well is money for units as a zerg so as it stands now with the cost/time it takes, getting drops for zerg anywhere but later in the game just doesn't seem viable. I've even tried to do some cute just get drop and no OL speed to do early bane drops and it can work ok but OL's are so damn slow it is easy to be spotted.
It is viable midgame if you don't go mutas. Psy (PsyStarcraft on youtube) has experimented with roach/bling with drops with some success in the past.
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Russian Federation114 Posts
I do not use that many drops for two reasons
1- the only zerg unit effective in small number is the infestor (which happens to be able to sneak in the opponent base without needing to be dropped)
2- I rely a lot on zergling/blings in my main army, which are really difficult to fit in overlords and make doomdrops hazardous
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The ovie drops are just way too expensive, just like all the zerg's numerous and costly upgrades
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Its good for endgame stuff.
I think its extremely viable- once you have ultras lol. FG bling drops are so sexy
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On October 14 2010 04:38 adius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 04:33 SCdinner wrote:
Considering it takes 9 seconds for three overlords full of hydras to destroy a nexus Somehow I doubt you're taking into account the time it takes them to leave the overlords one at a time. And it still sounds like an amazing way for the zerg player to lose his whole fuckin base against a halfway decent opponent.
Ok make that 11 seconds Anyways there is still room for drops but I think the unloading thing you just mentioned is why people don't use zerglings instead. It would take a second less to snipe the nexus with zerglings but since it has to drop 8 loads individually makes it much more impractical.
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People used to do overlord drops a lot in BW,
but you had two expendable units that you really didn't give a shit about.. hydras and zerglings. You could also set up a killzone with lurkers. Well, not anymore.
Currently you can drop zerglings and roaches, but roaches have pretty poor damage, and zerglings are prone to die since instead of attack moving they'll prioritize finding military targets which usually results in them dying to marines or tanks.
Also one siege tank beats the shit out of zerglings so much better than in BW.
Against Toss, they'll just warp in units.
It's no secret zerg's best fighting chance is in the open. Well, that's the exact opposite of a doom drop into someone's base. And zerg units don't snipe structures quickly enough to just drop and retreat.
So aside from doing it late game, it's not very effective.
Zergs should do baneling drops more often. i'll admit that.
But generally, you can't get OL drop stuff until between mid-late, and if zerg makes it to that point they usually win anyway.
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This poll seems a bit skewed. It's basically "Do overlords suck?" or "do overlords suck?" where's the option for "yes i usually get drops" or "yes i get drop/speed every game" i see a lot of zergs who do use drops and feel that, that minority is improperly represented by the poll.
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I love doing overlord drops, especially when the overlords are loaded with banelings. The only reason keeping me from using overlord drops every single zvt &zvp is the research time and gas cost.
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Terran Player so take with a grain of salt, but this is 200/200 for an infinite amount of dropships, how's that too expensive?
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I sometimes drop against toss to buy time to get enough/the right unit out and mabye snipe some tech if im lucky.. But this is only good on large maps. Not very effective against terran as they have no vital tech buildings except the armory.
Dropping too many units is dangerous as well, If the opponent says fuck this shit and counter attacks, you will also loose the base race. If the maps were bigger, drops would be more effective for zerg.
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On October 13 2010 15:52 Hypatio wrote:
Unlike medivacs, overlords don't heal units and you do not risk 8 supply if it dies, and 300/300 for drop-viable overlords is way too expensive early to mid game.
What does this have to do with anything? Watch any drops that you see good Terrans do, especially in the recent GSL. The medivacs' healing isn't necessary for the drop and doesn't affect it at all. The biggest gripe you could have is that overlord's aren't as fast as medivacs even with speed upgrades, but there's still enough time to get your units back in your overlords and get out once the enemy army arrives.
The cost is a legitimate gripe, but you're spending the same as getting a spire with 1 mutalisk. Or 3 mutalisks. Furthermore, even if you never get drop tech, getting overlord speed is useful against viking/phoenix harassment and as a scouting tool, so you're probably getting that anyway.
I don't consider the 8-supply cost thing to be a reasonable gripe either. Medivacs cost gas AND take time from your starports to build (if you're building a medivac, it's not a viking or banshee). Overlords are pre-built by the time drop tech hits, you already have tons of them, and replacing them costs only minerals. If you're not able to use some overlords for dropping without supply-blocking yourself horribly if you lose them, well, that's not a balance issue -- that's a skill issue.
EDIT: TL;DR: Comparing overlords to medivacs is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the tactic of dropping is overlooked by many Zergs out there (or whether the tactic simply doesn't work in the current state of the game).
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The problem with zerg drops is the investment, and it's hard to find time to get drop if you're macroing well.
Compared to Terran, it's a lot harder. It's not like you can drop 4 units and snipe any number of buildings including cc/hatch/nexus and get away with little investment. Medivacs are something terran gets anyway, so it's not like they're missing out or going out of their way to get it.
I think one of the main problems concerning drops is the marauder. They do too much damage to buildings IMO, and their drop tech is something they get anyway. Z and P have it rough in that department. If drops fail for Z or P, there isn't much use for a warp prism or overlord drop if it's defended, add that the liability of using supply units to drop and I can see why a lot of Z don't invest in drop tech at all.
During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
It costs too much to get drop, among other problems.
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On October 14 2010 05:59 Playguuu wrote:
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During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
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It seems like most Terran upgrades are "gimme" upgrades, though. 50/50 or 100/100 is nothing. Is that really the reasoning behind it? I can't remember why Blizzard made ovie speed 100/100 instead of the original 50/50.
I admit I don't get drop -- I find mutalisks to be superior for harassment and less-micro-intensive to boot (giving me a better chance to take a macro advantage from harassing).
If speed were 50/50 and drop were 100/100 (or even 150/150), I think every Zerg would get the upgrade every game.
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On October 14 2010 05:59 Playguuu wrote:
The problem with zerg drops is the investment, and it's hard to find time to get drop if you're macroing well.
Compared to Terran, it's a lot harder. It's not like you can drop 4 units and snipe any number of buildings including cc/hatch/nexus and get away with little investment. Medivacs are something terran gets anyway, so it's not like they're missing out or going out of their way to get it.
I think one of the main problems concerning drops is the marauder. They do too much damage to buildings IMO, and their drop tech is something they get anyway. Z and P have it rough in that department. If drops fail for Z or P, there isn't much use for a warp prism or overlord drop if it's defended, add that the liability of using supply units to drop and I can see why a lot of Z don't invest in drop tech at all.
During beta blizzard stated they didn't want any "gimme" upgrades, something so cheap that most players wouldn't think twice about getting. 50/50 is hardly a big investment for marauders, but they made overlord speed 100/100.
It costs too much to get drop, among other problems.
It's really funny how warpgate is 50/50. They can't apply the same logic to all races?
And LOL at all the people who continue to think that zerg drop MUST be used for harrassment and not part of a regular engagement.
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On October 14 2010 06:05 Uhh Negative wrote:
And LOL at all the people who continue to think that zerg drop MUST be used for harrassment and not part of a regular engagement.
What do you mean by "regular engagement"? I could see where it might be useful to allow your ground units to attack from a direction you wouldn't normally be able to access and avoid death by choke, but I think nydus might actually be better for that.
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I usually only get OL drops late in the game when I have spare resources, or as part of an All in strategy
The reasons why I tend not to use it much are:
- It requires a lot of micro to make good use of it
- Time/cost, because it creates an opening where you will be at a disadvantage if an attack happens, and the enemy has ample time to get anti-air such as turrets/vikings before you can get the tech
- Zerg units will get overwhelmed easily in small numbers, so unless you can get straight into their mineral line or snipe something important without facing any army directly your units will probably be wasted. (marine marauder just work so much better in a ball, and they also get healed which makes a big difference.)
- You are most likely are going to lose the units you send in a drop, so you have to be careful about not committing too much to an attack, or else go all in with it. Its very difficult to do hit and run and escape with your units because they either have slow movement, or they have to spread out so much to get in range when attacking its much more difficult to get them back in the overlords to run away.
That said its pretty good for sending a few lings / banelings into the enemy mineral lines if you catch them unprepared
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That poll in OP is hugely biased, and thus has inaccurate conclusion.
Zerg drops are a viable option, but perhaps not used as much in SC2 as nydus canal is much more effective.
However baneling drop works great to break down marine ball and/or siege lines.
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The problem with zerg drops:
(1) The actual drop research takes a really long time to get
(2) There isn't much worth dropping until much later. Even then nothing is really cost efficient to drop on most armies/players in small numbers compared to other races
(3) Every OL is a larva and contributes to your supply.
Banelings are awesome to drop. Doom drops are awesome. However, you won't really be doing either of those before the 10 minute mark.
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I think the upgrade is too slow. It means I have to go muta to counter cliff abuse.
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They aren't common because there's a combination of costs.
*-8 supply if they get shot down
*Zerg units in small numbers aren't that great unless drop Ultralisks or go carpet bombing with Banelings
*One larva
*It costs MUCH more than the drop ships of other races
*Other than functioning as a drop ship, Overlords don't provide other functions that are useful for battle. Medivacs can heal the drop party, and Warp Prisms can warp in units as well as function as a pylon, so you can go happy cannon rushing.
*THERE'S THE GODDAMN NYDUS NETWORK.
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